What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Facebook Whistleblower is a Trojan Horse for Censorship (1 Viewer)

Max Power

Footballguy
Democrats and Media Do Not Want to Weaken Facebook, Just Commandeer its Power to Censor

"Whistleblower" Frances Haugen is a vital media and political asset because she advances their quest for greater control over online political discourse.

Glenn Greenwald
 

Much is revealed by who is bestowed hero status by the corporate media. This week's anointed avatar of stunning courage is Frances Haugen, a former Facebook product manager being widely hailed as a "whistleblower” for providing internal corporate documents to the Wall Street Journal relating to the various harms which Facebook and its other platforms (Instagram and WhatsApp) are allegedly causing.

The social media giant hurts America and the world, this narrative maintains, by permitting misinformation to spread (presumably more so than cable outlets and mainstream newspapers do virtually every week); fostering body image neurosis in young girls through Instagram (presumably more so than fashion magazines, Hollywood and the music industry do with their glorification of young and perfectly-sculpted bodies); promoting polarizing political content in order to keep the citizenry enraged, balkanized and resentful and therefore more eager to stay engaged (presumably in contrast to corporate media outlets, which would never do such a thing); and, worst of all, by failing to sufficiently censor political content that contradicts liberal orthodoxies and diverges from decreed liberal Truth. On Tuesday, Haugen's star turn took her to Washington, where she spent the day testifying before the Senate about Facebook's dangerous refusal to censor even more content and ban even more users than they already do.

There is no doubt, at least to me, that Facebook and Google are both grave menaces. Through consolidation, mergers and purchases of any potential competitors, their power far exceeds what is compatible with a healthy democracy. A bipartisan consensus has emerged on the House Antitrust Committee that these two corporate giants — along with Amazon and Apple — are all classic monopolies in violation of long-standing but rarely enforced antitrust laws. Their control over multiple huge platforms that they purchased enables them to punish and even destroy competitors, as we saw when Apple, Google and Amazon united to remove Parler from the internet forty-eight hours after leading Democrats demanded that action, right as Parler became the most-downloaded app in the country, or as Google suppresses Rumble videos in its dominant search feature as punishment for competing with Google's YouTube platform. Facebook and Twitter both suppressed reporting on the authentic documents about Joe Biden's business activities reported by The New York Post just weeks before the 2020 election. These social media giants also united to effectively remove the sitting elected President of the United States from the internet, prompting grave warnings from leaders across the democratic world about how anti-democratic their consolidated censorship power has become.

But none of the swooning over this new Facebook heroine nor any of the other media assaults on Facebook have anything remotely to do with a concern over those genuine dangers. Congress has taken no steps to curb the influence of these Silicon Valley giants because Facebook and Google drown the establishment wings of both parties with enormous amounts of cash and pay well-connected lobbyists who are friends and former colleagues of key lawmakers to use their D.C. influence to block reform. With the exception of a few stalwarts, neither party's ruling wing really has any objection to this monopolistic power as long as it is exercised to advance their own interests.

And that is Facebook's only real political problem: not that they are too powerful but that they are not using that power to censor enough content from the internet that offends the sensibilities and beliefs of Democratic Party leaders and their liberal followers, who now control the White House, the entire executive branch and both houses of Congress. Haugen herself, now guided by long-time Obama operative Bill Burton, has made explicitly clear that her grievance with her former employer is its refusal to censor more of what she regards as “hate, violence and misinformation.” In a 60 Minutes interview on Sunday night, Haugen summarized her complaint about CEO Mark Zuckerberg this way: he “has allowed choices to be made where the side effects of those choices are that hateful and polarizing content gets more distribution and more reach." Haugen, gushed The New York Times’ censorship-desperate tech unit as she testified on Tuesday, is “calling for regulation of the technology and business model that amplifies hate and she’s not shy about comparing Facebook to tobacco.”

Agitating for more online censorship has been a leading priority for the Democratic Party ever since they blamed social media platforms (along with WikiLeaks, Russia, Jill Stein, James Comey, The New York Times, and Bernie Bros) for the 2016 defeat of the rightful heir to the White House throne, Hillary Clinton. And this craving for censorship has been elevated into an even more urgent priority for their corporate media allies, due to the same belief that Facebook helped elect Trump but also because free speech on social media prevents them from maintaining a stranglehold on the flow of information by allowing ordinary, uncredentialed serfs to challenge, question and dispute their decrees or build a large audience that they cannot control. Destroying alternatives to their failing platforms is thus a means of self-preservation: realizing that they cannot convince audiences to trust their work or pay attention to it, they seek instead to create captive audiences by destroying or at least controlling any competitors to their pieties.

As I have been reporting for more than a year, Democrats do not make any secret of their intent to co-opt Silicon Valley power to police political discourse and silence their enemies. Congressional Democrats have summoned the CEO's of Google, Facebook and Twitter four times in the last year to demand they censor more political speech. At the last Congressional inquisition in March, one Democrat after the next explicitly threatened the companies with legal and regulatory reprisals if they did not immediately start censoring more.

A Pew survey from August shows that Democrats now overwhelmingly support internet censorship not only by tech giants but also by the government which their party now controls. In the name of "restricting misinformation,” more than 3/4 of Democrats want tech companies "to restrict false info online, even if it limits freedom of information,” and just under 2/3 of Democrats want the U.S. Government to control that flow of information over the internet:

The prevailing pro-censorship mindset of the Democratic Party is reflected not only by that definitive polling data but also by the increasingly brash and explicit statements of their leaders. At the end of 2020, Sen. Ed Markey (D-MA), newly elected after young leftist activists worked tirelessly on his behalf to fend off a primary challenge from the more centrist Rep. Joseph Kennedy III (D-MA), told Facebook's Zuckerberg exactly what the Democratic Party wanted. In sum, they demand more censorship:

This, and this alone, is the sole reason why there is so much adoration being constructed around the cult of this new disgruntled Facebook employee. What she provides, above all else, is a telegenic and seemingly informed “insider” face to tell Americans that Facebook is destroying their country and their world by allowing too much content to go uncensored, by permitting too many conversations among ordinary people that are, in the immortal worlds of the NYT's tech reporter Taylor Lorenz, “unfettered.”

When Facebook, Google, Twitter and other Silicon Valley social media companies were created, they did not set out to become the nation's discourse police. Indeed, they affirmatively wanted not to do that. Their desire to avoid that role was due in part to the prevailing libertarian ideology of a free internet in that sub-culture. But it was also due to self-interest: the last thing social media companies wanted to be doing is looking for ways to remove and block people from using their product and, worse, inserting themselves into the middle of inflammatory political controversies. Corporations seek to avoid angering potential customers and users over political stances, not courting that anger.

This censorship role was not one they so much sought as one that was foisted on them. It was not really until the 2016 election, when Democrats were obsessed with blaming social media giants (and pretty much everyone else except themselves) for their humiliating defeat, that pressure began escalating on these executives to start deleting content liberals deemed dangerous or false and banning their adversaries from using the platforms at all. As it always does, the censorship began by targeting widely disliked figures — Milo Yiannopoulos, Alex Jones and others deemed “dangerous” — so that few complained (and those who did could be vilified as sympathizers of the early offenders). Once entrenched, the censorship net then predictably and rapidly spread inward (as it invariably does) to encompass all sorts of anti-establishment dissidents on the right, the left, and everything in between. And no matter how much it widens, the complaints that it is not enough intensify. For those with the mentality of a censor, there can never be enough repression of dissent. And this plot to escalate censorship pressures found the perfect vessel in this stunningly brave and noble Facebook heretic who emerged this week from the shadows into the glaring spotlight. She became a cudgel that Washington politicians and their media allies could use to beat Facebook into submission to their censorship demands.

In this dynamic we find what the tech and culture writer Curtis Yarvin calls "power leak.” This is a crucial concept for understanding how power is exercised in American oligarchy, and Yarvin's brilliant essay illuminates this reality as well as it can be described. Hyperbolically arguing that "Mark Zuckerberg has no power at all,” Yarvin points out that it may appear that the billionaire Facebook CEO is powerful because he can decide what will and will not be heard on the largest information distribution platform in the world. But in reality, Zuckerberg is no more powerful than the low-paid content moderators whom Facebook employs to hit the "delete” or "ban” button, since it is neither the Facebook moderators nor Zuckerberg himself who is truly making these decisions. They are just censoring as they are told, in obedience to rules handed down from on high. It is the corporate press and powerful Washington elites who are coercing Facebook and Google to censor in accordance with their wishes and ideology upon pain of punishment in the form of shame, stigma and even official legal and regulatory retaliation. Yarvin puts it this way:

However, if Zuck is subject to some kind of oligarchic power, he is in exactly the same position as his own moderators. He exercises power, but it is not his power, because it is not his will. The power does not flow from him; it flows through him. This is why we can say honestly and seriously that he has no power. It is not his, but someone else’s. . . .

Zuck doesn’t want to do any of this. Nor do his users particularly want it. Rather, he is doing it because he is under pressure from the press. Duh. He cannot even admit that he is under duress—or his Vietcong guards might just snap, and shoot him like the Western running-dog capitalist he is….

And what grants the press this terrifying power? The pure and beautiful power of the logos? What distinguishes a well-written poast, like this one, from an equally well-written Times op-ed? Nothing at all but prestige. In normal times, every sane CEO will comply unhesitatingly with the slightest whim of the legitimate press, just as they will comply unhesitatingly with a court order. That’s just how it is. To not call this power government is—just playing with words.

As I have written before, this problem — whereby the government coerces private actors to censor for them — is not one that Yarvin was the first to recognize. The U.S. Supreme Court has held, since at least 1963, that the First Amendment's "free speech” clause is violated when state officials issue enough threats and other forms of pressure that essentially leave the private actor with no real choice but to censor in accordance with the demands of state officials. Whether we are legally at the point where that constitutional line has been crossed by the increasingly blunt bullying tactics of Democratic lawmakers and executive branch officials is a question likely to be resolved in the courts. But whatever else is true, this pressure is very real and stark and reveals that the real goal of Democrats is not to weaken Facebook but to capture its vast power for their own nefarious ends.

There is another issue raised by this week's events that requires ample caution as well. The canonized Facebook whistleblower and her journalist supporters are claiming that what Facebook fears most is repeal or reform of Section 230, the legislative provision that provides immunity to social media companies for defamatory or other harmful material published by their users. That section means that if a Facebook user or YouTube host publishes legally actionable content, the social media companies themselves cannot be held liable. There may be ways to reform Section 230 that can reduce the incentive to impose censorship, such as denying that valuable protection to any platform that censors, instead making it available only to those who truly allow an unmoderated platform to thrive. But such a proposal has little support in Washington. What is far more likely is that Section 230 will be "modified” to impose greater content moderation obligations on all social media companies.

Far from threatening Facebook and Google, such a legal change could be the greatest gift one can give them, which is why their executives are often seen calling on Congress to regulate the social media industry. Any legal scheme that requires every post and comment to be moderated would demand enormous resources — gigantic teams of paid experts and consultants to assess "misinformation” and "hate speech” and veritable armies of employees to carry out their decrees. Only the established giants such as Facebook and Google would be able to comply with such a regimen, while other competitors — including large but still-smaller ones such as Twitter — would drown in those requirements. And still-smaller challengers to the hegemony of Facebook and Google, such as Substack and Rumble, could never survive. In other words, any attempt by Congress to impose greater content moderation obligations — which is exactly what they are threatening — would destroy whatever possibility remains for competitors to arise and would, in particular, destroy any platforms seeking to protect free discourse. That would be the consequence by design, which is why one should be very wary of any attempt to pretend that Facebook and Google fear such legislative adjustments.

There are real dangers posed by allowing companies such as Facebook and Google to amass the power they have now consolidated. But very little of the activism and anger from the media and Washington toward these companies is designed to fracture or limit that power. It is designed, instead, to transfer that power to other authorities who can then wield it for their own interests. The only thing more alarming than Facebook and Google controlling and policing our political discourse is allowing elites from one of the political parties in Washington and their corporate media outlets to assume the role of overseer, as they are absolutely committed to doing. Far from being some noble whistleblower, Frances Haugen is just their latest tool to exploit for their scheme to use the power of social media giants to control political discourse in accordance with their own views and interests.

 
That sure is a lot of words for "blue team bad".
Glenn Greenwald is a liberal. 

His concerns about passing greater content moderation on platforms should concern everyone.  

Maybe @Joe Bryant can shed a bit of light on the subject for me, but wouldn't message boards fall under the umbrella of regulating social media platforms? 

 
Glenn Greenwald is a liberal. 

His concerns about passing greater content moderation on platforms should concern everyone.  

Maybe @Joe Bryant can shed a bit of light on the subject for me, but wouldn't message boards fall under the umbrella of regulating social media platforms? 


Hi @Max Power  I"m sorry but I'm not much of an authority on the legal stuff there. I just happen to own a board that gives me heartache sometimes. ;)  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Glenn Greenwald is a liberal. 

His concerns about passing greater content moderation on platforms should concern everyone.  

Maybe @Joe Bryant can shed a bit of light on the subject for me, but wouldn't message boards fall under the umbrella of regulating social media platforms? 
Liberal?  He is a Fox News contributor and he claims to be banned by MSNBC.   If he hadn’t framed his argument around attacking a whistleblower, I may be interested. There are much more interesting, less polarizing political conversations happening around social media and exponential tech. 

 
Democrats and Media Do Not Want to Weaken Facebook, Just Commandeer its Power to Censor

"Whistleblower" Frances Haugen is a vital media and political asset because she advances their quest for greater control over online political discourse.

Glenn Greenwald
 
Spot on

 
Liberal?  He is a Fox News contributor and he claims to be banned by MSNBC.   If he hadn’t framed his argument around attacking a whistleblower, I may be interested. There are much more interesting, less polarizing political conversations happening around social media and exponential tech. 
Yes, he is pretty Liberal.  He is also anti-censorship. Do you not know who Glenn Greenwald is?

 
I think the political class is rightfully scared of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and others.   Their inability to control or leverage the power of these entities is both concerning and confounding to the political cadre.

Therefore, if it cannot be controlled or "influenced" it must be destroyed.

 
Yes, he is pretty Liberal.  He is also anti-censorship. Do you not know who Glenn Greenwald is?
Never heard of him. I googled him an hour ago. His quote from Fox News that popped up first was “The left thinks they are morally superior to us”. 

 
Never heard of him. I googled him an hour ago. His quote from Fox News that popped up first was “The left thinks they are morally superior to us”. 
His career has been left leaning and he was a co-founder of the Intercept (a left publication).  He had a falling out over Hunter Biden censorship and is now on substack (a company that could be hit with additional social media regulations).

The guy is very pro first ammendment and has been vocal about how the left supports censorship when it suits their needs.  He is correct there.  

 
The concern over this seems to be relatively bi-partisan, despite what that whack-a-doo GG thinks

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Liberal?  He is a Fox News contributor and he claims to be banned by MSNBC.   If he hadn’t framed his argument around attacking a whistleblower, I may be interested. There are much more interesting, less polarizing political conversations happening around social media and exponential tech. 


Liberal?  :lol:  

Well, maybe he was, once upon a time, but that was then and this is now.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-glenn-greenwald-the-new-master-of-right-wing-media

Is Glenn Greenwald the New Master of Right-Wing Media?

The leftist scribe has become “a practitioner of manufactured controversy” for outlets like Fox News, say his stunned former colleagues.  [...]

 
Last edited by a moderator:
So Glenn Greenwald is a conservative now?  The man in a same sex relationship, who is super pro animal rights, super anti-war, who as far as I can tell was a member of the left in good standing until the point where he crossed the DNC?

As far as the OP, people jumping on board with this whistleblower, can someone point to what problem they think the government will successfully solve with respect to Facebook?  It sounds like they want a department of misinformation fining companies who allow objectionable material - is this a mischaracterization?  Can they point to what safeguards can be put in place to prevent abuse by whomever is in charge of the government?

 
Facebook and all other media sites should be held accountable for libel and slander (not sure what a video is classified as) for anything posted/propagated on their site. 

 
So Glenn Greenwald is a conservative now?  The man in a same sex relationship, who is super pro animal rights, super anti-war, who as far as I can tell was a member of the left in good standing until the point where he crossed the DNC?

As far as the OP, people jumping on board with this whistleblower, can someone point to what problem they think the government will successfully solve with respect to Facebook?  It sounds like they want a department of misinformation fining companies who allow objectionable material - is this a mischaracterization?  Can they point to what safeguards can be put in place to prevent abuse by whomever is in charge of the government?
The government wants to absolutely control every piece of information we receive. It's scary because the media dn fact checkers are already out of control.  Twitter and Facebook have been good places to get both sides of the issues.  

 
The government wants to absolutely control every piece of information we receive. It's scary because the media dn fact checkers are already out of control.  Twitter and Facebook have been good places to get both sides of the issues.  
I agree.  The absolute collapse of support for free speech in a large portion of the US electorate has been shocking to me.  While I agree there are vile people on Facebook, Twitter, etc., I'm trying to understand how giving the government some sort of hammer is seen as a solution by so many, because it seems absolutely crazy to me.  But, presumably there are lots of people who are supporting this push for non-nefarious reasons, so I'm hoping some of them will chime in with their rationale.

 
I agree.  The absolute collapse of support for free speech in a large portion of the US electorate has been shocking to me.  While I agree there are vile people on Facebook, Twitter, etc., I'm trying to understand how giving the government some sort of hammer is seen as a solution by so many, because it seems absolutely crazy to me.  But, presumably there are lots of people who are supporting this push for non-nefarious reasons, so I'm hoping some of them will chime in with their rationale.
The whistleblower did address some of the mental and emotional damage platforms like Facebook and Instagram are causing children.  Specifically teenage girls. Facebook knows about this, they know they have kids on the platform but do nothing to stop it. I think this is an area we can get bipartisan support and should be a simple fix. The problem is this issue can bleed over to censorship.  

When they start discussing "misinformation", we get into the slippery slope.  There are two sides to every story and if we make facebook pick a side each time, it will be bad for society.   

 
Zuckerberg's comments on the whistleblower's claims

Many of the claims don’t make any sense. If we wanted to ignore research, why would we create an industry-leading research program to understand these important issues in the first place? If we didn’t care about fighting harmful content, then why would we employ so many more people dedicated to this than any other company in our space — even ones larger than us? If we wanted to hide our results, why would we have established an industry-leading standard for transparency and reporting on what we’re doing? And if social media were as responsible for polarizing society as some people claim, then why are we seeing polarization increase in the US while it stays flat or declines in many countries with just as heavy use of social media around the world?

 
Zuckerberg's comments on the whistleblower's claims


I think he did not hear the testimony clearly.  The individual acknowledges these elements. But further noted that when a decision was to be made the company deferred to profit over morality.  This is rather normal actually, but Facebook pretends to be something else, and hides its reality behind a facade of morality that increasingly seems to be untrue.

 
Never heard of him. I googled him an hour ago. His quote from Fox News that popped up first was “The left thinks they are morally superior to us”. 
You never heard of him, but are sure of his political motivations because he is a guest on Fox news.  

He is a first amendment proponent, an anti-war writer, married to a man, lives in Brazil where he's openly spoken out against Bolsanaro (who actually threatened to imprison him).  He spoken out against Trump but he made a fatal flaw when he ALSO criticized democrats and the Russia gate stuff.  He was fired from the intercept (a company he started) because he refused to not speak out on the Hunter Biden emails prior to the election.  Dude is a liberal.  Google more.

 
I think he did not hear the testimony clearly.  The individual acknowledges these elements. But further noted that when a decision was to be made the company deferred to profit over morality.  This is rather normal actually, but Facebook pretends to be something else, and hides its reality behind a facade of morality that increasingly seems to be untrue.
Sorry, I should have clarified.  Zuckerberg made these comments following 60 minutes and before the testimony.  

I agree with your assessment of Facebook, but does that aspect really rise to the level congress needs to be involved? A lot of companies put profit before morality. 

 
I agree.  The absolute collapse of support for free speech in a large portion of the US electorate has been shocking to me.  While I agree there are vile people on Facebook, Twitter, etc., I'm trying to understand how giving the government some sort of hammer is seen as a solution by so many, because it seems absolutely crazy to me.  But, presumably there are lots of people who are supporting this push for non-nefarious reasons, so I'm hoping some of them will chime in with their rationale.
At some point we stepped through the looking glass, where unfettered free speech became dangerous to society. This largely came, IMO, when social media platforms began being the driving force for worldwide discourse. In a vacuum, this is not really an issue. But now, when the same amount of informative weight is given to Dr. Fauci, Dr. Doolittle, and Dr. Phil, the news reported by the New York Times and NBC is considered to be just as, if not more, reliable as Gateway Pundit and Breitbart, there is no longer a trusted gatekeeper for "truth." Truth is now wherever you choose to find it. And if it ended there, it is not an ideal situation, but hopefully we can figure it out. Until something like a worldwide pandemic occurs. Then the purveyors of news and medical information become even more vital to a functional society, and unscrupulous people and businesses make the conscious decision to pander and trade in mis- and dis- information, creating a giant problem. 

I do not want the government to be choosing sides in this issue, and dictating what information can and cannot be disseminated. But who else is going to do it? If anything, over time, we have discovered that business is even more inclined than government to act in their own self interests, while disregarding societal costs associated with their actions. Facebook is just like Exxon, Monsanto, or Purdue Pharma. Push the profits up, no matter the collateral damage. Suppress information that can negatively affect the profits. There are no easy answers, and the public gets screwed no matter what.

 
Sorry, I should have clarified.  Zuckerberg made these comments following 60 minutes and before the testimony.  

I agree with your assessment of Facebook, but does that aspect really rise to the level congress needs to be involved? A lot of companies put profit before morality. 


Your question is such a good one, and I do not have the answer.   The opportunity to get ahead of these companies may have been missed early on. Today they are rather large, and their power is considerable.  Moreover, I get the sense that politicians still think they can control these companies, perhaps to their advantage, but I think that hubris is misplaced.

 
He's more mercenary than anything.   If once he was a liberal, he isn't anymore. 

His main goal now is self-promotion.
He is definitely acerbic and always has been.  He is still definitely a liberal-he speaks out against the left and the far left, many of which are illiberal.  This has forced him off of left leaning channels like MSNBC and CNN and onto Fox News.  That he can't find a home anywhere but conservative news is an indictment on the left's illiberal viewpoints-i.e. anyone that doesn't toe the codified line of thinking must be deplatformed-and is case in point of what he is speaking out against.  

 
He is definitely acerbic and always has been.  He is still definitely a liberal-he speaks out against the left and the far left, many of which are illiberal.  This has forced him off of left leaning channels like MSNBC and CNN and onto Fox News.  That he can't find a home anywhere but conservative news is an indictment on the left's illiberal viewpoints-i.e. anyone that doesn't toe the codified line of thinking must be deplatformed-and is case in point of what he is speaking out against.  
Or that Faux News has lower standards

 
Or that Faux News has lower standards
Well he is a pulitzer prize winning journalist that for almost two decades was regarded very highly and was a regular guest on the afforementioned left leaning news sites until he shifted his ire from criticizing GWB, the Iraq War and American Foreign policy in general to criticizing the democratic party and specifically the investigations into Russian intereference in the 2016 election.  

So, either the other news sites had "low standards" for the past two decades and suddenly raised them, or he is still a credible voice in political discussion, he just speaks uncomfortable truths about democrats and more specifically the left, necessitating his complete removal from the stations that carry water for the Democratic Party.  YMMV

 
I do not want the government to be choosing sides in this issue, and dictating what information can and cannot be disseminated. But who else is going to do it? If anything, over time, we have discovered that business is even more inclined than government to act in their own self interests, while disregarding societal costs associated with their actions. Facebook is just like Exxon, Monsanto, or Purdue Pharma. Push the profits up, no matter the collateral damage. Suppress information that can negatively affect the profits. There are no easy answers, and the public gets screwed no matter what.
It's definitely a problem and I'll admit I don't have a good answer to "a bunch of people get convinced of something patently untrue by a charlatan."  In my mind the only thing big business has going for it over the government is you can at least in theory vote with your money and bankrupt the worst offenders.  The problem with throwing our hands up and giving the power to the government is that once done it becomes not a question of if but when it will be abused.  If it requires an emergency, expect "emergency" to be defined down over time.  If an administration has the power to force companies to censor, expect it to morph from "really dangerous lies" to "information that makes us look bad".  The insidious thing is it doesn't even take some evil cabal for this to happen, most of the time the people that push us further down the slippery slope will think that they are doing things for the greater good.  And then one day you wake up and realize you have pravda.facebook banning inconvenient political candidates and you wonder wtf happened.  Just my two cents.

 
It's definitely a problem and I'll admit I don't have a good answer to "a bunch of people get convinced of something patently untrue by a charlatan."  In my mind the only thing big business has going for it over the government is you can at least in theory vote with your money and bankrupt the worst offenders.  The problem with throwing our hands up and giving the power to the government is that once done it becomes not a question of if but when it will be abused.  If it requires an emergency, expect "emergency" to be defined down over time.  If an administration has the power to force companies to censor, expect it to morph from "really dangerous lies" to "information that makes us look bad".  The insidious thing is it doesn't even take some evil cabal for this to happen, most of the time the people that push us further down the slippery slope will think that they are doing things for the greater good.  And then one day you wake up and realize you have pravda.facebook banning inconvenient political candidates and you wonder wtf happened.  Just my two cents.
I think this is where we reforms to Section 230 could be appropriate.  Government doesn't require the power to force Facetwittagram to censor information.  All government needs to do is implement sensible reforms such that Facebook et.al. can be held liable for certain actions or inactions in court.  This doesn't mean trash Section 230 altogether, but it likely does mean removing blanket immunity.

 
Well he is a pulitzer prize winning journalist that for almost two decades was regarded very highly and was a regular guest on the afforementioned left leaning news sites until he shifted his ire from criticizing GWB, the Iraq War and American Foreign policy in general to criticizing the democratic party and specifically the investigations into Russian intereference in the 2016 election.  

So, either the other news sites had "low standards" for the past two decades and suddenly raised them, or he is still a credible voice in political discussion, he just speaks uncomfortable truths about democrats and more specifically the left, necessitating his complete removal from the stations that carry water for the Democratic Party.  YMMV
He became obsessed with Snowden and government conspiracies and went off the rails.  He really hasn't ever represented liberal views as a whole that I'm aware of.  He was a first amendment litigator and anti-war, so he aligned with some liberal ideals.   But he's turned his entire focus toward attacking the media that he sees as not reporting what he wants reported.   This started with him trying to paint Snowden as a persecuted hero and it has continued ever since.  His first amendment views seem to run in one direction these days.   Freedom of speech includes private companies and individuals deciding not to amplify conspiracies and misinformation.   

His main focus is promoting himself.  

 
So Glenn Greenwald is a conservative now?  The man in a same sex relationship, who is super pro animal rights, super anti-war, who as far as I can tell was a member of the left in good standing until the point where he crossed the DNC?

As far as the OP, people jumping on board with this whistleblower, can someone point to what problem they think the government will successfully solve with respect to Facebook?  It sounds like they want a department of misinformation fining companies who allow objectionable material - is this a mischaracterization?  Can they point to what safeguards can be put in place to prevent abuse by whomever is in charge of the government?


I love that one of the pieces of evidence for him being a liberal is that he's gay. :lmao:

Kind of a conservative self-own there.

 
Well he is a pulitzer prize winning journalist that for almost two decades was regarded very highly and was a regular guest on the afforementioned left leaning news sites until he shifted his ire from criticizing GWB, the Iraq War and American Foreign policy in general to criticizing the democratic party and specifically the investigations into Russian intereference in the 2016 election.  


Yes, he's basically Alan Dershowitz. He used to lean left and wasn't insane. Now he leans right and is just different from how he used to be in general.

 
Being against an investigation into Russian interference seems a pretty big signal.  I mean...regardless of Trump involvement...it is quite clear there was interference and the investigation showed that.

 
Being against an investigation into Russian interference seems a pretty big signal.  I mean...regardless of Trump involvement...it is quite clear there was interference and the investigation showed that.
He's not against it.  He questioned the basis for starting the investigation initially and the resulting indictments-none of which were related to Trump or Trump associates colluding with Russia to interfere in the election-not meeting up with the drumbeat of media talking points for a year that insisted Trump would be indicted for treason. 

 
Yes, he's basically Alan Dershowitz. He used to lean left and wasn't insane. Now he leans right and is just different from how he used to be in general.
I'm not really interested in continually defending Greenwald as I don't know everything the guy stands for, but what right leaning viewpoints does he hold?  Apart from appearing on fox news.

 
He's not against it.  He questioned the basis for starting the investigation initially and the resulting indictments-none of which were related to Trump or Trump associates colluding with Russia to interfere in the election-not meeting up with the drumbeat of media talking points for a year that insisted Trump would be indicted for treason. 
Yeah...I don't believe there was ever a drumbeat from the media of an indictment on Trump especially not for treason.  So...yeah, really went out on a limb there.

Also...did he ever then agree with the basis once the IG investigations were complete?

 
Yeah...I don't believe there was ever a drumbeat from the media of an indictment on Trump especially not for treason.  So...yeah, really went out on a limb there.

Also...did he ever then agree with the basis once the IG investigations were complete?
Yeah, I'm not going to go searching for 500 clips, but there were plenty of people brought on saying exactly that.  This guy was brought on many times on Lawrence Odonnell and Rachel Maddow as were others that parroted the same talking point.  

Former NSA claims Trump will Die in Jail

You saying there was no drumbeat from the media that indictments were coming for Trump is.. really something.

 
I'm not really interested in continually defending Greenwald as I don't know everything the guy stands for, but what right leaning viewpoints does he hold?  Apart from appearing on fox news.
It's almost like we can see how the party line narrative plays out in this exact thread. Speak against the party and you're out. Next it's a denial that a party line narrative exists. 

 
Not worth a big back and forth.  But claiming a drumbeat for treason is also really something.  Could it have happened from the fringes...probably so.  No more so than what is likely out there now on the fringe right about Biden.

 
I'm not really interested in continually defending Greenwald as I don't know everything the guy stands for, but what right leaning viewpoints does he hold?  Apart from appearing on fox news.
A better question is what are right leaning viewpoints these days? The party has gone all in on Trump and traditional conservative values are an afterthought. Aligning with Trump is a better indication of ‘right leaning’ these days.

 
Not worth a big back and forth.  But claiming a drumbeat for treason is also really something.  Could it have happened from the fringes...probably so.  No more so than what is likely out there now on the fringe right about Biden.
Maddow, Lawrence Odonnel, Joy Reid, everyone on CNN are not fringe and all of them-all of them-talked about and had people on their shows talk about the inevitability of Trump being indicted.  Some going so far as to suggest he'll be led out in hadcuffs.  

I don't know what the fringe right is, but conservative outlets have been beating the drum that Biden is weak on the border, completely effed up Afganistan, and seems like he's lost out there.  You can disagree on any of those points, but those are not nearly the same conspiratorial and frankly assinine predictions that were made about Trump.  Not even close.  

 
A better question is what are right leaning viewpoints these days? The party has gone all in on Trump and traditional conservative values are an afterthought. Aligning with Trump is a better indication of ‘right leaning’ these days.
But Greenwald doesn't 'align' with Trump, so my question still stands.  What right-leaning viewpoints does Greenwald espouse?  

 
But Greenwald doesn't 'align' with Trump, so my question still stands.  What right-leaning viewpoints does Greenwald espouse?  
Party lines are blurred at this point. Would you consider the guys from the Lincoln Project to be ‘right’? They may still have the conservative beliefs but they don’t line up with the current ‘right’. I’d put Greenwald in that same category.

 
I love that one of the pieces of evidence for him being a liberal is that he's gay. :lmao:

Kind of a conservative self-own there.
Let me ask you a question.  Do you think a gay man is more likely to be a liberal or a conservative?  Given your answer, does him being gay make him more or less likely to be liberal?  You're reading waaaay too much into this.  Substitute single woman, church-going man, or incel as other things that may shift probabilities, or just ignore that portion altogether.  If you see a guy with a pickup truck with an American flag, how does that piece of evidence affect your view of his potential political leanings?  And no, I'm not comparing someone born sexual tendencies with their consumer habits either, it's an example.

 
Party lines are blurred at this point. Would you consider the guys from the Lincoln Project to be ‘right’? They may still have the conservative beliefs but they don’t line up with the current ‘right’. I’d put Greenwald in that same category.
ok I'll ask you the same thing.  What traditionally conservative beliefs does Greenwald have?  Name two or three.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top