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Lien on property, any advice? (1 Viewer)

ghostguy123

ghostguy123

Footballguy
Currently there is no lien, but a mechanics lien has been threatened.  Here's the story:

I was supposed to get some flooring work done on my rental property.  My tenant agreed to pay half.  Great.  We signed an agreement.

So the tenant went with a company, I agreed, tenant paid the company.  In turn I will forgive three months rent.  All good so far.

Company was supposed to come thursday, they did not.  They came friday but not till 1pm, two guys worked two hours.  They tore up the downstairs carpet and kitchen linoleum, then left at 3pm.  Apparently while they were there they were a bit rude, and then stated they would come back monday.   My tenant found this to be unacceptable since they had agreed to complete the job thursday and friday.  Now my tenant would have to keep all his stuff in the garage for the weekend???

So I spoke to the flooring guy, he begrudgingly agreed to come saturday between 8-9 and finish monday.  My tenant begrudgingly agreed.

Saturday comes, 10pm and no flooring guy.  Tenant tells me NO to this company.  I agree.  I text the flooring guy.  He is pissed and threatens a mechanics lien  and to file a police report for stolen goods (they had dropped off about 20 boxes of flooring friday).

I reply and state that I will return all of the flooring to him and pay for his services to this point.

His reply.........called my tenants racist stating they dont want a black man working for them.  

So here we are.  I have filed a police report myself already showing the text exchange that I am will to take back the product and pay for the work done.   Just felt like getting a jump on that.

I also sent another message to their facebook page with the same offer.  No reply to this point.

Any advice on any of this so far? I do not want these people coming to my property to retrieve the flooring.  Is it prudent to take it to their store and document with photos or whatever?  

How do I pay him?  Do I have him sign an agreement to not place a lien once payment is made.

This all seems super dumb.  This guy sucks.  Turns out he does suck.  Even the officer I filed with said he had a bad experience with this company.   Lovely.

TIA

 
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ghostguy123 said:
I was supposed to get some flooring work done on my rental property.  My tenant agreed to pay half.  Great.  We signed an agreement.

So the tenant went with a company, I agreed, tenant paid the company.  In turn I will forgive three months rent.  All good so far.
Click to expand...


:no:

I don't have a great answer for what to do at this point, but it was not all good so far.  This sounds like a recipe for a disaster.  And the recipe put out exactly that result.

Your home, you're the owner and landlord, you order and take care of the work.  You don't let a tenant choose a company or pay for part of repairs or anything like that.  They have no investment in the property and little incentive to get it done right or manage this. 

Your tenants don't get to choose who works on your home.  If you want to stick with the original workers, then find a mutually agreed upon schedule and let them come finish.  Do you at least have a contract signed with them for the scope of work?  What does it say in terms of time of completion? 

Either way, remove the tenants from the equation at this point.  Get the work done on your own dime (as it should have been from the beginning).  Your tenant has to make the place available to be worked on if it's necessary.  And if you need to, credit them rent to make it better on their end so you can own the mistake from the beginning.

Good luck, sounds like a huge headache.

 
Mechanics Liens don’t mean a lot unless they follow thru, at least in my state. They are more of a placeholder 

 
Have the company sign a release of lien when you're handing over the materials and money. There are a bunch on-line. Make sure it is a Final ROL, not a partial. If you know someone who is a notary, take them with you to fully execute it. Take a picture of the fully-executed lien release and leave him the original.

 
Uruk-Hai said:
Have the company sign a release of lien when you're handing over the materials and money. There are a bunch on-line. Make sure it is a Final ROL, not a partial. If you know someone who is a notary, take them with you to fully execute it. Take a picture of the fully-executed lien release and leave him the original.
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eta: ROLs are standard whenever money (& material, in this case) is changing hands for services in construction. I have to sign them for every payment I receive.

 
Uruk-Hai said:
Have the company sign a release of lien when you're handing over the materials and money. There are a bunch on-line. Make sure it is a Final ROL, not a partial. If you know someone who is a notary, take them with you to fully execute it. Take a picture of the fully-executed lien release and leave him the original.
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This.  Final / Unconditional Waiver.  Once you've paid up, make them sign and notarize.

 
gianmarco said:
Your home, you're the owner and landlord, you order and take care of the work.  You don't let a tenant choose a company or pay for part of repairs or anything like that.  They have no investment in the property and little incentive to get it done right or manage this. 

Your tenants don't get to choose who works on your home. 
Click to expand...
This x 1000000000.

So the tenant gets three months off rent for something he will likely bail on in the next year?  That makes zero sense to me as a landlord. Tenant pays in full. I take 100% of the write off for the work done.

 
Getzlaf15 said:
This x 1000000000.

So the tenant gets three months off rent for something he will likely bail on in the next year?  That makes zero sense to me as a landlord. Tenant pays in full. I take 100% of the write off for the work done.
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I'm sure I'm misreading this, but are you saying you want the tenant to pay for the flooring work in full? Or just pay their rent in full, and keep out of home improvements (as Gian posted)?

 
Getzlaf15 said:
This x 1000000000.

So the tenant gets three months off rent for something he will likely bail on in the next year?  That makes zero sense to me as a landlord. Tenant pays in full. I take 100% of the write off for the work done.
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Question.  Why does this make zero sense when the tenant is paying half the cost?

Also, I agreed to the material and the company.  I didnt have reason to believe at the time that this company was this bad.  They have been in business in my town for decades, have had work done from them in years past, and had no worries.  Oops.

Also, not trying to turn this into a landlord/tenant issue here.  Thst could be another topic.

Just trying to go about this the best way returning the materials to the company and paying for the work done.

We will see tomorrow how cooperative the company is with this.

 
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Uruk-Hai said:
Have the company sign a release of lien when you're handing over the materials and money. There are a bunch on-line. Make sure it is a Final ROL, not a partial. If you know someone who is a notary, take them with you to fully execute it. Take a picture of the fully-executed lien release and leave him the original.
Click to expand...
What do I do if they do not agree to any of this and dont cooperate?

 
ghostguy123 said:
What do I do if they do not agree to any of this and dont cooperate?
Click to expand...


You have to make signing a lien waiver part of your deal - agreed in advance - so when you show up they sign and get their stuff back.  So far, the lien threat is pretty empty.  As someone noted previously, threatening to file a lien is common, while actually carrying through with it is much less common.  In my state there are formal steps the contractor has to follow to file a lien - they can't just file it after the fact because they have a disagreement on payment if they haven't taken the formal steps to preserve that right. Also, there are some fairly severe statutory penalties for filing a lien in bad faith or frivolously. If they actually file one, then I think its lawyer time - you want to contest it immediately.

 
ghostguy123 said:
Question.  Why does this make zero sense when the tenant is paying half the cost?

Also, I agreed to the material and the company.  I didnt have reason to believe at the time that this company was this bad.  They have been in business in my town for decades, have had work done from them in years past, and had no worries.  Oops.

Also, not trying to turn this into a landlord/tenant issue here.  Thst could be another topic.

Just trying to go about this the best way returning the materials to the company and paying for the work done.

We will see tomorrow how cooperative the company is with this.
Click to expand...
The tenant should not be paying half the cost.  That's the original problem here.  They should never be paying for any repairs or work done to your home, ever.  You should be contracting it yourself, paying for it yourself, and deducting it on your taxes yourself.  The only involvement with the tenant is the scheduling of the work.  Everything else is directed to you. 

 
gianmarco said:
The tenant should not be paying half the cost.  That's the original problem here.  They should never be paying for any repairs or work done to your home, ever.  You should be contracting it yourself, paying for it yourself, and deducting it on your taxes yourself.  The only involvement with the tenant is the scheduling of the work.  Everything else is directed to you. 
Click to expand...
Gotcha.

The places badly needs flooring.  The tenant approached me and offered to pay half.  

I suppose I can see why that can turn into a problem

 
CletiusMaximus said:
You have to make signing a lien waiver part of your deal - agreed in advance - so when you show up they sign and get their stuff back.  So far, the lien threat is pretty empty.  As someone noted previously, threatening to file a lien is common, while actually carrying through with it is much less common.  In my state there are formal steps the contractor has to follow to file a lien - they can't just file it after the fact because they have a disagreement on payment if they haven't taken the formal steps to preserve that right. Also, there are some fairly severe statutory penalties for filing a lien in bad faith or frivolously. If they actually file one, then I think its lawyer time - you want to contest it immediately.
Click to expand...
I understand that.  My question is, what do I do if they dont accept payment and dont even let me bring back the materials?

 
gianmarco said:
The tenant should not be paying half the cost.  That's the original problem here.  They should never be paying for any repairs or work done to your home, ever.  You should be contracting it yourself, paying for it yourself, and deducting it on your taxes yourself.  The only involvement with the tenant is the scheduling of the work.  Everything else is directed to you. 
Click to expand...
The tentant paying the contractor has nothing to do with the issue at hand.  The company (agreed to by the owner as he said he used them before) is the only entity at fault in this story.  

Now not having a tenant pay the contractor is a completely different subject/issue but it has nothing to do with why the contractor is not performing the work.  

 
ghostguy123 said:
I understand that.  My question is, what do I do if they dont accept payment and dont even let me bring back the materials?
Click to expand...
You just document their refusal. 

Get it in writing. Send an email and/or letter offering the flooring back and money for services already rendered. If they refuse, they will never be able to actually enforce any kind of lien.

 
ghostguy123 said:
Gotcha.

The places badly needs flooring.  The tenant approached me and offered to pay half.  

I suppose I can see why that can turn into a problem
Click to expand...
This could have been much worse between you and the tenant. Luckily this is just an issue with the contractor and you can fix and address that.

If it's a long term tenant, you can maybe discuss floor options that they might like as long as you're ok with it as well. That's as far as I'd get them involved. 

Your best bet now is to try and be as amicable as possible with the flooring company. Go there in person if you need. Offer to either return the flooring or pay for the cost if you can still use it and wipe your hands clean. If they refuse, they can't come back and claim injury.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I would say if they do that you've got them by the balls.  You have their money. You have their stuff. They have an empty threat.
Click to expand...
As of now I have texted an offer to return the material and pay for services.

I also sent them a message on their facebook page.

I currently have no reply, except for their original reply of calling my tenant racist.  They didn't accept or refuse the offer, though I would suppose that could be considered a refusal.

Question.  If I receive no reply, is it still wise to return all the material to their store?  If they refuse to accept it, how can I document that for proof?  How can I prove I brought the material to the store and tried to return it?  A witness?  If so who?

 
gianmarco said:
This could have been much worse between you and the tenant. Luckily this is just an issue with the contractor and you can fix and address that.

If it's a long term tenant, you can maybe discuss floor options that they might like as long as you're ok with it as well. That's as far as I'd get them involved. 

Your best bet now is to try and be as amicable as possible with the flooring company. Go there in person if you need. Offer to either return the flooring or pay for the cost if you can still use it and wipe your hands clean. If they refuse, they can't come back and claim injury.
Click to expand...
Yes long term tenant.  He has been their 5 years now and plans to stay longer obviously.  

Obviously good advice for future projects.

 
ghostguy123 said:
As of now I have texted an offer to return the material and pay for services.

I also sent them a message on their facebook page.

I currently have no reply, except for their original reply of calling my tenant racist.  They didn't accept or refuse the offer, though I would suppose that could be considered a refusal.

Question.  If I receive no reply, is it still wise to return all the material to their store?  If they refuse to accept it, how can I document that for proof?  How can I prove I brought the material to the store and tried to return it?  A witness?  If so who?
Click to expand...
I would not return anything until they agree and sign off.

I'd give it at least a week. If not, then hire someone else to install it. At that point, offer to pay for the flooring supplies, again, once they agree to sign off.

 
Mile High said:
Put it on the floor. 
Click to expand...
Yeah no kidding. If the tenant already paid half that flooring is paid for and belongs to the tenant/landlord. 

That flooring guy really has no leg to stand on regarding the lien. In my opinion.

 
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gianmarco said:
I would not return anything until they agree and sign off.

I'd give it at least a week. If not, then hire someone else to install it. At that point, offer to pay for the flooring supplies, again, once they agree to sign off.
Click to expand...
Their isnt even enough material to do the job.  When the guy was there he said he didnt know about the stairs

 
My offer to return the flooring will not require him to reverse any payments.  The tenant has already revered the payment.

Therefore, the materials are the property of the store.  I want to give them back their flooring.  

 
stop using social media as your medium of communication.  send an email.  you need more than a text or a facebook message.  do what you are currently doing.  don't give them anything, until they sign off on it.  

 
DA RAIDERS said:
stop using social media as your medium of communication.  send an email.  you need more than a text or a facebook message.  do what you are currently doing.  don't give them anything, until they sign off on it.  
Click to expand...
They actually dont have an email address............

 
DA RAIDERS said:
ooof
Click to expand...
Yeah I found that out a couple days ago when I was trying to send them an email.

So weird.  This place has been in business for as long as I can remember.  20+ years.

Zero chance they have been like this or no chance.  Maybe selling drugs and laundering money?

 
ghostguy123 said:
They actually dont have an email address............
Click to expand...


Then send a certified letter.  The USPS still exists.  You want to have a formal, documented offer so any attempt at a lien is immediately done in bad faith.

 
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I just went to the store.  The owner wasnt there but the lady up front called him.

He said he does not want the flooring material back and kicked me out of the store.

I tried to get the lady to give me something in writing saying that.  She would not.

 
ghostguy123 said:
I just went to the store.  The owner wasnt there but the lady up front called him.

He said he does not want the flooring material back and kicked me out of the store.

I tried to get the lady to give me something in writing saying that.  She would not.
Click to expand...
I would contact the police at that point and have a quick report that you were thrown out of the store.  That seems unreasonable on their end.  Keep the flooring and do not submit any payment.  I don't see how they would even come close to putting any kind of lien with that behavior. 

In addition, send something in writing that you offered to compensate for work and for services rendered and that you are still willing to do so but they will need to reach out to you to come to a resolution as attempts on your end have been met with resistance.

 
ghostguy123 said:
The tenant reversed payment
Click to expand...
Ouch. And that is one example of how your arrangement has now created bigger issues. At least this puts you in a position where you can cut the tenant out of the equation of the project and do it the right way.

Agreed with the folks saying you should send a certified letter documenting the sequence of events and your offer to return the supplies and pay for the labor already done. At that point he has no grounds to stand on. What’s he going to tell a judge: “Yeah, we didn’t meet the required schedule and refused to accept the supplies back and payment for the completed labor but want paid in full even though we broke the contract”? No judge is going to find in their favor.

I’m not a lawyer and don’t know the laws on this, but I would be tempted to set a deadline for their acceptance of the return of the materials and let them know that after that deadline I will start charging them X dollars per week/month/whatever and will deduct that amount from what is owed on the labor. If the amount on the labor is reduced to zero, the storage fee will be applied to the supplies and the supplies sold if the storage fee exceeds the cost of the supplies. Last thing you want is to be stuck holding this guy’s flooring for the next 9 months while he fights you.

 
I'd contact the Better Business Bureau.  Then you'll have some correspondence to fall back on.  They reach out to the company formally.

 
ghostguy123 said:
The tenant reversed payment
Click to expand...
Well, now we know why he is pissed as hell and threw you out of his store.  He's out a ton for materials and a bunch of labor.

This whole thing was handled terribly obviously. Maybe figure out how much the materials cost (price it out online or wherever) and then send him a certified letter and a check to cover the materials and a days worth of labor (you'll have to estimate this obviously).

Apologize in the letter for your tenants behavior. 

If he cashes the check it's basically an admission that things are ok and you then have recourse for a judge if this guy pulls anything. In any event make copies of everything. 

Just my opinion.

 
ChiefD said:
Well, now we know why he is pissed as hell and threw you out of his store.  He's out a ton for materials and a bunch of labor.

This whole thing was handled terribly obviously. Maybe figure out how much the materials cost (price it out online or wherever) and then send him a certified letter and a check to cover the materials and a days worth of labor (you'll have to estimate this obviously).

Apologize in the letter for your tenants behavior. 

If he cashes the check it's basically an admission that things are ok and you then have recourse for a judge if this guy pulls anything. In any event make copies of everything. 

Just my opinion.
Click to expand...
You mean the labor that he didnt show up for three days in a row??  In three days, he did 2 hours of work. 

He isnt out the material.  He refused to come get it.  It's not even all the right material anyway.  He can return it himself.   Why would I pay him for material when it isnt even all the material we need?

He was already pissed as hell and a total hothead on the phone with me when I was trying to smooth things over the previous day, which I THOUGHT we did, until he didnt show up again the next day.

I obviously made some mistakes in this process mostly in the way I was working this with the tenant, but every ounce of problems going on right now are 100% the cause of this crummy business and their enormously unprofessional owner/installer.  

 
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ghostguy123 said:
You mean the labor that he didnt show up for three days in a row??  In three days, he did 2 hours of work. 

He isnt out the material.  He refused to come get it.  It's not even all the right material anyway.  He can return it himself.   Why would I pay him for material when it isnt even all the material we need?

He was already pissed as hell and a total hothead on the phone with me when I was trying to smooth things over the previous day, which I THOUGHT we did, until he didnt show up again the next day.

I obviously made some mistakes in this process mostly in the way I was working this with the tenant, but every ounce of problems going on right now are 100% the cause of this crummy business and their enormously unprofessional owner/installer.  
Click to expand...
But he is out the material. He paid for the material. He paid the labor to get it to your house. He paid for whatever labor they did at the house, even if it is only two hours as you say.

Now you want him to pay more labor to come get the materials, then spend labor time to return those materials.  This scenario created a major pain in the butt for that guy. I'd be pissed too. 

And for the record, I'm in the trades and while our company does not treat people like this, I can assure you that if we spent thousands on HVAC equipment and then had to spend time and money to go pick it up and return it we'd be pissed too.

 
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ChiefD said:
But he is out the material. He paid for the material. He paid the labor to get it to your house. He paid for whatever labor they did at the house, even if it is only two hours as you say.

Now you want him to pay more labor to come get the materials, then spend labor time to return those materials.  This scenario created a major pain in the butt for that guy. I'd be pissed too. 

And for the record, I'm in the trades and while our company does not treat people like this, I can assure you that if we spent thousands on HVAC equipment and then had to spend time and money to go pick it up and return it we'd be pissed too.
Click to expand...
He should have written penalty clauses into the contract about the period of performance.  Contractors do this stuff because they can get away with it.

 
ChiefD said:
But he is out the material. He paid for the material. He paid the labor to get it to your house. He paid for whatever labor they did at the house, even if it is only two hours as you say.

Now you want him to pay more labor to come get the materials, then spend labor time to return those materials.  This scenario created a major pain in the butt for that guy. I'd be pissed too. 

And for the record, I'm in the trades and while our company does not treat people like this, I can assure you that if we spent thousands on HVAC equipment and then had to spend time and money to go pick it up and return it we'd be pissed too.
Click to expand...


And that's one of the reasons not to treat your customers like poop.  This contractor had agreed to the dates when the work would be done, and then didn't honor those.  That's on the contractor.  Any consequences that come from that are self inflicted and no blame should be placed on the customer who has come to the conclusion that the contractor is not trustworthy. 

 
ChiefD said:
But he is out the material. He paid for the material. He paid the labor to get it to your house. He paid for whatever labor they did at the house, even if it is only two hours as you say.

Now you want him to pay more labor to come get the materials, then spend labor time to return those materials.  This scenario created a major pain in the butt for that guy. I'd be pissed too. 

And for the record, I'm in the trades and while our company does not treat people like this, I can assure you that if we spent thousands on HVAC equipment and then had to spend time and money to go pick it up and return it we'd be pissed too.
Click to expand...
I will return all the stuff myself to wherever he got it.

We haven't gotten that far into a conversation because he went directly into threatening police action, liens, and racism.

He will not speak to me about any solution.

Side note, the new flooring company I just visited told me they had three customers this past week who came to them after this other clown never showed up for their install.

All of the pain in this guys butt is 100% self inflicted.

I have gone above and beyond to make it right.  He has gone above and beyond to make it difficult.  

 
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