For those that didnt see it, who knew this was legal: https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/seahawks-double-punt-rule/1515zabeb2bo4199qjriznvz8e?fbclid=IwAR3VnXekHkzLvHgwiWjDRXY-hFKc-9SYY06j9nnpEJoiLmkyjLOkNgLUrJE My question is how is your league handling this one if you get a point for a blocked kick? First Rtsports awarded me a point for a blocked kick then a few minutes later it was gone.
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Seattle double punt (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter da_budman
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Houston turmOiler
Footballguy
They did not credit the Rams with a blocked kick in my league. Bizarre, but since the end result was still a punt, I'm good with it
VikingFrog
Footballguy
I am just basing this off memory from previous years. But I believe a blocked kick has to end up behind the line of scrimmage. Whether the offense or defense recovers it.
Since the end result of the play did not end up behind the line of scrimmage it was not technically a blocked kick by rule.
Same situation would apply if the kick was blocked and the kicking team recovered and ran it for a first down. Or the kick was blocked/tipped and it scuttled forward beyond the line of scrimmage.
Full disclosure… I am not Mike Perrier and am only guessing on 8 beer memory.
Since the end result of the play did not end up behind the line of scrimmage it was not technically a blocked kick by rule.
Same situation would apply if the kick was blocked and the kicking team recovered and ran it for a first down. Or the kick was blocked/tipped and it scuttled forward beyond the line of scrimmage.
Full disclosure… I am not Mike Perrier and am only guessing on 8 beer memory.
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ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
If a punt is partially blocked but still travels beyond the LOS, it does not count as a blocked kick. Since the end result of that play was a 68 yard punt, I would imagine it also would not count as a block
VikingFrog
Footballguy
In my own head, I’m comparing it to a fumble recovered by the offense.
Although it’s obvious it was a blocked kick.
socrates
Footballguy
Interesting discussion. The punt was clearly blocked and landed behind the line of scrimmage. I would contend that should qualify as a blocked punt. If a team intercepts the ball then subsequently fumbles it back to the offense, does it still count as a turnover for fantasy points?
I thought the punter made a brilliant move. Even if the punt had been brought back, penalized ten yards and they had to replay fourth down, the result was going to be far better than turning it over on downs.
I thought the punter made a brilliant move. Even if the punt had been brought back, penalized ten yards and they had to replay fourth down, the result was going to be far better than turning it over on downs.
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
For the scoring, it's important to remember the final result is what gets logged in the stats. It's no different than watching a sack get wiped out by a DPI.
I was thinking the same: re-kicking it would end in a penalty and replay the down. Crazy play, and fun to watch with such an odd aftermath/ruling.
Interesting side note is punter Michael Dickson is Australian and played Australian rules football as a youth. Even as I was watching that second kick on the run, I was thinking, "this looks like a kick from Australian rules football." Looks like his unique instincts came in handy this time.
Not pertinent to the rules discussion of course; just thought was an interesting side note..
Not pertinent to the rules discussion of course; just thought was an interesting side note..
daveR
Footballguy
IIRC, you can punt anytime, any place. (But I might be wrong. Maybe wrong. I can't imagine punting on a kick return being legal...)
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
I don't believe he was past the LOS. Just like on a pass, if any part of the body is behind or on the LOS, the play is legal. The play started at the 21 yard line. He starts his kicking motion the second time at the 20 yard line. Even if we say he kicked the ball from the 21 yard line, it appears at worse he would be considered even with the line of scrimmage.
LINK
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Technically since the 2nd punt was beyond the LOS, it should have been a penalty & re-kick.
They blew it, and the Rams got jobbed on that call.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
His plant leg on the kick was at least a full yard past the LOS. They showed it in slow motion. The LOS was the 21, and he was at the 21 when his foot made contact with the ball.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Past the LOS or not, he made an incredible 1-handed running scoop to pick up that ball.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
You can't complete a kick past the LOS. On the play in question, any kick that does not cross the line of scrimmage is treated the same as if it was a fumble. So the offense once recovered behind the LOS, the kicking team can try another kick, run, or pass. But once a kicker strikes the ball and it crosses the LOS, there is a change of possession (so the kicking team could not recover it).
Anarchy99
Footballguy
As already posted, if any part of his body is on or behind the LOS, the play would be legal. At the time he started to kick, he was at the 20 yard line. If this got challenged, I don't see how they would have reversed the call. IMO, he was not clearly past the LOS.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
They showed it in slow motion during the game after the play.
the Los wasn’t the 21, it was the 20. He kicked it at the 21. It was pretty obvious he was past the LOS, and all 3 of Aikman, Buck & the rules dude said he was clearly past it. He planted his leg at the 21 & made the kick.
You’d said it was analogous to the passing rules - in those rules it’s not when the pass is started. It’s when the ball leaves the QBs hand, if any part of him is behind the line it’s ok.
He started his motion at the 20, sure, but When the kick left his foot he was at the 21, and even a little further. No part of him was at the 20.
This is the only thing that matters.
Does anyone remember the play last year when Tom Brady passed the ball twice? First pass was blocked and he caught it, then threw it 15 yards down the field. It counted as a single pass for 15 yards, instead of two pass attempts, two completions, and a reception for Brady.
Replays show the blue line of scrimmage as the 21, and I realize this is not official. The referee on the sideline watching the play was straddling the 21 from before the time the ball was snapped, and he never moved.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Do we really want to try to normalize things by what penalties are called on Tom Brady?
I’m just sayin - they might have to low-key re-write the entire rule book.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Was just going to point his out. On the replay I linked, the blue line is smack dab on the 21 yard line (granted, not official). The official is right on the LOS a few feet from the ball with a clear view right in front of him. It's his call to make if the player is past the LOS.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Ok. Not my hill to die on, I just recall the booth & the NFL rules guy making a big deal of it saying it was the 20.
Can we all agree the play was weird as heck?
Officials threw a flag on the play, and for some insane reason the defense declined the penalty.Do we really want to try to normalize things by what penalties are called on Tom Brady?
I’m just sayin - they might have to low-key re-write the entire rule book.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
To reiterate, any play on offense that does not cross the LOS is not considered a play and is considered a live ball. Upon regaining possession behind the LOS, the offense has the same options at their disposal . . . run, pass, or kick . . . and the original outcome is negated and does not count for anything. In Brady's case, his "reception" doesn't count. In the play last night, the "block" doesn't count.Do we really want to try to normalize things by what penalties are called on Tom Brady?
I’m just sayin - they might have to low-key re-write the entire rule book.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That may have been the weirdest part.
i *think* they thought if they declined it, the block would stand and the ball would be at the Seattle ~25-Ish.
I was referring to the Brady play. He was flagged for throwing an illegal forward pass on the 2nd throw.
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
It was definitely right at the LOS. Close, and one of those calls that could go either way and then be near impossible to overturn on challenge.
NFL YouTube video.
Blue line (unofficial) goes right across the hash mark at the 21. The LOS marker at the bottom of the screen is approximately at the 21, though tough to gauge b/c it's off the screen and at the far end of the wide, white sideline border. The ref at the bottom of the screen looks like he's slightly shy of the 21. The ref at the top looks to be at the 21. The hands for all the defensive players look to be right at the 21.
You can pause the video as the kicker punts it the second time and see his foot is right at the 21 but not on a hash mark - which would have made it really easy to FMQB the call.
NFL YouTube video.
Blue line (unofficial) goes right across the hash mark at the 21. The LOS marker at the bottom of the screen is approximately at the 21, though tough to gauge b/c it's off the screen and at the far end of the wide, white sideline border. The ref at the bottom of the screen looks like he's slightly shy of the 21. The ref at the top looks to be at the 21. The hands for all the defensive players look to be right at the 21.
You can pause the video as the kicker punts it the second time and see his foot is right at the 21 but not on a hash mark - which would have made it really easy to FMQB the call.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I remember the refs explanation was that the kicker's "heel" was behind the LOS -- they had not looked at any replay at this point. I guess it was just what the ref saw on field...
When I go back and look at that replay, assuming that the blue line was LOS, it looks "too close to call" one way or another. That heel looks smack dab on the 21. WHich means, maybe he was over, maybe he wasn't. But ref is not out there measuring centimeters on the field, you know?
This is like any "bang bang" play that is too close to call. Ref does the best job he or she can and everyone argues about it. But based on the rules, it doesn't seem to be clear cut screw job by the refs.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
They did not decline. Ref clearly said there was no foul on the play.
I am a little surprised McVay didn’t challenge just because the payoff in terms of field position would have been so huge. But I’m not at all sure he would have won the challenge.
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
NFL Gamebook has the LOS as the 21.
Seattle Seahawks at 4:46
1-10-SEA 25 (4:46) A.Collins left guard to SEA 29 for 4 yards (K.Young; J.Williams).
2-6-SEA 29 (4:18) (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass short left to C.Parkinson to SEA 30 for 1 yard (J.Ramsey, T.Lewis).
3-5-SEA 30 (3:36) (Shotgun) R.Wilson sacked at SEA 21 for -9 yards (A.Donald).
4-14-SEA 21 (3:00) M.Dickson punts 68 yards to LA 11, Center-T.Ott, downed by SEA-U.Amadi
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
Video shows ~21, as well. Go back a few posts. I linked the video and noted where the lines, markers, and refs appear to be set.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
to be fair.....I don't think this has ever really happened before....I mean, maybe it has at some juco or something in Kansas sometime.....or on a Saturday morning at the park down the road from you with 12 year olds....I've watched and officiated thousands of games......never seen this....immediate thought was "that can't be legal"....but then as the officials process it and start pulling back the layers from other concepts (behind line of scrimmage, etc) they arrived at the proper conclusion....we give officials a ton of crap when they screw things up....and this could have been a real easy one to mess up.....they got together and got it right.....props to them...
Marauder
Footballguy
Just as an aside, whether he was past the LOS when he punted the ball the second time or not, it was still a really smart play by the punter. If I understand the rules correctly, even if they call a penalty, the result is they re-kick it from 10 yards back but that's still a way better result than him getting tackled and turning it over on downs.
wlwiles
Footballguy
I usually like Pereira, but it was really funny to watch him go from "uhh, yeahh, you definitely can't do that" when it happened, to then after the ref said no penalty Mike starts "uhh, well, there was a rule change this year, I'll have to go re-read the rule, uhh, umm..."jobarules said:
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Marauder said:
Right. And there are plenty of opportunities for this same thing all over the field that guys pass up on all the time. I cringe every time I see a WR take a reverse and get strung out of bounds way behind the LoS for a 10-15 yard loss when he could have just thrown the ball out of bounds. The explanation for why he didn't is often because then he would get an illegal man downfield penalty since it's a running play and the O-line is pushing downfield. But why would that stop him when illegal man downfield is 5 yards and replay the down, while just running out of bounds is a 10-15 yard loss and you lose the down.
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Yeah, I guess that depends on whether the TV graphic was correct or incorrect. The TV graphic shows a blue line on the 21; I'm just assuming that's what it was. But I'm not saying I'm correct. If there is evidence or record that the LOS was the 20 then that changes things yeah.JohnnyU said:
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Everything points to it being the 21. TV graphic was the 21. Official standing on the 21. Statbook says play started from the 21. It was 4th and 14 on a drive that started after a touchback (on the 25).
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I joked in the game thread that it really did feel like the alley-oop scene in "Semi-Pro", but maybe it wasn't a joke after all. As in the movie, no one had any idea what to do, but it certainly felt like he must have committed a penalty.Stinkin Ref said:
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
That seemed super weird. In general, you can't deliberately commit a penalty to avoid a bad outcome. There is the scenario @FreeBaGeLdescribes, and there's also the one where the snap sails over the QB/punter's head into the end zone, and he kicks it out of bounds to prevent a defensive TD (I've always found it weird that the punishment for that penalty -- a safety -- is exactly the outcome the QB was trying to achieve).Marauder said:
But I don't understand why an illegal kick wouldn't be the same as an illegal forward pass. When a team is trying to pull of a Miami Miracle style play at the end of a game, they can't use the penalty to get themselves another shot. The ball is dead and the penalty is assessed at the spot of the foul. That would seem to be the obvious solution here as well. Let's say Dickson is about to get tackled at the 25 and he tries to punt. Now, not only does he not benefit from his attempt to cheat, the Rams get the ball at the 15 instead.
Of course, the likelihood of a play like this happening again anytime soon have got to be slim to none, so probably not a huge worry. Think about the stars that had to align for Dickson to be able to pull that off. I bet we live the rest of our lives and never see anything like it.
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
It does look like the longsnapper is short of the 21 with the ball. Most plays, however, the ball is placed by the ref and the C / LS will move it slightly as they grip it. Could just be that. Game of inches, and all...
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