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Who should be the 2021 MVP favorite? (1 Viewer)

Who should be the 2021 MVP favorite?

  • Aaron Rodgers

    Votes: 35 25.9%

  • Tom Brady

    Votes: 17 12.6%

  • Jonathan Taylor

    Votes: 59 43.7%

  • Justin Herbert

    Votes: 2 1.5%

  • Matthew Stafford

    Votes: 3 2.2%

  • Patrick Mahomes

    Votes: 4 3.0%

  • Other

    Votes: 15 11.1%
  • Total voters
    135
DropKick said:
145 receptions for almost 2,000 yards and 16 TDs doesn't get you a shot?

It's just about averaging 8 for 110 and a TD, every week.

I'd vote for Kupp.
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No, it doesn't. There are a number of QBs who are much more valuable to their teams, although the only ones that matter for purposes of this discussion are Rodgers and Brady.

 
Just Win Baby said:
No, it doesn't. There are a number of QBs who are much more valuable to their teams, although the only ones that matter for purposes of this discussion are Rodgers and Brady.
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The poll results have Jonathan Taylor with more votes that Rodgers and Brady, combined.  So, there is considerable sentiment that this shouldn't be a QB centric award.

Taylor leaves the discussion with the Colt's missing the playoffs and Kupp's stellar season was on par with Taylor.

Not that its completely fair, but neither Rodgers or Brady did anything we didn't expect in 2021.

 
Just Win Baby said:
No, it doesn't. There are a number of QBs who are much more valuable to their teams, although the only ones that matter for purposes of this discussion are Rodgers and Brady.
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not more valuable than the owner who makes arrangements to pay them or how about the guys who drafted them

 
DropKick said:
145 receptions for almost 2,000 yards and 16 TDs doesn't get you a shot?

It's just about averaging 8 for 110 and a TD, every week.

I'd vote for


Kupp


.
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you can vote kupp all you want, but he still has no shot to win this award based on who is voting.  He won't even get 10% of the votes, guaranteed.

 
DropKick said:
The poll results have Jonathan Taylor with more votes that Rodgers and Brady, combined.  So, there is considerable sentiment that this shouldn't be a QB centric award.

Taylor leaves the discussion with the Colt's missing the playoffs and Kupp's stellar season was on par with Taylor.

Not that its completely fair, but neither Rodgers or Brady did anything we didn't expect in 2021.
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Keep in mind that a lot of those votes came early on, I believe, and I wonder how many of those people who voted for Taylor 2-3 weeks ago would still be voting for him after the Colts pooped the bed and missed the playoffs. 

Rodgers and Brady not doing anything we didn't expect is irrelevant.  The MVP is not for "best player who exceeded expectations."  Holding it against Brady and Rodgers because they were great like they always are would be unfair. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
Keep in mind that a lot of those votes came early on, I believe, and I wonder how many of those people who voted for Taylor 2-3 weeks ago would still be voting for him after the Colts pooped the bed and missed the playoffs. 

Rodgers and Brady not doing anything we didn't expect is irrelevant.  The MVP is not for "best player who exceeded expectations."  Holding it against Brady and Rodgers because they were great like they always are would be unfair. 
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Well aware of the timing of the poll... and acknowledged the Colt's swoon would disqualify Taylor. The point being that many people aren't locked in to having to pick a QB, easily the most glorified position, as the MVP. 

I also stated it "wasn't completely fair" so I'm not sure why you're echoing that back to me. 

And why discount "exceeding expectations" so easily?  The team lost Akers and Woods to serious injury and Kupp responded with 145 catches, for 1,947 yards and 16 TDs.  That is smashing expectations...   In fact, it's probably a top 5 season, all time, by a WR!

 
DropKick said:
Well aware of the timing of the poll... and acknowledged the Colt's swoon would disqualify Taylor. The point being that many people aren't locked in to having to pick a QB, easily the most glorified position, as the MVP. 

I also stated it "wasn't completely fair" so I'm not sure why you're echoing that back to me. 

And why discount "exceeding expectations" so easily?  The team lost Akers and Woods to serious injury and Kupp responded with 145 catches, for 1,947 yards and 16 TDs.  That is smashing expectations...   In fact, it's probably a top 5 season, all time, by a WR!
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I am discounting expectations because they are essentially meaningless in this context.  Coach of the Year usually goes to the coach whose team exceeded expectations by a good margin, but the MVP almost always goes to a player who was expected to be great, but was exceptionally great, and on a team that probably finished as one of the best in their conference.  There are exceptions, like Adrian Peterson in 2012, but by and large that is usually the case. 

Kupp had an amazing season for sure, one that almost feels like is not getting talked about enough, but, and this is just my opinion, WRs are not very high on the "what positions are the most valuable?" scale.  A WR has never been the NFL MVP for a reason, despite the fact that arguably the best player in NFL history (Jerry Rice) was a WR.  QBs are just inherently far more valuable, and when guys like Rodgers and Brady put up seasons like they did, it is nearly impossible to not give it to one of those two guys. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
I am discounting expectations because they are essentially meaningless in this context.  Coach of the Year usually goes to the coach whose team exceeded expectations by a good margin, but the MVP almost always goes to a player who was expected to be great, but was exceptionally great, and on a team that probably finished as one of the best in their conference.  There are exceptions, like Adrian Peterson in 2012, but by and large that is usually the case. 

Kupp had an amazing season for sure, one that almost feels like is not getting talked about enough, but, and this is just my opinion, WRs are not very high on the "what positions are the most valuable?" scale.  A WR has never been the NFL MVP for a reason, despite the fact that arguably the best player in NFL history (Jerry Rice) was a WR.  QBs are just inherently far more valuable, and when guys like Rodgers and Brady put up seasons like they did, it is nearly impossible to not give it to one of those two guys. 
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:goodposting:

 
Ghost Rider said:
I am discounting expectations because they are essentially meaningless in this context.  Coach of the Year usually goes to the coach whose team exceeded expectations by a good margin, but the MVP almost always goes to a player who was expected to be great, but was exceptionally great, and on a team that probably finished as one of the best in their conference.  There are exceptions, like Adrian Peterson in 2012, but by and large that is usually the case. 

Kupp had an amazing season for sure, one that almost feels like is not getting talked about enough, but, and this is just my opinion, WRs are not very high on the "what positions are the most valuable?" scale.  A WR has never been the NFL MVP for a reason, despite the fact that arguably the best player in NFL history (Jerry Rice) was a WR.  QBs are just inherently far more valuable, and when guys like Rodgers and Brady put up seasons like they did, it is nearly impossible to not give it to one of those two guys. 
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I'm aware of the fixation with QBs. I'd be shocked if Kupp won or even came close.  Doesn't make it right.

How much of a boost to a team is it when a guy contributes 50-80% above and beyond what was expected? 

Check the bolded above and tell me why that doesn't describe Kupp's season.   For extra credit, find me a WR who ever had a more productive season than Kupp in 2021.

It was the second most receptions ever by a receiver.  Michael Thomas had 149 to Kupp's 145.

It was the second most yards ever by a receiver.  Calvin Johnson had 1,964 to Kupp's 1,947.

He led the league in receiving TDs with 16, which is rare air.  Only two receivers, Rice and Moss have ever caught more than 18.

 
DropKick said:
I'm aware of the fixation with QBs. I'd be shocked if Kupp won or even came close.  Doesn't make it right.

How much of a boost to a team is it when a guy contributes 50-80% above and beyond what was expected? 

Check the bolded above and tell me why that doesn't describe Kupp's season.   For extra credit, find me a WR who ever had a more productive season than Kupp in 2021.

It was the second most receptions ever by a receiver.  Michael Thomas had 149 to Kupp's 145.

It was the second most yards ever by a receiver.  Calvin Johnson had 1,964 to Kupp's 1,947.

He led the league in receiving TDs with 16, which is rare air.  Only two receivers, Rice and Moss have ever caught more than 18.
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Okay, but on a per game average, Kupp's average of 115 yards per game is only 10th best all-time for a season.  Having 17 games allowed him to boost the total number up a bit. 

36 players have caught 15 TDs or more in a season (which is what Kupp's average would have been without the 17th game). 

Receptions are a crazy, off the chart stat, and I do not personally consider that an important stat, in relative terms. 

Kupp had an awesome year, but was it the best season a WR ever had? No. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
Okay, but on a per game average, Kupp's average of 115 yards per game is only 10th best all-time for a season.  Having 17 games allowed him to boost the total number up a bit. 

36 players have caught 15 TDs or more in a season (which is what Kupp's average would have been without the 17th game). 

Receptions are a crazy, off the chart stat, and I do not personally consider that an important stat, in relative terms. 

Kupp had an awesome year, but was it the best season a WR ever had? No. 
Click to expand...
Sure, the receptions aren't important... until they result in almost 2,000 yards and 16 scores.

So Kupp's was 10th All TIme in yards per game and Rodger's yardage this season, was 10th in the league this season.

Moss had 23 TDs and 500 less yards than Kupp.

Rice had 22 TDs and 900 less yards than Kupp.

Adams had 18 TDs and 600 less yards than Kupp.

Rice's best season of 122/1848/15 is less then Kupp's 2021 in receptions, yards and TDs.

This is my last post on the topic.  Not to be overly stubborn, but I'm trying to put these numbers into an historical perspective.  The season has progressively gotten longer (you have to stay healthy) and the rules continue to favor offense.  However, I think you would be hard pressed to find a more productive season.

 
DropKick said:
Sure, the receptions aren't important... until they result in almost 2,000 yards and 16 scores.

So Kupp's was 10th All TIme in yards per game and Rodger's yardage this season, was 10th in the league this season.

Moss had 23 TDs and 500 less yards than Kupp.

Rice had 22 TDs and 900 less yards than Kupp.

Adams had 18 TDs and 600 less yards than Kupp.

Rice's best season of 122/1848/15 is less then Kupp's 2021 in receptions, yards and TDs.

This is my last post on the topic.  Not to be overly stubborn, but I'm trying to put these numbers into an historical perspective.  The season has progressively gotten longer (you have to stay healthy) and the rules continue to favor offense.  However, I think you would be hard pressed to find a more productive season.
Click to expand...
Putting it into a historical perspective:

Rice's 122/1848/15 is more impressive than what Kupp did this year. He had 1 fewer game, and illegal contact wasn't really a thing then. Neither were helmet to helmet flags, and even PI(while called) was 10X more lenient. 

I'm going in the way back machine here, but the best WR season in my opinion is Elroy(crazy legs) Hirsch in 1951. He had 7 more catches, 669 more yards, 2.3 YPC, and 5 TDs more than any other WR that season. He had 1495-17 in 12 games.

Don Hutson's 1942 deserves a mention as well. He had more than double the catches, yards, and TDs of any WR that year. 1211-17 in 11 games. 

 
best player...?....MVP.......?..would you take me over Mahomes or Brady right now to win a game....did I put my team in jeopardy of losing games (like against KC) by misleading and violating protocol...?.....could have cost us HFA and maybe a shot at the SB.....lucky it wasn't more games....while I was thinking about myself and my agenda.....am I a true team leader..?.....if you really talk about the most valuable player.... am I the definition......?.... bet some of Rodgers teammates aren't checking some of those boxes...tough guy to follow into battle IMO....

 
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DropKick said:
Sure, the receptions aren't important... until they result in almost 2,000 yards and 16 scores.

So Kupp's was 10th All TIme in yards per game and Rodger's yardage this season, was 10th in the league this season.

Moss had 23 TDs and 500 less yards than Kupp.

Rice had 22 TDs and 900 less yards than Kupp.

Adams had 18 TDs and 600 less yards than Kupp.

Rice's best season of 122/1848/15 is less then Kupp's 2021 in receptions, yards and TDs.

This is my last post on the topic.  Not to be overly stubborn, but I'm trying to put these numbers into an historical perspective.  The season has progressively gotten longer (you have to stay healthy) and the rules continue to favor offense.  However, I think you would be hard pressed to find a more productive season.
Click to expand...
Does a historically great season at every position (e.g., WR, TE, T, G, C, DE, DT, LB, CB) warrant MVP? That was a rhetorical question, since the answer is obviously no.

It is obvious to me that QB inherently has much, much greater impact than any other position, and it's not close.

  • Look at the Packers with Rodgers out. Terrible without him; night and day.
  • Look at the effect of Wilson's injury on the Seahawks. Season ruined.
  • Contrast the Bengals season last year, mostly without Burrow, to this season with Burrow. Terrible record without, division winner with him.
  • Look at the Ravens with Jackson hurt. Missed playoffs.
  • Look at the Steelers with Roethlisberger a shell of his former self. Backed into playoffs and blown out.
The way the NFL game is designed, schemed, and officiated today, there is no way any other position can have the same impact as QB, and it's not close. So there is no way that a WR could be objectively judged to be more valuable than every QB in the league, which is what would be required for Kupp to win MVP.

There is no question he was not as valuable as a large number of QBs in the league, but we don't have to go any farther than the top two - Rodgers and Brady.

 
travdogg said:
Putting it into a historical perspective:

Rice's 122/1848/15 is more impressive than what Kupp did this year. He had 1 fewer game, and illegal contact wasn't really a thing then. Neither were helmet to helmet flags, and even PI(while called) was 10X more lenient. 

I'm going in the way back machine here, but the best WR season in my opinion is Elroy(crazy legs) Hirsch in 1951. He had 7 more catches, 669 more yards, 2.3 YPC, and 5 TDs more than any other WR that season. He had 1495-17 in 12 games.

Don Hutson's 1942 deserves a mention as well. He had more than double the catches, yards, and TDs of any WR that year. 1211-17 in 11 games. 
Click to expand...
You guys keep doing this to me.... I literally state the season is longer and rules have relaxed favoring offenses in my post.

I don't disagree with you about Rice... and the game was very different in the 40s and 50s.  However, any "better" seasons are few and between, which should show that this ranks among the all time WR seasons.  I think I originally called it top 5.

 
travdogg said:
Putting it into a historical perspective:

Rice's 122/1848/15 is more impressive than what Kupp did this year. He had 1 fewer game, and illegal contact wasn't really a thing then. Neither were helmet to helmet flags, and even PI(while called) was 10X more lenient. 

I'm going in the way back machine here, but the best WR season in my opinion is Elroy(crazy legs) Hirsch in 1951. He had 7 more catches, 669 more yards, 2.3 YPC, and 5 TDs more than any other WR that season. He had 1495-17 in 12 games.

Don Hutson's 1942 deserves a mention as well. He had more than double the catches, yards, and TDs of any WR that year. 1211-17 in 11 games. 
Click to expand...
Not really anything to contribute to the conversation here, but my dad was a Packer fan his whole life, barnstormed back in the day with a couple of the Brooklyn Dodger players and he always said that Don Hutson was the best athlete he ever saw. This included man of the Packers of the 60s, and many of their great WRs they've had since like Sterling Sharpe, James Lofton, Greg Jennings. Dad said he'd take Hutson over any of them. Hutson never gets the credit he deserves. He scored 99 career TDs, a record that stood for over 4 decades, in a league that didn't throw the ball. When he retired he held 18 NFL records.

I now return you to your regularly schedule debate

 
Just Win Baby said:
Does a historically great season at every position (e.g., WR, TE, T, G, C, DE, DT, LB, CB) warrant MVP? That was a rhetorical question, since the answer is obviously no.

It is obvious to me that QB inherently has much, much greater impact than any other position, and it's not close.

  • Look at the Packers with Rodgers out. Terrible without him; night and day.
  • Look at the effect of Wilson's injury on the Seahawks. Season ruined.
  • Contrast the Bengals season last year, mostly without Burrow, to this season with Burrow. Terrible record without, division winner with him.
  • Look at the Ravens with Jackson hurt. Missed playoffs.
  • Look at the Steelers with Roethlisberger a shell of his former self. Backed into playoffs and blown out.
The way the NFL game is designed, schemed, and officiated today, there is no way any other position can have the same impact as QB, and it's not close. So there is no way that a WR could be objectively judged to be more valuable than every QB in the league, which is what would be required for Kupp to win MVP.

There is no question he was not as valuable as a large number of QBs in the league, but we don't have to go any farther than the top two - Rodgers and Brady.
Click to expand...


It is the most glorified position, certainly.   But I actually think you undermine your argument with the point that ANY team that loses its QB is not the same.    Where would the Bills be without Allen... or the Chiefs with Mahomes, etc.     Was Rodgers really that much more valuable to his team than Allen to the Bills?

Yes, I'd like to think a historically great season would be recognized.  It once was for Lawrence Taylor so I'm not sure why you're talking in absolutes.  Will they ever recognize a WR?  Probably not.  They're not handling the ball often enough and the average fan/media does not quantify blocking and other things you do without the ball.  

I'll leave you with the fact that we once had a place kicker as the MVP.  So, never say never.

 
KingPrawn said:
Not really anything to contribute to the conversation here, but my dad was a Packer fan his whole life, barnstormed back in the day with a couple of the Brooklyn Dodger players and he always said that Don Hutson was the best athlete he ever saw. This included man of the Packers of the 60s, and many of their great WRs they've had since like Sterling Sharpe, James Lofton, Greg Jennings. Dad said he'd take Hutson over any of them. Hutson never gets the credit he deserves. He scored 99 career TDs, a record that stood for over 4 decades, in a league that didn't throw the ball. When he retired he held 18 NFL records.

I now return you to your regularly schedule debate
Click to expand...
Hutson gets recognized fairly often on this board.

 
DropKick said:
I'll leave you with the fact that we once had a place kicker as the MVP.  So, never say never.
Click to expand...
And that occurred in a 9 game season due to the 1982 strike, which made it a very unusual situation. More importantly, it was a mistake that I expect is recognized as such and will never be repeated. So I don't think it really bears at all on who should/will win MVP this season.

 
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DropKick said:
It is the most glorified position, certainly.   But I actually think you undermine your argument with the point that ANY team that loses its QB is not the same.    Where would the Bills be without Allen... or the Chiefs with Mahomes, etc.     
Click to expand...
Yes, this is why I said this:

There is no question he was not as valuable as a large number of QBs in the league, but we don't have to go any farther than the top two - Rodgers and Brady.
Click to expand...
As for this:

DropKick said:
Was Rodgers really that much more valuable to his team than Allen to the Bills?
Click to expand...
The answer to this is yes. Rodgers was more valuable because his actual QB play was better and because he led his team to the #1 record in the NFL. That said, if we ranked a top 5 list for MVP, Allen would be a candidate for the top 5, just not top 2 IMO.

 
Just Win Baby said:
And that occurred in a 9 game season due to the 1982 strike, which made it a very unusual situation. More importantly, it was a mistake that I expect is recognized as such and will never be repeated. So I don't think it really bears at all on who should/will win MVP this season.
Click to expand...
Of course it is unusual.  But it happened.  It was more of a response to your "no way, no how" mentality.

 
DropKick said:
Of course it is unusual.  But it happened.  It was more of a response to your "no way, no how" mentality.
Click to expand...
OK, I concede that if the league loses nearly half the season to strike, pandemic, or other reason, it creates more of a wild card scenario where a non-QB could win.

Not seeing how that matters at all to the subject of discussion.

 
Just Win Baby said:
OK, I concede that if the league loses nearly half the season to strike, pandemic, or other reason, it creates more of a wild card scenario where a non-QB could win.

Not seeing how that matters at all to the subject of discussion.
Click to expand...
Can you admit the award pretty much sucks if all you can do is award it to a QB?

 
lets just keep pretending like Mahomes isn't the best/most valuable player in the league.....keep finding reasons not to give it to him....(cause hes young and he will win more so lets give it to others now, he'll get his later)....while he keeps getting huge dubs....

 
BassNBrew said:
Maybe we should revisit this before Kupp laps the field a second time
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We could do that if the MVP award covered the playoffs... but it doesn't. Even if it did, and even if we chose not to give it to Brady or Rodgers because they lost (in which case Allen would also presumably be out), Mahomes would be next. :shrug:  

 
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BassNBrew said:
Maybe we should revisit this before Kupp laps the field a second time
Click to expand...


Stinkin Ref said:
lets just keep pretending like Mahomes isn't the best/most valuable player in the league.....keep finding reasons not to give it to him....(cause hes young and he will win more so lets give it to others now, he'll get his later)....while he keeps getting huge dubs....
Click to expand...


DropKick said:
I stand by my earlier argument that Kupp and Josh Allen are as deserving as Rodgers/Brady.
Click to expand...
This week means nothing.  The voting is already over.  Why can't people comprehend this.

 
DropKick said:
People can comprehend it... keep your panties on.

Perhaps the play-offs lets people watch teams they don't watch on a regular basis.
Click to expand...
but Allen's performances in the playoffs don't mean anything for the award.

Brady has more yards, higher completion percentage, more tds, less ints, and a better team record.  Could you tell me where Allen was as deserving than Brady for this award?

 
Just Win Baby said:
We could do that if the MVP award covered the playoffs... but it doesn't. Even if it did, and even if we chose not to give it to Brady or Rodgers because they lost (in which case Allen would also presumably be out), Mahomes would be next. :shrug:  
Click to expand...


Keep reaching.  I understand the player must have aQB after their name for you to consider them.  I'm just suggesting the the best player in the league that help his team get to the playoff is the most deserving.  

Deamon said:
This week means nothing.  The voting is already over.  Why can't people comprehend this.
Click to expand...


I comprehend.  This week just validated that one play dominated all year.

 
BassNBrew said:
Keep reaching.  I understand the player must have aQB after their name for you to consider them.  I'm just suggesting the the best player in the league that help his team get to the playoff is the most deserving.  

I comprehend.  This week just validated that one play dominated all year.
Click to expand...
huh?

 
BassNBrew said:
Did you see Kupp's numbers relative to Brady and Rodgers?
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Ah I just didn't understand your post with the typo but now I get it.

Ya Kupp's numbers were fantastic.  He should win Offensive Player of the Year.  The MVP award isn't going to go to a WR on a 4 seed team.  Just not the way it works.  He doesn't deserve MVP based on how the award is given out... hate the criteria if you want, but that's how it is and Kupp has zero shot.

 
Deamon said:
Ah I just didn't understand your post with the typo but now I get it.

Ya Kupp's numbers were fantastic.  He should win Offensive Player of the Year.  The MVP award isn't going to go to a WR on a 4 seed team.  Just not the way it works.  He doesn't deserve MVP based on how the award is given out... hate the criteria if you want, but that's how it is and Kupp has zero shot.
Click to expand...


Not trying to be a smart ###, can can you point me to the criteria as I've never read it.

 
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