What I am suggesting is a lawyer should look at the law and advise the administrator on how to apply the law. I have doubts the guidance being provided is correct.
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Free speech chilled (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sam Quentin
- Start date
What I am suggesting is a lawyer should look at the law and advise the administrator on how to apply the law. I have doubts the guidance being provided is correct.
It's the law of unintended consequences.
This was a law written to ensure that both sides of the slavery issue were taught - can't have little Johnny thinking slavery was a bad concept. But, in an effort to protect the legacy of white ancestors, legislators failed to understand the actual impact of the law...
timschochet
Footballguy
Not quite. It’s the result of a state government trying to direct education for political purposes. They’re not setting any standards here, they want “opposing views” taught to combat what they believe to be liberal values. And in so doing they are creating an environment of fear in the classroom where certain subjects simply won’t be taught at all because they are “too controversial”- which, I believe, was exactly the point of this law.
Personally, I want the Holocaust, the history of black slavery, and several elements of what is now called Critical Race theory taught in public school, and I don’t want state or federal legislators who have no education experience to interfere in that.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
If folks were doing their jobs correctly in the first place, you wouldn't need intervention by politicians to get them to teach multiple perspectives on contested issues. The politicians are involved because schools aren't doing that.
timschochet
Footballguy
Getting lawyers involved will only cause most teachers to refrain from teaching about the Holocaust or slavery period because it’s too much trouble- which was, I believe, the whole purpose of this law.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t know what a “contested issue” is. I certainly have never thought of slavery, or the Holocaust, as “contested issues.”
Funny - I thought the politicians got involved because the schools were doing that...
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
"Abortion should be legal in most cases" = contested issue. You will find lots of intelligent, well-intentioned people on both sides of this topic.
"Affirmative action should be outlawed" = contested issue. You will find lots of intelligent, well-intentioned people on both sides of this topic.
"The US should further restrict immigration from Latin America" = contested issue. You will find lots of intelligent, well-intentioned people on both sides of this topic.
"Slavery was bad" = not contested.
"The holocaust was bad" = not contested.
I don't think you really don't know what a contested issue is.
This has been contested in schools/textbooks by couching things in terms of “indentured servitude” or how well some slaves were treated, etc.
“On April 18, a class of eighth graders at the Great Hearts Monte Vista North charter school in San Antonio, Texas, received a homework assignment that would spark a nationwide controversy. A worksheet, titled “The Life of Slaves: A Balanced View,” asked students to list the negative and positive aspects of slavery.”
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I can really only comment on what my experience was like in school and what my kids' experience was like. I've never personally seen slavery taught as anything other than something that was uncontroversially bad.
“But the “peculiar institution,” as Southerners came to call it, like all human institutions should not be oversimplified. While there were cruel masters who maimed or even killed their slaves (although killing and maiming were against the law in every state), there were also kind and generous owners. The institution was as complex as the people involved. Though most slaves were whipped at some point in their lives, a few never felt the lash. Nor did all slaves work in the fields. Some were house servants or skilled artisans. Many may not have even been terribly unhappy with their lot, for they knew no other.”
-8th grade text book
-8th grade text book
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Or, to put it differently, I don't think people who defend slavery are intelligent and well-intentioned.
No, that is a ridiculous assertions. It had zero to do about teaching about slavery or the Holocaust. It had to do with combating the critical race theory nonsense, which view of history primary focus is to teach how evil white people are and to project racism into everything. Nobody is against teaching about the Holocaust or slavery, but history is much more complex than turning it into everything is about race.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Do you think the badness of slavery is legitimately debatable? If not, what are we arguing about? We agree.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
"Slavery is bad" = not really debatable.
"We should regard 1619 as the real founding of America" = super-highly-double-dog-dare-debatable.
It's really not that difficult, folks.
"We should regard 1619 as the real founding of America" = super-highly-double-dog-dare-debatable.
It's really not that difficult, folks.
My point is - that is not what has been taught in schools.
And, people are now upset that it might not be glossed over.
I agree with the premise, but not the execution here.
Slavery is bad - for all people, in all eras.
But, we should explore the existence of Black people in America, and how they have been treated over the years. Taking the 1619 Project as a starting point, it should be part of the conversation. It does not overwrite the existing history, but rather is read along side of what we grew up learning. It offers a different, and in my view, valuable, alternative view of historical facts.
When the Declaration of Independence declares that "All men are created equal..." we should have conversations around why that was not true at the time. We should talk about what it was like to be Black (or female) in America when laws and policies were created to favor white men. And we should explore the legacy effects of those decisions made many generations ago. History is complex - we should not pretend that it was a simple narrative.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I was never taught anything different in schools. I agree strongly with how this topic was taught to me, and how it was taught to my kids.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I agree. That's exactly the experience that I had ~35 years ago when I was enrolled in a public school in the midwest.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
The 1619 project thinks that double-entry bookkeeping is a product of slavery. It does not need to be a starting point for this conversation.
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The 1619 Project is not a singular focus, as such it does no such thing. It is a collection of essays by different authors on different topics.
I don't think anyone has suggested that history lessons be abandoned in favor of those lessons put forth by the 1619 authors. What I, and many others have suggested, is there is a place in the curriculum for multiple points of view.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Well, I agree that we should teach multiple points of view on contested issues. You should go back and take that one up with tim.
timschochet
Footballguy
The reason I put “contested issues” in quotation marks is because I don’t know what they are in terms of teaching middle school or grade school history. Most of the subjects you mentioned, like abortion are never going to be taught. Certain aspects of what is now called critical race theory SHOULD be taught, and they shouldn’t be controversial.IvanKaramazov said:
timschochet
Footballguy
We need to go where history takes us. Racism doesn’t need to be projected because it was a big factor in our history. Many white people behaved evilly (some behaved well, and others contradictory.) I don’t think we should ignore any of this due to current day political considerations. Let’s teach what happened.jon_mx said:
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
Here's a good example of "chilling free speech" :
Journalist warns Missouri about security breach. He’s threatened with criminal charges.
Journalist warns Missouri about security breach. He’s threatened with criminal charges.
Every race and religion has a history of behaving badly. But yet civilizations advanced and grew and improved. These evil white people inventing all kinds of things and created governments which advanced human rights, machinery, medicine, computers. There were conflicts and wars fought over land and wealth and power and religion. There is so much more to history than just looking at things from the spectrum of racism. Race is so over analysized and discussed today to the point it is become a detriment and is mostly a wedge. It is just far too common to watch TV/internet and see people painted with virtue for simply being a person of color and a person looked down upon for being white. At some point we need to scream stop the stupid non-sense. We need to Unite.
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Sinn Fein said:
We are to the point of defining speech against our politics as intimidation. We are getting the full force of the FBI and DOJ lining up against parents in a situation they have no business in. I am beyond disgusted with today's modern liberalism. How can you not see how crappy that is and how it is an assault on free speech? Garland is taking the weaponizing of the DOJ to historic heights (which BTW he testified in his conformation hearings he would not do and even criticized the Obama administration).
You continuing to repeat a lie, won't make it true....
If a parent threatens a school board member with violence or death, law enforcement has a role to play.
timschochet
Footballguy
I get what you’re saying and I do sympathize with some of it. You’re right that there is a lot more than race and my initial objection to CRT was based on that. It shouldn’t be all about race.
But on the other hand it should be MORE about race. The truth of what happened regarding this issue hasn’t been taught enough. And it hasn’t been given enough emphasis IMO. It deserves a lot more, I believe.
You continuing to repeat a lie, won't make it true....
If a parent threatens a school board member with violence or death, law enforcement has a role to play.
The language was far broader and undefined and suggested a very active role for the DOJ and FBI for very minor incidents which does not justify this amount of attention....except for the politics and for the intimidation factor from the full force of the federal government. You can continue to dismiss it as a lie, but you are full of crap or a extremely naive big government statist.
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2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
I was hoping to get some opinions on this. IMO the reporter is a hero. Disturbing that the reaction of the government is that they want to throw him/her in jail.
After a half dozens of posts calling me a liar and a disingenuous troll, you certainly are a sensitive one.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I don’t do any posting online save FBGs so voted None.
the moops
Footballguy
Wasn't sure where to put this, but can we all agree that this is not good? Book bannings, really?
https://www.npr.org/2021/10/28/1050013664/texas-lawmaker-matt-krause-launches-inquiry-into-850-books?utm_term=nprnews&utm_campaign=npr&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com
A GOP Texas state lawmaker is asking schools to report whether they have any of the 850 books he identified that deal with sexuality, racism, abortion and U.S. history that he says "might make students feel discomfort, guilt ... or psychological distress."
Krause sent a letter on Monday to the Texas Education Agency and superintendents of school districts around the state, asking each official to confirm whether their schools possess any book on his list, along with a detailed accounting of where they are and how much money was spent on them.
The lawmaker did not explain what the next steps might be, but his request mentioned several recent pushes to remove books from libraries and classrooms if they center on issues from transgender identity to critical race theory. He gave the officials until Nov. 12 to reply.
https://www.npr.org/2021/10/28/1050013664/texas-lawmaker-matt-krause-launches-inquiry-into-850-books?utm_term=nprnews&utm_campaign=npr&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com
A GOP Texas state lawmaker is asking schools to report whether they have any of the 850 books he identified that deal with sexuality, racism, abortion and U.S. history that he says "might make students feel discomfort, guilt ... or psychological distress."
Krause sent a letter on Monday to the Texas Education Agency and superintendents of school districts around the state, asking each official to confirm whether their schools possess any book on his list, along with a detailed accounting of where they are and how much money was spent on them.
The lawmaker did not explain what the next steps might be, but his request mentioned several recent pushes to remove books from libraries and classrooms if they center on issues from transgender identity to critical race theory. He gave the officials until Nov. 12 to reply.
Not good at all.
It's so odd that the party that accuses everyone else of being snowflakes are literally huge snowflakes that can't stand having anything exist outside of their own myopic world view. Won't be long before they are literally throwing books into a barrel to burn.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
djmich
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Banning books from school libraries for any reason other than flagrantly age-inappropriate content (e.g. the Kama Sutra) is wrong, period. Whether it's right-wingers or left-wingers, they should be publicly disgraced and driven from office.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
There's your problem.
The Civil War wasn't about Slavery.
The Civil War was about Slavery.
Who can know?
The important thing for people to understand is that Abraham Lincoln, a white Republican, freed the slaves.
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Phil Elliott
Footballguy
Univ of Texas is opening a school that won't censor communications and will promote free speech.
Univ of Texas opening school allowing free speech
Rather disgusting the existing university or any other school can't allow free speech.
Univ of Texas opening school allowing free speech
Rather disgusting the existing university or any other school can't allow free speech.
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LawFitz
Footballguy
Furthering a response I made in one of the mucking Covid threads,
The weaponozation of the label 'misinfo' to suppress historical and foundational free speech concepts in this country and really throughout the world is VERY scary.
For sure there is a lot of bad info out there about Covid and everything else. But there's also a lot of good, critical info mixed in, which needs to rise to the surface through natural selection from among the entire populace.
Always encourage speech. Good or bad, let it happen. Protect only children from it. Trust in the populace to discern bad from good. This is the ultimate most important market of all - the one for ideas, concepts and intellectual discourse.
The weaponozation of the label 'misinfo' to suppress historical and foundational free speech concepts in this country and really throughout the world is VERY scary.
For sure there is a lot of bad info out there about Covid and everything else. But there's also a lot of good, critical info mixed in, which needs to rise to the surface through natural selection from among the entire populace.
Always encourage speech. Good or bad, let it happen. Protect only children from it. Trust in the populace to discern bad from good. This is the ultimate most important market of all - the one for ideas, concepts and intellectual discourse.
Insein
Footballguy
Yes. We absolutely should. But we ultimately never will because government is made up of people. People have agendas and points of view so their biases will naturally flow into their legislation. It's our job as a group to try to keep the damage government can do with their bias to a minimum.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Really...no consequences at all?
Im again not talking about government intervention if you follow from where that comment was made.
rockaction
Footballguy
I'm going to veer off and go back to the topic at hand rather than the 1619 project or the legislation passed against teaching CRT and say that never in my life have I seen such disregard for free speech as I have since 2016. And that comes from both sides. I personally feel that my speech has been chilled even on this board. I think what I say could get out and that it would be traced back to me as an individual. I do not trust hiring corporations, the media, or our modern politicians to respect free speech in any way, shape, or form. The proof has been in the pudding the past five years, and everybody from political actors on high to the lowest-level schoolmarm seems to believe two things: your business is their business, and they don't want to hear any business that differs from theirs. If it is necessary, they'll destroy you in some way, either economically, socially, or politically.
We hear a lot of "Suck it up, Buttercup" reprisals from each side when it happens to the other, but rarely have I seen both sides act so obtusely while preaching the mantle of "not my side doing it" or "their side is worse." It is your side doing it. Don't doubt it. And it is that bad.
I feel like real speech, true speech, has been chilled in crazy ways since the last decade, and I don't see it getting better until we have real debates about it instead of disingenuous points scored for each side of the political aisle. We need a reckoning before the storm is permanent and too damaging to come back from.
We hear a lot of "Suck it up, Buttercup" reprisals from each side when it happens to the other, but rarely have I seen both sides act so obtusely while preaching the mantle of "not my side doing it" or "their side is worse." It is your side doing it. Don't doubt it. And it is that bad.
I feel like real speech, true speech, has been chilled in crazy ways since the last decade, and I don't see it getting better until we have real debates about it instead of disingenuous points scored for each side of the political aisle. We need a reckoning before the storm is permanent and too damaging to come back from.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
It's ugly. My godson is not a child anymore. But I have deep concerns for children growing up today because they are growing up in a culture and society that teaches them to have trepidation and sometimes fear about "finding their voice"
There's a point where a young adult has to figure who they are as a person. You have to have a certain amount of freedom to make mistakes. For example, my godson is not unlike the sons of many here. They grow up, they like girls ( or otherwise) and they try to understand how to communicate with girls based on attraction. It's often a difficult complex failure prone learning process. Everyone here, as the demographic here is probably 99.99 percent male, has gone through this at some point. You say stupid things or you make mistakes and then you have to learn from them. Now it's just a zero tolerance structure. You don't get a learning curve anymore. Everything is toxic masculinity. Everything is a potential lawsuit. Everything could get you blacklisted out of a career path.
My godson tells me in his current age bracket, men in the workplaces he's been in just don't talk to women. It's too risky for career survival. So it's not just silencing people immediately from speech, it's building a culture where fear is the first consideration. We will have future generations indoctrinated not to speak up, thus they have no potential to form open dissent, thus they have no incentive to organize for that dissent. In some places like Japan, you can rent "a friend" I'm not talking an escort but just human company to sit down and eat with you or go for a walk. People are so lonely, but so pushed into a corner by more stringent public policy leaned cultural norms that they have become more isolated, even before the pandemic hit.
As for the PSF, I will only speak on the Conservatives because I have no desire to have the radical leftists start brigading this thread to try to slam fist me with Whataboutism. My hope is that all the Conservatives here operate in a manner where everything is above reproach. If there are problems in the PSF, I don't want it to come from Conservatives. I want people to be able to say, "I don't agree with their politics, but all they do is raise the level of discussion and ignore the most egregious offenders against them" There are clearly people in the PSF looking to incite others by playing dumb, dogpiling, basic trolling, gaslighting, ad hominem, logical fallacy bombing, sealioning and then they work to game the Report Button. They just want threads locked and people they disagree with banned. Which is just a pathway for silence, which then chills free speech. It will also drive away subscribers.
What are the practical answers?
Those with children will have to consider and take on more of a burden of teaching their children practical life skills but also, more paramount, critical thinking skills that they won't get in our currently cooked educational system. That one is kind of rough as parents are under the gun so much more now to just earn a living.
Everyone should try their best to be an example of what they would like to see. As Ghandhi says - be the change you want to see in the world
Avoid toxic people in any format. Just stop engaging. You aren't going to change them, they aren't going to change you. Usually they crave some kind of external validation, so don't give it to them.
Silently vote with your feet and your wallet. If you are unhappy with something, don't argue, just stop being their consumer. People who are unhappy with Facebook or Twitter or some specific MSM branch or a corporations decision should just walk from them. Gillette ran into this, they ran an ad that was seen as anti-male and lots of customers just walked.
What do I think will actually happen? Civil war. Sometimes two sides are so far apart and there's too much bad blood as a legacy and all other mechanisms have been exhausted or removed or avoided. People across human history usually didn't realize their failings until they had to watch their children die. The American side of this problem is most people are born into a "bubble of abundance" They believe it will always be there and that someone else will take care of their problems. I'm old enough and have traveled enough and experienced enough of the non Western bubble, and in an age without social media and cameras everywhere, to see ethnic cleansing up close. I've seen people beg for their lives, people lined up against walls and children being used like cattle.
It is against natural law and an unspeakable tragedy when a parent has to outlive one of their children. Political tribalism is a stupid reason to watch one's children get their throats cut. But that's where we are headed. "My Side Won!" is little consolation when people hear their kids begging for their lives.
The only litmus test that matters is - Will this issue ( whatever issue) become a critical juncture that will make the world a better place for my children or not?
rockaction
Footballguy
We don't always agree, but we're in full agreement here.
As for your other points, I am more sanguine than you about civil war and its likelihood. I do not think that it will come to that.
But we do agree that our country, and the West writ large, is headed in an untenable direction for free speech and free expression. It may be that we'll have to abide a tunnel of darkness in order that we may see the light, but I think we will.
And I hope we come out better from it.
It's sad we can't even talk to the opposite sex anymore. People are not given the leeway they need to form lasting friendships and loves because everything is up for grabs, everything personal is so sociopolitical. It's a bad way to be, and we need to figure out a way where we're not consuming the toxic garbage that our institutions are held capture by at this moment.
I pray.
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