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Revisiting the issue of allowing biological males to use women's bathrooms, and the Loudoun County rape case (1 Viewer)

It seems unlikely to me that kids will start narcing on each other for using the "wrong" bathroom, for the same reasons that they don't narc on each other for vaping in the bathroom.

The posted article doesn't say it explicitly, but the last couple paragraphs make it sound like even the kid that was allegedly raped views this issue differently than her parents.


We'll just have to agree to disagree on your first paragraph.  But what's new between you and I on this topic?  And that's not a dig, just a reality.  I understand your perspective but don't agree with it.

On your 2nd paragraph, I have not read this particular article.  I just clicked on it and it wanted me to give e-mail and other information which I wont do.  I am familiar with this incident from other sources though.  That being said, your 2nd paragraph makes it sound like this girl was ok with being raped.  I know for a fact that isn't true. 

 
I think we’re all probably in agreement that rape is bad.  That’s why pretty much all “Libs” support reauthorizing the Violence Against Women Act.  Too bad conservatives have prevented reauthorization.


Blame on both sides.  The Dems added provisions to the Bill that they knew Senate Republicans would oppose instead of just refunding the Bill in its current form.    

https://caffeinatedthoughts.com/2019/11/ernst-is-right-to-oppose-house-version-of-the-violence-against-women-act/

 
On your 2nd paragraph, I have not read this particular article.  I just clicked on it and it wanted me to give e-mail and other information which I wont do.  I am familiar with this incident from other sources though.  That being said, your 2nd paragraph makes it sound like this girl was ok with being raped.  I know for a fact that isn't true. 
No, I didn't say that she was OK with being raped. The last two paragraphs say that that the kid "has adopted increasingly strong progressive views over the course of her tenure at LCPS."  

 
We can agree to disagree.  And honestly, much like the sports thread, I suspect if you polled males in school they'd be fine with trans males using the men's restroom.  Much like that case, although for somewhat different reasons, the real issue here is biological males using the biological female restroom.
It seems like you might want to amend your rule then. The one suggested by TakiToki appears on point with what you are saying. 

 
I think this would work.  I also think, much like small restaurants sometimes do, maybe we just need to create  individual bathrooms without a designated sex.  What we shouldn't do, IMO, is force teenage girls to have to share a bathroom or locker room with biological males.  And i can't believe I actually have to say that out loud and try to convince people it's a bad idea.
Depends what you mean by “biological males.”  We talking DNA or having male genitals?  Because a number of jurisdictions have promoted the “birth certificate” rule. 

 
Imo , if you have a penis stay out of the girls bath/locker rooms
But okay to use the boys bathroom even if you have a vagina? That’s the TakiToki suggestion that I think addresses the immediate safety concern being raised in this thread (which is not the only issue - but is the focus of this particular discussion).

 
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Every kid doesn't know every kid.  But the bathroom isn't used by just two kids.  There are a lot of kids filing in and out of the bathroom.  It's very likely someone is going to know them. 
So is this discussion limited to high schools and junior highs?

 
This is a serious topic so am not being trifling but the title of the thread and some of the discussion seems misplaced to me. According the the op the male wearing the skirt was not Allowed into the girls restroom as the school system had not yet implemented a policy regarding trans use of bathroom facilities. That didn't occur until two months later. This means the alleged rapist acted not with permission but unilaterally decided the time, place, means and manner of the assault without regard to policy or law, much like all predators.

 
Well that goes back to the point I raised. Trans males, who look like dudes, will be required to use the women’s restroom under your rule. I would think that is going to make girls/women pretty apprehensive. And if people who are largely indistinguishable from males in a bathroom environment are regularly using the women’s restroom, I think that would increase rather than decrease the risk of a rapist infiltrating the women’s restroom. 

 
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I am a father.  If my kid was raped I would not have acted the way this guy did when called into school the day of his daughter's alleged rape.  I would not have acted the way this guy did at the school board meeting. 

Part of the issue here seems to be that the father has a difficult time navigating these issues without flying off the handle.  That's not an effective way to get justice for his daughter and it's not an effective way to change policies. 
Just out of curiosity, how would you act if this happened to one of your children? And imagine a father having a difficult time navigating the rape of his daughter. 

 
Just out of curiosity, how would you act if this happened to one of your children? And imagine a father having a difficult time navigating the rape of his daughter. 
Here is how Smith describes his own actions at the school:

"I went nuts.  I called the principal a p-----. .... Six cop cars showed up like a f----ing SWAT team" to respond to his behavior.  Smith seems to think it worked out well, though, because with the attention he received "we got an escort to the hospital and they administered a rape kit that night."  We've seen the video posted of him scuffling with cops at the school board meeting.

I wouldn't do any of those things.

If my daughter was raped at school the first thing I would do would be to try to comfort her  I'm pretty sure that after undergoing the trauma of a rape, the last thing my kid would want is for her dad to come busting in there calling the principal names and acting so out of control that six cops have to show up.  After leaving the school with my daughter, I would take her to the hospital myself to get a rape kit administered if warranted, there's no need for me to get arrested for that to happen.  My primary focus in those first hours would be mostly on caring for my child's welfare, and to a lesser extent, preserving any evidence that might be important in convicting the rapist.

If I had concerns about how the school acted in either preventing or responding to the rape, I would raise those concerns to the school and school board in a way that seemed most likely to persuade them to change the policies.  I would explain what happened to my daughter and why and how I think the school's policies contributed to it.  I wouldn't go to a school board meeting, get into a shouting match with someone, then start physically fighting with the cops that told me to back off.  

 
Here is how Smith describes his own actions at the school:

"I went nuts.  I called the principal a p-----. .... Six cop cars showed up like a f----ing SWAT team" to respond to his behavior.  Smith seems to think it worked out well, though, because with the attention he received "we got an escort to the hospital and they administered a rape kit that night."  We've seen the video posted of him scuffling with cops at the school board meeting.

I wouldn't do any of those things.

If my daughter was raped at school the first thing I would do would be to try to comfort her  I'm pretty sure that after undergoing the trauma of a rape, the last thing my kid would want is for her dad to come busting in there calling the principal names and acting so out of control that six cops have to show up.  After leaving the school with my daughter, I would take her to the hospital myself to get a rape kit administered if warranted, there's no need for me to get arrested for that to happen.  My primary focus in those first hours would be mostly on caring for my child's welfare, and to a lesser extent, preserving any evidence that might be important in convicting the rapist.

If I had concerns about how the school acted in either preventing or responding to the rape, I would raise those concerns to the school and school board in a way that seemed most likely to persuade them to change the policies.  I would explain what happened to my daughter and why and how I think the school's policies contributed to it.  I wouldn't go to a school board meeting, get into a shouting match with someone, then start physically fighting with the cops that told me to back off.  
I believe you, and this is how I would handle myself as well.

But if there's one thing I've learned from posting here, it's that 99%+ of FBGs would turn into uncontrollable cyclones of violence if their daughter was attacked, so I definitely expect all of those folks to rally to the father's defense here.  

 
But if there's one thing I've learned from posting here, it's that 99%+ of FBGs would turn into uncontrollable cyclones of violence if their daughter was attacked, so I definitely expect all of those folks to rally to the father's defense here.  
He called the principal a p**** and then reacted verbally in the school meeting.  If your cyclone of violence doesn't even include a punch then that's a pretty low bar.

I don't believe either of his reactions to be outrageous.  And, frankly, the principal should go to jail for trying to cover up the crime.

 
Well that goes back to the point I raised. Trans males, who look like dudes, will be required to use the women’s restroom under your rule. I would think that is going to make girls/women pretty apprehensive. And if people who are largely indistinguishable from males in a bathroom environment are regularly using the women’s restroom, I think that would increase rather than decrease the risk of a rapist infiltrating the women’s restroom. 
Fair enough

Separate bathrooms then imo 

 
My kids go to some hippie K-12 urban montessori thing, so I know what they live in their school lives is different. But the bathrooms at their school are for everyone/anyone. You go into a large open space that has sinks, then around either corner are 4 or 5 single stall toilets for anyone to use. There are maybe 10 of these bathrooms throughout the school. There are only 400 kids in the school, so maybe that model is not scalable, but it seems to work well. And this school has more than average trans students

 
Here is how Smith describes his own actions at the school:

"I went nuts.  I called the principal a p-----. .... Six cop cars showed up like a f----ing SWAT team" to respond to his behavior.  Smith seems to think it worked out well, though, because with the attention he received "we got an escort to the hospital and they administered a rape kit that night."  We've seen the video posted of him scuffling with cops at the school board meeting.

I wouldn't do any of those things.

If my daughter was raped at school the first thing I would do would be to try to comfort her  I'm pretty sure that after undergoing the trauma of a rape, the last thing my kid would want is for her dad to come busting in there calling the principal names and acting so out of control that six cops have to show up.  After leaving the school with my daughter, I would take her to the hospital myself to get a rape kit administered if warranted, there's no need for me to get arrested for that to happen.  My primary focus in those first hours would be mostly on caring for my child's welfare, and to a lesser extent, preserving any evidence that might be important in convicting the rapist.

If I had concerns about how the school acted in either preventing or responding to the rape, I would raise those concerns to the school and school board in a way that seemed most likely to persuade them to change the policies.  I would explain what happened to my daughter and why and how I think the school's policies contributed to it.  I wouldn't go to a school board meeting, get into a shouting match with someone, then start physically fighting with the cops that told me to back off.  
Fair enough. I have no reason to doubt you. I'll just add that dealing with a hypothetical this tragic on a F.F. message board and dealing with it in real life might elicit different responses. And for the record, I have no idea how I would react if this happened to my daughter. 

 
I know we disagree about this stuff, but what about that statement was disgusting?


- No empathy for the victims. 

- Using Title IX to justify transferring the perpetrator to another school.  Nothing in Title IX would say transfer an accused rapist to another school. 

- Running cover for the school board president, who said  there was no rape.  He didn't say he wasn't aware of a rape.  He said no rape had happened.   Not only is that factually incorrect but he basically called the victim's father a liar and victimized the rape victim all over again.  And this statement tries to offer him cover.

Completely lacking in sympathy and put out for the simple purpose of offering up excuses for the horrible way they have handled this incident.

 
The accused has a right to a presumption of innocence by the school system and the school board so they have to be mindful in how they proceed during the investigation. The alleged victim also has a right to privacy by the school board and the school system even if the parent decides to break that privacy. 

 
The accused has a right to a presumption of innocence by the school system and the school board so they have to be mindful in how they proceed during the investigation. The alleged victim also has a right to privacy by the school board and the school system even if the parent decides to break that privacy. 
Presumption of innocence does not mean move to another school and hope no one finds out about it. They are directly culpable in the second rape for not immediately having the police investigate. I imagine the second girl's family will have something to say about it as well. 

 
Presumption of innocence does not mean move to another school and hope no one finds out about it. They are directly culpable in the second rape for not immediately having the police investigate. I imagine the second girl's family will have something to say about it as well. 
The police were called in to investigate immedialtey

 
AN interesting aspect of this particular incident in relation to your question is that a main point in this incident is that the school board allegedly purposely did NOT call the police and report this and tried to cover it up internally and not draw attention. So, it is not about how many you have on a "scoreboard". It is the issue that actually happens and it is disturbing to see how things get covered up. 

That is why the parents in this district are going nuts.  They literally are saying the school board is willing to sacrifice young girls to rape instead of reporting the incident.  This boy who committed the offense was moved to another school district and now faces another charge of the same offense.  Imagine being the parent of the 2nd girl and knowing what their daughter experienced was completely avoidable.
I can't think of an incident of a girl being raped at school where the school and school board shouted it from the rooftops. I'm not sure this is a 'cover up' so much as standard operating procedure for how to handle a rape case at a school.

 
Visit the Loudon county schools facebook page and you will see how inflamed some of the community is over this incident. Add to the CRT issue and the mask mandates and I can see someone attacking a board member, its getting close to violence.
I don't live far from Loudon and have many friends with kids who go to school there. Loudon does not teach CRT. Pretty much everyone I know there, Bernie Democrat to full on Trump Republican thinks what goes on at these school board meetings is complete bat-s nutso.

 
AN interesting aspect of this particular incident in relation to your question is that a main point in this incident is that the school board allegedly purposely did NOT call the police and report this and tried to cover it up internally and not draw attention. So, it is not about how many you have on a "scoreboard". It is the issue that actually happens and it is disturbing to see how things get covered up. 

That is why the parents in this district are going nuts.  They literally are saying the school board is willing to sacrifice young girls to rape instead of reporting the incident.  This boy who committed the offense was moved to another school district and now faces another charge of the same offense.  Imagine being the parent of the 2nd girl and knowing what their daughter experienced was completely avoidable.
The district should be held accountable for that. We've seen institutions and organizations cover up or ignore sexual assaults for as long as human history has existed. It's a real problem but it is not unique to this situation. This is a massive human problem. 

 
The district should be held accountable for that. We've seen institutions and organizations cover up or ignore sexual assaults for as long as human history has existed. It's a real problem but it is not unique to this situation. This is a massive human problem. 
Except in this case it appears the school immediately contacted the police who conducted an investigation and the board was unaware of the incident

 
Except in this case it appears the school immediately contacted the police who conducted an investigation and the board was unaware of the incident
The details of this one particular case don't really matter to me. I hope justice is done and all parties find peace in their lives following these horrible incidents that will bring incredible stress and worry into the lives of everyone involved. I have no connection to the people here and can't offer anything other than to let it serve as a reminder to protect my students and always keep a look out for signs of distress. As well as make sure when bad things are done in my small corner of the world, they are handled properly by myself and those in power. That's what we should all do instead of any "victory lapping" or "narrative building". When we do that, we divert our attention from the real issues all for the chance to say, "I was right." 

 
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I can't think of an incident of a girl being raped at school where the school and school board shouted it from the rooftops. I'm not sure this is a 'cover up' so much as standard operating procedure for how to handle a rape case at a school.
Shouting from the rooftops is far far from calling the authorities and reporting a crime

I don't know why you are trying to be so dismissive about the rape of a girl. I don't care. But for corrective purposes, let's clarify to make sure we aren't expecting anyone to broadcast it from the rooftops. We are simply questioning why the school board didn't abide by the law, report a crime, and protect a child. 

 
The district should be held accountable for that. We've seen institutions and organizations cover up or ignore sexual assaults for as long as human history has existed. It's a real problem but it is not unique to this situation. This is a massive human problem. 
Yes, agree.  Sadly, not unique.  Just stating my post to clarify why people are reasonably upset. Bad things happen in the world and people try (and do) get away with things but I'm not surprised that the parents and some in the community are outraged. It would be more upsetting if they weren't

 
Shouting from the rooftops is far far from calling the authorities and reporting a crime

I don't know why you are trying to be so dismissive about the rape of a girl. I don't care. But for corrective purposes, let's clarify to make sure we aren't expecting anyone to broadcast it from the rooftops. We are simply questioning why the school board didn't abide by the law, report a crime, and protect a child. 
The police were called within minutes of learning of the incident and on the same day the incident occurred

 
The father's version of the story that the school tried to hide the issue is incorrect and it is likely his emotion clouding his vision

 
The police were called within minutes of learning of the incident and on the same day the incident occurred
Can you link that?  Not being one of those guys saying "prove it". I seriously didn't know that.  When I heard the report a day or two ago that wasn't the case (being reported). I haven't been around the laptop/tv today.  Would like to catch up.  

 
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https://www.loudountimes.com/news/lcps-issues-response-to-newly-surfaced-sexual-assault-allegations/article_6420912a-2c55-11ec-b677-1f5c38b8993a.html

Loudoun County Sheriff’s Office was contacted within minutes of receiving the initial report on May 28,” LCPS officials wrote, referring to the alleged incident at Stone Bridge. “Once a matter has been reported to law enforcement, LCPS does not begin its investigation until law enforcement advises LCPS that it has completed the criminal investigation.”

 
Can you link that?  Not being one of those guys saying "prove it". I seriously didn't know that.  When I heard the report a day or two ago that wasn't the case (being reported). I haven't been around the laptop/tv today.  Would like to catch up.  
It's been repeated in this thread you are posting in...

 
Right and if that person wasn't allowed in the hallways the second person wouldn't have been assaulted.  Do you think that we should prohibit trans people from using the hallways?  If you think bathrooms and hallways should be treated differently you need to explain why.  If you think trans people should be prohibited from being everywhere that a sexual assault might occur, you need to explain why that policy makes sense (given that the overwhelming majority of rapes/sexual assaults are committed by cis men).
Are girls dropping their pants in the hallway?  You don’t get the whole privacy thing?  This was a crime of opportunity.  He could have raped her afterward in the hallway.  He didn’t.  He raped her in a bathroom, where it was just the two of them, in a place where the school allowed him to be.

 
For those interested, the father of the 14 year old girl who was raped (known to you Libs as the bigoted domestic terrorist) will be on Laura Ingram tonight at 10:20.

 
I can't think of an incident of a girl being raped at school where the school and school board shouted it from the rooftops. I'm not sure this is a 'cover up' so much as standard operating procedure for how to handle a rape case at a school.
Get your facts straight.  At the June 22nd BOE meeting where the girl’s father confronted the BOE over the coverup, Superintendent Scott Ziegler lied through the skin of his teeth and said, "To my knowledge, we don't have any record of assaults occurring in our restrooms."

 
This horrible thing happened almost 5 months ago? Why is this a sudden topic in here?
Because there wasn't a thread started 5 months ago?  You have some sort of expiration date because there are a half dozen threads going strong about something that happened over 7 months ago?

 
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Because there wasn't a thread 5 months ago?  You have some sort of expiration date because there are a half dozen threads going strong about something that happened over 7 months ago?
Normally threads that are started relate to current events. I was just asking why this popped up, that's all. @fatguyinalittlecoat said there was an update to the story a few days ago, so that suffices I suppose. 

 
Normally threads that are started relate to current events. I was just asking why this popped up, that's all. @fatguyinalittlecoat said there was an update to the story a few days ago, so that suffices I suppose. 
Oh thank goodness it meets your imaginary standard. 

Better question is why you had to deflect by asking such a question the first place. Your defence mechinizm just puts thoughts like that in your head automatically?  

 
JFC you making this stuff up as you go along?  Why are you defending these scumbags? 

Are girls dropping their pants in the hallway?  You don’t get the whole privacy thing?  This was a crime of opportunity.  He could have raped her afterward in the hallway.  He didn’t.  He raped her in a bathroom, where it was just the two of them, in a place where the school allowed him to be.
The young man was not allowed in the women's restroom by school policy as the transgender policy was not put into effect until 2 months after the assault. At the time of the assault the young man just took opportunity where presented itself as he did apparently in October.

 

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