What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (3 Viewers)

I guess there's a distinction here between citizens trying to repel an invading army (probably not happening) vs. citizens trying to repel an occupying force.  Would your average person leave his family behind to go fight against an amphibious invasion of San Diego?  Probably not.  Would the US be a fun country to try occupy?  No.  Being armed to the teeth is a real thing that matters for that type of situation.

 
I think there are a lot of folks that would like to think they would go all Wolverine but in truth, probably 10% or less of the population would engage in defense of their community let alone go someplace within the country to try to defend against an invasion. And I'd also guess that a good portion would be former service members. My guess, no scientific numbers.

I could and would attempt to defend my home, not sure my reaction to having to leave and go defend Miami or Houston.

There is a portion of our population that will rise up and surprise folks if the time ever comes. I think we would all like to consider ourselves a part of that group but in truth that number is infinitesimally small. Knowing you a bit from around the board, I have no doubt you wouldn't hesitate. I hope that I and many more would be as convinced but honestly I don't know.
Good post. Never really know till you face it, I guess.

You get inspired, tho. I saw a guy asking a 25 year old woman taking shelter in the Kyiv subway tunnels what she wanted to do today

"Make Molotov cocktails"

 
Good post. Never really know till you face it, I guess.

You get inspired, tho. I saw a guy asking a 25 year old woman taking shelter in the Kyiv subway tunnels what she wanted to do today

"Make Molotov cocktails"
Coined by the Finns in the 1940 Winter War when they were kicking Russia’s ###. The pejorative was named after Stalin’s scumbag foreign minister.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Good post. Never really know till you face it, I guess.

You get inspired, tho. I saw a guy asking a 25 year old woman taking shelter in the Kyiv subway tunnels what she wanted to do today

"Make Molotov cocktails"
Yep.  There's a lot that ordinary people with no special skills or training can do to make life miserable for an occupying force.  It's like people in this thread slept through the Iraq occupation or something.

Edit: The OSS literally put out a handbook on this exact subject during WWII.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Had no idea Sweeden wasn't part of NATO.  
They've been traditionally neutral in world affairs, though somewhat lower-key about it than Switzerland. Ireland is kind of the same way, and is also not in NATO.

I was surprised to learn that Austria wasn't in NATO.

 
They haven't knocked out any air defense system, they haven't taken control of any population centers, internet all working, the freaking Ukrainian army is updating their Instagram page! (@psd_info)

There is more cell phone video coming from Ukraine than a KPop concert, some of which might be used to prove war crimes later on. 1/3 of the forces along the border with Ukraine are in the country all ready. 

I am open to the idea that the bubble Putin has placed himself in is really showing itself now in the shoddy planning and execution of the early part of this attack. I have no doubt Russia can defeat Ukraine, but I am not sure Putin has a real grasp on the damage to his own country, or the repercussions.

Yep.  There's a lot that ordinary people with no special skills or training can do to make life miserable for an occupying force.  It's like people in this thread slept through the Iraq occupation or something.
:Watches Charlie Wilson's War again:

 
I guess there's a distinction here between citizens trying to repel an invading army (probably not happening) vs. citizens trying to repel an occupying force.  Would your average person leave his family behind to go fight against an amphibious invasion of San Diego?  Probably not.  Would the US be a fun country to try occupy?  No.  Being armed to the teeth is a real thing that matters for that type of situation.


The other thing that matters is history.  It's been 200+ years since a foreign country occupied a portion of Continental USA. Ukraine has had that experience much more recently (and repeatedly)

 
I’m always surprised how few Americans (i.e., average knowledge folks, not the exceptional who hang out here) know about the Holodomor

Among the many reasons why Ukrainians don’t share Vlad’s wistful memories of the good ole days.


The other thing that matters is history.  It's been 200+ years since a foreign country occupied a portion of Continental USA. Ukraine has had that experience much more recently (and repeatedly)


I know very little about the history of that part of the world, so listened to this podcast yesterday, a great overview of their history.  Man they've had it rough over the centuries, especially the 20th.  Looking forward to listening to another one on an early chapter of their history (Vikings!) during this afternoon's dog walk.

 
They haven't knocked out any air defense system, they haven't taken control of any population centers, internet all working, the freaking Ukrainian army is updating their Instagram page! (@psd_info)

There is more cell phone video coming from Ukraine than a KPop concert, some of which might be used to prove war crimes later on. 1/3 of the forces along the border with Ukraine are in the country all ready. 

I am open to the idea that the bubble Putin has placed himself in is really showing itself now in the shoddy planning and execution of the early part of this attack. I have no doubt Russia can defeat Ukraine, but I am not sure Putin has a real grasp on the damage to his own country, or the repercussions.
I want to believe in this, but I think we have to wait a few days or weeks to really know what's happening.

I do agree that if the Ukrainians commit to making life miserable for Russia they can do it.  Putin might be willing to make Kyiv look like Aleppo, but the rest of the world is going to react very differently than it did when it happened in Syria.  (for some good reasons and some not so good reasons)

 
I’m always surprised how few Americans (i.e., average knowledge folks, not the exceptional who hang out here) know about the Holodomor

Among the many reasons why Ukrainians don’t share Vlad’s wistful memories of the good ole days.
Anne Applebaum, who knows a thing or two about that part of the world, wrote a book about this that was released in 2017, The Red Famine.  

 
I’m not surprised. They run their military in a half-assed slipshod manner. Manifestation of a system rotten to its core.
And Stalin shot himself in the foot in the run up to WW II just because he had to see a communist traitor under every rock.  He could've used a few of those dead generals at the start of Barbarossa.

 
And Stalin shot himself in the foot in the run up to WW II just because he had to see a communist traitor under every rock.  He could've used a few of those dead generals at the start of Barbarossa.
It was insane, peak Stalin paranoia.

The purge of the Red Army and Military Maritime Fleet removed three of five marshals (then equivalent to four-star generals), 13 of 15 army commanders (then equivalent to three-star generals), eight of nine admirals (the purge fell heavily on the Navy, who were suspected of exploiting their opportunities for foreign contacts), 50 of 57 army corps commanders, 154 out of 186 division commanders, 16 of 16 army commissars, and 25 of 28 army corps commissars.

Generally referred to as the Great Purge / Great Terror of 1937, the purge of 1936-38 saw 700K executions. Factoring in the deaths while in the Gulag prison system, might have been as high as 1.2M.

There is nothing comparable in the west that we can compare to the bloodthirsty history of communist Russia / USSR. Unless you reach back to examine the bloodthirsty Czarist regimes which preceded them.

 
I remember hearing about the Red Army during the Soviet days, clearly that’s no longer the case.
Tough propping up the #2 military with the 11th ranked economy. 6th ranked worked force size, 5th most billionaires. Obviously the kleptocracy works well for a few.

 
I want to believe in this, but I think we have to wait a few days or weeks to really know what's happening.

I do agree that if the Ukrainians commit to making life miserable for Russia they can do it.  Putin might be willing to make Kyiv look like Aleppo, but the rest of the world is going to react very differently than it did when it happened in Syria.  (for some good reasons and some not so good reasons)


I don't think Russia is going full-tilt at all.  Total annihilation doesn't accomplish anything for them.  

 
What if the Ukrainians never surrender and just keep picking them off one at a time day after day?


I mean what is surrender in this context?  They seem to want to be staging a coup, once you get the top 40ish people out of power dead or alive it's an occupation, not a white flag.

 
That puppet government wouldn't last very long, I suspect.  Russians will have to stay, in force.
My guess is they at least annex/occupy Donbas (all of area Putin has declared independent) to give them a foothold.

Then maybe install one of the friendlies from there into Kyiv like a decade ago.

 
When Apple cuts them off you know it's serious.  It was on the table a bit ago, haven't heard if they intend to go forward with it.

 
fascinating history sidebar (unrelated to current events)

Ukrainian Waffen SS Mutiny - France 1944

Many Ukrainians welcomed their Nazi invaders as liberators. An 11,000 man division was formed and eventually ended up on the Franco-German border. Their officers and NCOs were largely German and they treated the Ukrainians with contempt. A battalion of 800+ murdered their Nazi officers and joined the French resistance. Some would go on to join the French Foreign Legion and went on to fight in French Indochina (today’s Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam.)

ASIDE - Mark Felton, who published this today, is a British historian/professor and fantastic content provider. Most of his YouTube videos are about obscure WWII events. Endlessly entertaining.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Someone mentioned Javelins earlier.

Ukrainian account sent pics of these Bad Boys that had just arrived.

Also, Cheerful Ukrainian Solider sends message to Russian military.
That guy has a solid point. Why fight for a madman who doesn’t care if you live or die? Besides, you’re on hostile soil, with an enemy who has better training, not to mention a very good reason to make your stay both short and miserable.

 
This just in: Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy and Russian president Vladimir Putin are discussing a place and time to hold talks, according to a spokesperson for Zelenskiy.

The spokesperson also added that Ukraine is ready to talk about peace and a possible ceasefire, Reuters further reported.

Earlier today, the US State department cast doubts about whether Russia had legitimate plans for diplomacy, saying that Russia must stop bombing Ukraine first.

“Now we see Moscow suggesting that diplomacy take place at the barrel of a gun, or as Moscow’s rockets, mortars, artillery target the Ukrainian people,” said State department spokesperson Ned Price. “This is not real diplomacy. Those are not the conditions for real diplomacy.”

Let's say Russia doesn't know where Zelensky is now. I would never put him anywhere where Russia knew what building he was in. Putin sent operatives into a NATO country with flipping nerve gas. Let's not risk underestimating his daring. I am really not trying to hear, 'Oh, Putin would never do that' about pretty much anything right now. 

 
Here's a news channel interview with my faculty colleague who was born in Russia but moved with her family to Crimea when she was 10.  She left in 2015, which she explains near the end of the interview.  You might skip forward to 3:05.  The reporter calls up a couple slides from a recent presentation she gave (on our campus).  It shows how Crimean imports and exports dropped by about 90% once Russia took over.  Also, the number of banks dropped from something like 36 to 2.  Tourism, too, dried up.  As she explains toward the end, they only care about military support in Crimea.

 
This just in: Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy and Russian president Vladimir Putin are discussing a place and time to hold talks, according to a spokesperson for Zelenskiy.

The spokesperson also added that Ukraine is ready to talk about peace and a possible ceasefire, Reuters further reported.

Earlier today, the US State department cast doubts about whether Russia had legitimate plans for diplomacy, saying that Russia must stop bombing Ukraine first.

“Now we see Moscow suggesting that diplomacy take place at the barrel of a gun, or as Moscow’s rockets, mortars, artillery target the Ukrainian people,” said State department spokesperson Ned Price. “This is not real diplomacy. Those are not the conditions for real diplomacy.”

Let's say Russia doesn't know where Zelensky is now. I would never put him anywhere where Russia knew what building he was in. Putin sent operatives into a NATO country with flipping nerve gas. Let's not risk underestimating his daring. I am really not trying to hear, 'Oh, Putin would never do that' about pretty much anything right now. 
Id guess Zelensky is smart enough to know that.  That it must be brokered with an intermediary to secure safety.

 
Id guess Zelensky is smart enough to know that.  That it must be brokered with an intermediary to secure safety.
I agree, he knows he’s a target, why put himself in a position where he’s now an easy target? Furthermore, aren’t peace talks usually carried out by intermediaries anyway? How dumb do the Russians think everyone else is?

 
Here's a news channel interview with my faculty colleague who was born in Russia but moved with her family to Crimea when she was 10.  She left in 2015, which she explains near the end of the interview.  You might skip forward to 3:05.  The reporter calls up a couple slides from a recent presentation she gave (on our campus).  It shows how Crimean imports and exports dropped by about 90% once Russia took over.  Also, the number of banks dropped from something like 36 to 2.  Tourism, too, dried up.  As she explains toward the end, they only care about military support in Crimea.
Historically the Russian Navy had four primary fleets: the Baltic (Kaliningrad), the Northern (Murmansk & Severomorsk - Berents Sea, by far the largest), the Pacific (Vladivostok), and the Black Sea (Sevastopol.) Oversimplified, that’s the western, northern, eastern, and Mediterranean districts.

Sevastopol is on the Crimea, but guess what - the sovereign nation of Ukraine leased the naval bases back to mother Russia from day one of their independence.

The MFers still annexed/invaded 8 years ago.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top