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*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (2 Viewers)

Kal El said:
sho nuff said:
Id guess Zelensky is smart enough to know that.  That it must be brokered with an intermediary to secure safety.
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I agree, he knows he’s a target, why put himself in a position where he’s now an easy target? Furthermore, aren’t peace talks usually carried out by intermediaries anyway?
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I heard on news radio earlier today that Israel may host these talks between Zelensky and Putin. Let me look for a link.

I turn the dial during commercials ... I think it was Lt. Col. Joe (?) Harris talking about this on Fox's Neil Cavuto Show. Someone else may have heard this -- Harris has a folksy Southern accent if that rings a bell.

EDIT: Yes, the NYT just picked up the news of Zelensky asking Israel to broker the talks. It's paywalled, but lots of free links here from other outlets reporting the same.

 
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Jen Psaki @PressSec

The Secretary of Treasury will also be imposing full blocking sanctions on the Russian Direct Investment Fund--a state owned financial entity that functions as a sovereign wealth fund, which is supposed to attract capital into the Russian economy in high-growth sectors.
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Oh!  

 
The Commish said:
I applaud the optimism of the FFA. I wish I could get there. :hifive:
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I'm with you on this one. I hope my pessimism is misplaced, but I just don't see this ending well. Let's hope, for whatever reason, that Putin decides to negotiate with Zelensky. That would be better than a Christmas miracle, really. 

So it's not likely to happen. 

 
Ukraine military reporting they have shot down a transport plane carrying as many as 200 paratroopers.

 
Juxtatarot said:
THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN We Have Never Been Here Before

I thought this was an excellent read.  I hope it’s OK to post here. It talks about politics but not American politics.
 
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Read most of it and think it is a great addition to the thread.  I think discussing the European and Russian politics are fine in here as they are more relevant than American.

Really thought this quote was insightful:

"Nader Mousavizadeh, founder and C.E.O. of the global consulting firm Macro Advisory Partners, told me. “China wants to compete with America in the Super Bowl of economics, innovation and technology — and thinks it can win. Putin is ready to burn down the stadium and kill everyone in it to satisfy his grievances.”"

 
A report from the Reuters news agency suggests it is looking more likely that Russia could be excluded from the Swift global bank payments system – a step that some countries had been reluctant to take:

Germany and Italy softened their opposition against kicking Russia out of the world’s main international payments network, US and European officials said. Doing so would hit Russian trade and make it harder for Russian companies to do business.

Italy, which had been reluctant to take that step, on Friday said it would not veto proposals to ban Russia and pledged to continue working in unison with its EU partners. Germany, which has the EU’s biggest trade flows with Russia, is also open to banning Russia from Swift, but must calculate the consequences for its economy, said its finance minister, Christian Lindner.

Justin Trudeau, Canada’s PM, and Boris Johnson in Britain want Russia removed from Swift immediately. It would mark be a significant escalation of sanctions already imposed against Russia and its leadership, including some aimed personally at Vladimir Putin and his foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov.

 
massraider said:
A report from the Reuters news agency suggests it is looking more likely that Russia could be excluded from the Swift global bank payments system – a step that some countries had been reluctant to take:

Germany and Italy softened their opposition against kicking Russia out of the world’s main international payments network, US and European officials said. Doing so would hit Russian trade and make it harder for Russian companies to do business.

Italy, which had been reluctant to take that step, on Friday said it would not veto proposals to ban Russia and pledged to continue working in unison with its EU partners. Germany, which has the EU’s biggest trade flows with Russia, is also open to banning Russia from Swift, but must calculate the consequences for its economy, said its finance minister, Christian Lindner.

Justin Trudeau, Canada’s PM, and Boris Johnson in Britain want Russia removed from Swift immediately. It would mark be a significant escalation of sanctions already imposed against Russia and its leadership, including some aimed personally at Vladimir Putin and his foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov.
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I heard that if they're removed from Swift, they'll move to their own system, which could bolster that and actually be counter-productive.

 
Any chance the courage and determination of the Ukrainian military and its people will rewrite the narrative of what the final outcome will be no matter how this ends. It Would be a shame if this ends badly for Ukraine  and the world realized they should have stepped in more, and do, but too little too late. 

When the the stories of the bravery and fierce determination of this country come out for the world to see I believe Putin’s time as a leader will be over. 

It’s just unfortunate it would happen to late for many. I would like to think soon, somebody, anybody, steps in and provides the support this country deserves.

 
massraider said:
A report from the Reuters news agency suggests it is looking more likely that Russia could be excluded from the Swift global bank payments system – a step that some countries had been reluctant to take:

Germany and Italy softened their opposition against kicking Russia out of the world’s main international payments network, US and European officials said. Doing so would hit Russian trade and make it harder for Russian companies to do business.

Italy, which had been reluctant to take that step, on Friday said it would not veto proposals to ban Russia and pledged to continue working in unison with its EU partners. Germany, which has the EU’s biggest trade flows with Russia, is also open to banning Russia from Swift, but must calculate the consequences for its economy, said its finance minister, Christian Lindner.

Justin Trudeau, Canada’s PM, and Boris Johnson in Britain want Russia removed from Swift immediately. It would mark be a significant escalation of sanctions already imposed against Russia and its leadership, including some aimed personally at Vladimir Putin and his foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov.
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Excluding them from Swift will have unintended consequences. Namely that countries will try to move away from the US dollar and further embrace blockchain. Swift is like a horse & buggy and blockchain is a spaceship. Digital currencies will eventually render the Swift global payments network unnecessary and this will just make it happen faster.

 
BeTheMatch said:
Ukraine just shot down a big Russian cargo plane!!
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Schadenfreude - allowed, nay, encouraged

smug satisfaction - OK week one of a televised invasion 

openly cheering - OVER THE LINE!! Sorry, Smokey, you were over the line, that’s a foul. Excuse me, mark it zero, next frame. Smokey, this is not ‘nam, there are rules.

 
dallas428 said:
Any chance the courage and determination of the Ukrainian military and its people will rewrite the narrative of what the final outcome will be no matter how this ends. It Would be a shame if this ends badly for Ukraine  and the world realized they should have stepped in more, and do, but too little too late. 

When the the stories of the bravery and fierce determination of this country come out for the world to see I believe Putin’s time as a leader will be over. 

It’s just unfortunate it would happen to late for many. I would like to think soon, somebody, anybody, steps in and provides the support this country deserves.
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I get what you’re saying just not sure what you are asking for? Nobody is sending troops. Supplies are coming in,  probably slower than needed (like all wars). The US is authorizing a $600m weapons package for Ukraine that I expect will be approved and on its way next week. We couldn’t have done that sooner without repercussions with Russia. Now that they’ve gone blitzkrieg, the optics of it are much better. Sad that it’s that way but this is global politics. Not sure what else you’re looking for here.

Love this quote from Zelensky, “'I need ammunition, NOT a ride!”

 
beer 30 said:
I get what you’re saying just not sure what you are asking for? Nobody is sending troops. Supplies are coming in,  probably slower than needed (like all wars). The US is authorizing a $600m weapons package for Ukraine that I expect will be approved and on its way next week. We couldn’t have done that sooner without repercussions with Russia. Now that they’ve gone blitzkrieg, the optics of it are much better. Sad that it’s that way but this is global politics. Not sure what else you’re looking for here.

Love this quote from Zelensky, “'I need ammunition, NOT a ride!”
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Maybe I've read too many novels but I'm wondering if the US has any "advisors" on the ground there.

 
TwinTurbo said:
Excluding them from


Swift


will have unintended consequences. Namely that countries will try to move away from the US dollar and further embrace blockchain.


Swift


is like a horse & buggy and blockchain is a spaceship. Digital currencies will eventually render the


Swift


global payments network unnecessary and this will just make it happen faster.
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A lot of this blockchain stuff is over my head. But I understand the concept of currency. If this thing is the new currency, it should start behaving like one. 

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
Not sure of the validity of this.

But if true, wow. 
 

https://twitter.com/rihoterras/status/1497537193346220038?s=21
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In keeping with this narrative:

https://twitter.com/aliostad/status/1497519061554630658

Ukrainian drives up to a Russian tank (out of gas!), has a conversation with them--they have no idea where they are going. He's like yeah, talked to a bunch of your countrymen, they don't know where they going either. Leaves them, drives down the road, another broken down tank down the road. 

 
Hungary latest country to back Russia being stopped from using Swift

Hungary has said it supports Russia being shut off from the Swift cross-border financial payments system, according to Poland’s prime minister.

Mateusz Morawiecki said that he had spoken to Hungary’s prime minister Viktor Orbán on Saturday, where he had confirmed his support.

Earlier on Saturday (see 9:28), Cyprus joined the list of countries who support the move. It was thought that getting Orbán’s support may have proved a roadblock to the proposal, which aims to affect Russian business and the economy, as he is often seen as Vladimir Putin’s closest EU ally – visiting him in early February.

With Germany, Italy and Cyprus on board, the SWIFT move seems almost likely now. 

 
massraider said:
A lot of this blockchain stuff is over my head. But I understand the concept of currency. If this thing is the new currency, it should start behaving like one. 
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This was something that I thought about last night as well. Is this just all a long game for China to get the world off of the Dollar?

 
TwinTurbo said:
Excluding them from Swift will have unintended consequences. Namely that countries will try to move away from the US dollar and further embrace blockchain. Swift is like a horse & buggy and blockchain is a spaceship. Digital currencies will eventually render the Swift global payments network unnecessary and this will just make it happen faster.
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This is certainly possible, but it's also one of those bridges that we'll just have to cross when we get there.  For right now, we have a nuclear power led by a crazy person who decided to launch a blitzkrieg-style invasion of a neighboring country in Europe just because.  This needs to be dealt with, preferably without escalating things militarily.  If that means that we marginally speed up a move to blockchain, fine.

 
https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1497539224089899012

This is cool to me. 

So the way Ukrainians have been testing soldiers they come across is they ask them to say "palyanitsa". It's a festive break Ukrainians serve each other, but the combo of sounds is completely alien to Russian tongues. Video of this soldier letting people know how to vet potential saboteurs. He goes onto say that this is a win/win for Ukraine. Either they win the war, or they die fighting a just war.

 
massraider said:
In keeping with this narrative:

https://twitter.com/aliostad/status/1497519061554630658

Ukrainian drives up to a Russian tank (out of gas!), has a conversation with them--they have no idea where they are going. He's like yeah, talked to a bunch of your countrymen, they don't know where they going either. Leaves them, drives down the road, another broken down tank down the road. 
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When we think of warfare, we don’t think of little interactions like this. However, they can be more impactful than a bullet.

 
Juxtatarot said:
When we think of warfare, we don’t think of little interactions like this. However, they can be more impactful than a bullet.
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True, it should show both sides that they’re all just people, even when one is being ordered to fight an unjust war. It also shows how shortsighted and ill-prepared the Russians are.

 
Kal El said:
True, it should show both sides that they’re all just people, even when one is being ordered to fight an unjust war. It also shows how shortsighted and ill-prepared the Russians are.
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The fact that everyone in that country is a potential video-journalist at any moment seems big to me. I have to imagine it is huge for morale to the Ukrainians who are fighting to be able to grab their phone, and see some of this stuff. 

Makes it tougher for Russia to spread the disinfo. I was reading that the speaker of the Duma announced that Zelensky had fled to Lviv, literally at the same time I see a smiling video of him from Kiev. 

 
BeTheMatch said:
I heard that if they're removed from Swift, they'll move to their own system, which could bolster that and actually be counter-productive.
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identikit said:
I heard something about China helping them with a new system
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I still can't figure out why people are so fixated on SWIFT.  It's a messaging system...think subscription service that everyone communicates through so that they don't have to set up individual communication paths between individual banks.  Of course a banking relationship can always choose to set up communication between the parties on their own, it's just not as fast or easy.  In my view, going directly to sanctioning the banks is much more impactful.  Kicking them off SWIFT is short term as they set up their own channels.  Going directly at the banks themselves is long lasting.

 
beer 30 said:
I get what you’re saying just not sure what you are asking for? Nobody is sending troops. Supplies are coming in,  probably slower than needed (like all wars). The US is authorizing a $600m weapons package for Ukraine that I expect will be approved and on its way next week. We couldn’t have done that sooner without repercussions with Russia. Now that they’ve gone blitzkrieg, the optics of it are much better. Sad that it’s that way but this is global politics. Not sure what else you’re looking for here.

Love this quote from Zelensky, “'I need ammunition, NOT a ride!”
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Hopefully there will still be a need for it at that point. Agreed on the Zelensky quote, he’s the kind of leader you want for sure. 

 
massraider said:
The fact that everyone in that country is a potential video-journalist at any moment seems big to me. I have to imagine it is huge for morale to the Ukrainians who are fighting to be able to grab their phone, and see some of this stuff. 

Makes it tougher for Russia to spread the disinfo. I was reading that the speaker of the Duma announced that Zelensky had fled to Lviv, literally at the same time I see a smiling video of him from Kiev. 
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It also helps that everyone on the outside of the situation can compare the Russian lies with the Ukrainian people’s facts and do so in real time. I’m reminded of Baghdad Bob from 2003, and how easily he was made to look like a fool.

 
Soulfly3 said:
@CheriDiNovo 12m

BREAKING Feb 26: China's Defense Ministry just stated that Ukraine's sovereignty should be respected. A major shift along with the global alliance on SWIFT #StandWithUkriane
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This doesn't seem to be going the way Putin imagined it would.

 
@ZelenskyyUaI thank my friend Mr. President of 🇹🇷 @RTErdogan and the people of 🇹🇷 for their strong support. The ban on the passage of 🇷🇺 warships to the Black Sea and significant military and humanitarian support for 🇺🇦 are extremely important today. The people of 🇺🇦 will never forget that!

... this is important news.

 
Interesting Twitter follow- a UKrainian reporter on the ground

@IAPonomarenko: Russian losses now, according to 🇺🇦Ukraine’s military.
14 airplanes 
8 helicopters 
102 tanks
536 armored cars,
15 artillery pieces,
1 BUK-1 system,
3,500 killed, nearly 200 taken prisoner

 
Soulfly3 said:
@CheriDiNovo 12m

BREAKING Feb 26: China's Defense Ministry just stated that Ukraine's sovereignty should be respected. A major shift along with the global alliance on SWIFT #StandWithUkriane
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I honestly wasn’t expecting China to say anything, actually. My guess is they’re seeing everybody cutting Russia off and they decided to not be that guy, especially since they wouldn’t see enough of a benefit.

 
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