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California’s water supply is shrinking rapidly


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https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/07/us/california-water-shasta-oroville-climate/index.html

It seems like we want to keep ignoring what really should be the #1 political issue facing us: climate change. More important than inflation, or abortion, or the Ukraine, or even racism. Certainly more important than wokeism. 

Is it because any solution to this issue is so difficult, such a headache even to consider, that we push it off and avoid it? I don’t think we can much longer. 
 

 

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Just now, timschochet said:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/07/us/california-water-shasta-oroville-climate/index.html

It seems like we want to keep ignoring what really should be the #1 political issue facing us: climate change. More important than inflation, or abortion, or the Ukraine, or even racism. Certainly more important than wokeism. 

Is it because any solution to this issue is so difficult, such a headache even to consider, that we push it off and avoid it? I don’t think we can much longer. 

 

I say we need to get on this issue #1 for the simple fact we don't want any of these Californians moving to other states and ruining them too.  :lol:

Besides, I thought CA didn't need the rest of the USA?  You guys always brag about how great you are, why do you need our help?  😛

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Posted (edited)

Desalination efforts, research and development needs to be up’d massively.  It would solve worldwide issues.  

Edited by dkp993
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1 minute ago, BladeRunner said:

 

I say we need to get on this issue #1 for the simple fact we don't want any of these Californians moving to other states and ruining them too.  :lol:

Besides, I thought CA didn't need the rest of the USA?  You guys always brag about how great you are, why do you need our help?  😛

I know your joking (at least halfway) but water, or lack thereof, is a problem all over the world.  

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1 minute ago, dkp993 said:

Desalination efforts, research and development need to be up’d massively.  It would solve worldwide issues.  

We aren’t running out of people (and we don’t really want to change our habits) so this seems like the way we have to go.

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1 minute ago, BladeRunner said:

 

I say we need to get on this issue #1 for the simple fact we don't want any of these Californians moving to other states and ruining them too.  :lol:

Besides, I thought CA didn't need the rest of the USA?  You guys always brag about how great you are, why do you need our help?  😛

Please don’t try to turn this, even in jest, into a state vs state issue. It’s a World issue. If droughts and extreme weather conditions are affecting California then they’re going to affect everywhere. 
It’s too late to stop climate change. We’ve done this to ourselves and we can’t reverse it. We can, however, slow it down and take steps to deal with the worst catastrophes ahead of us. But it’s going to take trillions of dollars and a whole new way of thinking. And we’re not close, not close. 

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2 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

I know your joking (at least halfway) but water, or lack thereof, is a problem all over the world.  

 

No doubt.  We need these desalinization plants so I'm not sure what the hold up is all over the world.  Probably price, as usual.

We should also start thinking about having some kind of population control too.  I have no idea how much life earth can support, but 8 billion people seems like we're pushing it, IMO.

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/07/us/california-water-shasta-oroville-climate/index.html

It seems like we want to keep ignoring what really should be the #1 political issue facing us: climate change. More important than inflation, or abortion, or the Ukraine, or even racism. Certainly more important than wokeism. 

Is it because any solution to this issue is so difficult, such a headache even to consider, that we push it off and avoid it? I don’t think we can much longer. 
 

 

 

The solution is right in front of your state's face, but they're too dumb to embrace it:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/california-staff-report-recommends-denial-desalination-plant-2022-04-26/

Just like Nuclear for energy.  And as a result everything becomes a crisis. 

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4 minutes ago, John123 said:

 

The solution is right in front of your state's face, but they're too dumb to embrace it:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/california-staff-report-recommends-denial-desalination-plant-2022-04-26/

Just like Nuclear for energy.  And as a result everything becomes a crisis. 

I agree with you. On nuclear as well. 
As I wrote we need a whole new way of thinking about this. And that’s not just on the right. The left needs to rethink their priorities just as much as the right does. 

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4 minutes ago, John123 said:

 

The solution is right in front of your state's face, but they're too dumb to embrace it:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/california-staff-report-recommends-denial-desalination-plant-2022-04-26/

Just like Nuclear for energy.  And as a result everything becomes a crisis. 

Yeah I saw this last month when they denied it and was pissed.  But while we need this the technology is also still primitive.  We need a much bigger break through that drives the cost and energy usage down before it becomes a true solution.   

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8 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

 

No doubt.  We need these desalinization plants so I'm not sure what the hold up is all over the world.  Probably price, as usual.

We should also start thinking about having some kind of population control too.  I have no idea how much life earth can support, but 8 billion people seems like we're pushing it, IMO.

Price and engery in vs water out ratio. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

I agree with you. On nuclear as well. 
As I wrote we need a whole new way of thinking about this. And that’s not just on the right. The left needs to rethink their priorities just as much as the right does. 

 

Stop it.  The "right" isn't preventing these solutions from happening.  When you include both sides in issues that only one side is creating you're doing so to deflect blame from the side causing the issue.  For once, just say "you know the libs and environmentalists" are wrong about this.  And don't try to tie the issue to climate change.  I grew up in CA.  This was an issue even when I was growing up there in the 70's and 80's.  It just wasn't a crisis.   The article I posted says this plant was first proposed 25 years ago.  I don't know why it took 25 years just to get to this stage but it shouldn't have.   If you want a new way of thinking, try focusing on solving the problem and NOT tying it to your political agenda for once.  I won't hold my breath.

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Just now, timschochet said:

I agree with you. On nuclear as well. 
As I wrote we need a whole new way of thinking about this. And that’s not just on the right. The left needs to rethink their priorities just as much as the right does. 

To expand on this: 

Conservatives need to start acknowledging that climate change is a serious problem, the biggest problem we face, that a huge national or worldwide expenditure is going to be necessary, that carbon based fuel is going to have to be replaced sooner rather than later, and that there are going to have to be some restrictions on free enterprise. 

Progressives need to acknowledge that nuclear energy may be one of the key solutions to climate change, that attempting to use climate change as a means to promote socialism is never going to succeed with the public, that attempting to punish the public or create artificial hardships is doomed to failure, that punishing American industry while allowing the rest of the world to do what they want is doomed to failure. 

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11 minutes ago, John123 said:

 

The solution is right in front of your state's face, but they're too dumb to embrace it:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/california-staff-report-recommends-denial-desalination-plant-2022-04-26/

Just like Nuclear for energy.  And as a result everything becomes a crisis. 

Maybe the got around the hurdle?  From this week….

https://calmatters.org/commentary/2022/05/huntington-beach-desalination-plant-is-a-crucial-tool-in-californias-climate-change-arsenal/

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3 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Yeah I saw this last month when they denied it and was pissed.  But while we need this the technology is also still primitive.  We need a much bigger break through that drives the cost and energy usage down before it becomes a true solution.   

 

I am not an expert on desalination but it's been around a while and apparently this company already has at least one desalination plant in CA and I haven't heard anyone complain that it doesn't work, costs too much, etc......I'm sure the technology can be improved.  Sometimes you accept the good instead of waiting for the perfect.  NASA didn't wait for Elon Musk to start sending people in to space even though his technology is leaps and bounds ahead of anything NASA ever sent to space.

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2 minutes ago, John123 said:

 

Stop it.  The "right" isn't preventing these solutions from happening.  When you include both sides in issues that only one side is creating you're doing so to deflect blame from the side causing the issue.  For once, just say "you know the libs and environmentalists" are wrong about this.  And don't try to tie the issue to climate change.  I grew up in CA.  This was an issue even when I was growing up there in the 70's and 80's.  It just wasn't a crisis.   The article I posted says this plant was first proposed 25 years ago.  I don't know why it took 25 years just to get to this stage but it shouldn't have.   If you want a new way of thinking, try focusing on solving the problem and NOT tying it to your political agenda for once.  I won't hold my breath.

It is absolutely tied to climate change. Sorry you can’t see that. 
I won’t discuss the other points with you because if you won’t acknowledge that point we can’t make any headway on the rest of it. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

It is absolutely tied to climate change. Sorry you can’t see that. 
I won’t discuss the other points with you because if you won’t acknowledge that point we can’t make any headway on the rest of it. 

 

That's fine.  I hate playing your stupid political games.  Some of us focus on the issues, problems, and solutions. 

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1 minute ago, John123 said:

 

That's fine.  I hate playing your stupid political games.  Some of us focus on the issues, problems, and solutions. 

I would like to think that would include me. Climate change is not a game. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, John123 said:

 

I am not an expert on desalination but it's been around a while and apparently this company already has at least one desalination plant in CA and I haven't heard anyone complain that it doesn't work, costs too much, etc......I'm sure the technology can be improved.  Sometimes you accept the good instead of waiting for the perfect.  NASA didn't wait for Elon Musk to start sending people in to space even though his technology is leaps and bounds ahead of anything NASA ever sent to space.

I agree with all of this (and lived in Carlsbad where the largest plant is).  There are currently 12 desalination plants in Cali.  But the point I was making is for this to truly make a dent the cost and energy required need to both come down.  I’m not advocating we stop because of this, on the contrary, we need more money for research and development poured (pun intended) into this.  It’s a global issue that we can solve.  

Edited by dkp993
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21 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

 

No doubt.  We need these desalinization plants so I'm not sure what the hold up is all over the world.  Probably price, as usual.

We should also start thinking about having some kind of population control too.  I have no idea how much life earth can support, but 8 billion people seems like we're pushing it, IMO.

What’s this now?

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5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It is absolutely tied to climate change. Sorry you can’t see that. 
I won’t discuss the other points with you because if you won’t acknowledge that point we can’t make any headway on the rest of it. 

 

If water wasn't a problem in CA previously they wouldn't have built a 250 mile long aqueduct so they could steal water from the CO river.  And they did it almost 100 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Aqueduct

So just stop it.  The population has exploded since that aqueduct was built.  I remember rationing water during droughts in the 70's.  So just stop it.  Climate change may or may not be an issue.  That's certainly worthy of discussion.  But this issue is NOT due to climate change. 

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Hydroponics offers some help. 80-90% less water consumption, local production.

https://www.trees.com/gardening-and-landscaping/advantages-disadvantages-of-hydroponics#Advantages-of-Hydroponics

PROS

1. An extended growing season

Cold climates with chilly winter temperatures and shorter day lengths prohibit plant growth. But with a hydroponics system, plants can be grown hydroponically year-round because the grower controls the temperature, light, and nutrient-supply.

2. Improved growth and yield

Hydroponics systems typically result in faster-growing, higher-yielding plants. This is likely due to the increased oxygen levels found in the nutrient solution and the carefully controlled environmental factors. By increasing a plant’s oxygen levels, you stimulate root growth and enhance nutrient uptake. These optimal growing conditions equate to less stress on plants and a more bountiful harvest.

3. Higher plant density

Plants grown in soil have rigid spacing guidelines that must be followed to allow each plant equal access to the soil’s somewhat limited supply of water and nutrients. Because hydroponics systems deliver a more nutrient-charged solution to the root zone, plants can be grown closer together without competing for root space.

4. Plants can grow anywhere

Unlike traditional gardens that require outdoor space for plants, hydroponics systems are easily incorporated into many homes, regardless of their size or location.

5. Less water consumption

Even though hydroponic systems depend primarily on water to grow plants, they use between 80 to 90% less water than plants grown in the ground. In traditional gardening, a large amount of water is applied to the soil to allow adequate moisture to reach the root zone. When moving through the soil, the water evaporates and only a percentage of it reaches the roots.

In hydroponics, the water immediately reaches the roots, with little lost to evaporation. In many systems, the nutrient solution is also recirculated multiple times before becoming unusable and discarded, further improving water efficiency.

6. Fewer pest problems

Because hydroponics systems are indoors, pests aren’t as prevalent and have controlled entrances. Insects find it more challenging to infiltrate the system and attack plants. Plus, fewer pest problems mean little to no need for pesticides.

7. Easier to harvest mature plants

Plants grown in hydroponics systems are typically grown on counters, benches, tables, etc., which puts them at waist height for most growers. At this height, mature plants are easier to harvest since there’s no need to bend down or kneel to reach the plants. This is an important advantage for growers with limited mobility or physical ailments that prevent them from gardening at ground-level.

CONS

1. Expensive to set up

Compared to a traditional garden, a hydroponics system is more expensive to acquire and build. Costs range depending upon the type and size of the system purchased, and whether or not it’s prefabricated or built with individual components to create a customized design.

2. Vulnerable to power outages

Both passive and active hydroponics systems depend on electricity to power the different components such as grow lights, water pumps, aerators, fans, etc. Therefore, a power outage will affect the entire system. In active systems, a loss of power can be detrimental to plants if it goes unnoticed by the grower.

3. Requires constant monitoring and maintenance

Hydroponics requires a higher level of monitoring and micro-managing than growing plants traditionally. To maintain a carefully controlled growing environment, all system components need constant vigilance—lights, temperature, and many aspects of the nutrient solution such as pH and electrical conductivity. The nutrient solution also needs to be flushed and replaced regularly, and the system parts cleaned often to prevent buildup and clogging.

4. Waterborne diseases

Because hydroponically grown plants are grown in water instead of soil, waterborne diseases are considerably higher. With the water circulating continuously through the system, infections can spread quickly throughout the growing system as a whole, affecting the whole collection of plants. In extreme cases, a waterborne disease can kill all the plants in a hydroponics system within hours.

5. Problems affect plants quicker

Soil protects the roots from extreme temperature changes, slows diseases and pests from attacking, and regularly releases and absorbs nutrients. Without soil to act as a buffer, plants grown in hydroponics systems react negatively to problems like nutrient deficiencies and disease much quicker.

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5 minutes ago, John123 said:

 

If water wasn't a problem in CA previously they wouldn't have built a 250 mile long aqueduct so they could steal water from the CO river.  And they did it almost 100 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Aqueduct

So just stop it.  The population has exploded since that aqueduct was built.  I remember rationing water during droughts in the 70's.  So just stop it.  Climate change may or may not be an issue.  That's certainly worthy of discussion.  But this issue is NOT due to climate change. 

Well, climate change isn’t the sole issue, so you aren’t wrong.  But it’s also strange to completely dismiss climate change as one of the factors at play here.

@timschochet:  California has a demand problem here too.   California over-consumes water as a state.  Far too much water is used inefficiently for agriculture.   That’s a problem. It would be foolish - and misguided - to only focus on water supply and ignore the demand side issues.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/10/us/california-water-drought.html

https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/

https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2021/10/12/new-analysis-details-immense-scale-of-corporate-water-abuses-in-california/

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11 minutes ago, John123 said:

 

If water wasn't a problem in CA previously they wouldn't have built a 250 mile long aqueduct so they could steal water from the CO river.  And they did it almost 100 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Aqueduct

So just stop it.  The population has exploded since that aqueduct was built.  I remember rationing water during droughts in the 70's.  So just stop it.  Climate change may or may not be an issue.  That's certainly worthy of discussion.  But this issue is NOT due to climate change. 


“How DARE you”

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5 minutes ago, The General said:

Sorry. The part I bolded about population control.

 

That there is 8 billion people on the planet?  Or that we should control the population?  I'm not sure what you're trying say.   Can you just say it?

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Just now, BladeRunner said:

 

That there is 8 billion people on the planet?  Or that we should control the population?  I'm not sure what you're trying say.   Can you just say it?

Sorry thought it was clear. Population control.

What and how does that play out and who does this etc.

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Just now, The General said:

Sorry thought it was clear. Population control.

What and how does that play out and who does this etc.

Blade and I can partner together and decide.  Two different ends of the political spectrum.  I trust the two of us to make good decisions.  :)

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14 minutes ago, John123 said:

 

If water wasn't a problem in CA previously they wouldn't have built a 250 mile long aqueduct so they could steal water from the CO river.  And they did it almost 100 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Aqueduct

So just stop it.  The population has exploded since that aqueduct was built.  I remember rationing water during droughts in the 70's.  So just stop it.  Climate change may or may not be an issue.  That's certainly worthy of discussion.  But this issue is NOT due to climate change. 

I won’t argue this with you. The fact that you have a proposed solution to this problem, and it’s one we can agree on, is good enough.

The experts I listen to tell me that climate change plays a huge role in this situation so that’s why I disagree with you. But again it doesn’t matter. On the larger issue of climate change it DOES matter and we need to find ways to agree to fight it. 

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6 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Well, climate change isn’t the sole issue, so you aren’t wrong.  But it’s also strange to completely dismiss climate change as one of the factors at play here.

@timschochet:  California has a demand problem here too.   California over-consumes water as a state.  Far too much water is used inefficiently for agriculture.   That’s a problem. It would be foolish - and misguided - to only focus on water supply and ignore the demand side issues.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/10/us/california-water-drought.html

https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/

https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2021/10/12/new-analysis-details-immense-scale-of-corporate-water-abuses-in-california/

I agree. I don’t know what we can do about the demand but I’m open to suggestions. 

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1 minute ago, Philo Beddoe said:

We seem to have plenty of water here in Massachusetts. This was due to climate change. 10,000 years ago my property was buried under a mile of ice. Then the climate changed again and it melted. 

When I refer to climate change I’m speaking of man made climate change, not stuff that happened 10000 years ago. That’s irrelevant. 

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Obviously it’s more fun to just blame sides, but it’s likely nature doesn’t make choices this way. Other states will be affected as well.

AZ likely to face additional water restrictions in August

The political question from the federal government level is do we, as a nation, do something about it, or do we just say “ha ha CA with your libs in charge this is what you get.”?

I come down on the side of not differentiating between “Red and Blue” when it comes to matters like this, but I suspect that’s unpopular for reasons already mentioned upthread.

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4 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Blade and I can partner together and decide.  Two different ends of the political spectrum.  I trust the two of us to make good decisions.  :)

I had a Biology teacher in college who was practically a communist on many things. He had a lesson about use of resources, consumption, broke it down into an equation. Paraphrasing it was basically people use too much resources, especially Western nations. Had a rough formula that shows how much land a person in the US “uses” each year taking everything into account.

This was 25 years ago, I’m sure it’s much worse now.

I mean it was just basic math (his numbers could probably be nitpicked) but the premise made sense. 

Talking about population control though isn’t something I expected from conservative, government is broken type posters though :lol: 

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

When I refer to climate change I’m speaking of man made climate change, not stuff that happened 10000 years ago. That’s irrelevant. 

How has man made climate change impacted the California water supply? This is 100% a bureaucratic & political issue. Show some facts that climate change caused this. The only people that want the working class to pay more for everything they buy (and it still won’t stop or slow it) are coastal elites that want to preserve their million dollar views and their Martha’s Vineyard mansions. 

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1 minute ago, Philo Beddoe said:

How has man made climate change impacted the California water supply? This is 100% a bureaucratic & political issue. Show some facts that climate change caused this. The only people that want the working class to pay more for everything they buy (and it still won’t stop or slow it) are coastal elites that want to preserve their million dollar views and their Martha’s Vineyard mansions. 

Seems like a solid, clinical, fact-based take.

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1 minute ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Seems like a solid, clinical, fact-based take.

2014 – Proposition 1: Water Quality, Supply, and Infrastructure Improvement Act; $7.12 billion

It’s been 8 years since this passed. Why have they only spent less than a billion dollars to date with a bulk of it going to environmental causes like protecting rivers, lakes, streams and watersheds? 

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The American Scandal podcast by Wondry did a 4 part episode called LA Steals It's Water. The first 3 parts cover how in 1941, the population explosion in LA and the surrounding area created a water shortage for the area and how the head of the water department for LA dealt with it. The 4th episode is about the ongoing  crisis and how the Colorado River hasn't reached the Pacific in decades. 

And I honestly don't know so this isn't meant to be a gotcha question, but how does climate change cause the water shortage in California?

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14 minutes ago, Philo Beddoe said:

How has man made climate change impacted the California water supply? This is 100% a bureaucratic & political issue. Show some facts that climate change caused this. The only people that want the working class to pay more for everything they buy (and it still won’t stop or slow it) are coastal elites that want to preserve their million dollar views and their Martha’s Vineyard mansions. 

If you type on Google “How does climate change affect water supplies?” literally dozens of articles show up on the first page alone, most of them from non-partisan scientific sources. Here is one example: 

https://10nics2020.futureearth.org/10-new-insights-in-climate-science/4-climate-change-will-severely-exacerbate-the-water-crisis/

Are there specific actions such as those you referenced contributing to this problem? Of course. Is man made climate change at the heart of it? Of course. Very frustrating that you and others fight so hard against this. We can only fight symptoms for so long before being forced to address the disease. 

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56 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I would like to think that would include me. Climate change is not a game. 

The Almond farmers want to thank you..

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14 minutes ago, Philo Beddoe said:

2014 – Proposition 1: Water Quality, Supply, and Infrastructure Improvement Act; $7.12 billion

It’s been 8 years since this passed. Why have they only spent less than a billion dollars to date with a bulk of it going to environmental causes like protecting rivers, lakes, streams and watersheds? 

I was mostly reacting to the part about million dollar views and MV mansions.

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9 minutes ago, steeler6 said:

 

And I honestly don't know so this isn't meant to be a gotcha question, but how does climate change cause the water shortage in California?

Here’s another: 

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1003424717/the-drought-in-the-western-u-s-is-getting-bad-climate-change-is-making-it-worse

I probably shouldn’t have asserted that it’s causing the problem- some scientists absolutely think so, others suggest that climate change is simply making it far worse. My question is: what’s the difference? 

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