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Humanitarian crisis at US border (1 Viewer)

So, I was at J.C Penny yesterday buying my daughter some sweats for basketball. There were some leftover bags on clearance from the World Cup, a bunch of U.S.As and some other countries were represented. We picked U.S.A (her choice). At the checkout, the saleslady (an old lady, white about 50ish) asked if there were any other bags left as she wanted to get one for her granddaughter. I said "yeah, lots of different countries, tons of Mexico left" . She looked at me with a look of disgust and made a comment about how there is no way her granddaughter would want a Mexican bag and then followed it with a comment denigrating "those illegals" who were "snaking there way in".

Guys...this is J.C Penny I am talking about with a 50 year old lady that I do not know. This is blowing up. People are pissed. You cannot just randomly let people into the country carte blanche. NO OTHER COUNTRY ALLOWS THIS KIND OF CRAP. Once again, president dipsh*t, tries to manipulate something that is way above his pay scale and it blows up in his face. I am all for a system that lets people go through a citizenship process to get in, I would even spend money to expand it, but this is nuts. Anyone who argues otherwise is a certified lunatic.

A good litmus test would be to see whether or not you agree with 500 of these kids getting dumped into your school district next year. It would severely stretch the resources of your district, would most certainly cause your taxes to rise, and would have a negative effect on any of your own kids attending that district. Who here would actually agree to that? If you are cool with this, that is what you are agreeing to...and the schools are just the tip of the iceberg.

 
So, I was at J.C Penny yesterday buying my daughter some sweats for basketball. There were some leftover bags on clearance from the World Cup, a bunch of U.S.As and some other countries were represented. We picked U.S.A (her choice). At the checkout, the saleslady (an old lady, white about 50ish) asked if there were any other bags left as she wanted to get one for her granddaughter. I said "yeah, lots of different countries, tons of Mexico left" . She looked at me with a look of disgust and made a comment about how there is no way her granddaughter would want a Mexican bag and then followed it with a comment denigrating "those illegals" who were "snaking there way in".

Guys...this is J.C Penny I am talking about with a 50 year old lady that I do not know. This is blowing up. People are pissed. You cannot just randomly let people into the country carte blanche. NO OTHER COUNTRY ALLOWS THIS KIND OF CRAP. Once again, president dipsh*t, tries to manipulate something that is way above his pay scale and it blows up in his face. I am all for a system that lets people go through a citizenship process to get in, I would even spend money to expand it, but this is nuts. Anyone who argues otherwise is a certified lunatic.

A good litmus test would be to see whether or not you agree with 500 of these kids getting dumped into your school district next year. It would severely stretch the resources of your district, would most certainly cause your taxes to rise, and would have a negative effect on any of your own kids attending that district. Who here would actually agree to that? If you are cool with this, that is what you are agreeing to...and the schools are just the tip of the iceberg.
So what's your solution?

IMHO, the root of the problem is people breeding who cannot afford to even properly care for themselves (not from Mexico, I'm talking worldwide...American citizens most-definitely included). But since people are too stupid/selfish/in denial to proactively address the real problem, what type of reactive solution do you think will work best?

If you were living on the South side of a river, and your family was living in poverty...maybe even starving, and you had the choice of staying put and making $1, or sneaking across the river illegally and quietly making ~$2, what might you choose? Of course, the better way to go would be to cross the river LEGALLY and put yourself in a position to make $4. But you don't have 4-5 years to keep your family from starving. Keep some of your kids from dying from treatable diseases. So again, if it were you, what would you choose? Stay South of the river and make your buck, and take your chances related to not watching your kids die from disease or slowly starve to death, or break some laws and take some chances to try and provide them with more of a fighting chance?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
So, I was at J.C Penny yesterday buying my daughter some sweats for basketball. There were some leftover bags on clearance from the World Cup, a bunch of U.S.As and some other countries were represented. We picked U.S.A (her choice). At the checkout, the saleslady (an old lady, white about 50ish) asked if there were any other bags left as she wanted to get one for her granddaughter. I said "yeah, lots of different countries, tons of Mexico left" . She looked at me with a look of disgust and made a comment about how there is no way her granddaughter would want a Mexican bag and then followed it with a comment denigrating "those illegals" who were "snaking there way in".

Guys...this is J.C Penny I am talking about with a 50 year old lady that I do not know. This is blowing up. People are pissed. You cannot just randomly let people into the country carte blanche. NO OTHER COUNTRY ALLOWS THIS KIND OF CRAP. Once again, president dipsh*t, tries to manipulate something that is way above his pay scale and it blows up in his face. I am all for a system that lets people go through a citizenship process to get in, I would even spend money to expand it, but this is nuts. Anyone who argues otherwise is a certified lunatic.

A good litmus test would be to see whether or not you agree with 500 of these kids getting dumped into your school district next year. It would severely stretch the resources of your district, would most certainly cause your taxes to rise, and would have a negative effect on any of your own kids attending that district. Who here would actually agree to that? If you are cool with this, that is what you are agreeing to...and the schools are just the tip of the iceberg.
So what's your solution?

IMHO, the root of the problem is people breeding who cannot afford to even properly care for themselves (not from Mexico, I'm talking worldwide...American citizens most-definitely included). But since people are too stupid/selfish/in denial to proactively address the real problem, what type of reactive solution do you think will work best?

If you were living on the South side of a river, and your family was living in poverty...maybe even starving, and you had the choice of staying put and making $1, or sneaking across the river illegally and quietly making ~$2, what might you choose? Of course, the better way to go would be to cross the river LEGALLY and put yourself in a position to make $4. But you don't have 4-5 years to keep your family from starving. Keep some of your kids from dying from treatable diseases. So again, if it were you, what would you choose? Stay South of the river and make your buck, and take your chances related to not watching your kids die from disease or slowly starve to death, or break some laws and take some chances to try and provide them with more of a fighting chance?
The solution is to seal the border. Build a triple fence with electrified wire across the entire border. Build a system where it is not worth their while to try to cross illegally.

In a perfect world it would be great to allow all suffering people into our country, but we are not set up for that. Let them apply the regular way. Like I said, once you seal the border we could expand the program and provide more opportunities and then give people who are here illegally opportunities for amnesty. But turning large swaths of our country into 3rd world Latin American replicas solves nothing. It makes own country weaker. Municipalities are already stretched to their breaking point with resources, so unless we fight this off, we are doomed to become just like them.

Another idea would be to put a 50% non negotiable surtax on anyone earning over $500,000 a year in any way, including capital gains. That would be the altruistic thing to do and it would force alot of these windbag limousine liberals to put their money where their mouth is. Would Zuckerberg, Buffet, or Gates give 50% to absorb these people? If they committed to that, I would be down with letting anyone in...shared sacrifice, right?

Something tells me they would balk at that though....probably because they are total phonies.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
http://reason.com/archives/2014/07/15/foreign-kids-and-americas-huckleberry-fi

Here's a question for the proud Americans demanding that the unaccompanied foreign children showing up at our borders be deported: Suppose that one of these "illegal" minors was your neighbor, living with his aunt and uncle, going to school during the day, kicking ball with friends in the evening, trying hard to put the traumatic journey from his native, violence-ridden country to America behind him. Would you, with a clear conscience, pick up the phone and turn him in?

America is blessed with a rich and stable neighbor on the north and oceans on the east and west. Hence, it is naturally insulated from the nasty side effects of civil wars, famines and other catastrophes outside its borders that other countries routinely confront. But unless it relocates to another planet, it can't completely cut itself off from foreign upheavals, especially those it has a hand in causing.

Anti-immigration hardliners are blaming the surge of minors—90,000 alone this year, a five-fold increase from 2011 — on America's lenient deportation policies and the prospect of "amnesty." The reality is more complicated.

The surge comes almost exclusively from three of the most dangerous countries in the hemisphere—Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala. Why are they so dangerous? In part, because of America's illicit drug war

This trillion-dollar war puts the onus on Latin American countries to stop drugs from flowing into the US—rather than on the US to curb its own appetite. America has conditioned aid and market access on how hard these countries crackdown on drug dealers.

This hasn't dampened the drug trade one whit, but has driven it into the hands of dangerous drug cartels. Five years ago, half of Honduras was outside the government's control. In El Salvador, rival drug gangs shake down schools for recruits and money. Drug dealers even fund political campaigns in Guatemala to elect their candidates. Caught between the authorities and drug cartels are innocent civilians, especially the poor and powerless who are increasingly helpless in protecting their children.

That's why 66 percent of the kids from El Salvador and 44 percent from Honduras cite organized violence as their main reason for fleeing, according to a UN survey.

No doubt some kids are hoping to take advantage of a Bush-era law against human trafficking requiring that unaccompanied minors be given an asylum hearing and be placed in the "least restrictive setting"—such as their families—in the interim. (If their fathers are with them, they are almost certain to be turned away.)

However, because the burden of proving that they face a physical threat back home is so impossible, many of them simply melt away into the undocumented underclass rather than show up for their hearing.

A compassionate people would demand that these kids be given usable options for applying for asylum in their home countries so that they wouldn't have to undertake a dangerous journey with "coyotes"—human smugglers mixed up in the drug trade.

Instead, America is arguably experiencing its worst spasm of nativism since the early 20th Century. Then, magazines such as Judge ran cartoons depicting a Statue of Liberty with a Chinese face welcoming crime-prone and diseased immigrants. Now, protesters in towns like Murrieta, California, are turning away buses carrying these kids to shelters, accusing them of being scabies-infected law-breakers.

But such nativism will ultimately run into what University of California's John S.W. Park calls America's "Huckleberry Finn Problem." Slavery unraveled because, like Mark Twain's Huck Finn who helped Jim, a slave, escape, Americans couldn't bear to enforce anti-fugitive laws preventing blacks from fleeing to freedom. "Inflicting the law became hard," notes Park, "when there was so much evidence of common humanity." The heroes of that era are not folks like Supreme Court Justice Roger Taney, the author of the Dred Scott ruling who brilliantly argued to enforce slavery because it was the law of the land, but abolitionists like Harriet Beecher Stove who broke that law.

The same is happening now. There is no movement of private citizens turning in illegals because most Americans, even those who don't disagree with America's restrictive border policies, would feel "icky" doing so—just like Huck Finn couldn't bear to turn in Jim even though he accepted slavery as ordained by God. But sanctuary cities are cropping up in America offering safe haven, also what happened during slavery.

Laws requiring the government to do what private citizens can't bring themselves to do are wrong, especially in a country founded on the notion that a government's powers can't exceed those of its people.

Nativism, with its hectoring to enforce a cruel borderline, appeals neither to America's humanity nor its commitment to limited government – which is why it'll ultimately lose. The question is whether it'll claim these foreign kids as casualties in the meantime

 
So, I was at J.C Penny yesterday buying my daughter some sweats for basketball. There were some leftover bags on clearance from the World Cup, a bunch of U.S.As and some other countries were represented. We picked U.S.A (her choice). At the checkout, the saleslady (an old lady, white about 50ish) asked if there were any other bags left as she wanted to get one for her granddaughter. I said "yeah, lots of different countries, tons of Mexico left" . She looked at me with a look of disgust and made a comment about how there is no way her granddaughter would want a Mexican bag and then followed it with a comment denigrating "those illegals" who were "snaking there way in".

Guys...this is J.C Penny I am talking about with a 50 year old lady that I do not know. This is blowing up. People are pissed. You cannot just randomly let people into the country carte blanche. NO OTHER COUNTRY ALLOWS THIS KIND OF CRAP. Once again, president dipsh*t, tries to manipulate something that is way above his pay scale and it blows up in his face. I am all for a system that lets people go through a citizenship process to get in, I would even spend money to expand it, but this is nuts. Anyone who argues otherwise is a certified lunatic.

A good litmus test would be to see whether or not you agree with 500 of these kids getting dumped into your school district next year. It would severely stretch the resources of your district, would most certainly cause your taxes to rise, and would have a negative effect on any of your own kids attending that district. Who here would actually agree to that? If you are cool with this, that is what you are agreeing to...and the schools are just the tip of the iceberg.
So what's your solution?

IMHO, the root of the problem is people breeding who cannot afford to even properly care for themselves (not from Mexico, I'm talking worldwide...American citizens most-definitely included). But since people are too stupid/selfish/in denial to proactively address the real problem, what type of reactive solution do you think will work best?

If you were living on the South side of a river, and your family was living in poverty...maybe even starving, and you had the choice of staying put and making $1, or sneaking across the river illegally and quietly making ~$2, what might you choose? Of course, the better way to go would be to cross the river LEGALLY and put yourself in a position to make $4. But you don't have 4-5 years to keep your family from starving. Keep some of your kids from dying from treatable diseases. So again, if it were you, what would you choose? Stay South of the river and make your buck, and take your chances related to not watching your kids die from disease or slowly starve to death, or break some laws and take some chances to try and provide them with more of a fighting chance?
The solution is to seal the border. Build a triple fence with electrified wire across the entire border. Build a system where it is not worth their while to try to cross illegally.

In a perfect world it would be great to allow all suffering people into our country, but we are not set up for that. Let them apply the regular way. Like I said, once you seal the border we could expand the program and provide more opportunities and then give people who are here illegally opportunities for amnesty. But turning large swaths of our country into 3rd world Latin American replicas solves nothing. It makes own country weaker. Municipalities are already stretched to their breaking point with resources, so unless we fight this off, we are doomed to become just like them.

Another idea would be to put a 50% non negotiable surtax on anyone earning over $500,000 a year in any way, including capital gains. That would be the altruistic thing to do and it would force alot of these windbag limousine liberals to put their money where their mouth is. Would Zuckerberg, Buffet, or Gates give 50% to absorb these people? If they committed to that, I would be down with letting anyone in...shared sacrifice, right?

Something tells me they would balk at that though....probably because they are total phonies.
What about a DMZ with a carpet of land mines? Or drone strikes? Or machine guns set to automatically shoot at anything that moves in said DMZ?! ;)

Obviously a bit of sarcasm there. But again, you or your family are dying/starving anyway. You think a triple fence with electrified wire will keep people out?! How far below ground will the fence extend? How far out into the Gulf of Mexico or the Pacific Ocean? Again, imagine you or the people who mean the world to you are already basically dead anyway...so if you could buy a "lotto ticket" (slim chance of making it safely into the United States, and making WAY more money...while being provided with much better healthcare that everyone else will pay for) where if you lose, about the worst that happens to you is you get three-square and a cot for a while before being flown/driven back to the same ####-hole you started from, would you do it?!

I'm all for securing the borders too! But I think people who think that we can make our borders 100% secure are like those Mac users who think their computers are 100% safe from viruses and malware. ;)

 
Here's some more facts that prove that just about everything Sarnoff claims about this issue is total crap:

http://reason.com/archives/2014/07/11/immigrants-are-less-criminal-than-native

Immigration, especially illegal immigration, leads to more crime, assert some anti-immigrant think tanks. A 2010 poll in Utah found that 62 percent of respondents "definitely" or "probably" agreed that illegal immigrants are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime. A 2007 poll conducted on behalf of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice poll also reported that “62 percent of people polled believed illegal immigration is tied to rising crime.” The National Opinion Research Center’s 2000 General Social Survey asked whether “more immigrants cause higher crime rates.” Twenty-five percent of respondents said “very likely” and an additional 48 percent answered “somewhat likely.”

In fact, most research today finds that immigrants, including undocumented ones, are less prone to crime than are native-born Americans. A 2008 study by researchers at the Public Policy Institute of California found that “the foreign-born, who make up about 35 percent of the adult population in California, constitute only about 17 percent of the adult prison population.” They further noted, “U.S.-born adult men are incarcerated at a rate over two-and-a-half times greater than that of foreign-born men.” A 2010 report from the Berkeley Center for Criminal Justice observed that, between 1991 and 2008, when nearly 3.7 million foreign-born people, about a third of whom were “unauthorized” immigrants, moved to California, the state’s violent crime rate fell by 55 percent. The national violent crime rate also has fallen by more than 70 percent since its peak in 1993 even as the number of immigrants residing here swelled from 20 to 40 million over the past two decades.

In fact, the findings in a 2010 study on immigrant populations in America’s larger cities “suggest that growth in immigration may have been responsible for part of the precipitous crime drop of the 1990s.”

On the other hand, there are a few studies that do find a correlation between immigration and higher property crime rates. Using county-level crime and immigrant data between 1980 and 2000, University of Chicago researcher Jorg Spenkuch calculates that “a ten percent increase in the share of immigrants—roughly one percentage point based on numbers from the 2000 Census—is estimated to lead to an increase in the property crime rate of circa 1.2 percent, while the rate of violent crimes remains essentially unaffected.”

In 2008, Arizona started enforcing its Legal Arizona Workers Act (LAWA), which imposed sanctions on businesses that hired undocumented workers. As a consequence of LAWA, lots of young noncitizen male Mexican migrants left the state. Using data generated by this natural experiment for his 2013 study, University of Cincinnati criminal justice researcher, Aaron Chalfin finds, “After 2008, Arizona's crime rate (particularly its property crime rate) declined by approximately 10 percent implying that the decline in the foreign-born Mexican share induced by LAWA resulted in a decline in property crimes of more than 20 percent.”

Let’s set aside the dispute over what the relationship between crime and immigration is for now to consider an interesting new study by team of researchers led by Saint Louis University sociologist Michael Vaughn. That study aims to get beyond the “immigrant paradox” in which immigrants are more socially disadvantaged yet less likely to commit crime. They probe “the full depth of antisocial behavior” using data from the National Epidemiological Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC). Since there were two surveys, there is data on changes in antisocial behavior adjusting for the length of time immigrants had lived in the U.S.

Good old-fashioned “root causes” sociology would suggest that since immigrants are more likely to be male, poor, younger, less educated and live in cities, they should be more prone to antisocial behavior. Yet this study reports that they are considerably less antisocial than native-born Americans. This finding applies to immigrants from Africa, Asia, Europe and Latin America.

The NESARC asks participants to self-report on 31 antisocial behaviors including bullying, hurting animals, staying out late without permission, shoplifting, and starting fights.

“Across the board, the prevalence of antisocial behavior among native-born Americans was greater than that of immigrants,” find the researchers. According to the survey, immigrants were particularly less likely than native-borns to engage in behaviors that could hurt others, truancy, stay out late without permission, quit a job without options, shoplift, or do something for which they could get arrested. Native-borns were four times more likely to report violent behavior than Asian or African immigrants and three times more likely than Latin American immigrants. European immigrants were only about third less likely to engage in violence than native-borns.

Why might immigrants be more tractable? Fear of deportation would tend to make people behave, but it could also be that the sort of person who has the gumption to seek a better life in another country may already have the self-discipline to rein in antisocial behavior.

In any case, these findings prompt Vaughn and his colleagues to speculatively ask, “If increased immigration lowers the crime rate, then can immigration be thought of as a crime prevention strategy?”

Well, maybe, but the effect would only be temporary. Every year that an immigrant lives in the U.S. is associated with a 1.9 and 0.9 percent increase in nonviolent and violent crime respectively. Their data also show that the behaviors of the children of immigrants over time begins to resemble that of native-borns. In other words, assimilation means adopting the social (or antisocial) norms of native-born Americans.

An old joke goes: My family has been having problems with immigrants ever since we got to this country. Natives have always viewed newcomers with suspicion.

“The continued indictment for criminality of those just arrived is as old as the history of our country, and has been directed, during each period, with greatest vehemence against that national group whose migration here has been the most recent and the most marked,” observed a 1931 Michigan Law Review article. Citing the determinations of the congressional Dillingham Commission (1911) on immigration twenty years earlier, the article added, “All the evidence then available indicated a lesser criminality on the part of the immigrant group as a whole. Succeeding studies have supported this conclusion.”

They still do.

 
http://reason.com/archives/2014/07/15/foreign-kids-and-americas-huckleberry-fi

Here's a question for the proud Americans demanding that the unaccompanied foreign children showing up at our borders be deported: Suppose that one of these "illegal" minors was your neighbor, living with his aunt and uncle, going to school during the day, kicking ball with friends in the evening, trying hard to put the traumatic journey from his native, violence-ridden country to America behind him. Would you, with a clear conscience, pick up the phone and turn him in?

America is blessed with a rich and stable neighbor on the north and oceans on the east and west. Hence, it is naturally insulated from the nasty side effects of civil wars, famines and other catastrophes outside its borders that other countries routinely confront. But unless it relocates to another planet, it can't completely cut itself off from foreign upheavals, especially those it has a hand in causing.

Anti-immigration hardliners are blaming the surge of minors—90,000 alone this year, a five-fold increase from 2011 — on America's lenient deportation policies and the prospect of "amnesty." The reality is more complicated.

The surge comes almost exclusively from three of the most dangerous countries in the hemisphere—Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala. Why are they so dangerous? In part, because of America's illicit drug war

This trillion-dollar war puts the onus on Latin American countries to stop drugs from flowing into the US—rather than on the US to curb its own appetite. America has conditioned aid and market access on how hard these countries crackdown on drug dealers.

This hasn't dampened the drug trade one whit, but has driven it into the hands of dangerous drug cartels. Five years ago, half of Honduras was outside the government's control. In El Salvador, rival drug gangs shake down schools for recruits and money. Drug dealers even fund political campaigns in Guatemala to elect their candidates. Caught between the authorities and drug cartels are innocent civilians, especially the poor and powerless who are increasingly helpless in protecting their children.

That's why 66 percent of the kids from El Salvador and 44 percent from Honduras cite organized violence as their main reason for fleeing, according to a UN survey.

No doubt some kids are hoping to take advantage of a Bush-era law against human trafficking requiring that unaccompanied minors be given an asylum hearing and be placed in the "least restrictive setting"—such as their families—in the interim. (If their fathers are with them, they are almost certain to be turned away.)

However, because the burden of proving that they face a physical threat back home is so impossible, many of them simply melt away into the undocumented underclass rather than show up for their hearing.

A compassionate people would demand that these kids be given usable options for applying for asylum in their home countries so that they wouldn't have to undertake a dangerous journey with "coyotes"—human smugglers mixed up in the drug trade.

Instead, America is arguably experiencing its worst spasm of nativism since the early 20th Century. Then, magazines such as Judge ran cartoons depicting a Statue of Liberty with a Chinese face welcoming crime-prone and diseased immigrants. Now, protesters in towns like Murrieta, California, are turning away buses carrying these kids to shelters, accusing them of being scabies-infected law-breakers.

But such nativism will ultimately run into what University of California's John S.W. Park calls America's "Huckleberry Finn Problem." Slavery unraveled because, like Mark Twain's Huck Finn who helped Jim, a slave, escape, Americans couldn't bear to enforce anti-fugitive laws preventing blacks from fleeing to freedom. "Inflicting the law became hard," notes Park, "when there was so much evidence of common humanity." The heroes of that era are not folks like Supreme Court Justice Roger Taney, the author of the Dred Scott ruling who brilliantly argued to enforce slavery because it was the law of the land, but abolitionists like Harriet Beecher Stove who broke that law.

The same is happening now. There is no movement of private citizens turning in illegals because most Americans, even those who don't disagree with America's restrictive border policies, would feel "icky" doing so—just like Huck Finn couldn't bear to turn in Jim even though he accepted slavery as ordained by God. But sanctuary cities are cropping up in America offering safe haven, also what happened during slavery.

Laws requiring the government to do what private citizens can't bring themselves to do are wrong, especially in a country founded on the notion that a government's powers can't exceed those of its people.

Nativism, with its hectoring to enforce a cruel borderline, appeals neither to America's humanity nor its commitment to limited government – which is why it'll ultimately lose. The question is whether it'll claim these foreign kids as casualties in the meantime
We are talking about an obviously manipulated, unprecedented surge of people. You truly can't be so dim as to think that this crap wasn't planned by president moron, right? Somebody has given the green light to let anyone come through. What a coincidence it is all kids too, right?

Anyways, if it was my neighbor, no I would not turn the person in. But that is not what we are talking about now, we are talking about thousands of people banging at the gates. Totally different situation.

 
The above article is part of the proof that I have been arguing for quite some time, which is borne out by the evidence:

1. Illegal immigrants commit less crimes than do American citizens.

2. Illegal immigrants work harder than do American citizens.

3. Illegal immigrants receive less funds from the government than do American citizens.

4. Illegal immigrants on average, are less of a drain on our resources than American citizens.

These are the facts. Just about everything that most people suppose about illegals is wrong. They are being wrongfully scapegoated for our economic problems, which is unfortunate.

 
http://reason.com/archives/2014/07/15/foreign-kids-and-americas-huckleberry-fi

Here's a question for the proud Americans demanding that the unaccompanied foreign children showing up at our borders be deported: Suppose that one of these "illegal" minors was your neighbor, living with his aunt and uncle, going to school during the day, kicking ball with friends in the evening, trying hard to put the traumatic journey from his native, violence-ridden country to America behind him. Would you, with a clear conscience, pick up the phone and turn him in?

America is blessed with a rich and stable neighbor on the north and oceans on the east and west. Hence, it is naturally insulated from the nasty side effects of civil wars, famines and other catastrophes outside its borders that other countries routinely confront. But unless it relocates to another planet, it can't completely cut itself off from foreign upheavals, especially those it has a hand in causing.

Anti-immigration hardliners are blaming the surge of minors—90,000 alone this year, a five-fold increase from 2011 — on America's lenient deportation policies and the prospect of "amnesty." The reality is more complicated.

The surge comes almost exclusively from three of the most dangerous countries in the hemisphere—Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala. Why are they so dangerous? In part, because of America's illicit drug war

This trillion-dollar war puts the onus on Latin American countries to stop drugs from flowing into the US—rather than on the US to curb its own appetite. America has conditioned aid and market access on how hard these countries crackdown on drug dealers.

This hasn't dampened the drug trade one whit, but has driven it into the hands of dangerous drug cartels. Five years ago, half of Honduras was outside the government's control. In El Salvador, rival drug gangs shake down schools for recruits and money. Drug dealers even fund political campaigns in Guatemala to elect their candidates. Caught between the authorities and drug cartels are innocent civilians, especially the poor and powerless who are increasingly helpless in protecting their children.

That's why 66 percent of the kids from El Salvador and 44 percent from Honduras cite organized violence as their main reason for fleeing, according to a UN survey.

No doubt some kids are hoping to take advantage of a Bush-era law against human trafficking requiring that unaccompanied minors be given an asylum hearing and be placed in the "least restrictive setting"—such as their families—in the interim. (If their fathers are with them, they are almost certain to be turned away.)

However, because the burden of proving that they face a physical threat back home is so impossible, many of them simply melt away into the undocumented underclass rather than show up for their hearing.

A compassionate people would demand that these kids be given usable options for applying for asylum in their home countries so that they wouldn't have to undertake a dangerous journey with "coyotes"—human smugglers mixed up in the drug trade.

Instead, America is arguably experiencing its worst spasm of nativism since the early 20th Century. Then, magazines such as Judge ran cartoons depicting a Statue of Liberty with a Chinese face welcoming crime-prone and diseased immigrants. Now, protesters in towns like Murrieta, California, are turning away buses carrying these kids to shelters, accusing them of being scabies-infected law-breakers.

But such nativism will ultimately run into what University of California's John S.W. Park calls America's "Huckleberry Finn Problem." Slavery unraveled because, like Mark Twain's Huck Finn who helped Jim, a slave, escape, Americans couldn't bear to enforce anti-fugitive laws preventing blacks from fleeing to freedom. "Inflicting the law became hard," notes Park, "when there was so much evidence of common humanity." The heroes of that era are not folks like Supreme Court Justice Roger Taney, the author of the Dred Scott ruling who brilliantly argued to enforce slavery because it was the law of the land, but abolitionists like Harriet Beecher Stove who broke that law.

The same is happening now. There is no movement of private citizens turning in illegals because most Americans, even those who don't disagree with America's restrictive border policies, would feel "icky" doing so—just like Huck Finn couldn't bear to turn in Jim even though he accepted slavery as ordained by God. But sanctuary cities are cropping up in America offering safe haven, also what happened during slavery.

Laws requiring the government to do what private citizens can't bring themselves to do are wrong, especially in a country founded on the notion that a government's powers can't exceed those of its people.

Nativism, with its hectoring to enforce a cruel borderline, appeals neither to America's humanity nor its commitment to limited government – which is why it'll ultimately lose. The question is whether it'll claim these foreign kids as casualties in the meantime
We are talking about an obviously manipulated, unprecedented surge of people. You truly can't be so dim as to think that this crap wasn't planned by president moron, right? Somebody has given the green light to let anyone come through. What a coincidence it is all kids too, right?

Anyways, if it was my neighbor, no I would not turn the person in. But that is not what we are talking about now, we are talking about thousands of people banging at the gates. Totally different situation.
If you're referring to Obama, then no I don't think anything was planned by him.

 
So, I was at J.C Penny yesterday buying my daughter some sweats for basketball. There were some leftover bags on clearance from the World Cup, a bunch of U.S.As and some other countries were represented. We picked U.S.A (her choice). At the checkout, the saleslady (an old lady, white about 50ish) asked if there were any other bags left as she wanted to get one for her granddaughter. I said "yeah, lots of different countries, tons of Mexico left" . She looked at me with a look of disgust and made a comment about how there is no way her granddaughter would want a Mexican bag and then followed it with a comment denigrating "those illegals" who were "snaking there way in".

Guys...this is J.C Penny I am talking about with a 50 year old lady that I do not know. This is blowing up. People are pissed. You cannot just randomly let people into the country carte blanche. NO OTHER COUNTRY ALLOWS THIS KIND OF CRAP. Once again, president dipsh*t, tries to manipulate something that is way above his pay scale and it blows up in his face. I am all for a system that lets people go through a citizenship process to get in, I would even spend money to expand it, but this is nuts. Anyone who argues otherwise is a certified lunatic.

A good litmus test would be to see whether or not you agree with 500 of these kids getting dumped into your school district next year. It would severely stretch the resources of your district, would most certainly cause your taxes to rise, and would have a negative effect on any of your own kids attending that district. Who here would actually agree to that? If you are cool with this, that is what you are agreeing to...and the schools are just the tip of the iceberg.
So what's your solution?

IMHO, the root of the problem is people breeding who cannot afford to even properly care for themselves (not from Mexico, I'm talking worldwide...American citizens most-definitely included). But since people are too stupid/selfish/in denial to proactively address the real problem, what type of reactive solution do you think will work best?

If you were living on the South side of a river, and your family was living in poverty...maybe even starving, and you had the choice of staying put and making $1, or sneaking across the river illegally and quietly making ~$2, what might you choose? Of course, the better way to go would be to cross the river LEGALLY and put yourself in a position to make $4. But you don't have 4-5 years to keep your family from starving. Keep some of your kids from dying from treatable diseases. So again, if it were you, what would you choose? Stay South of the river and make your buck, and take your chances related to not watching your kids die from disease or slowly starve to death, or break some laws and take some chances to try and provide them with more of a fighting chance?
The solution is to seal the border. Build a triple fence with electrified wire across the entire border. Build a system where it is not worth their while to try to cross illegally.

In a perfect world it would be great to allow all suffering people into our country, but we are not set up for that. Let them apply the regular way. Like I said, once you seal the border we could expand the program and provide more opportunities and then give people who are here illegally opportunities for amnesty. But turning large swaths of our country into 3rd world Latin American replicas solves nothing. It makes own country weaker. Municipalities are already stretched to their breaking point with resources, so unless we fight this off, we are doomed to become just like them.

Another idea would be to put a 50% non negotiable surtax on anyone earning over $500,000 a year in any way, including capital gains. That would be the altruistic thing to do and it would force alot of these windbag limousine liberals to put their money where their mouth is. Would Zuckerberg, Buffet, or Gates give 50% to absorb these people? If they committed to that, I would be down with letting anyone in...shared sacrifice, right?

Something tells me they would balk at that though....probably because they are total phonies.
What about a DMZ with a carpet of land mines? Or drone strikes? Or machine guns set to automatically shoot at anything that moves in said DMZ?! ;)

Obviously a bit of sarcasm there. But again, you or your family are dying/starving anyway. You think a triple fence with electrified wire will keep people out?! How far below ground will the fence extend? How far out into the Gulf of Mexico or the Pacific Ocean? Again, imagine you or the people who mean the world to you are already basically dead anyway...so if you could buy a "lotto ticket" (slim chance of making it safely into the United States, and making WAY more money...while being provided with much better healthcare that everyone else will pay for) where if you lose, about the worst that happens to you is you get three-square and a cot for a while before being flown/driven back to the same ####-hole you started from, would you do it?!

I'm all for securing the borders too! But I think people who think that we can make our borders 100% secure are like those Mac users who think their computers are 100% safe from viruses and malware. ;)
Just like in 'Escape From Alcatraz' If they get past the triple stacked electrified fence, then they are set. I can tell you with certainty that we will not be having trainloads of people per day meandering in if we seal the border, so everything will be cool.

As far as your Mac analogy goes it is poor. I have been streaming non-stop porn and illegal movies over my ipad for the past few years and it hasn't made so much as a hiccup. That could never happen with a PC. I am not against things that are illegal in general, but this is different. This amount of people will fundamentally strain the resources of our communities in America and the people who will pay are not the richie rich soapboxers, but the middle and lower classes, so I am against letting all of these kids into our country unchecked. Sorry.

 
The above article is part of the proof that I have been arguing for quite some time, which is borne out by the evidence:

1. Illegal immigrants commit less crimes than do American citizens.

2. Illegal immigrants work harder than do American citizens.

3. Illegal immigrants receive less funds from the government than do American citizens.

4. Illegal immigrants on average, are less of a drain on our resources than American citizens.

These are the facts. Just about everything that most people suppose about illegals is wrong. They are being wrongfully scapegoated for our economic problems, which is unfortunate.
What you are talking about is the past tense version of illegal immigration, which was a trickle compare to this. Using that standard, your argument is sound.

When you extrapolate your theories by 1000 x more people in a short period of time, which is what is happening right now, you get mass chaos. This is madness. Its sort of like me saying it is totally o.k to drink a few beers, which it is. I might get a little tipsy, but I will be fine and might even be a little more insightful and funny. It would not be o.k. for me to drink 100 beers though...I would probably end up killing myself and few others around me.

 
http://reason.com/archives/2014/07/15/foreign-kids-and-americas-huckleberry-fi

Here's a question for the proud Americans demanding that the unaccompanied foreign children showing up at our borders be deported: Suppose that one of these "illegal" minors was your neighbor, living with his aunt and uncle, going to school during the day, kicking ball with friends in the evening, trying hard to put the traumatic journey from his native, violence-ridden country to America behind him. Would you, with a clear conscience, pick up the phone and turn him in?

America is blessed with a rich and stable neighbor on the north and oceans on the east and west. Hence, it is naturally insulated from the nasty side effects of civil wars, famines and other catastrophes outside its borders that other countries routinely confront. But unless it relocates to another planet, it can't completely cut itself off from foreign upheavals, especially those it has a hand in causing.

Anti-immigration hardliners are blaming the surge of minors—90,000 alone this year, a five-fold increase from 2011 — on America's lenient deportation policies and the prospect of "amnesty." The reality is more complicated.

The surge comes almost exclusively from three of the most dangerous countries in the hemisphere—Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala. Why are they so dangerous? In part, because of America's illicit drug war

This trillion-dollar war puts the onus on Latin American countries to stop drugs from flowing into the US—rather than on the US to curb its own appetite. America has conditioned aid and market access on how hard these countries crackdown on drug dealers.

This hasn't dampened the drug trade one whit, but has driven it into the hands of dangerous drug cartels. Five years ago, half of Honduras was outside the government's control. In El Salvador, rival drug gangs shake down schools for recruits and money. Drug dealers even fund political campaigns in Guatemala to elect their candidates. Caught between the authorities and drug cartels are innocent civilians, especially the poor and powerless who are increasingly helpless in protecting their children.

That's why 66 percent of the kids from El Salvador and 44 percent from Honduras cite organized violence as their main reason for fleeing, according to a UN survey.

No doubt some kids are hoping to take advantage of a Bush-era law against human trafficking requiring that unaccompanied minors be given an asylum hearing and be placed in the "least restrictive setting"—such as their families—in the interim. (If their fathers are with them, they are almost certain to be turned away.)

However, because the burden of proving that they face a physical threat back home is so impossible, many of them simply melt away into the undocumented underclass rather than show up for their hearing.

A compassionate people would demand that these kids be given usable options for applying for asylum in their home countries so that they wouldn't have to undertake a dangerous journey with "coyotes"—human smugglers mixed up in the drug trade.

Instead, America is arguably experiencing its worst spasm of nativism since the early 20th Century. Then, magazines such as Judge ran cartoons depicting a Statue of Liberty with a Chinese face welcoming crime-prone and diseased immigrants. Now, protesters in towns like Murrieta, California, are turning away buses carrying these kids to shelters, accusing them of being scabies-infected law-breakers.

But such nativism will ultimately run into what University of California's John S.W. Park calls America's "Huckleberry Finn Problem." Slavery unraveled because, like Mark Twain's Huck Finn who helped Jim, a slave, escape, Americans couldn't bear to enforce anti-fugitive laws preventing blacks from fleeing to freedom. "Inflicting the law became hard," notes Park, "when there was so much evidence of common humanity." The heroes of that era are not folks like Supreme Court Justice Roger Taney, the author of the Dred Scott ruling who brilliantly argued to enforce slavery because it was the law of the land, but abolitionists like Harriet Beecher Stove who broke that law.

The same is happening now. There is no movement of private citizens turning in illegals because most Americans, even those who don't disagree with America's restrictive border policies, would feel "icky" doing so—just like Huck Finn couldn't bear to turn in Jim even though he accepted slavery as ordained by God. But sanctuary cities are cropping up in America offering safe haven, also what happened during slavery.

Laws requiring the government to do what private citizens can't bring themselves to do are wrong, especially in a country founded on the notion that a government's powers can't exceed those of its people.

Nativism, with its hectoring to enforce a cruel borderline, appeals neither to America's humanity nor its commitment to limited government – which is why it'll ultimately lose. The question is whether it'll claim these foreign kids as casualties in the meantime
We are talking about an obviously manipulated, unprecedented surge of people. You truly can't be so dim as to think that this crap wasn't planned by president moron, right? Somebody has given the green light to let anyone come through. What a coincidence it is all kids too, right?

Anyways, if it was my neighbor, no I would not turn the person in. But that is not what we are talking about now, we are talking about thousands of people banging at the gates. Totally different situation.
If you're referring to Obama, then no I don't think anything was planned by him.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

 
timschochet said:
Basically, I would like this country for return to the "Ellis Island" days, when anyone who was not a public health risk could get in. So far as criminals and terrorists and the like, we're reaching a technological point at which we can scan each person coming in, and if the buzzer goes off, stop them.
Great, Tim's on board with open borders for everyone except when a team of government mind-readers determines the person is a bad guy.

 
Well, at least Tim is posting articles instead of arguing national policy should be set according to 19th century poetry

 
The above article is part of the proof that I have been arguing for quite some time, which is borne out by the evidence:

1. Illegal immigrants commit less crimes than do American citizens.

2. Illegal immigrants work harder than do American citizens.

3. Illegal immigrants receive less funds from the government than do American citizens.

4. Illegal immigrants on average, are less of a drain on our resources than American citizens.

These are the facts. Just about everything that most people suppose about illegals is wrong. They are being wrongfully scapegoated for our economic problems, which is unfortunate.
What you are talking about is the past tense version of illegal immigration, which was a trickle compare to this. Using that standard, your argument is sound.

When you extrapolate your theories by 1000 x more people in a short period of time, which is what is happening right now, you get mass chaos. This is madness. Its sort of like me saying it is totally o.k to drink a few beers, which it is. I might get a little tipsy, but I will be fine and might even be a little more insightful and funny. It would not be o.k. for me to drink 100 beers though...I would probably end up killing myself and few others around me.
Well at least you're willing to admit that the argument was sound in the past- I suppose that's an achievement of sorts.

But when you talk about what is creating this current turmoil, it's several thousand children. Perhaps 150,000 all told. That's not a small number, but in a nation of 300 million it's hardly the catastrophe that you paint it either.

 
Well, at least Tim is posting articles instead of arguing national policy should be set according to 19th century poetry
That poetry represents the American ideal. Like the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution, it's supposed to tell us who we are and who we want to be.

The United States, as a proposition, is different from the rest of the world. Immigration is one of the pillars of that difference. I consider myself to be a patriot and a firm believer in American exceptionalism. Whenever someone here, usually a liberal, wants to deride what this country is all about, I am quick to defend it- not necessarily on every specific issue, but in a broader sense. I think we have been, and could be, the greatest nation that ever existed. But only if we recognize and continue to participate in those elements that made us great.

 
i wonder how mexico would react to foreigners illegally surging into its country .

Among other ironies: Mexican-migrant activists in the United States hotly oppose a congressional bill that would make undocumented immigration in the U.S. a felony – but Mexican law already classifies it as such. The crime is punishable by up to two years in prison, although deportation is more common.

Considered felons by the Mexican government, they fear detention, rape and robbery. Police and soldiers hunt them down at railroads, bus stations and fleabag hotels. Sometimes they are deported; more often officers simply take all their money.

 
The above article is part of the proof that I have been arguing for quite some time, which is borne out by the evidence:

1. Illegal immigrants commit less crimes than do American citizens.

2. Illegal immigrants work harder than do American citizens.

3. Illegal immigrants receive less funds from the government than do American citizens.

4. Illegal immigrants on average, are less of a drain on our resources than American citizens.

These are the facts. Just about everything that most people suppose about illegals is wrong. They are being wrongfully scapegoated for our economic problems, which is unfortunate.
What you are talking about is the past tense version of illegal immigration, which was a trickle compare to this. Using that standard, your argument is sound.

When you extrapolate your theories by 1000 x more people in a short period of time, which is what is happening right now, you get mass chaos. This is madness. Its sort of like me saying it is totally o.k to drink a few beers, which it is. I might get a little tipsy, but I will be fine and might even be a little more insightful and funny. It would not be o.k. for me to drink 100 beers though...I would probably end up killing myself and few others around me.
Well at least you're willing to admit that the argument was sound in the past- I suppose that's an achievement of sorts.

But when you talk about what is creating this current turmoil, it's several thousand children. Perhaps 150,000 all told. That's not a small number, but in a nation of 300 million it's hardly the catastrophe that you paint it either.
I think you're crazy - 150,000 children abandoned at our doorstep? And we're not sending them back but just encouraging more?

This is like a goalie who is expected to allow 1 goal per game is instead suddenly allowing 15. It's a total catastrophe.

It's a catastrophe for them, for us, the towns and cities where these children are sent, our agents, everyone.

 
http://reason.com/archives/2014/07/15/foreign-kids-and-americas-huckleberry-fi

Here's a question for the proud Americans demanding that the unaccompanied foreign children showing up at our borders be deported: Suppose that one of these "illegal" minors was your neighbor, living with his aunt and uncle, going to school during the day, kicking ball with friends in the evening, trying hard to put the traumatic journey from his native, violence-ridden country to America behind him. Would you, with a clear conscience, pick up the phone and turn him in?

America is blessed with a rich and stable neighbor on the north and oceans on the east and west. Hence, it is naturally insulated from the nasty side effects of civil wars, famines and other catastrophes outside its borders that other countries routinely confront. But unless it relocates to another planet, it can't completely cut itself off from foreign upheavals, especially those it has a hand in causing.

Anti-immigration hardliners are blaming the surge of minors—90,000 alone this year, a five-fold increase from 2011 — on America's lenient deportation policies and the prospect of "amnesty." The reality is more complicated.

The surge comes almost exclusively from three of the most dangerous countries in the hemisphere—Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala. Why are they so dangerous? In part, because of America's illicit drug war

This trillion-dollar war puts the onus on Latin American countries to stop drugs from flowing into the US—rather than on the US to curb its own appetite. America has conditioned aid and market access on how hard these countries crackdown on drug dealers.

This hasn't dampened the drug trade one whit, but has driven it into the hands of dangerous drug cartels. Five years ago, half of Honduras was outside the government's control. In El Salvador, rival drug gangs shake down schools for recruits and money. Drug dealers even fund political campaigns in Guatemala to elect their candidates. Caught between the authorities and drug cartels are innocent civilians, especially the poor and powerless who are increasingly helpless in protecting their children.

That's why 66 percent of the kids from El Salvador and 44 percent from Honduras cite organized violence as their main reason for fleeing, according to a UN survey.

No doubt some kids are hoping to take advantage of a Bush-era law against human trafficking requiring that unaccompanied minors be given an asylum hearing and be placed in the "least restrictive setting"—such as their families—in the interim. (If their fathers are with them, they are almost certain to be turned away.)

However, because the burden of proving that they face a physical threat back home is so impossible, many of them simply melt away into the undocumented underclass rather than show up for their hearing.

A compassionate people would demand that these kids be given usable options for applying for asylum in their home countries so that they wouldn't have to undertake a dangerous journey with "coyotes"—human smugglers mixed up in the drug trade.

Instead, America is arguably experiencing its worst spasm of nativism since the early 20th Century. Then, magazines such as Judge ran cartoons depicting a Statue of Liberty with a Chinese face welcoming crime-prone and diseased immigrants. Now, protesters in towns like Murrieta, California, are turning away buses carrying these kids to shelters, accusing them of being scabies-infected law-breakers.

But such nativism will ultimately run into what University of California's John S.W. Park calls America's "Huckleberry Finn Problem." Slavery unraveled because, like Mark Twain's Huck Finn who helped Jim, a slave, escape, Americans couldn't bear to enforce anti-fugitive laws preventing blacks from fleeing to freedom. "Inflicting the law became hard," notes Park, "when there was so much evidence of common humanity." The heroes of that era are not folks like Supreme Court Justice Roger Taney, the author of the Dred Scott ruling who brilliantly argued to enforce slavery because it was the law of the land, but abolitionists like Harriet Beecher Stove who broke that law.

The same is happening now. There is no movement of private citizens turning in illegals because most Americans, even those who don't disagree with America's restrictive border policies, would feel "icky" doing so—just like Huck Finn couldn't bear to turn in Jim even though he accepted slavery as ordained by God. But sanctuary cities are cropping up in America offering safe haven, also what happened during slavery.

Laws requiring the government to do what private citizens can't bring themselves to do are wrong, especially in a country founded on the notion that a government's powers can't exceed those of its people.

Nativism, with its hectoring to enforce a cruel borderline, appeals neither to America's humanity nor its commitment to limited government – which is why it'll ultimately lose. The question is whether it'll claim these foreign kids as casualties in the meantime
We are talking about an obviously manipulated, unprecedented surge of people. You truly can't be so dim as to think that this crap wasn't planned by president moron, right? Somebody has given the green light to let anyone come through. What a coincidence it is all kids too, right?

Anyways, if it was my neighbor, no I would not turn the person in. But that is not what we are talking about now, we are talking about thousands of people banging at the gates. Totally different situation.
If you're referring to Obama, then no I don't think anything was planned by him.
That's just it - Obama doesn't plan anything. I think there's this constant contradiction among his critics about whether he is this ideological svengali trying to drag down America with destructive policies or a complete incompetent. He can't be both, but I vote the latter. He doesn't really seem to do any real president-ing beyond the occasional executive order that his political team draws up for him and beats drums about afterward. the guy is into fundraising and demagoguery, and when he's done he's going to be rich, that's about it.

 
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The above article is part of the proof that I have been arguing for quite some time, which is borne out by the evidence:

1. Illegal immigrants commit less crimes than do American citizens.

2. Illegal immigrants work harder than do American citizens.

3. Illegal immigrants receive less funds from the government than do American citizens.

4. Illegal immigrants on average, are less of a drain on our resources than American citizens.

These are the facts. Just about everything that most people suppose about illegals is wrong. They are being wrongfully scapegoated for our economic problems, which is unfortunate.
The above article does not speak to your assertions #'s 2 through 4. As for the fact of #1 I would note that the article, and especially the conclusion you would like to draw from this poorly considered social science analysis is not established. The article presumes that crime trends would remain static absent the one variable of immigration. The article presumes also that crime is reflected by incarceration rates and self- reporting rates which are presumed to be accurate.

To begin incarceration rates in this country have long been demographic specific to men aged 18 to 35. This cohort is consistently highly represented in incarceration statistics. One would expect, then, that as that baby boom cohort aged that incarceration statistics would decrease, which did of course happen. This cohort being much larger than the immigrant cohort the article is flawed if it does not consider this elephant in the room, which of course this advocacy, not analytical piece did. Further, immigrants are an interesting cohort when looking at incarceration rates in American jails. Illegal immigrants routinely avoid court by fleeing back over borders or by failing to appear in court, choosing instead to fade into the shadow world of the illegal and assuming new identities. The metric of incarceration is not a reflection of crime rates. Finally, until there is a conclusive study on willingness to self report antisocial behavior one cannot presume that persons raised in different cultures, and who know their status is in question, will self report at similar rates to native born persons.

In short your proof of facts is nothing of the sort. That you offer it with no critical eye to its substance and over tout its import shows that you do not care to critically think about the issue, but rather are casting about for support to your already established position.

 
Obama and the Democratic Party got close to 75% of the Hispanic votes in 2012. Of course they are tip toeing around this issue. They're trying to balance keeping the Hispanic support and avoiding a major public backlash. It isn't working.

At least he gave a speech yesterday about the Ukraine border instead of ours. Do they even care what people are concerned with?

 
http://reason.com/archives/2014/07/15/foreign-kids-and-americas-huckleberry-fi

Here's a question for the proud Americans demanding that the unaccompanied foreign children showing up at our borders be deported: Suppose that one of these "illegal" minors was your neighbor, living with his aunt and uncle, going to school during the day, kicking ball with friends in the evening, trying hard to put the traumatic journey from his native, violence-ridden country to America behind him. Would you, with a clear conscience, pick up the phone and turn him in?

America is blessed with a rich and stable neighbor on the north and oceans on the east and west. Hence, it is naturally insulated from the nasty side effects of civil wars, famines and other catastrophes outside its borders that other countries routinely confront. But unless it relocates to another planet, it can't completely cut itself off from foreign upheavals, especially those it has a hand in causing.

Anti-immigration hardliners are blaming the surge of minors—90,000 alone this year, a five-fold increase from 2011 — on America's lenient deportation policies and the prospect of "amnesty." The reality is more complicated.

The surge comes almost exclusively from three of the most dangerous countries in the hemisphere—Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala. Why are they so dangerous? In part, because of America's illicit drug war

This trillion-dollar war puts the onus on Latin American countries to stop drugs from flowing into the US—rather than on the US to curb its own appetite. America has conditioned aid and market access on how hard these countries crackdown on drug dealers.

This hasn't dampened the drug trade one whit, but has driven it into the hands of dangerous drug cartels. Five years ago, half of Honduras was outside the government's control. In El Salvador, rival drug gangs shake down schools for recruits and money. Drug dealers even fund political campaigns in Guatemala to elect their candidates. Caught between the authorities and drug cartels are innocent civilians, especially the poor and powerless who are increasingly helpless in protecting their children.

That's why 66 percent of the kids from El Salvador and 44 percent from Honduras cite organized violence as their main reason for fleeing, according to a UN survey.

No doubt some kids are hoping to take advantage of a Bush-era law against human trafficking requiring that unaccompanied minors be given an asylum hearing and be placed in the "least restrictive setting"—such as their families—in the interim. (If their fathers are with them, they are almost certain to be turned away.)

However, because the burden of proving that they face a physical threat back home is so impossible, many of them simply melt away into the undocumented underclass rather than show up for their hearing.

A compassionate people would demand that these kids be given usable options for applying for asylum in their home countries so that they wouldn't have to undertake a dangerous journey with "coyotes"—human smugglers mixed up in the drug trade.

Instead, America is arguably experiencing its worst spasm of nativism since the early 20th Century. Then, magazines such as Judge ran cartoons depicting a Statue of Liberty with a Chinese face welcoming crime-prone and diseased immigrants. Now, protesters in towns like Murrieta, California, are turning away buses carrying these kids to shelters, accusing them of being scabies-infected law-breakers.

But such nativism will ultimately run into what University of California's John S.W. Park calls America's "Huckleberry Finn Problem." Slavery unraveled because, like Mark Twain's Huck Finn who helped Jim, a slave, escape, Americans couldn't bear to enforce anti-fugitive laws preventing blacks from fleeing to freedom. "Inflicting the law became hard," notes Park, "when there was so much evidence of common humanity." The heroes of that era are not folks like Supreme Court Justice Roger Taney, the author of the Dred Scott ruling who brilliantly argued to enforce slavery because it was the law of the land, but abolitionists like Harriet Beecher Stove who broke that law.

The same is happening now. There is no movement of private citizens turning in illegals because most Americans, even those who don't disagree with America's restrictive border policies, would feel "icky" doing so—just like Huck Finn couldn't bear to turn in Jim even though he accepted slavery as ordained by God. But sanctuary cities are cropping up in America offering safe haven, also what happened during slavery.

Laws requiring the government to do what private citizens can't bring themselves to do are wrong, especially in a country founded on the notion that a government's powers can't exceed those of its people.

Nativism, with its hectoring to enforce a cruel borderline, appeals neither to America's humanity nor its commitment to limited government – which is why it'll ultimately lose. The question is whether it'll claim these foreign kids as casualties in the meantime
We are talking about an obviously manipulated, unprecedented surge of people. You truly can't be so dim as to think that this crap wasn't planned by president moron, right? Somebody has given the green light to let anyone come through. What a coincidence it is all kids too, right?

Anyways, if it was my neighbor, no I would not turn the person in. But that is not what we are talking about now, we are talking about thousands of people banging at the gates. Totally different situation.
You need to be more specific than "presiden moron" these days. To be fair, GWB signed into law (around 2006-07) a bill saying refugees from countries not bordering us couldn't be immediately deported. Between that policy and this admin's policy it's pretty simple to see the effects of "politics" on this country in real terms.

 
Obama and the Democratic Party got close to 75% of the Hispanic votes in 2012. Of course they are tip toeing around this issue. They're trying to balance keeping the Hispanic support and avoiding a major public backlash. It isn't working.

At least he gave a speech yesterday about the Ukraine border instead of ours. Do they even care what people are concerned with?
Politicians care?

No...they care who will give them power and votes and money. Same as it ever was.

Both sides don't give a flying crap.

 
The answer to your last question is yes, Strike. We would have to secure the borders.

As a matter of fact, I've come around in my thinking on this point. We need to secure the borders better no matter what else happens. I would be in a favor of a fence or some other means, so long as it doesn't interfere with trade (and doesn't cost too much.)
So let's secure the borders and then we can talk about where we need to go from there regarding immigration. It seems to me this should be a no brainer. If we secure the borders the GOP won't be able to use that as an excuse not to pass "comprehensive" immigration reform anymore.
I actually have less of a problem with this than I used to. My only concern is that if that is done first, the political will for the second part won't be there.

How about this as a compromise: we agree on securing the border and a Path to CItizenship right now, but the "Path" won't begin until after the border is secured. If the politicians won't spend the money to secure the border, then the "Path" never begins.
Hasn't the GOP been arguing for exactly this plan for decades?

 
The answer to your last question is yes, Strike. We would have to secure the borders.

As a matter of fact, I've come around in my thinking on this point. We need to secure the borders better no matter what else happens. I would be in a favor of a fence or some other means, so long as it doesn't interfere with trade (and doesn't cost too much.)
So let's secure the borders and then we can talk about where we need to go from there regarding immigration. It seems to me this should be a no brainer. If we secure the borders the GOP won't be able to use that as an excuse not to pass "comprehensive" immigration reform anymore.
I actually have less of a problem with this than I used to. My only concern is that if that is done first, the political will for the second part won't be there.

How about this as a compromise: we agree on securing the border and a Path to CItizenship right now, but the "Path" won't begin until after the border is secured. If the politicians won't spend the money to secure the border, then the "Path" never begins.
No compromise. Reagan made that deal in 1986. We were going to go after employers to remove the incentive for illegals to come here for work. Just give them amnesty and we promise to go after the employers. And it didn't happen. So I'm sorry if you're concerned about the 2nd part not happening. The anti illegal immigration side already got f-ed once. This one ain't going down that road again until the border is secure.

Seriously Tim, whether the border is secure or not the Latino vote is a huge bloc. Both sides will still be courting it. Just because more aren't coming doesn't matter. So your point is really irrelevant and if you insist on pursuing it I'll have to assume you aren't serious about securing the border in the first place.
Not surprised by your response. What I'm hoping is that eventually the public will lean more to the "Path to Citizenship" side. Polls in recent years have indicated that there is movement in that direction so we'll see.
And, by the way, a path to citizenship exists right now.

http://www.us-immigration.com/us-citizenship-and-naturalization-application.jsp?lang=en

 
Well, at least Tim is posting articles instead of arguing national policy should be set according to 19th century poetry
That poetry represents the American ideal. Like the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution, it's supposed to tell us who we are and who we want to be.The United States, as a proposition, is different from the rest of the world. Immigration is one of the pillars of that difference. I consider myself to be a patriot and a firm believer in American exceptionalism. Whenever someone here, usually a liberal, wants to deride what this country is all about, I am quick to defend it- not necessarily on every specific issue, but in a broader sense. I think we have been, and could be, the greatest nation that ever existed. But only if we recognize and continue to participate in those elements that made us great.
During the recent NCAA court case, the NCAA lawyers asked to show the "One Shinning Moment" video to the court. The judge declined stating it's not applicable as evidence of their case.

The poetry may represent an ideal you believe is applicable, but it's not evidence. It's a commercial.

 
So, I was at J.C Penny yesterday buying my daughter some sweats for basketball. There were some leftover bags on clearance from the World Cup, a bunch of U.S.As and some other countries were represented. We picked U.S.A (her choice). At the checkout, the saleslady (an old lady, white about 50ish) asked if there were any other bags left as she wanted to get one for her granddaughter. I said "yeah, lots of different countries, tons of Mexico left" . She looked at me with a look of disgust and made a comment about how there is no way her granddaughter would want a Mexican bag and then followed it with a comment denigrating "those illegals" who were "snaking there way in".

Guys...this is J.C Penny I am talking about with a 50 year old lady that I do not know. This is blowing up. People are pissed.
The kids aren't from Mexico. People are ignorant.

 
The answer to your last question is yes, Strike. We would have to secure the borders.

As a matter of fact, I've come around in my thinking on this point. We need to secure the borders better no matter what else happens. I would be in a favor of a fence or some other means, so long as it doesn't interfere with trade (and doesn't cost too much.)
So let's secure the borders and then we can talk about where we need to go from there regarding immigration. It seems to me this should be a no brainer. If we secure the borders the GOP won't be able to use that as an excuse not to pass "comprehensive" immigration reform anymore.
I actually have less of a problem with this than I used to. My only concern is that if that is done first, the political will for the second part won't be there.How about this as a compromise: we agree on securing the border and a Path to CItizenship right now, but the "Path" won't begin until after the border is secured. If the politicians won't spend the money to secure the border, then the "Path" never begins.
Hasn't the GOP been arguing for exactly this plan for decades?
Not specifically. They have been pushing for securing the border first; then they'll talk about the rest. I'm suggesting tying the two together in one bill, except that the second part wouldn't start until after the first part.
 
Well, at least Tim is posting articles instead of arguing national policy should be set according to 19th century poetry
That poetry represents the American ideal. Like the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution, it's supposed to tell us who we are and who we want to be.The United States, as a proposition, is different from the rest of the world. Immigration is one of the pillars of that difference. I consider myself to be a patriot and a firm believer in American exceptionalism. Whenever someone here, usually a liberal, wants to deride what this country is all about, I am quick to defend it- not necessarily on every specific issue, but in a broader sense. I think we have been, and could be, the greatest nation that ever existed. But only if we recognize and continue to participate in those elements that made us great.
During the recent NCAA court case, the NCAA lawyers asked to show the "One Shinning Moment" video to the court. The judge declined stating it's not applicable as evidence of their case.The poetry may represent an ideal you believe is applicable, but it's not evidence. It's a commercial.
I never attempted to present that poetry as evidence. And in any event, this argument is not like a court case. Ideals are important and should be considered.
 
The above article is part of the proof that I have been arguing for quite some time, which is borne out by the evidence:

1. Illegal immigrants commit less crimes than do American citizens.

2. Illegal immigrants work harder than do American citizens.

3. Illegal immigrants receive less funds from the government than do American citizens.

4. Illegal immigrants on average, are less of a drain on our resources than American citizens.

These are the facts. Just about everything that most people suppose about illegals is wrong. They are being wrongfully scapegoated for our economic problems, which is unfortunate.
The above article does not speak to your assertions #'s 2 through 4. As for the fact of #1 I would note that the article, and especially the conclusion you would like to draw from this poorly considered social science analysis is not established. The article presumes that crime trends would remain static absent the one variable of immigration. The article presumes also that crime is reflected by incarceration rates and self- reporting rates which are presumed to be accurate. To begin incarceration rates in this country have long been demographic specific to men aged 18 to 35. This cohort is consistently highly represented in incarceration statistics. One would expect, then, that as that baby boom cohort aged that incarceration statistics would decrease, which did of course happen. This cohort being much larger than the immigrant cohort the article is flawed if it does not consider this elephant in the room, which of course this advocacy, not analytical piece did. Further, immigrants are an interesting cohort when looking at incarceration rates in American jails. Illegal immigrants routinely avoid court by fleeing back over borders or by failing to appear in court, choosing instead to fade into the shadow world of the illegal and assuming new identities. The metric of incarceration is not a reflection of crime rates. Finally, until there is a conclusive study on willingness to self report antisocial behavior one cannot presume that persons raised in different cultures, and who know their status is in question, will self report at similar rates to native born persons.

In short your proof of facts is nothing of the sort. That you offer it with no critical eye to its substance and over tout its import shows that you do not care to critically think about the issue, but rather are casting about for support to your already established position.
I wrote that the article presented part of the proof, and it does. I have in the past presented other evidence which backs up the other points I made. Your last paragraph was an unnecessary attack, and it's also ironic given that your only refutation of the article seems to be your contention that illegals will fail to show up for court hearings, which I'm not sure is even relevant to the statistical evidence. But you did manage to confuse me by using the word "cohort" several times, and I have no idea what it means in your context.

Look, it's doesn't take rocket science to figure out that illegals are going to be less involved in violent crimes on average- its just common sense. They work longer hours and are fearful of the police. Of course the statistics are going to back that up.

 
Well, at least Tim is posting articles instead of arguing national policy should be set according to 19th century poetry
That poetry represents the American ideal. Like the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution, it's supposed to tell us who we are and who we want to be.The United States, as a proposition, is different from the rest of the world. Immigration is one of the pillars of that difference. I consider myself to be a patriot and a firm believer in American exceptionalism. Whenever someone here, usually a liberal, wants to deride what this country is all about, I am quick to defend it- not necessarily on every specific issue, but in a broader sense. I think we have been, and could be, the greatest nation that ever existed. But only if we recognize and continue to participate in those elements that made us great.
During the recent NCAA court case, the NCAA lawyers asked to show the "One Shinning Moment" video to the court. The judge declined stating it's not applicable as evidence of their case.The poetry may represent an ideal you believe is applicable, but it's not evidence. It's a commercial.
I never attempted to present that poetry as evidence. And in any event, this argument is not like a court case. Ideals are important and should be considered.
Idealism without pragmatism has no way of succeeding.

 
Well, at least Tim is posting articles instead of arguing national policy should be set according to 19th century poetry
That poetry represents the American ideal. Like the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution, it's supposed to tell us who we are and who we want to be.The United States, as a proposition, is different from the rest of the world. Immigration is one of the pillars of that difference. I consider myself to be a patriot and a firm believer in American exceptionalism. Whenever someone here, usually a liberal, wants to deride what this country is all about, I am quick to defend it- not necessarily on every specific issue, but in a broader sense. I think we have been, and could be, the greatest nation that ever existed. But only if we recognize and continue to participate in those elements that made us great.
During the recent NCAA court case, the NCAA lawyers asked to show the "One Shinning Moment" video to the court. The judge declined stating it's not applicable as evidence of their case.The poetry may represent an ideal you believe is applicable, but it's not evidence. It's a commercial.
I never attempted to present that poetry as evidence. And in any event, this argument is not like a court case. Ideals are important and should be considered.
Idealism without pragmatism has no way of succeeding.
I agree. I have attempted to make both an idealistic argument and a pragmatic argument in this thread. The first is useless without the second.
 
Well, at least Tim is posting articles instead of arguing national policy should be set according to 19th century poetry
That poetry represents the American ideal. Like the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution, it's supposed to tell us who we are and who we want to be.The United States, as a proposition, is different from the rest of the world. Immigration is one of the pillars of that difference. I consider myself to be a patriot and a firm believer in American exceptionalism. Whenever someone here, usually a liberal, wants to deride what this country is all about, I am quick to defend it- not necessarily on every specific issue, but in a broader sense. I think we have been, and could be, the greatest nation that ever existed. But only if we recognize and continue to participate in those elements that made us great.
During the recent NCAA court case, the NCAA lawyers asked to show the "One Shinning Moment" video to the court. The judge declined stating it's not applicable as evidence of their case.The poetry may represent an ideal you believe is applicable, but it's not evidence. It's a commercial.
I never attempted to present that poetry as evidence. And in any event, this argument is not like a court case. Ideals are important and should be considered.
Idealism without pragmatism has no way of succeeding.
I agree. I have attempted to make both an idealistic argument and a pragmatic argument in this thread. The first is useless without the second.
Your pragmatism is very republican.

 
The answer to your last question is yes, Strike. We would have to secure the borders.

As a matter of fact, I've come around in my thinking on this point. We need to secure the borders better no matter what else happens. I would be in a favor of a fence or some other means, so long as it doesn't interfere with trade (and doesn't cost too much.)
So let's secure the borders and then we can talk about where we need to go from there regarding immigration. It seems to me this should be a no brainer. If we secure the borders the GOP won't be able to use that as an excuse not to pass "comprehensive" immigration reform anymore.
I actually have less of a problem with this than I used to. My only concern is that if that is done first, the political will for the second part won't be there.How about this as a compromise: we agree on securing the border and a Path to CItizenship right now, but the "Path" won't begin until after the border is secured. If the politicians won't spend the money to secure the border, then the "Path" never begins.
No compromise. Reagan made that deal in 1986. We were going to go after employers to remove the incentive for illegals to come here for work. Just give them amnesty and we promise to go after the employers. And it didn't happen. So I'm sorry if you're concerned about the 2nd part not happening. The anti illegal immigration side already got f-ed once. This one ain't going down that road again until the border is secure.

Seriously Tim, whether the border is secure or not the Latino vote is a huge bloc. Both sides will still be courting it. Just because more aren't coming doesn't matter. So your point is really irrelevant and if you insist on pursuing it I'll have to assume you aren't serious about securing the border in the first place.
Not surprised by your response. What I'm hoping is that eventually the public will lean more to the "Path to Citizenship" side. Polls in recent years have indicated that there is movement in that direction so we'll see.
And, by the way, a path to citizenship exists right now.

http://www.us-immigration.com/us-citizenship-and-naturalization-application.jsp?lang=en
Why are you playing games here? The term "Path to Citizenship", in this context, refers to legal recognition for illegal immigrants already in this country and a means for them to achieve citizenship. You know this.
 
Well, at least Tim is posting articles instead of arguing national policy should be set according to 19th century poetry
That poetry represents the American ideal. Like the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution, it's supposed to tell us who we are and who we want to be.The United States, as a proposition, is different from the rest of the world. Immigration is one of the pillars of that difference. I consider myself to be a patriot and a firm believer in American exceptionalism. Whenever someone here, usually a liberal, wants to deride what this country is all about, I am quick to defend it- not necessarily on every specific issue, but in a broader sense. I think we have been, and could be, the greatest nation that ever existed. But only if we recognize and continue to participate in those elements that made us great.
During the recent NCAA court case, the NCAA lawyers asked to show the "One Shinning Moment" video to the court. The judge declined stating it's not applicable as evidence of their case.The poetry may represent an ideal you believe is applicable, but it's not evidence. It's a commercial.
I never attempted to present that poetry as evidence. And in any event, this argument is not like a court case. Ideals are important and should be considered.
Idealism without pragmatism has no way of succeeding.
I agree. I have attempted to make both an idealistic argument and a pragmatic argument in this thread. The first is useless without the second.
Your pragmatism is very republican.
If I understand you correctly, I'll take that as a compliment.
 
The above article is part of the proof that I have been arguing for quite some time, which is borne out by the evidence:

1. Illegal immigrants commit less crimes than do American citizens.

2. Illegal immigrants work harder than do American citizens.

3. Illegal immigrants receive less funds from the government than do American citizens.

4. Illegal immigrants on average, are less of a drain on our resources than American citizens.

These are the facts. Just about everything that most people suppose about illegals is wrong. They are being wrongfully scapegoated for our economic problems, which is unfortunate.
I could poke holes in your post just above, re: crime statistics, all day long, but for now I'll ask what proof you posted regarding your assertions 2, 3, and 4 above?

You repeatedly make such assertions as "facts", but I have yet to see you post any actual proof.

 
The federal government is so overwhelmed by the current tide of migrants crossing the border it can't provide basic medical screening to all of the children before transporting them - often by air - to longer-term holding facilities across the country, ABC News has learned.

The director of refugee health in the federal Health and Human Services Department "has identified a breakdown of the medical screening processes at the Nogales, Arizona, facility," according to an internal Department of Defense memo reviewed by ABC News. The "breakdown" a systemic failure of the handoff of these children between CBP and HHS.

Here's What Obama Would See If He Visited the Border

Pulitzer Prize-Winning Journalist Detained by US Border Patrol

Bipartisan Duo to Introduce Border Bill

Inside the government, officials are sounding alarms, fearing that they and their teams who come in contact with the sick children face potential exposure to infectious diseases from chicken pox to influenza, including rare cases of H1N1, more commonly called swine flu.

Two unaccompanied children were flown from Nogales to California despite having 101-degree fevers and flu-like symptoms, according to the Department of Defense memo. Those children had to be hospitalized.

The memo said pointedly that officials in charge of moving the immigrants from Border Patrol processing centers to Health and Human Services facilities are "putting sick [fevers and coughing] unaccompanied children on airplanes inbound for [Naval Base Ventura County] in addition to the chicken pox and coxsackie virus cases."

The document said three other kids were in the ICU at local hospitals in California, and two of them were diagnosed with strep pneumonia.

Less than a week later, that same Ventura Naval Base suffered an outbreak of pneumonia and influenza among the unaccompanied minors inside the shelter.

"Preliminary reports indicate that several unaccompanied minors in the shelter had become ill with what appears to be pneumonia and influenza," according to a statement from the Administration for Children and Families at Health and Human Services.

HHS told ABC News the children were supposed to be screened for sickness before leaving the Border Patrol screening centers.

"When the children arrive at U.S. border stations," the ACF statement read, "they are screened for health problems and given medical treatment if needed."

But, according to the memo ABC News reviewed, "Curi Kim [the HHS director of the Division of Refugee Health] has identified a breakdown of the medical screening processes at the Nogales, Arizona, facility. The [unaccompanied children] were initially screened and cleared upon entry into that facility with no fever or significant symptoms. They were not however re-screened and cleared for travel and placement at a temporary shelter."

While confirming to ABC News the outbreak occurred, HHS would not respond to inquiries about the DOD memo showing sick children were knowingly sent to Naval Base Ventura prior to the outbreak.

"My biggest concerns are with the health of these children," said Richard Besser, ABC News' chief health and medical editor. "They are victims going through incredibly stressful circumstances and some will have health issues that need to be treated. Some come from countries that don't vaccinate against pneumonia or meningitis. They need those vaccines. Some come from countries where it is flu season. They need that vaccine, too. The big health risks are among these children, not to our communities."

Once kids are in HHS custody they receive exams and vaccinations, and are screened for tuberculosis, according to ACF, but more serious illnesses such as meningitis and polio are of little concern for causing an outbreak.

"Children from this region of the world participate in comprehensive childhood vaccination programs, similar to the United States, and are generally well protected from most vaccine-preventable diseases," ACF said in a statement.

Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras each have rates of vaccination against preventable illnesses such as polio, tuberculosis, measles and pertussis consistent with the United States, according to the World Health Organization.

Latest data on vaccination rates per country, according to Pan American Health Organization

DTP3 (Diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis) Measles MMR1 OPV3 (Polio) BCG (tuberculosis) Guatemala 94 93 94 100 (2010) El Salvador 92 93 92 90 (2012) Honduras* 88 93 88 89 (2012) United States 94 91 93 n/a (2012)

* In 2010 and 2011, Honduras had rates of 100 percent vaccination for all vaccines listed.

During congressional testimony the first week of July, Texas Gov. Rick Perry said: "We've already had one confirmed case of H1N1 in Texas, and have been informed by our federal partners of two additional cases of type A influenza that are likely to be H1N1, in addition to reports of other illnesses at other detention facilities."

The Texas Department of Health confirmed to ABC News that there have been three flu cases, one confirmed H1N1 and two others being flu type A, or presumptive H1N1.

According to the CDC, between April 12, 2009 and April 10, 2010, the height of swine flu in the U.S., approximately 60.8 million cases occurred, with 12,469 deaths.

The CDC website stated: The H1N1 virus that caused that pandemic is now a regular human flu virus and continues to circulate seasonally worldwide.
terrible situation
 
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With regard to the article HT just posted and the concerns it raises, President Obama has just asked Congress to grant 3.9 billion to deal with these immediate problems. Congress has refused the request.

 
Why are you playing games here? The term "Path to Citizenship", in this context, refers to legal recognition for illegal immigrants already in this country and a means for them to achieve citizenship. You know this.
Over you over again, you say there needs to be a path to citizenship. Yet, when provided with irrefutable proof that such a path exists, you accuse others of playing games. What you really mean is that you don't like the existing path to citizenship, and you want it changed. That's the definition of playing word games, when you ask for one thing but mean another.

 
The above article is part of the proof that I have been arguing for quite some time, which is borne out by the evidence:

1. Illegal immigrants commit less crimes than do American citizens.

2. Illegal immigrants work harder than do American citizens.

3. Illegal immigrants receive less funds from the government than do American citizens.

4. Illegal immigrants on average, are less of a drain on our resources than American citizens.

These are the facts. Just about everything that most people suppose about illegals is wrong. They are being wrongfully scapegoated for our economic problems, which is unfortunate.
I could poke holes in your post just above, re: crime statistics, all day long, but for now I'll ask what proof you posted regarding your assertions 2, 3, and 4 above?

You repeatedly make such assertions as "facts", but I have yet to see you post any actual proof.
I have provided evidence in the past. If I have time I will do so again. But I doubt it will matter with you. Almost all of my evidence is based on studies conducted by Reason Magazine, the Cato Institute, and the University of Arizona, all of them sympathetic to my POV. I'm sure you'll dismiss them all anyway, just as you are eager to dismiss the article on crime.

 
The wall will do the job for the most part; it will significantly reduce this problem to a more manageable level. Who could ask for more? There has to be a wall.

 
Why are you playing games here? The term "Path to Citizenship", in this context, refers to legal recognition for illegal immigrants already in this country and a means for them to achieve citizenship. You know this.
Over you over again, you say there needs to be a path to citizenship. Yet, when provided with irrefutable proof that such a path exists, you accuse others of playing games. What you really mean is that you don't like the existing path to citizenship, and you want it changed. That's the definition of playing word games, when you ask for one thing but mean another.
Except that I didn't create the modern meaning of the term. It's been in usage for years now. These days when you hear anyone speak of a path to citizenship, you can assume they're talking about illegals.
 
With regard to the article HT just posted and the concerns it raises, President Obama has just asked Congress to grant 3.9 billion to deal with these immediate problems, in a manner of his choosing. Congress has refused the request, because it disagrees with the manner in which Obama would deal with the problems.
Italics added to fix your post.

 
The above article is part of the proof that I have been arguing for quite some time, which is borne out by the evidence:

1. Illegal immigrants commit less crimes than do American citizens.

2. Illegal immigrants work harder than do American citizens.

3. Illegal immigrants receive less funds from the government than do American citizens.

4. Illegal immigrants on average, are less of a drain on our resources than American citizens.

These are the facts. Just about everything that most people suppose about illegals is wrong. They are being wrongfully scapegoated for our economic problems, which is unfortunate.
What you are talking about is the past tense version of illegal immigration, which was a trickle compare to this. Using that standard, your argument is sound.

When you extrapolate your theories by 1000 x more people in a short period of time, which is what is happening right now, you get mass chaos. This is madness. Its sort of like me saying it is totally o.k to drink a few beers, which it is. I might get a little tipsy, but I will be fine and might even be a little more insightful and funny. It would not be o.k. for me to drink 100 beers though...I would probably end up killing myself and few others around me.
Well at least you're willing to admit that the argument was sound in the past- I suppose that's an achievement of sorts.

But when you talk about what is creating this current turmoil, it's several thousand children. Perhaps 150,000 all told. That's not a small number, but in a nation of 300 million it's hardly the catastrophe that you paint it either.
I think you're crazy - 150,000 children abandoned at our doorstep? And we're not sending them back but just encouraging more?

This is like a goalie who is expected to allow 1 goal per game is instead suddenly allowing 15. It's a total catastrophe.

It's a catastrophe for them, for us, the towns and cities where these children are sent, our agents, everyone.
Why do you hate compassionate conservative George W Bush and the GOP Congress who put the law in place that requires we hold these children for a long time while they go through a long procedural process before some are sent back?

 
The above article is part of the proof that I have been arguing for quite some time, which is borne out by the evidence:

1. Illegal immigrants commit less crimes than do American citizens.

2. Illegal immigrants work harder than do American citizens.

3. Illegal immigrants receive less funds from the government than do American citizens.

4. Illegal immigrants on average, are less of a drain on our resources than American citizens.

These are the facts. Just about everything that most people suppose about illegals is wrong. They are being wrongfully scapegoated for our economic problems, which is unfortunate.
I could poke holes in your post just above, re: crime statistics, all day long, but for now I'll ask what proof you posted regarding your assertions 2, 3, and 4 above?

You repeatedly make such assertions as "facts", but I have yet to see you post any actual proof.
I have provided evidence in the past. If I have time I will do so again.But I doubt it will matter with you. Almost all of my evidence is based on studies conducted by Reason Magazine, the Cato Institute, and the University of Arizona, all of them sympathetic to my POV. I'm sure you'll dismiss them all anyway, just as you are eager to dismiss the article on crime.
I've seen you provide links twice. Both times, the actual studies you linked had zero proof of what you claimed. Once, the study actually showed the exact opposite of what you claimed.

 
With regard to the article HT just posted and the concerns it raises, President Obama has just asked Congress to grant 3.9 billion to deal with these immediate problems, in a manner of his choosing. Congress has refused the request, because it disagrees with the manner in which Obama would deal with the problems.
Italics added to fix your post.
I haven't heard his specific plans or their specific objections; only that he needed the money to deal with the public health concerns that HT referenced. What are the Republicans objecting to?
 

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