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Have you self censored a political opinion out of fear for your job  

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54 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Isn't one of the consequences of the law that you have a school administrator telling teachers to have an opposing point of view to the holocaust?

SOUTHLAKE, Texas — A top administrator with the Carroll Independent School District in Southlake advised teachers last week that if they have a book about the Holocaust in their classroom, they should also offer students access to a book from an “opposing” perspective, according to an audio recording obtained by NBC News.

Gina Peddy, the Carroll school district’s executive director of curriculum and instruction, made the comment Friday afternoon during a training session on which books teachers can have in classroom libraries. The training came four days after the Carroll school board, responding to a parent’s complaint, voted to reprimand a fourth grade teacher who had kept an anti-racism book in her classroom.

Are you suggesting teachers can ignore school administrators here?

 

What I am suggesting is a lawyer should look at the law and advise the administrator on how to apply the law.  I have doubts the guidance being provided is correct.  

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10 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

 

What I am suggesting is a lawyer should look at the law and advise the administrator on how to apply the law.  I have doubts the guidance being provided is correct.  

 

It's the law of unintended consequences.

 

This was a law written to ensure that both sides of the slavery issue were taught - can't have little Johnny thinking slavery was a bad concept.  But, in an effort to protect the legacy of white ancestors, legislators failed to understand the actual impact of the law...

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43 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

The public school system is a government entity.  Governments at all levels set various standards for what will be taught.  

The US is a big country, and if you go looking for a ####### doing some ####### thing somewhere in a large industry, you'll be able to find one.  That's what this story is.

Not quite. It’s the result of a state government trying to direct education for political purposes. They’re not setting any standards here, they want “opposing views” taught to combat what they believe to be liberal values. And in so doing they are creating an environment of fear in the classroom where certain subjects simply won’t be taught at all because they are “too controversial”- which, I believe, was exactly the point of this law. 
 

Personally, I want the Holocaust, the history of black slavery, and several elements of what is now called Critical Race theory taught in public school, and I don’t want state or federal legislators who have no education experience to interfere in that. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Not quite. It’s the result of a state government trying to direct education for political purposes. They’re not setting any standards here, they want “opposing views” taught to combat what they believe to be liberal values. And in so doing they are creating an environment of fear in the classroom where certain subjects simply won’t be taught at all because they are “too controversial”- which, I believe, was exactly the point of this law. 
 

Personally, I want the Holocaust, the history of black slavery, and several elements of what is now called Critical Race theory taught in public school, and I don’t want state or federal legislators who have no education experience to interfere in that. 

If folks were doing their jobs correctly in the first place, you wouldn't need intervention by politicians to get them to teach multiple perspectives on contested issues.  The politicians are involved because schools aren't doing that.

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13 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

 

What I am suggesting is a lawyer should look at the law and advise the administrator on how to apply the law.  I have doubts the guidance being provided is correct.  

Getting lawyers involved will only cause most teachers to refrain from teaching about  the Holocaust or slavery period because it’s too much trouble- which was, I believe, the whole purpose of this law. 

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

If folks were doing their jobs correctly in the first place, you wouldn't need intervention by politicians to get them to teach multiple perspectives on contested issues.  The politicians are involved because schools aren't doing that.

I don’t know what a “contested issue” is. I certainly have never thought of slavery, or the Holocaust, as “contested issues.” 

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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If folks were doing their jobs correctly in the first place, you wouldn't need intervention by politicians to get them to teach multiple perspectives on contested issues.  The politicians are involved because schools aren't doing that.

 

Funny - I thought the politicians got involved because the schools were doing that...

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I don’t know what a “contested issue” is. I certainly have never thought of slavery, or the Holocaust, as “contested issues.” 

"Abortion should be legal in most cases" = contested issue.  You will find lots of intelligent, well-intentioned people on both sides of this topic.

"Affirmative action should be outlawed" = contested issue.  You will find lots of intelligent, well-intentioned people on both sides of this topic.

"The US should further restrict immigration from Latin America" = contested issue.  You will find lots of intelligent, well-intentioned people on both sides of this topic.

"Slavery was bad" = not contested.

"The holocaust was bad" = not contested.

I don't think you really don't know what a contested issue is.

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

"Slavery was bad" = not contested.

This has been contested in schools/textbooks by couching things in terms of “indentured servitude” or how well some slaves were treated, etc. 

“On April 18, a class of eighth graders at the Great Hearts Monte Vista North charter school in San Antonio, Texas, received a homework assignment that would spark a nationwide controversy. A worksheet, titled “The Life of Slaves: A Balanced View,” asked students to list the negative and positive aspects of slavery.”

 

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Just now, Sinn Fein said:

This has been contested in schools/textbooks by couching things in terms of “indentured servitude” or how well some slaves were treated, etc. 

“On April 18, a class of eighth graders at the Great Hearts Monte Vista North charter school in San Antonio, Texas, received a homework assignment that would spark a nationwide controversy. A worksheet, titled “The Life of Slaves: A Balanced View,” asked students to list the negative and positive aspects of slavery.”

 

I can really only comment on what my experience was like in school and what my kids' experience was like.  I've never personally seen slavery taught as anything other than something that was uncontroversially bad.  

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“But the “peculiar institution,” as Southerners came to call it, like all human institutions should not be oversimplified. While there were cruel masters who maimed or even killed their slaves (although killing and maiming were against the law in every state), there were also kind and generous owners. The institution was as complex as the people involved. Though most slaves were whipped at some point in their lives, a few never felt the lash. Nor did all slaves work in the fields. Some were house servants or skilled artisans. Many may not have even been terribly unhappy with their lot, for they knew no other.”

 

-8th grade text book

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Getting lawyers involved will only cause most teachers to refrain from teaching about  the Holocaust or slavery period because it’s too much trouble- which was, I believe, the whole purpose of this law. 

 

No, that is a ridiculous assertions. It had zero to do about teaching about slavery or the Holocaust.  It had to do with combating the critical race theory nonsense, which view of history primary focus is to teach how evil white people are and to project racism into everything.  Nobody is against teaching about the Holocaust or slavery, but history is much more complex than turning it into everything is about race.  

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Just now, Sinn Fein said:

“But the “peculiar institution,” as Southerners came to call it, like all human institutions should not be oversimplified. While there were cruel masters who maimed or even killed their slaves (although killing and maiming were against the law in every state), there were also kind and generous owners. The institution was as complex as the people involved. Though most slaves were whipped at some point in their lives, a few never felt the lash. Nor did all slaves work in the fields. Some were house servants or skilled artisans. Many may not have even been terribly unhappy with their lot, for they knew no other.”

 

-8th grade text book

Do you think the badness of slavery is legitimately debatable?  If not, what are we arguing about?  We agree.

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

Do you think the badness of slavery is legitimately debatable?  If not, what are we arguing about?  We agree.

 

My point is - that is not what has been taught in schools.

And, people are now upset that it might not be glossed over.

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

"Slavery is bad" = not really debatable.

"We should regard 1619 as the real founding of America" = super-highly-double-dog-dare-debatable.

It's really not that difficult, folks.

I agree with the premise, but not the execution here.

 

Slavery is bad - for all people, in all eras.

But, we should explore the existence of Black people in America, and how they have been treated over the years.  Taking the 1619 Project as a starting point, it should be part of the conversation.  It does not overwrite the existing history, but rather is read along side of what we grew up learning.  It offers a different, and in my view, valuable, alternative view of historical facts.

 

When the Declaration of Independence declares that "All men are created equal..." we should have conversations around why that was not true at the time.  We should talk about what it was like to be Black (or female) in America when laws and policies were created to favor white men.  And we should explore the legacy effects of those decisions made many generations ago.  History is complex - we should not pretend that it was a simple narrative.

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12 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

 

My point is - that is not what has been taught in schools.

And, people are now upset that it might not be glossed over.

I was never taught anything different in schools.  I agree strongly with how this topic was taught to me, and how it was taught to my kids.

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7 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

When the Declaration of Independence declares that "All men are created equal..." we should have conversations around why that was not true at the time.  We should talk about what it was like to be Black (or female) in America when laws and policies were created to favor white men.  And we should explore the legacy effects of those decisions made many generations ago.  History is complex - we should not pretend that it was a simple narrative.

I agree.  That's exactly the experience that I had ~35 years ago when I was enrolled in a public school in the midwest.

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12 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

But, we should explore the existence of Black people in America, and how they have been treated over the years.  Taking the 1619 Project as a starting point, it should be part of the conversation.  

The 1619 project thinks that double-entry bookkeeping is a product of slavery.  It does not need to be a starting point for this conversation.

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

The 1619 project thinks that double-entry bookkeeping is a product of slavery.  It does not need to a starting point for this conversation.

 

The 1619 Project is not a singular focus, as such it does no such thing.  It is a collection of essays by different authors on different topics.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that history lessons be abandoned in favor of those lessons put forth by the 1619 authors.  What I, and many others have suggested, is there is a place in the curriculum for multiple points of view.

 

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1 minute ago, Sinn Fein said:

I don't think anyone has suggested that history lessons be abandoned in favor of those lessons put forth by the 1619 authors.  What I, and many others have suggested, is there is a place in the curriculum for multiple points of view.

 

Well, I agree that we should teach multiple points of view on contested issues.  You should go back and take that one up with tim.

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Well, I agree that we should teach multiple points of view on contested issues.  You should go back and take that one up with tim.

The reason I put “contested issues” in quotation marks is because I don’t know what they are in terms of teaching middle school or grade school history. Most of the subjects you mentioned, like abortion are never going to be taught. Certain aspects of what is now called critical race theory SHOULD be taught, and they shouldn’t be controversial. 

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1 hour ago, jon_mx said:

 

No, that is a ridiculous assertions. It had zero to do about teaching about slavery or the Holocaust.  It had to do with combating the critical race theory nonsense, which view of history primary focus is to teach how evil white people are and to project racism into everything.  Nobody is against teaching about the Holocaust or slavery, but history is much more complex than turning it into everything is about race.  

We need to go where history takes us. Racism doesn’t need to be projected because it was a big factor in our history. Many white people behaved evilly (some behaved well, and others contradictory.) I don’t think we should ignore any of this due to current day political considerations. Let’s teach what happened. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

We need to go where history takes us. Racism doesn’t need to be projected because it was a big factor in our history. Many white people behaved evilly (some behaved well, and others contradictory.) I don’t think we should ignore any of this due to current day political considerations. Let’s teach what happened. 

 

Every race and religion has a history of behaving badly. But yet civilizations advanced and grew and improved.  These evil white people inventing all kinds of things and created governments which advanced human rights, machinery, medicine, computers.  There were conflicts and wars fought over land and wealth and power and religion.  There is so much more to history than just looking at things from the spectrum of racism.  Race is so over analysized and discussed today to the point it is become a detriment and is mostly a wedge.  It is just far too common to watch TV/internet and see people painted with virtue for simply being a person of color and a person looked down upon for being white.  At some point we need to scream stop the stupid non-sense.   We need to Unite.  

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21 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

 

Given the amount of school board meetings in the news recently - I'd say nobody is being intimidated....other than the school board members.

 

We are to the point of defining speech against our politics as intimidation.  We are getting the full force of the FBI and DOJ lining up against parents in a situation they have no business in.  I am beyond disgusted with today's modern liberalism. How can you not see how crappy that is and how it is an assault on free speech?  Garland is taking the weaponizing of the DOJ to historic heights (which BTW he testified in his conformation hearings he would not do and even criticized the Obama administration).  

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21 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

We are getting the full force of the FBI and DOJ lining up against parents in a situation they have no business in. 

 

:hophead:

You continuing to repeat a lie, won't make it true....

If a parent threatens a school board member with violence or death, law enforcement has a role to play.

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17 hours ago, jon_mx said:

 

Every race and religion has a history of behaving badly. But yet civilizations advanced and grew and improved.  These evil white people inventing all kinds of things and created governments which advanced human rights, machinery, medicine, computers.  There were conflicts and wars fought over land and wealth and power and religion.  There is so much more to history than just looking at things from the spectrum of racism.  Race is so over analysized and discussed today to the point it is become a detriment and is mostly a wedge.  It is just far too common to watch TV/internet and see people painted with virtue for simply being a person of color and a person looked down upon for being white.  At some point we need to scream stop the stupid non-sense.   We need to Unite.  

I get what you’re saying and I do sympathize with some of it. You’re right that there is a lot more than race and my initial objection to CRT was based on that. It shouldn’t be all about race. 
But on the other hand it should be MORE about race. The truth of what happened regarding this issue hasn’t been taught enough. And it hasn’t been given enough emphasis IMO. It deserves a lot more, I believe. 

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1 hour ago, Sinn Fein said:

 

:hophead:

You continuing to repeat a lie, won't make it true....

If a parent threatens a school board member with violence or death, law enforcement has a role to play.

 

The language was far broader and undefined and suggested a very active role for the DOJ and FBI for very minor incidents which does not justify this amount of attention....except for the politics and for the intimidation factor from the full force of the federal government.  You can continue to dismiss it as a lie, but you are full of crap or a  extremely naive big government statist. 

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