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I learned something about the legal system (1 Viewer)

I am guessing when the watched the footage they saw the search was conducted illegally. 


I'm guessing that too, they did something wrong in how they conducted it all. 

Question is - why didn't the public defender spend a couple of hours and watch that video too? He didn't care. For $5000 he would have maybe, like our lawyer did

 
I'm guessing that too, they did something wrong in how they conducted it all. 

Question is - why didn't the public defender spend a couple of hours and watch that video too? He didn't care. For $5000 he would have maybe, like our lawyer did
Maybe he isn’t very good as his job. 

 
Maybe he isn’t very good as his job. 


that could be 

Maybe there isn't enough time in a day.


that's no excuse

That too. A stack of cases to work through. Got to churn and burn.


that's a situation that can exist - but then again it points to the fact that people without money do not get the same representation - and this wasn't a difficult case to look at as proven by the lawyer we attained ... which is my point, Wealth matters when having legal woes and at the bottom cases like these I'm just a little surprised I guess is all

its not like this is a murder trial 

 
that could be 

that's no excuse

that's a situation that can exist - but then again it points to the fact that people without money do not get the same representation - and this wasn't a difficult case to look at as proven by the lawyer we attained ... which is my point, Wealth matters when having legal woes and at the bottom cases like these I'm just a little surprised I guess is all

its not like this is a murder trial 
I don’t want to sound like a jerk - I am glad that things are working out for your daughter - but is this really a shock to you?

Don’t cheap out on your lawyers, your doctors, and your meat and produce. 

 
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that could be 

that's no excuse

that's a situation that can exist - but then again it points to the fact that people without money do not get the same representation - and this wasn't a difficult case to look at as proven by the lawyer we attained ... which is my point, Wealth matters when having legal woes and at the bottom cases like these I'm just a little surprised I guess is all

its not like this is a murder trial 
Maybe we should "defund the police" a little bit and have one fewer tank in your rural community and allocate a little bit more to the public defenders office?   Because that is what you are seeing here.  The choices of voters that spent more on policing, wanted "law and order" and "broken window" policies.  Maybe privatized the prisons and need to keep the profits rolling in.  But most of all voters that don't give a :censored:  about "bottom cases" because those are those "other people".  There are forty hours in a work week, surely a public defender can handle 36 case (I made that number up).  That is until it hits home.

 
I have

a lot

there are many rules/restrictions that favor other skin colors over others right now in the USA either through quota's or exclusions or special treatments etc

you are right

I've always known big money wins in legal cases - I did not think public defenders were what her turned out to be. Maybe this was rare? Maybe he was a racist and treated my daughter accordingly? I don't know - I know that $5000 was the cost/difference in what appeared to be a choice in no charges or probation/felony please

Wealth mattered - and maybe you're right ... maybe her skin color did too 
This is not at all what I meant but I think you know that.  Either way I will take this no further and I wish you luck with your daughters situation.  

 
I don’t want to sound like a jerk - I am glad that things are working out for your daughter - but is this really a shock to you?

Don’t cheap out on your lawyers, your doctors, and your meat and produce. 


it was a little yes

The care you get for the lower end illnesses - like the flu for example - does it matter if you get the care from an ER, a PCP, a local corner med clinic or if you pay $5000 for a specialized care ? not talking murder cases or cancer - just lower end charges/sickness

Same with meat/produce ... we all have access to pretty much the same meats/produce ... on lower/middle class stuff. I mean $5000 bottles of wine and $500 an ounce caviar really isn't equivalent 

"cheap out" ,,,,,,  

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the annual caseload assigned to public defenders spanned from 50 to 590 cases. For comparison, the American Bar Association sets their recommended maximum caseload at 150 felony cases or 400 misdemeanor cases.Jul 25, 2018  There are over 9,139 public defenders currently employed in the United States. 53.0% of all public defenders are women, while only 43.7% are men. The average age of an employed public defender is 45 years old.Sep 9, 2021

Are you saying a lot of people are "cheaping out" by using public defenders ?

 
Maybe we should "defund the police" a little bit and have one fewer tank in your rural community and allocate a little bit more to the public defenders office?   Because that is what you are seeing here.  The choices of voters that spent more on policing, wanted "law and order" and "broken window" policies.  Maybe privatized the prisons and need to keep the profits rolling in.  But most of all voters that don't give a :censored:  about "bottom cases" because those are those "other people".  There are forty hours in a work week, surely a public defender can handle 36 case (I made that number up).  That is until it hits home.


hey I never supported defund anything !

but .... I do think a public defender should TRY like a regular lawyer ... isn't that their job ?

maybe I always thought public defenders were lawyers trying for their clients ... maybe that's where I flawed 

 
hey I never supported defund anything !

but .... I do think a public defender should TRY like a regular lawyer ... isn't that their job ?

maybe I always thought public defenders were lawyers trying for their clients ... maybe that's where I flawed 
Public defenders require public money, i.e. taxes.  Maybe we aren't funding those public defenders enough for them to provide more than a cursory defense due to the overwhelming caseload.  Perhaps if we paid more taxes and funded more public defenders, they would have the ability to provide a better defense for bull#### charges?

 
hey I never supported defund anything !

but .... I do think a public defender should TRY like a regular lawyer ... isn't that their job ?

maybe I always thought public defenders were lawyers trying for their clients ... maybe that's where I flawed 
You have never once in your entire life supported tax cuts?

And the public defender's job is what we allow it to be by providing the resources to that office.    With enough time to allocate to each case being one of those resources.  

 
hey I never supported defund anything !

but .... I do think a public defender should TRY like a regular lawyer ... isn't that their job ?

maybe I always thought public defenders were lawyers trying for their clients ... maybe that's where I flawed 
In my experience there people in all professions that don't give their best effort.  I'm sure there are many hard working, dedicated public defenders that advocate zealously for their clients and some that just do the minimum they are required to do. I do not think that is unique to attorneys or public defenders, nor do I think we can draw any conclusions from one case.

 
it was a little yes

The care you get for the lower end illnesses - like the flu for example - does it matter if you get the care from an ER, a PCP, a local corner med clinic or if you pay $5000 for a specialized care ? not talking murder cases or cancer - just lower end charges/sickness

Same with meat/produce ... we all have access to pretty much the same meats/produce ... on lower/middle class stuff. I mean $5000 bottles of wine and $500 an ounce caviar really isn't equivalent 

"cheap out" ,,,,,,  

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the annual caseload assigned to public defenders spanned from 50 to 590 cases. For comparison, the American Bar Association sets their recommended maximum caseload at 150 felony cases or 400 misdemeanor cases.Jul 25, 2018  There are over 9,139 public defenders currently employed in the United States. 53.0% of all public defenders are women, while only 43.7% are men. The average age of an employed public defender is 45 years old.Sep 9, 2021

Are you saying a lot of people are "cheaping out" by using public defenders ?
The quality of health care and products you buy absolutely relates to how much you pay. 

I think many people don't have options for their legal representation unfortunately. Incidents like you daughter is facing happen all the time. Many of the issues you are bringing up touch on the same issues you hear from very liberal city council members in my city, law professors, civil right lawyers, etc.

 
You have never once in your entire life supported tax cuts?

And the public defender's job is what we allow it to be by providing the resources to that office.    With enough time to allocate to each case being one of those resources.  


you are saying public defenders are police ?

 
I think many people don't have options for their legal representation unfortunately. Incidents like you daughter is facing happen all the time. Many of the issues you are bringing up touch on the same issues you hear from very liberal city council members in my city, law professors, civil right lawyers, etc.


yes

its a great example for younger people, always have money in the bank for times when you need it (work and make right decisions)

or

don't do anything illegal to get into legal trouble to begin with

this was her 1 time Dad helps ... next time she's on her own, she knows that I hope

 
you are saying public defenders are police ?


No!  I'm saying that local governments have limited resources.  You need to divide up those resources between police, public defenders, and health resources.  It seems from your description of what happened that the resources primarily went to the police such they had plenty of time to waste on a minor traffic violation and then to go fishing for other crimes.   From your description it sounds like the public defender's office is stretched thin and thus not providing enough time to the defense of those using those services.   Even the alternative being that they have an office filled with incompetent types just collecting paychecks is evidence that not enough resources are being allocated here.  From your description it sounds like no one even considered for a second that your daughter's case really belonged in the healthcare realm rather than being placed in the criminal justice system.   

While "defund the police" is a terrible moniker in part because it means different things to different people, if we for sake of argument take it to mean determining how those limited resources should be allocated with an obvious bias in believing that  too much has historically gone to policing and not enough to other things (those I mentioned and there are others) then I think your example supports this position that is being obfuscated behind the terrible slogan.   At the very least this experience should cause pause and rethinking.

 
it was a little yes

The care you get for the lower end illnesses - like the flu for example - does it matter if you get the care from an ER, a PCP, a local corner med clinic or if you pay $5000 for a specialized care ? not talking murder cases or cancer - just lower end charges/sickness

Same with meat/produce ... we all have access to pretty much the same meats/produce ... on lower/middle class stuff. I mean $5000 bottles of wine and $500 an ounce caviar really isn't equivalent 

"cheap out" ,,,,,,  

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the annual caseload assigned to public defenders spanned from 50 to 590 cases. For comparison, the American Bar Association sets their recommended maximum caseload at 150 felony cases or 400 misdemeanor cases.Jul 25, 2018  There are over 9,139 public defenders currently employed in the United States. 53.0% of all public defenders are women, while only 43.7% are men. The average age of an employed public defender is 45 years old.Sep 9, 2021

Are you saying a lot of people are "cheaping out" by using public defenders ?


"For comparison, the American Bar Association sets their recommended maximum caseload at 150 felony cases or 400 misdemeanor cases."

These seem like crazy numbers to me.  Is this for one lawyer, or the entire office?

If your private lawyer had 400 misdemeanor cases in a year at $5,000 each, his annual revenue would be $2mil.  Downside is, he probably would not have the time to watch the body cam video for every one of these. 

 
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yes

its a great example for younger people, always have money in the bank for times when you need it (work and make right decisions)

or

don't do anything illegal to get into legal trouble to begin with

this was her 1 time Dad helps ... next time she's on her own, she knows that I hope
I'm not a parent but my parents I know helped me on a few occasions. I imagine this would be one of the toughest parts of being a parent the whole when to help them, when to let them figure it out themselves.

I think you are definitely doing this right here and again good luck to you both.

 
It seems from your description of what happened that the resources primarily went to the police such they had plenty of time to waste on a minor traffic violation and then to go fishing for other crimes.   From your description it sounds like the public defender's office is stretched thin and thus not providing enough time to the defense of those using those services


I'm not sure, I don't know how stretched the police of the public defender is/was - the morning I went with her, the public defender had maybe 6 people he represented, another 6 or 8 of us had lawyers

but yeah, I can't really say how stretched any of them were. This was a small town of 1500 people and a county that isn't very populated. The courthouse was the typical county seat built 120 years ago that looked cool, but the inside was like wood paneling from a 1980's mobile home

 
the public defender had maybe 6 people he represented, another 6 or 8 of us had lawyers
I'm not sure that this is what you are really saying but I can easily read this as -

"The one public defender was handling six cases that day and there were another six or eight cases where one lawyer was handling one case each"

 
"For comparison, the American Bar Association sets their recommended maximum caseload at 150 felony cases or 400 misdemeanor cases."

These seem like crazy numbers to me.  Is this for one lawyer, or the entire office?

If your private lawyer had 400 misdemeanor cases in a year at $5,000 each, his annual revenue would be $2mil.  Downside is, he probably would not have the time to watch the body cam video for every one of these. 
I have never carried more than 25 cases at a time in my career, but I do complex litigation.  I couldn't imagine trying to keep track of that many files.   

 
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I can see the dots but I just don't believe in today's world they connect anymore - money = getting lawyers = getting better legal defense than public defenders give - and I mean MUCH better even with the simplest of cases. 

Anybody can have money - get jobs, make good decisions, work hard, save ..... that's not brown/black/white anymore in any way, shape or form

no critical race theory, no whites are holding blacks back etc and in fact, we have many rules/restrictions etc in place that hinders white people - if there is anything racist right now that can be looked at and pointed to - its racism vs whites

I can't prove this black public defender was racist against my white college daughter - but he sure didn't give a damn to help and if it had been an old fat white public defender and a young black college Sr ?  You can be racism would have been mentioned and even generally accepted

Seriously - turn this entire story around and its a young black person being totally ignored by the white public defender - you'd call it racism to some degree wouldn't ya ?


Completely agree to the bolded.

Do you agree that its easier for people of higher wealth to get jobs and to learn how to make good decisions (including having better role models)?

 
I have never carried more than 25 cases at a time in my career, but I do complex litigation.  I couldn't imagine trying to keep track of that many files.   


I would not want to underwrite the malpractice insurance for a lawyer handling 150 felony cases in one year.  I must be reading that wrong.

 
Do you agree that its easier for people of higher wealth to get jobs and to learn how to make good decisions (including having better role models)?


solid question

yes I'd think having contacts etc makes availability of jobs easier HOWEVER I think there is also strong indicators that silver spoon syndrome is real and having wealth can easily lead to having no work ethic and bad decisions making because hey - they got money to fall back on right ? look no further than Hollywood and how so many of the children growing up in wealth struggle

look at Hunter Biden - a great example of privilege and a life of bad decisions, riding the coattails of his daddy 

 
Stealthycat said:
solid question

yes I'd think having contacts etc makes availability of jobs easier HOWEVER I think there is also strong indicators that silver spoon syndrome is real and having wealth can easily lead to having no work ethic and bad decisions making because hey - they got money to fall back on right ? look no further than Hollywood and how so many of the children growing up in wealth struggle

look at Hunter Biden - a great example of privilege and a life of bad decisions, riding the coattails of his daddy 
I think you're being a little too stereotypical with your views on wealth and how folks that grow up in households where money is no object turn out to be as adults.

I grew up in a household where money (lack thereof) was always a deciding factor in decisions my parents made. My parents tried to instill in me what they felt were good lessons in life regarding wealth or lack thereof. However, not having a safety net to fall back on never stopped me from making some very poor decisions in my life. I have an incredible work ethic, which I did learn from my parents, yet still made poor decisions. I think it would be helpful to your whole world view if you stopped using stereotypes to define and classify others around you. Just because other people do it does not mean it's acceptable or right. Broaden your mind.

 
I think you're being a little too stereotypical with your views on wealth and how folks that grow up in households where money is no object turn out to be as adults.

I grew up in a household where money (lack thereof) was always a deciding factor in decisions my parents made. My parents tried to instill in me what they felt were good lessons in life regarding wealth or lack thereof. However, not having a safety net to fall back on never stopped me from making some very poor decisions in my life. I have an incredible work ethic, which I did learn from my parents, yet still made poor decisions. I think it would be helpful to your whole world view if you stopped using stereotypes to define and classify others around you. Just because other people do it does not mean it's acceptable or right. Broaden your mind.
Stealthy doing that. No way :lol:

J/K SC. Hope you are feeling better.

 
Stealthycat said:
solid question

yes I'd think having contacts etc makes availability of jobs easier HOWEVER I think there is also strong indicators that silver spoon syndrome is real and having wealth can easily lead to having no work ethic and bad decisions making because hey - they got money to fall back on right ? look no further than Hollywood and how so many of the children growing up in wealth struggle

look at Hunter Biden - a great example of privilege and a life of bad decisions, riding the coattails of his daddy 
Anecdata and stereotypes. 

The reality is one of the best predictor of socioeconomic status as an adult is the socioeconomic status (and wealth) of the parents.  The correlation is very strong in the US, but less strong in other developed countries.  In other words economic mobility between generations is low.

 
I think you're being a little too stereotypical with your views on wealth and how folks that grow up in households where money is no object turn out to be as adults.

I grew up in a household where money (lack thereof) was always a deciding factor in decisions my parents made. My parents tried to instill in me what they felt were good lessons in life regarding wealth or lack thereof. However, not having a safety net to fall back on never stopped me from making some very poor decisions in my life. I have an incredible work ethic, which I did learn from my parents, yet still made poor decisions. I think it would be helpful to your whole world view if you stopped using stereotypes to define and classify others around you. Just because other people do it does not mean it's acceptable or right. Broaden your mind.


I don't believe anyone has to be locked into a anything - you made very poor decisions in your life you said - those were yours, nobody else's and your work ethic is yours too. I know parents and role models matter and are important but they're also not the deciding factor either

Personal responsibility - I'll never say those two words enough on forums. 

In other words economic mobility between generations is low.


tying into the above - why ?

why is the mobility low ?

 
In other words economic mobility between generations is low.


tying into the above - why ?

why is the mobility low ?
1. The USA doesn't invest in social safety net or early childhood education like other developed countries.  The cost for childcare in the US is very high and is unsubsidized for the most part.  

2. Race and class are very linked. Systemic racism limits class mobility for those minority groups that are hit with inherent bias and racism.  Example: people with "black" sounding names get fewer callbacks for the same resume than "white" sounding names. Those situations persist even if no one person is consciously acting in a biased manner.

 
Stealthycat said:
Do you agree that its easier for people of higher wealth to get jobs and to learn how to make good decisions (including having better role models)?


solid question

yes I'd think having contacts etc makes availability of jobs easier HOWEVER I think there is also strong indicators that silver spoon syndrome is real and having wealth can easily lead to having no work ethic and bad decisions making because hey - they got money to fall back on right ? look no further than Hollywood and how so many of the children growing up in wealth struggle

look at Hunter Biden - a great example of privilege and a life of bad decisions, riding the coattails of his daddy 
OK.  So on average we agree its easier for people of higher wealth to get jobs and to learn how to make good decisions (including having better role models)?

 
OK.  So on average we agree its easier for people of higher wealth to get jobs and to learn how to make good decisions (including having better role models)?


um .... I think the ability/availability probably yes but every person is their own, making decisions etc

look at Hunter Biden - the body of who he is/was ..... just a disaster of a person if you look at just what he's done. Why? he should be massively successful on his own right? born silver spooned - but instead, drugs have ruled his life and had to live off coattails of his daddy

having good role models matters - absolutely - but that's outside wealth 

don't confuse ethics/morals with wealth - they rarely go hand in hand IMO

 
OK.  So on average we agree its easier for people of higher wealth to get jobs and to learn how to make good decisions (including having better role models)?


um .... I think the ability/availability probably yes but every person is their own, making decisions etc

look at Hunter Biden - the body of who he is/was ..... just a disaster of a person if you look at just what he's done. Why? he should be massively successful on his own right? born silver spooned - but instead, drugs have ruled his life and had to live off coattails of his daddy

having good role models matters - absolutely - but that's outside wealth 

don't confuse ethics/morals with wealth - they rarely go hand in hand IMO


Thank you for the conversation.  There will always be the rare exceptions of bad actors like Hunter Biden and folks like him.  However, I believe them to be the exception, not the rule.

 
Thank you for the conversation.  There will always be the rare exceptions of bad actors like Hunter Biden and folks like him.  However, I believe them to be the exception, not the rule.


I wonder if there was a study done and compared 10,000 top richest kids with 10,000 of the poorest ... who has more ethics? morals? drive for better decision making? 

the rich kids can mess up as much as they want - they got money backing them

the poor kids can mess up as much as they want - they got nothing to lose

 
Personal responsibility - I'll never say those two words enough on forums. 
Not trying to be a #### but if you believed in this you’d have your daughter plead guilty to the charges you yourself has said she’s 100% guilty of and not pay the 5k to use the system to get her off.  What you should be saying is, personal responsibility for others but not when it affects me or mine.  

 
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I wonder if there was a study done and compared 10,000 top richest kids with 10,000 of the poorest ... who has more ethics? morals? drive for better decision making? 

the rich kids can mess up as much as they want - they got money backing them

the poor kids can mess up as much as they want - they got nothing to lose
Money is going to give people more options. It’s pretty simple. 

 
I wonder if there was a study done and compared 10,000 top richest kids with 10,000 of the poorest ... who has more ethics? morals? drive for better decision making

the rich kids can mess up as much as they want - they got money backing them

the poor kids can mess up as much as they want - they got nothing to lose
How would one quantify this for a study?

 
Not trying to be a #### but if you believed in this you’d have your daughter plead guilty to the charges you yourself has said she’s 100% guilty of and not pay the 5k to use the system to get her off.  What you should be saying is, personal responsibility for others but not when it affects me or mine.  
Well, and we may never know this, but if law enforcement did violate his daughter's rights and that is why the defense attorney was able to get it dismissed (because the state probably would have conceded there was a winnable issue and just dismissed instead of going through the motions), then I don't think it's fair to say she "didn't take responsibility" because our system is designed where exclusion is the remedy and the deterrent for unconstitutional state action. 

 
Not trying to be a #### but if you believed in this you’d have your daughter plead guilty to the charges you yourself has said she’s 100% guilty of and not pay the 5k to use the system to get her off.  What you should be saying is, personal responsibility for others but not when it affects me or mine.  


ahhh that's the quandy of life isn't it ?

you try and help your kids, give them second chances etc ........ call me a #### or a bad Dad if you'd like, I'll take those words and wake up well tomorrow knowing I tried to do what was best for my daughter

will I again ? likely not 

 
How would one quantify this for a study?


I don't know

I know that a lot of people born into wealth do nothing with their lives, a lot of people born into poverty succeed, a lot of people with 2 parents make horrible decisions/lives and a lot of people without parents are fine decision makers and excel

funny how people make choices and live their lives isn't it ?

 
ahhh that's the quandy of life isn't it ?

you try and help your kids, give them second chances etc ........ call me a #### or a bad Dad if you'd like, I'll take those words and wake up well tomorrow knowing I tried to do what was best for my daughter

will I again ? likely not 
FWIW I don't think you did anything wrong here. 

 
ahhh that's the quandy of life isn't it ?

you try and help your kids, give them second chances etc ........ call me a #### or a bad Dad if you'd like, I'll take those words and wake up well tomorrow knowing I tried to do what was best for my daughter

will I again ? likely not 
As a father of a daughter myself I’m not judging your actions. I’d do the same. I’m just merely pointing out again where your vision and perspective is narrow. I would hope something like this would not just open your eyes up to the legal system perceptions but all the other perceptions that have been pretty close minded, in my opinion, you’ve expressed. Personal responsibility isn’t as simple as you like to make it out. This is a perfect example. 

 
FWIW I don't think you did anything wrong here. 
I don’t either. That’s not the point I was making. But SC has a long history of it being black or white, no pun intended, in regards to personal responsibility. I’m merely pointing out it’s not so.

 
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I wonder if there was a study done and compared 10,000 top richest kids with 10,000 of the poorest ... who has more ethics? morals? drive for better decision making? 

the rich kids can mess up as much as they want - they got money backing them

the poor kids can mess up as much as they want - they got nothing to lose
I can tell you one thing.  The poor kids likely will pay a far worse penalty for their mistakes, as you have experienced.  And being that they are likely in communities surrounded by greater poverty, which likely means worse schools, less resources to keep the kids out of trouble, less positive role models, etc etc, i don't think you need a study to know why its by light years more difficult for poor kids to improve upward mobility, stay out of trouble, get an education, etc.  Not impossible, just way more difficult. 

 
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I can tell you one thing.  The poor kids likely will pay a far worse penalty for their mistakes, as you have experienced.  And being that they are likely in communities surrounded by greater poverty, which likely means worse schools, less resources to keep the kids out of trouble, less positive role models, etc etc, i don't think you need a study to know why its by light years more difficult for poor kids to improve upward mobility, stay out of trouble, get an education, etc.  Not impossible, just way more difficult. 


well since I was one of the kids growing up in poverty, a worse school, very little resources etc ..... I don't have to study it

I lived it

 

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