Saints Lack Support? (1 Viewer)

Excerpt from today's FBG email..." ... The second fact - an attendance of 4,251 at the Black and Gold Scrimmage - shows how little support the small-market Saints enjoy in comparison to the small-market Green Bay Packers (who had an amazing 60,000+ fans in attendance at their Green and Gold Scrimmage over the weekend). "First of all the scrimmage was held about an hour away from New Orleans in a small town where the Saints used to hold training camp. The Saints have sold out their last 30 conecutive home games and season ticket sales have run in the 45k to 50k+ range the last couple of years despite some very average football. Of course in comparison to the Packers any team would come up short, but a) there is nothing else to do in Green Bay (yes I have been there) and b) they have consistently had better teams than the Saints. I don't know why they decided to question the support of the Saints, but the implication that the team does not enjoy local fan support is just not true.

The Pack drew 60,000. The Eagles got 25,000 people out to a practice an hour from Philly. What's wrong with you people in New Orleans, anyway? Letting some swamps and gators scare you all off of an hour drive? The only good thing you have going for you now is that the team name "Saints" will work so well in the city of angels.

DOn't shoot the messenger. I have no doubt that there are plenty of Saints fans in the greater NOLA area. However, the team HAS been the subject of "moving rumors" and a number of other teams are enjoying RIDICULOUS amounts of support at practices and camps. I think the FBGuy observation was merely that: an observation.

Colin

DOn't shoot the messenger. I have no doubt that there are plenty of Saints fans in the greater NOLA area. However, the team HAS been the subject of "moving rumors" and a number of other teams are enjoying RIDICULOUS amounts of support at practices and camps. I think the FBGuy observation was merely that: an observation.

Colin

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When the Saints hold practice in the Superdome this wednesday I figure that the usual 15k-20k or so fans in attendance. The moving rumors are based on threats that every NFL team makes when it whines for a new stadium. Like I said I don't think there are many other NFL teams with 30 straight home sell-outs. If the team has any problems with "support" it is with a lack of corporate sponsorship (only one fortune 500 team in the city) not with fan support. The Packers have won 70% of their games over the past three years, lets see how many fans show up at a practice for a team that is .500 over a three year span before drawing comparisons regarding fan support.

Ahhh me AINTS how I love 'em.That fact that anyone and I mean anyone shows up for Saints' games is a testament to how much we love this team. Is there a worse Franchise in ALL of Sports??Granted the Ricky trade is looking prescient but ahem we did give up quite a bit to get 'em.Philly fans complain about losing the NFC Championship game three times in a row urmmph we have not even made it past the secound round of the playoffs ever and have won all of ONE Playoff game.Believe me though the Saints are one of the most supported teams in the NFL. The 30 game streak is not because a bunch of fortune 500 companies are buying up the tickets, we homers are buying 'em and the SUPERDOME is not an easy place to sell out, it is kinda large and showing some age.Secondly outdoor scrimmages this far south are well UNGODLY hot but worse very humid so ahh no if it is not air conditioned we ain't going. Find me 60,000-25,000 fans who would drive one hour to sweat their asses off and I mean sweat with avg humidity here in the high 90's in august. You guys have 4 seasons spring, summer, fall, winter. We got summer, Hi-summer, hurricane and Lo-summer.Edited to add I too was a little perturbed when I read the "shows little support" comment not enough to start my own thread but hey if someone else did

The Chargers are holding their training camp a little over an hour north of San Diego, and they drew more than 200 people to their practice this weekend. (And that's not including coaches or players.)

Excerpt from today's FBG email..." ... The second fact - an attendance of 4,251 at the Black and Gold Scrimmage - shows how little support the small-market Saints enjoy in comparison to the small-market Green Bay Packers (who had an amazing 60,000+ fans in attendance at their Green and Gold Scrimmage over the weekend). "First of all the scrimmage was held about an hour away from New Orleans in a small town where the Saints used to hold training camp. The Saints have sold out their last 30 conecutive home games and season ticket sales have run in the 45k to 50k+ range the last couple of years despite some very average football. Of course in comparison to the Packers any team would come up short, but a) there is nothing else to do in Green Bay (yes I have been there) and b) they have consistently had better teams than the Saints. I don't know why they decided to question the support of the Saints, but the implication that the team does not enjoy local fan support is just not true.

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Umm, let me, as the writer of the above quotation, say this: The comparison was valid, and the Saints do NOT enjoy sufficient "local" support for a small-market NFL town. It takes extraordinary measures to make a small-market town competitive in the modern NFL: Consider:Franchise A: Green Bay Packers:Packers' Stockholder's Fact Sheet

A total of 4,748,910 shares is owned by 111,507 stockholders - none of whom receives any dividend on the initial investment. The corporation is governed by a board of directors and a seven-member executive committee. One of the more remarkable business stories in American history, the team is kept viable by its stockholders - its unselfish fans. Even more incredible, the Packers have survived during the current era, permeated by free agency and the NFL salary cap. And, thanks in large part to Brown County's passage of the Lambeau Field referendum, the club will remain solvent and highly competitive well into the future.

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Franchise B: New Orleans Saints:Saints/New Orleans/Louisiana Wrangle Over Stadium Renovations

Both sides have spent too much time bickering and bunkering and not enough time cooperating during negotiations over the past four years. The Saints need to back off the hard-line "A deal's a deal" approach and help the state find alternative funding sources. It's obvious the state needs a new source of revenue. If the Saints want to reach a long-term solution to their problem, wouldn't it be prudent to help the state in the short-term? So a deal's a deal? Didn't the state renegotiate its lease with the Saints three previous times to aid the club? And didn't the Saints have a six-year deal with Nicholls State University to hold their training camp there through 2010? In return, state officials should agree to produce a new stadium plan. The Saints have a point in their assertion that pouring money into a nearly 30-year-old facility is a waste of funds. That's not to say the building doesn't need an upgrade. But the proposed $150 million renovation to add new luxury suites, concession stands and other revenue-generating features is misguided. The Saints can't sell the 137 suites in the Superdome as is. Why do they need nine new ones? If the state can afford to pay the Saints $20 million or $23.5 a year, as the deal calls for in 2006 and beyond, can't it afford to fund a new stadium?

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There is a well-documented and successful small-market NFL franchise that has found an "alternative funding source" -- it's dedicated and football-loving fans (see the Green Bay Stockholders' info above). If New Orleans wishes to remain a small-market NFL franchise that has some modicum of a prayer in the modern NFL (not that the Saints' fans are used to having much hope), y'all need to consider the Green Bay model. Otherwise, look forward to the "Los Angeles Saints" in the near future.Need I produce more documentary evidence on this point (which abounds), or can we now agree that the comparison was justified? BTW, New Orleans has a population of 484,674 (31st in the US New Orleans city Louisiana) whereas Green Bay Wisconsin has a population of 102,313 (228th in the US Green Bay city Wisconsin) -- yet 1/4 the population of New Orleans can (and has) produce(d) a stable, financially healthy, and winning franchise... US Population Centers According to the 2000 U.S. Census

Your arguement about fan support comparing the Saints to the Green Bay Packers is true but where it loses steam is that you are comparing one of if not the most storied franchise in all of PRO SPORTS not just the NFL to one of the worst franchises in argueably PRO sports or at the very least the NFL.Edited to add WTF makes you think that ANY owner of ANY team making ANY profit would turn his team into a non-profit organization???Carefully reading those links basically what happend was that the Packers were not making a profit and in 1923 the team was bankrupt. A group of five men bought the TEAM DEBT and then turned to the community who bought a 1,000 shares for 5 bucks and then turned around and promised to buy season tickets. They then turned to the community four more times and reading the link

Shares of stock were purchased by citizens from all 50 states, in addition to fans in Guam and the U.S. Virgin Islands. Over half (or roughly 64,300) of the new shares during the 1997-98 offering were bought by Wisconsin residents, followed by inhabitants of Illinois (9,600), Minnesota (4,300), California (3,700), Florida (2,900), Michigan (2,800), Texas (2,500) and Ohio (2,000).

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So it's not exactly like all that great fan support comes from one tiny town in Wisc. now is it?? The problem with your wonderfull idea is that the Saints are not broke and are privately owned like most NFL teams except for the my gosh its the Packers. Sell Shares uh well nfl teams are already doing that, they are called seat licensing fees these days, paid one lately?? However if Tom benson does agree to sell his profitable team to the fans I am more than sure that we would gladly buy our shares and build a new stadium for our Aints probably field a winning team faster that way too. Your opinion supporting article by Jeff Duncan is an opinion article btw.

Your arguement about fan support comparing the Saints to the Green Bay Packers is true but where it loses steam is that you are comparing one of if not the most storied franchise in all of PRO SPORTS not just the NFL to one of the worst franchises in argueably PRO sports or at the very least the NFL.

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I grant all your statements in the above-quoted post. The Packers do have a winning tradition, and the Saints have the opposite.The question is, do the Saints' fans want football to continue in N'Arlins, or not? Green Bay has not always supported a winning franchise (despite the glorious Lombardi and Holmgren/Sherman years): consider 1971-1991 (Packers' Team Results All-Time126 Wins in 21 years. (6 wins a year, on average)Consider N'Arlins' Results from 1971-1991: Saints' Team Results All-Time126 Wins in 21 years. (6 wins a year, on average)Gee, the "most storied franchise in all of PRO SPORTS" won exactly the same number of games over exactly the same time period in exactly the same pro sport with exactly the same rules and exactly the same free agency issues as the "worst franchise in PRO sports" -- yet one is positioned to be successful in the new millenium and the other struggles to make "ends meet" (yet New Orleans plays in a market 4 times larger than the "most storied franchise"). Now, which team is it that has maximized its fan base and which is it that has squandered its opportunities?

I can only add, Louisiana is actually not a state.. it's own little country, yes they are included in the fifty states...but being a life long resident of the state...I can assure anyone it is a stand alone state...country..Island...Whatever.Have you been to a LSU game lately?The Saints put a decent product on the field they will behead any cheesehead that ever walked the earth.Bad team..we just go crayfishing...Fact!

So it's not exactly like all that great fan support comes from one tiny town in Wisc. now is it?? The problem with your wonderfull idea is that the Saints are not broke and are privately owned like most NFL teams except for the my gosh its the Packers. Sell Shares uh well nfl teams are already doing that, they are called seat licensing fees these days, paid one lately?? However if Tom benson does agree to sell his profitable team to the fans I am more than sure that we would gladly buy our shares and build a new stadium for our Aints probably field a winning team faster that way too.

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I'm glad that you have come to the same conclusion that I have... The best fix for the NFL is for the Fans to buy out the Owners and to marry the teams to the home-towns in exactly the way the Packers and their wide-ranging fan-base has managed to do (thanks to a happy collection of circumstances). I agree 100% with you that if Tom Benson offered to sell the Saints to the ~500,000 "locals" + all of the "dislocated" Saints' fans who have moved elsewhere, that the newly created non-profit Saints would sell out quickly and

we would gladly buy our shares and build a new stadium for our Aints probably field a winning team faster that way too

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Why don't y'all suggest to the Guv'nor down there that she make the state payments to Benson contingent on his public auction of 51% of the team, including a guarantee of never moving the Saints to another city since it will be owned by the citizens of "greater" Louisiana? Benson gets the market value of his team in N'Arlins, y'all get a team in perpetuity, and the funding problem is neatly solved.

I believe the 30 straight home game sellouts prove that Saints Fans want Football to continue in New Orleans not to mention the tremendous amount of pressure put on the LA gov. to make the over $13 million dollar payment to the Saints this year.I cannot believe that you are even arguing about which team has a more storied history though, are you serious??? Thats the single most ridiculous post I have ever read in this forum.But for the record lets compare the whole history shall weSaints: 1967-2003 W/L 227-336-5 PC % .399 Winning seasons 12 including the 5 seasons we were 8-8 so uhhh 7. First winning season 1983 (8-8 1979). Superbowls won zero played in zero, Conference Championships won zero played in zero, division championships won one, playoff games won one. Key moments Tom Dempseys' 63 yard field goal to beat the Lions NFL record (tied by Elam), Players in the hall of fame Jim Finks administrator. Funny to note that 1967 was also the year that Green Bay won the first Superbowl.Packers: 1921 - 2003 All-Time Record 626-487-36 .544 Winning seasons 54 kinda stopped counting though first winning season 1922. Packers Super Bowl Championships:I, II, XXXINFC Championships:1996, 1997NFL Championships:1929, 1930, 1931, 1936, 1939, 1944, 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967NFL Western Conference Championships:1936, 1938, 1939, 1944, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967NFC Central Division Championships:1972, 1995, 1996, 1997NFC Northern Division Championships: 2002, 2003Hall of famers 20 My point is that no franchise can really compete with the Packers its fan base nor its history much respect to you Cowboy, Bears, Steelers fans but especially not the Saints we have never experienced any such high level of success nor have we been in operation as long. Its apples and oranges.No way does your model of success for a small market team apply to the present, nor does the fact that we have 4,000 plus fans show up for a scrimmage on a day where the morning news mentioned unusual highs and the fact that niether Brooks nor Duece would play show a lack of fan support (see above 30 straight sell-outs).Perhaps the only team its fair to compare us to are the Bungles. They entered the league around the same time and have enjoyed almost as much futilty as us although they have won two AFC championships. How would you say thier fan base is? Have they maximized it? How many sellouts do they have going into this season?Fact is that Tom benson will move/sell this team no matter what we fans do, its not like we can buy more tickets. I do suppose we could vote/pressure to build the new proposed stadium but isn't this the same crap that all owners say when its they who want a new stadium and all we want is a winning team? "Build me a new stadium, give me more money, and I'll give you a winner" Emmm I think I'll ask some Brewer fans about that one.Edited to add David you are right in a perfect world that's a wonderful solution not just for us but for the entire NFL but one that will never happen.

I admit I made a couple cheap jokes at the Saints expense above. If they move the Saints to LA, it will be a travesty. Let the Chargers move a few miles north. But there is nothing that says that LA is entitled to a team.For the contra argument about fan support: I remember a few years ago, the Falcons not being able to put people in the seats in their stadium. The addition of Michael Vick and a playoff victory in 2002 have changed that outlook. If New Orleans plays to their potential one of these years, they should see their support move up. Someone should take a look at Carolina's sales for 2004 compared to the last 4 years. They will get a nice bounce out of their competitiveness.Cities like Buffalo and Green Bay are special cases. After football, they don't have much else going on for them except food that is quite tasty but very destructive to one's body.

I agree 100% with you that if Tom Benson offered to sell the Saints to the ~500,000 "locals" + all of the "dislocated" Saints' fans who have moved elsewhere, that the newly created non-profit Saints would sell out quickly ...

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Be aware that the NFL no longer allows public purchase of its franchises. Green Bay has been grandfathered in -- no other team will have the same ownership model under current NFL rules.

Excerpt from today's FBG email..." ... The second fact - an attendance of 4,251 at the Black and Gold Scrimmage - shows how little support the small-market Saints enjoy in comparison to the small-market Green Bay Packers (who had an amazing 60,000+ fans in attendance at their Green and Gold Scrimmage over the weekend). "

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Another thing is that the author may be comparing apples to oranges. The Saints charged $28 to attend the Black and Gold scrimmage this year (compared to $10-15 in 2000), which amounts to about 45 minutes of football. Fans who have attended in the past are aware of this -- the scrimmage can be fairly unimpressive.How much do the Pack, Eagles, et al charge to attend their scrimmages? How long do they go?

I'm glad that you have come to the same conclusion that I have... The best fix for the NFL is for the Fans to buy out the Owners and to marry the teams to the home-towns in exactly the way the Packers and their wide-ranging fan-base has managed to do (thanks to a happy collection of circumstances). I agree 100% with you that if Tom Benson offered to sell the Saints to the ~500,000 "locals" + all of the "dislocated" Saints' fans who have moved elsewhere, that the newly created non-profit Saints would sell out quickly and Why don't y'all suggest to the Guv'nor down there that she make the state payments to Benson contingent on his public auction of 51% of the team, including a guarantee of never moving the Saints to another city since it will be owned by the citizens of "greater" Louisiana? Benson gets the market value of his team in N'Arlins, y'all get a team in perpetuity, and the funding problem is neatly solved.

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I guess you aren't aware that the NFL abolished this strategy by limiting the number of shareholders in a team. Therefore, your idea can no longer be used. As I originally said, it is not a valid comparison to compare a franchise with a winning tradition to the Saints--your comparison of a carefully chosen window that closed 13 years ago notwithstanding. Again, 30 sell outs and 50k +/- season tickets sold the past couple of years shows great fan support. The article that you quoted (regarding suite sales) merely supports my original assertion that it's a lack of corporate sponsors are hurting the team--not fan support.

The Chargers are holding their training camp a little over an hour north of San Diego, and they drew more than 200 people to their practice this weekend. (And that's not including coaches or players.)

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This was hilarious. Peter King described the scene at the Charger practice as the media having outnumbered the fans.

Another factor - tickets to the Black and Gold scrimmage were apparently $25. Sounds very high to me, but I don't know what other teams charge. And, in my opinion, Saints fans have given too much blind support to the team lately. The Haslett and Brooks combo has been a slightly below 50% winner since that lone playoff win in 2000, and Benson continues to give his guys praise and contract extensions. Yet the loyal Saints fans keep giving Benson sellouts. New Orleans is a small market, with poor fans, and the fact that utter mediocrity continues to get sellouts is impressive to me.

I think this entire argument could have been reduced to a few posts with the price of admission being the key factor only 4000+ showed up. I received the fax from the Saints about the scrimmage, planned on going until I saw at the bottom that $28 would buy me a chance to watch the 2nd teamers scrimmage while I sat in Strawberry Stadium in Hammond. Truth is the Saints are trying to increase the fan base to outlying areas (that means you North Louisiana and you too Mississippi) by holding these things all over the place. They held practices at some high schools the past couple weeks also. My point is I didnt go because I will take off work and attend the free practice on Wednesday. Pretty much get the same satisfaction. The Saints aren't moving. There are too many people making too much money in New Orleans for this team to move. The governor, albeit with political motives, is floating ideas to build a new stadium in downtown NO and eventually I think it will happen. This city begrudgingly buys tickets to the Saints year in year out because on a Sunday afternoon there isnt anything else to do and we love the Saints. We also like #####ing about them too.

FWIW, the Packers charged $8 for their Green and Gold Family Night Scrimmage. 60,000 passed through the turnstyles, but they actually sold it out (~72,000)

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And mind you, this was not just a scrimmage. This was a chance to give back to the fans with a question and answer period, parking money going to charity, game jerseys being given away, fireworks, etc... It gave people who can't afford $250 tickets a chance to bring their kids to Lambeau. It is a relatively inexpensive Friday night where a family of 4 can enjoy Packer football (albeit a scrimmage) for under $100.

Thats how you draw 60,000 as opposed to 4400. I'd be willing to bet had the Packers charged $25 and only had a scrimmage without the bells and whistles, they dont' draw anywhere near that total.

And mind you, this was not just a scrimmage. This was a chance to give back to the fans with a question and answer period, parking money going to charity, game jerseys being given away, fireworks, etc... It gave people who can't afford $250 tickets a chance to bring their kids to Lambeau. It is a relatively inexpensive Friday night where a family of 4 can enjoy Packer football (albeit a scrimmage) for under $100.Thats how you draw 60,000 as opposed to 4400. I'd be willing to bet had the Packers charged $25 and only had a scrimmage without the bells and whistles, they dont' draw anywhere near that total.

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The Packers did it at night? I'll bet the weather was nice out (assuming no rain).In Hammond, LA -- even though this past weekend was unseasonably cool with highs around 88 -- sitting outside, during the day, is like being in a sauna. A lot of people avoid uncovered outdoor events just to avoid the heat and humidity.Some will not buy that excuse, but hey <shrug> -- that's life in southern Louisiana.

Black and Gold - $25-$28Green and Gold - $8If the Saints sold their tickets for $8, they would have sold out.It was a ridiculous comparison that was made in the email and Wimer trying to defend it by telling us that we should buy half of the team is even more ridiculous. I won't say that the Saints fans are more loyal than Green Bay but I will say they are more loyal than most teams in the league that have had more success.

Hey Y'all.

I just wish all the Saints' fans were as loyal and heart-felt as guderian and Doug B.

Were that the case, no doubt the Saints would not be struggling financially and a way to build a new stadium to help the franchise compete effectively would be found.

As things stand, the sad lack of local support for the franchise in the state legislature, among the businesses in the community, and at the governer's mansion -- as well as the sad attendance figures attested to by the Black and Gold #'s, that evidently results from a lack of enthusiasm in communities surrounding New Orleans (that also constitute part of their "small market", btw) -- make the continued existence of the franchise problematic.

BTW, Packers fans drive from all over the state of Wisconsin to go to their practices/scrimmages/home games, so the location of the Black and Gold scrimmage (a mere one hour away from New Orleans) isn't a valid excuse for the sad attendance.

If the price to gain entrance to the scrimmage was an issue (as some posters have implied) then I have to go back to looking at the situation thusly -- the local market is not excited enough about this team to support it financially. Perhaps the ownership of the team needs to make a "Falcons" type-move (the year Vick showed up they sold season tix for $100 in order to fill up the Georgia Dome, and it paid off in vastly increased attendance/parking/concessions). However, if the home games are regularly selling out already (as other posters have noted) then evidently price is not an issue... then I once again am led back to the notion that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the Saints in the local market...

My .02.

If the Saints sold their tickets for $8, they would have sold out.

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On top of that, even if the Saints scrimmage had sold out, Strawberry Stadium holds only 9,700. So it still would've looked like a thin crowd compared to Lambeau.

I've been to Louisiana in the summer.

Believe me....it SUX!!!

I do take umburage to a nasty little trick the Saints front office types are playing.

For those that don't know, the Saints and Falcons have had a nice private little rivalry going on for a few decades now. In each teams home game, you'd always see a large contingent of fans that had traveled to the games. Let me tell you it was fun! Even when both teams were absolutely putrid, it was still a lot of fun.

Guess what the Saints front office types have done this year?

Anybody with a Georgia zip code or phone number, can no longer by single game tickets. They have to buy a four game package.

Booooo Hissssss

If the price to gain entrance to the scrimmage was an issue (as some posters have implied) then I have to go back to looking at the situation thusly -- the local market is not excited enough about this team to support it financially. Perhaps the ownership of the team needs to make a "Falcons" type-move (the year Vick showed up they sold season tix for $100 in order to fill up the Georgia Dome, and it paid off in vastly increased attendance/parking/concessions). However, if the home games are regularly selling out already (as other posters have noted) then evidently price is not an issue... then I once again am led back to the notion that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the Saints in the local market...

My .02.

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Mark,Please read that again. You are arguing that because the Saints regularly sell out their games, the community doesn't support the team? :rotflmao:

New Orleans lives and dies with the Saints. Walk around any New Orleans school or office building on a Monday after a Saints win or loss. You could tell just by looking at people what happened on Sunday.

I completely agree that the business community and the state/local government has not stepped up to find solutions to keep the team here, but the fans could not have more of a connection, or love for this team.

Wimer, you're way out of line here. You keep trying to minimize the fan support here in order to justify some assinine statement you made in an email. The fan loyalty here is tremendous considering the teams past, and the perception of the owner by most people down here. Like it was said earlier, for us to sell out consistently w/o the help of corporate buyouts is impressive. Look at Miami. Just a few years ago they couldn't sell out a playoff game. That is weak. Do you think that they might move to LA?

I've been to Louisiana in the summer.

Believe me....it SUX!!!

I do take umburage to a nasty little trick the Saints front office types are playing.

For those that don't know, the Saints and Falcons have had a nice private little rivalry going on for a few decades now. In each teams home game, you'd always see a large contingent of fans that had traveled to the games. Let me tell you it was fun! Even when both teams were absolutely putrid, it was still a lot of fun.

Guess what the Saints front office types have done this year?

Anybody with a Georgia zip code or phone number, can no longer by single game tickets. They have to buy a four game package.

Booooo Hissssss

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That is only in response to the fact that The Falcons ticket office was busted violating league rules by not answering phone calls coming from the 504 area code in the weeks leading up to the Saints game. Boo Hisss!

Were that the case, no doubt the Saints would not be struggling financially and a way to build a new stadium to help the franchise compete effectively would be found.

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The new stadium is coming. The wheels grind slowly in New Orleans, but they grind just the same.

As things stand, the sad lack of local support for the franchise in the state legislature, among the businesses in the community, and at the governer's mansion -- as well as the sad attendance figures attested to by the Black and Gold #'s, that evidently results from a lack of enthusiasm in communities surrounding New Orleans (that also constitute part of their "small market", btw) -- make the continued existence of the franchise problematic.

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You are more or less correct about some members of the state legislature. There is something of a split between N.O.-area legislators and those from elsewhere. There is a perception that the state doing for the Saints helps only New Orleans and shortchanges the rest of the state. Some of the more outspoken legislators take digs at the Saints' losing past, as if had the Saints won some Super Bowls, they'd be smiling as they rubber-stamped Saints-friendly legislation.However, I am glad to report that Gov Kathleen Blanco is slowly softening her stance toward the Saints. She came into office last year as essentially an anti-Saints candidate. However, she has met with owner Tom Benson several times since taking office to better understand the team's concerns (as opposed to stonewalling him). Also, Blanco has appointed a commission to plan stadium construction in conjunction with building new convention space in downtown New Orleans' riverfront (thus piggybacking the stadium efforts onto an existing project).

It should be noted that Blanco's predecessor, Gov Mike Foster, started his first term as an anti-Saint, only to become one of the Saints biggest proponents in state politics eight years later. Blanco looks poised to do the same, and both her staff and the Saints' front office have done a great job at keeping the lines of communication both open and frequently used.

BTW, Packers fans drive from all over the state of Wisconsin to go to their practices/scrimmages/home games, so the location of the Black and Gold scrimmage (a mere one hour away from New Orleans) isn't a valid excuse for the sad attendance.

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I don't think the drive is a legitimate excuse, either. There are nearby major population centers in both Baton Rouge and on the Northshore of Lake Pontchartrain. 9,700 reasonably-priced tickets could have been sold for a good product (see below).

If the price to gain entrance to the scrimmage was an issue (as some posters have implied) then I have to go back to looking at the situation thusly -- the local market is not excited enough about this team to support it financially.

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Honestly, the product the Saints puts out in hosting a way-too-short scrimmage is not worth the money. Literally, you walk in, choose a nice seat. sit down, get up to go buy a drink, return to your seat, and the scrimmage is close to over. When I first attended in 2000, I coldn't believe that it was over so fast.If it was a more widely-varied fan event like the Packers' scrimmage, that would make it worth more to the fans.

Perhaps the ownership of the team needs to make a "Falcons" type-move (the year Vick showed up they sold season tix for $100 in order to fill up the Georgia Dome, and it paid off in vastly increased attendance/parking/concessions).

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This was done last season -- the Saints started selling $150 season tickets in 2003. They've been a smashing success, much like in Atlanta.

However, if the home games are regularly selling out already (as other posters have noted) then evidently price is not an issue... then I once again am led back to the notion that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the Saints in the local market.

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It's not as clear-cut as just pinning the relatively low attendance on lack of fan enthusiasm, IMHO. I will say that some fence-sitting Saints fans are cynical, and want to see an established winning team before commiting to the team heart, soul, and pocketbook.

That is only in response to the fact that The Falcons ticket office was busted violating league rules by not answering phone calls coming from the 504 area code in the weeks leading up to the Saints game. Boo Hisss!

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Dang!!!I didn't know that.Both our Front Offices suck.I used to love going to any and all Saints Falcons games. It's just not the same anymore.Darn these meddling Front Office people.

If the price to gain entrance to the scrimmage was an issue then I have to go back to looking at the situation thusly -- the local market is not excited enough about this team to support it financially.

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If price wasn't an issue for the Packers then why do they only charge $8? You are implying that price isn't an issue for the Packers, but that doesn't explain why they have to charge only $8 to get 60,000 fans and throw in fireworks, jersey auctions, etc., etc. If price wasn't an issue, then why don't they charge $20+???

However, if the home games are regularly selling out already ... then I once again am led back to the notion that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the Saints in the local market.

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Non sequitor. Home games selling out=lack of enthusiasm? It is interesting that you apparently view scrimmage attendance as a better indicator of "enthusiasm" then forking over hundreds--or even thousands of dollars to buy season tickets.

If the price to gain entrance to the scrimmage was an issue then I have to go back to looking at the situation thusly -- the local market is not excited enough about this team to support it financially.

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If price wasn't an issue for the Packers then why do they only charge $8? You are implying that price isn't an issue for the Packers, but that doesn't explain why they have to charge only $8 to get 60,000 fans and throw in fireworks, jersey auctions, etc., etc. If price wasn't an issue, then why don't they charge $20+???

However, if the home games are regularly selling out already ... then I once again am led back to the notion that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the Saints in the local market.

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Non sequitor. Home games selling out=lack of enthusiasm?

It is interesting that you apparently view scrimmage attendance as a better indicator of "enthusiasm" then forking over hundreds--or even thousands of dollars to buy season tickets.

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Look, my point there was that if price is an issue in the surrounding communities (which are, after all, part of the local market), even though y'all regularly sell out in New Orleans, then there is obviously a lack of enthusiasm about the Saints among your outlying communities (they didn't attend in great numbers at the going rate). Y'all can tell me how great N'Arlins fans are and how much support they have in the community until the cows come home, and my question to you will always be this: If the team has such a great fan base and N'Arlins such abiding love for the team, why is the team struggling financially? Why don't the elected officials who represent these loyal and loving fans respond to the wishes of their constituency to keep the team financially viable and help finance a new stadium? Heck, you loyal Saints fans could put a referendum on the ballot for a .02 a gallon gasoline tax in the muncipality of New Orleans (or some other such local tax) to pay for the new stadium if y'all wanted to do so, since that tourism tax on hotel rooms (a tax on mostly non-N'Arlins residents, BTW) isn't doing the trick.

I'm sure that the Saints fans in the N'Arlins area are very die-hard (like I said above, if they had 484,000+ guderians and Doug B's, the franchise would have no problems staying in N'Arlins), however I am unconvinced that the larger population (the ~484,000 people in N'Arlins and the larger population in the outlying communities/TV Market) are fans of the team in the way that Wisconsonites are fans of the Green Bay Packers. Yet both teams are small market teams, and both teams have endured periods of futility in recent memory regarding record and results (remember when Chris Berman used to call the Tampa Bay/Green Bay game the "Bay of Pigs" game?), as I detailed above.

Any way you want to slice it, I see the poor attendance at the scrimmage (regardless of price, weather, driving distance or a plague of giant Bayou mosquitoes -- whatever!) as one among a number of signs of an unenthused fan base or some large portion of the potential fan base, regardless of how die-hard the core Saints fans in the area are.

I've had my say on this now. Y'all can be mad at me if you want to be.

Y'all can tell me how great N'Arlins fans are and how much support they have in the community until the cows come home, and my question to you will always be this: If the team has such a great fan base and N'Arlins such abiding love for the team, why is the team struggling financially?

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Mark, I disagree with your premise -- I don't think the team is struggling financially in absolute terms. In relative terms, the Saints certainly have a case, but their concerns have already been addressed and are continuing to be addressed.There have been some tough years in recent memory, however, for the team's finances. The Saints were in the red in 2000 and 2001 due in large part to paying off Mike Ditka's contract. In 2002 the Saints made money again. In 2003, the Saints led the NFL in bonus-money payouts, and may well have ended up in the red again (I haven't yet seen the 2003 figures). I'd say the conditions of the past few seasons have been somewhat extraordinary -- the Saints made plenty of money throughout the 90s, and the franchise's value has at least doubled since 1990.

The state of Louisiana has a deal with the Saints to provide the team a lump-sum payment every summer (for the next ten years) to help make up the profit shortfall the Saints incur compared to the profits of the Giants, Jets, Cowboys, Redkins, Titans, etc. While Gov Blanco initially bristled at this arrangement made by her predecessor, the state ultimately came up with the money, and has resolved to see the original agreement through (pending construction of a new stadium).

1) The Saints have a deal with the state to stay in New Orleans. The deal required the state to pay the Saints $15 million this year--which they did. The only issue is that the money was supposed to come from a tourism supported tax. Tourism has fallen off after 9/11 and the state paid the resulting difference out of general funds. 2) According to Forbes the Packers are the 16th most valuable NFL franchise with revenues of $152 million. The Saints are the 20th most valuable franchsie with revenues of $146 million. Not much of a difference (Brett Favre jerseys?) considering the Saints have won 10 fewer games than the Packers over the past 3 years. It doesn't appear that this yawning gap in fan support between New Orleans and Green Bay that you allege has manifest in a significant difference in revenues.3) Things must be going pretty well in the Wimer household if you can't recognize the difference in taking a family of four to a Packers entertainment extravaganza (cost of $30 +) compared to a Saints scrimmage ($100+). I am not "mad at you", I just don't think you had a thorough understanding of all of the facts when you made your assertion that the Saints "lack fan support" and I took issue with the assertion. The only thing that keeps the Packers from confronting the same issues as the Saints is an archaic ownership structure that has been out-lawed by the NFL and, IIRC, pre-dates the Saints existence as a franchise.

The only thing that keeps the Packers from confronting the same issues as the Saints is an archaic ownership structure that has been out-lawed by the NFL and, IIRC, pre-dates the Saints existence as a franchise.

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The Packers went public in 1922. They have had three subsequent stock drives -- in 1935, 1950, and 1997-98. The 1997-98 drive helped fund recent renovations to Lambeau Field.

Link to NFL rules regarding community ownership. These rules were implemented in 1960, six years before New Orleans was awarded an NFL franchise.

Don't know how I got roped into to reading that entire thread, but now feel the need to comment. I am not a Saints fan, did not read the email, and am basing my comments on the sentiment displayed in the thread. Wimer, you are way out of line. There is no reason to question the loyalty of the Saints fanbase, and it is somewhat ridiculous to compare the Saints to the Packers. I especially find it troubling that you claim "Wisconsinites" are more loyal football fans than residents in the surrounding counties in NOLA. It is completely apples to oranges. Your statement about blaming the local elected officials for not instilling a tax to save the team is nearly laughable. Perhaps you are living in a fantasy football vacuum, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon to recognize that the City of New Orleans has a plethora of social issues impacting quality of life that trump any and all discussions of football. Green Bay does not have such issues, and as such, "Wisconsinites" can devote much more time to football, and to attending scrimmages.

Hey Y'all.

I just wish all the Saints' fans were as loyal and heart-felt as guderian and Doug B.

Were that the case, no doubt the Saints would not be struggling financially and a way to build a new stadium to help the franchise compete effectively would be found.

As things stand, the sad lack of local support for the franchise in the state legislature, among the businesses in the community, and at the governer's mansion -- as well as the sad attendance figures attested to by the Black and Gold #'s, that evidently results from a lack of enthusiasm in communities surrounding New Orleans (that also constitute part of their "small market", btw) -- make the continued existence of the franchise problematic.

BTW, Packers fans drive from all over the state of Wisconsin to go to their practices/scrimmages/home games, so the location of the Black and Gold scrimmage (a mere one hour away from New Orleans) isn't a valid excuse for the sad attendance.

If the price to gain entrance to the scrimmage was an issue (as some posters have implied) then I have to go back to looking at the situation thusly -- the local market is not excited enough about this team to support it financially. Perhaps the ownership of the team needs to make a "Falcons" type-move (the year Vick showed up they sold season tix for $100 in order to fill up the Georgia Dome, and it paid off in vastly increased attendance/parking/concessions). However, if the home games are regularly selling out already (as other posters have noted) then evidently price is not an issue... then I once again am led back to the notion that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the Saints in the local market...

My .02.

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Mark, I have a few points to make concerning this post, before you say "Fine, be mad at me."First, the issues in the legislature are not Saints issues. They go back to the long-standing sentiment of New Orleans vs. the rest of the state. Many in the legislature resent New Orleans for all that it is: a cash cow, a vice den and a crime-ridden city. However, they also know that without New Orleans, the state of Louisiana would be: Mississippi (no offense to the fine people of Mississippi, but you know what I mean). The Saints are just another battle in a long war, but in the end the Saints will get what they need. But no one is going to make it easy.

Second, you truly do offend when you makes statements like "I just wish all the Saints' fans were as loyal and heart-felt as guderian and Doug B." It also speaks to your ignorance. I'm not sure that there are too many fans that have suffered quite as nobly as Saints fans. To put fan support purely in the realm of the financial, especially for a city with a poverty-rate like ours, is ignoring the emotional ties this city has with its team. The Hornets could only dream of having fans with the same emotional investment.

Finally, the Saints have replicated the Falcons' season-ticket plan, offering season tickets for $150. This is the second year the Sales Office has offered these tickets. In fact, they broke their franchise record for most season tickets sold last year.

The only reason I'm posting this is that from your statements it obvious that you are outsider looking in. It would be like me trying to analyze Bengals fans based on a handful of numbers and news reports. I don't live there, so what do I know about the average fan? I'm sure you didn't mean to offend anyone when you wrote your opinion, and obviously you are entitled to it. But criticizing Saints' fans for lack of enthusiasm is tantamount to "fightin' words."



'Aints Fan

If the price to gain entrance to the scrimmage was an issue (as some posters have implied) then I have to go back to looking at the situation thusly -- the local market is not excited enough about this team to support it financially. Perhaps the ownership of the team needs to make a "Falcons" type-move (the year Vick showed up they sold season tix for $100 in order to fill up the Georgia Dome, and it paid off in vastly increased attendance/parking/concessions). However, if the home games are regularly selling out already (as other posters have noted) then evidently price is not an issue... then I once again am led back to the notion that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the Saints in the local market...

My .02.

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Mark,Please read that again. You are arguing that because the Saints regularly sell out their games, the community doesn't support the team? :rotflmao:

New Orleans lives and dies with the Saints. Walk around any New Orleans school or office building on a Monday after a Saints win or loss. You could tell just by looking at people what happened on Sunday.

I completely agree that the business community and the state/local government has not stepped up to find solutions to keep the team here, but the fans could not have more of a connection, or love for this team.

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Good post. He obviously has no idea what he is talking about. And I honestly do not mean that as a cut down. It is just clear that he is ignorant regarding Saints fans and their love for their team.

Mark,I am beginning to take great umbrage with your flagrant use of y'all.Your arguments about fan support in New Orleans, not N'Arlins are contrived and have no basis in fact other than the Saints sold out about half of the available tickets to a scrimmage that you so obviously know nothing about. Several others have already done a fine job posting the differences between the Pack scrimmage and ours and any one with a modicum of sense in their head can see how/why the Pack got all those fans to attend, except you. Your claims about no outlying support for the Saints are false as well. It is about a 3 hour drive for me on Sundays (granted traffic does play a part there) to get to a game. My family and just about every single person I know are season ticket holders, none of us are residents of LA. The Saints did a promotional stop here in Mobile and close to 2,000 fans showed up for little more than a brief autograph session. Saints fans come to games, which mind you do not currently allow tailgating from as far away as the Pan-handle of FL and all along the Gulf Coast, Southern AL and MS.The Saints have fielded a poor to fair product but have always enjoyed fantastic fan support to say otherwise is ludicrous. The problem is zero to none corp. sponsorship due to the utter lack of fortune 500 companies not the fans. Sure the locals of New Orleans can put pressure on the STATE government to help the Saints but how does that make up for the 90% of the rest of the voters who live in other parts of the state? How many states are funding fair to poor NFL teams? Can you find me one city in the US today that would pass even a .02 cent tax increase on gasoline right now? Seattle residents would not even pass a similar tax on coffee to fund education. How can you possible expect a community that already diverts state funds to increase taxes in order to fund football right now? Pure hubris on your part.Finally it’s Nawlins not N’Arlins just one more example that you are writing about a subject that you know absolutely nothing about. Just how exactly you did get to write that piece the other day is utterly baffling to me but what sickens more is how your editor let such a blatant slant of the facts and a personal attack on dedicated Saints fan even get sent out. Both show a total lack of judgment.You have failed to show any supporting facts about your opinion piece Mark, have offended several members of this board and definitely one subscriber. Recant your blasphemous lies and apologize. Plead ignorance if you must but please no more Saints articles from you. You obviously do not know the first thing about them or their fans.It is interesting to note that you also happened to pick the one team in the NFL to compare the Saints to that probably enjoys the second largest following in my area. The Colts are climbing with Peyton but Brett Farve won a Superbowl in the Superdome in front of a home crowd and that’s the closest any of us locals have even sniffed the Lombardi trophy. You know the one Mark, the one they give away to the NFL championship team, the one named after the longtime Packers coach, not a "storied" franchise with worldwide fan support my ####.edited for a few typos

I also failed to mention that the Black and Gold scrimmage was televised live Saturday night and was Cox Sports Television's highest rated show ever, beating all of the Hornet's games over the past two seasons in ratings.

I also failed to mention that the Black and Gold scrimmage was televised live Saturday night and was Cox Sports Television's highest rated show ever, beating all of the Hornet's games over the past two seasons in ratings.

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Oh yeah ... forgot about that. Being televised probably kep the attendance down, regrettably.

Saints fans unite!

Saints fans unite!

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This thread reminds me a lot of the run-ins profootballtalk.com's Mike Florio had with Saints fans in 2000. At the time, Florio was writing editorials for a now-defunct site (nfltalk.com? footballtalk.com? I forget).Anyway, Florio came out with a column that ripped New Orleans and the Saints to shreds. He wrote a lot of bizzare things, like that football wasn't as popular in the Deep South as it is in the Midwest (!), and that New Orleans' French cultural heritage wasn't in line with supporting a hard-nosed sport like football. He even called the fleur de lis a sissified logo (obviously ignorant of the symbols military significance).

Suffice it to say that Florio had a full e-mail box for a couple of months (including one from yours truly). Saints fans came out of the woodwork to defend the team. On the main Saints message boards, Florio's e-mail address was posted, and fans rallied round to set Florio straight.

Florio later wrote another column admitting surprise at the vigor and enthusiasm the Saints fans showed in defending their team against his diatribe.

Moral of the story: we may be po', but we're proud!

Quite frankly I expect a little more from the FBG staff.

The saints don't have a loyal fanbase.ABSOLUTE GARBAGENawlins cares about 3 things.FootballFoodDrinking.I'm not sure what order, but they are almost all equal in level of importance to us.New Orleanians don't go to many (if any) outdoor activities from June - Mid September. When the heat index is above 95 at 7 in the morning wherever you live, then you might understand. Until then, shut Ya'lls ignorant mouth.And its Nawlins....get it right.

I am glad to see quite a few Saints fans read this board. Have any of yall headed to the morning practices? I am going tomorrow so hopefully it is a good one.

I am glad to see quite a few Saints fans read this board. Have any of yall headed to the morning practices? I am going tomorrow so hopefully it is a good one.

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I made the mistake of going to the first one.It was a decent day with cloud cover & I still roasted a nut. Its just not worth it to see guys stretch for 20 minutes.

Having grown up in the Easy and worked for the Saints, let me ask this. Have any of you besides the obvious NOLA locals present in the thread ever spent any great deal of time outdoors in south Louisiana during late July or August? The humidity is horrific. Throw in the fact that Hammond is right on the water/swamp and the weather is that much worse. Even when the team practiced at the old facility in Kenner very few...very few...media types, much less fans, showed up for practices, when open to the public. The reason being that Hell would offer a more comfortable climate than New Orleans in August. More often than not the summer interns got sent out for sound bites, photos and video. The facemen and suits sent someone else to do the grunt work until the climate cooled. Trust me that I found the summer weather in Wisconsin much more appealing, when the Saints were part of the Cheese League and trained above the Mason-Dixon, and understand why teams that train up north have many more people showing up to practices everyday. 85 with 30% is nice. Imagine 95-98 with 98-99% humidity...everyday...all day. Nobody wants to sit outside in that mess any longer than necessary. Players and coaches don't. Staff doesn't. Media doesn't. Lastly, fans do not. It is not a lack of caring. It is a matter of comfort or discomfort, depending on how you view the topic. The team did not expect a high turn-out, if and when practices were public, in the months of July; August or early September. It was a given that the extreme weather would keep fan participation to a minimum.

...what...

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homo sayz what