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Terrance West vs Isaiah Crowell (1 Viewer)

Who is the Browns RB to own

  • Terrance West

    Votes: 208 48.9%

  • Isaiah Crowell

    Votes: 217 51.1%
  • Total voters
    425
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
They likely knew from talks with other teams that he would not be drafted. They also likely knew from talks with him that he would be interested in joining the Browns, either by draft or free agency. There's a lot more at play here than "this guy was more talented so that's why they took him" or "this guy is a big risk and not that talented so that's why he wasn't drafted". Bryce Brown was mentioned earlier, and I think that fits perfectly for a comparison--not from a skill perspective but from a situation perspective.

As for Crowell, I've seen several of his interviews, and he seemed to know from talking with teams there was a good chance he would not be selected. He seemed genuinely remorseful to me, and at peace with the fact that he may have to earn his way onto a roster and work his way up. He even mentioned Foster in one of his interviews as a path that seemed he would need to take. He even talked about the likelihood of needing to play special teams if that's what it took. I think his head his screwed on straight now for what it's worth. Now it will come down to talent, which most think he has plenty, and opportunity, which most believe there will be. I think at his current price (3.09) in my recent rookie only draft, he is well worth it. Certainly less of a risk there than West at 1.08, when there are starting caliber WR, TE, and QB on the board...
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation, but even if we assume it's true that still begs the question as to why he was going to so obviously be undrafted whereas other guys with off the field problems still commanded 2nd round value. And let's not kid ourselves here, they could somewhat assume that any of their 6th/7th rounders could easily end up undrafted and available later but still chose to take them over locking up Crowell. Why would they do that if they believed that Crowell was a 1st round talent with a 50% chance of flaming out? I think the answer is that he was both not viewed as a 1st round talent and also has a much higher chance of flaming out.

Those other guys that I mentioned with off the field issues were bumped down from being the top prospect at their position to being the 3rd-5th best prospect at their position. Why was Crowell allegedly bumped down from being the top prospect at his position to the 23rd best prospect at his position? My guess is that it's a combination of him not actually being the top prospect at his position without the off the field issues and his off the field issues being monumentally worse than that of those other guys mentioned. He looked great as a freshman at Georgia but that was more than 3 years ago. Plenty of guys have looked like a future top prospect as a freshman and never ended up living up to it.

As to the last part of your post, about the interviews, talk is cheap. He said similar things after his suspension at the end of the 2011 season, just a few months prior to him racking up two new felonies and getting kicked off the team.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
They likely knew from talks with other teams that he would not be drafted. They also likely knew from talks with him that he would be interested in joining the Browns, either by draft or free agency. There's a lot more at play here than "this guy was more talented so that's why they took him" or "this guy is a big risk and not that talented so that's why he wasn't drafted". Bryce Brown was mentioned earlier, and I think that fits perfectly for a comparison--not from a skill perspective but from a situation perspective.

As for Crowell, I've seen several of his interviews, and he seemed to know from talking with teams there was a good chance he would not be selected. He seemed genuinely remorseful to me, and at peace with the fact that he may have to earn his way onto a roster and work his way up. He even mentioned Foster in one of his interviews as a path that seemed he would need to take. He even talked about the likelihood of needing to play special teams if that's what it took. I think his head his screwed on straight now for what it's worth. Now it will come down to talent, which most think he has plenty, and opportunity, which most believe there will be. I think at his current price (3.09) in my recent rookie only draft, he is well worth it. Certainly less of a risk there than West at 1.08, when there are starting caliber WR, TE, and QB on the board...
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation, but even if we assume it's true that still begs the question as to why he was going to so obviously be undrafted whereas other guys with off the field problems still commanded 2nd round value. And let's not kid ourselves here, they could somewhat assume that any of their 6th/7th rounders could easily end up undrafted and available later but still chose to take them over locking up Crowell. Why would they do that if they believed that Crowell was a 1st round talent with a 50% chance of flaming out? I think the answer is that he was both not viewed as a 1st round talent and also has a much higher chance of flaming out.

Those other guys that I mentioned with off the field issues were bumped down from being the top prospect at their position to being the 3rd-5th best prospect at their position. Why was Crowell allegedly bumped down from being the top prospect at his position to the 23rd best prospect at his position? My guess is that it's a combination of him not actually being the top prospect at his position without the off the field issues and his off the field issues being monumentally worse than that of those other guys mentioned. He looked great as a freshman at Georgia but that was more than 3 years ago. Plenty of guys have looked like a future top prospect as a freshman and never ended up living up to it.

As to the last part of your post, about the interviews, talk is cheap. He said similar things after his suspension at the end of the 2011 season, just a few months prior to him racking up two new felonies and getting kicked off the team.
Click to expand...
Just because you don't agree with my speculation, doesn't mean I'm wrong and you're right. You're "reasons" for his fall are also mere speculation. Please don't shoot down my theories and the offer your own opinion as fact. Thanks.

 
There are different kinds of speculation.

I don't think most teams are in the habit of informing other teams who they are going to take or not. Not trying to "shoot down" your theory, but that doesn't seem very likely. Weigh out the pros and cons of doing this and ask yourself if you would?

As to what he may have said pre-draft about being amenable to the undrafted free agent route with CLE, that doesn't bear on the issue of why 31 other teams also passed on him for seven rounds (in some cases, 12 times) if he really was the transcendent talent some believe he is.

 
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ROYALWITCHEESE said:
FreeBaGeL said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
They likely knew from talks with other teams that he would not be drafted. They also likely knew from talks with him that he would be interested in joining the Browns, either by draft or free agency. There's a lot more at play here than "this guy was more talented so that's why they took him" or "this guy is a big risk and not that talented so that's why he wasn't drafted". Bryce Brown was mentioned earlier, and I think that fits perfectly for a comparison--not from a skill perspective but from a situation perspective.

As for Crowell, I've seen several of his interviews, and he seemed to know from talking with teams there was a good chance he would not be selected. He seemed genuinely remorseful to me, and at peace with the fact that he may have to earn his way onto a roster and work his way up. He even mentioned Foster in one of his interviews as a path that seemed he would need to take. He even talked about the likelihood of needing to play special teams if that's what it took. I think his head his screwed on straight now for what it's worth. Now it will come down to talent, which most think he has plenty, and opportunity, which most believe there will be. I think at his current price (3.09) in my recent rookie only draft, he is well worth it. Certainly less of a risk there than West at 1.08, when there are starting caliber WR, TE, and QB on the board...
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation, but even if we assume it's true that still begs the question as to why he was going to so obviously be undrafted whereas other guys with off the field problems still commanded 2nd round value. And let's not kid ourselves here, they could somewhat assume that any of their 6th/7th rounders could easily end up undrafted and available later but still chose to take them over locking up Crowell. Why would they do that if they believed that Crowell was a 1st round talent with a 50% chance of flaming out? I think the answer is that he was both not viewed as a 1st round talent and also has a much higher chance of flaming out.

Those other guys that I mentioned with off the field issues were bumped down from being the top prospect at their position to being the 3rd-5th best prospect at their position. Why was Crowell allegedly bumped down from being the top prospect at his position to the 23rd best prospect at his position? My guess is that it's a combination of him not actually being the top prospect at his position without the off the field issues and his off the field issues being monumentally worse than that of those other guys mentioned. He looked great as a freshman at Georgia but that was more than 3 years ago. Plenty of guys have looked like a future top prospect as a freshman and never ended up living up to it.

As to the last part of your post, about the interviews, talk is cheap. He said similar things after his suspension at the end of the 2011 season, just a few months prior to him racking up two new felonies and getting kicked off the team.
Click to expand...
Just because you don't agree with my speculation, doesn't mean I'm wrong and you're right. You're "reasons" for his fall are also mere speculation. Please don't shoot down my theories and the offer your own opinion as fact. Thanks.
Click to expand...
:lmao:

Since when is saying "my guess is..." trying to present my opinion as fact?

Seriously, what a weird post.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
FreeBaGeL said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
They likely knew from talks with other teams that he would not be drafted. They also likely knew from talks with him that he would be interested in joining the Browns, either by draft or free agency. There's a lot more at play here than "this guy was more talented so that's why they took him" or "this guy is a big risk and not that talented so that's why he wasn't drafted". Bryce Brown was mentioned earlier, and I think that fits perfectly for a comparison--not from a skill perspective but from a situation perspective.

As for Crowell, I've seen several of his interviews, and he seemed to know from talking with teams there was a good chance he would not be selected. He seemed genuinely remorseful to me, and at peace with the fact that he may have to earn his way onto a roster and work his way up. He even mentioned Foster in one of his interviews as a path that seemed he would need to take. He even talked about the likelihood of needing to play special teams if that's what it took. I think his head his screwed on straight now for what it's worth. Now it will come down to talent, which most think he has plenty, and opportunity, which most believe there will be. I think at his current price (3.09) in my recent rookie only draft, he is well worth it. Certainly less of a risk there than West at 1.08, when there are starting caliber WR, TE, and QB on the board...
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation, but even if we assume it's true that still begs the question as to why he was going to so obviously be undrafted whereas other guys with off the field problems still commanded 2nd round value. And let's not kid ourselves here, they could somewhat assume that any of their 6th/7th rounders could easily end up undrafted and available later but still chose to take them over locking up Crowell. Why would they do that if they believed that Crowell was a 1st round talent with a 50% chance of flaming out? I think the answer is that he was both not viewed as a 1st round talent and also has a much higher chance of flaming out.

Those other guys that I mentioned with off the field issues were bumped down from being the top prospect at their position to being the 3rd-5th best prospect at their position. Why was Crowell allegedly bumped down from being the top prospect at his position to the 23rd best prospect at his position? My guess is that it's a combination of him not actually being the top prospect at his position without the off the field issues and his off the field issues being monumentally worse than that of those other guys mentioned. He looked great as a freshman at Georgia but that was more than 3 years ago. Plenty of guys have looked like a future top prospect as a freshman and never ended up living up to it.

As to the last part of your post, about the interviews, talk is cheap. He said similar things after his suspension at the end of the 2011 season, just a few months prior to him racking up two new felonies and getting kicked off the team.
Click to expand...
Just because you don't agree with my speculation, doesn't mean I'm wrong and you're right. You're "reasons" for his fall are also mere speculation. Please don't shoot down my theories and the offer your own opinion as fact. Thanks.
Click to expand...
:lmao:

Since when is saying "my guess is..." trying to present my opinion as fact?

Seriously, what a weird post.
Click to expand...
" I think the answer is that he was both not viewed as a 1st round talent and also has a much higher chance of flaming out"Nice try though. He still is saying one theory is not valid, while one is. They are both theories and that is all they are. We know as much about why they passed as we do about rocket surgery.

What we do know is that they signed him, so they must like something about him. Why would a franchise going through the Gordon fiasco sign another player with character issues if he's not worth the effort?

 
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ROYALWITCHEESE said:
FreeBaGeL said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
FreeBaGeL said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
They likely knew from talks with other teams that he would not be drafted. They also likely knew from talks with him that he would be interested in joining the Browns, either by draft or free agency. There's a lot more at play here than "this guy was more talented so that's why they took him" or "this guy is a big risk and not that talented so that's why he wasn't drafted". Bryce Brown was mentioned earlier, and I think that fits perfectly for a comparison--not from a skill perspective but from a situation perspective.

As for Crowell, I've seen several of his interviews, and he seemed to know from talking with teams there was a good chance he would not be selected. He seemed genuinely remorseful to me, and at peace with the fact that he may have to earn his way onto a roster and work his way up. He even mentioned Foster in one of his interviews as a path that seemed he would need to take. He even talked about the likelihood of needing to play special teams if that's what it took. I think his head his screwed on straight now for what it's worth. Now it will come down to talent, which most think he has plenty, and opportunity, which most believe there will be. I think at his current price (3.09) in my recent rookie only draft, he is well worth it. Certainly less of a risk there than West at 1.08, when there are starting caliber WR, TE, and QB on the board...
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation, but even if we assume it's true that still begs the question as to why he was going to so obviously be undrafted whereas other guys with off the field problems still commanded 2nd round value. And let's not kid ourselves here, they could somewhat assume that any of their 6th/7th rounders could easily end up undrafted and available later but still chose to take them over locking up Crowell. Why would they do that if they believed that Crowell was a 1st round talent with a 50% chance of flaming out? I think the answer is that he was both not viewed as a 1st round talent and also has a much higher chance of flaming out.

Those other guys that I mentioned with off the field issues were bumped down from being the top prospect at their position to being the 3rd-5th best prospect at their position. Why was Crowell allegedly bumped down from being the top prospect at his position to the 23rd best prospect at his position? My guess is that it's a combination of him not actually being the top prospect at his position without the off the field issues and his off the field issues being monumentally worse than that of those other guys mentioned. He looked great as a freshman at Georgia but that was more than 3 years ago. Plenty of guys have looked like a future top prospect as a freshman and never ended up living up to it.

As to the last part of your post, about the interviews, talk is cheap. He said similar things after his suspension at the end of the 2011 season, just a few months prior to him racking up two new felonies and getting kicked off the team.
Click to expand...
Just because you don't agree with my speculation, doesn't mean I'm wrong and you're right. You're "reasons" for his fall are also mere speculation. Please don't shoot down my theories and the offer your own opinion as fact. Thanks.
Click to expand...
:lmao:

Since when is saying "my guess is..." trying to present my opinion as fact?

Seriously, what a weird post.
Click to expand...
" I think the answer is that he was both not viewed as a 1st round talent and also has a much higher chance of flaming out"Nice try though. He still is saying one theory is not valid, while one is. They are both theories and that is all they are. We know as much about why they passed as we do about rocket surgery.

What we do know is that they signed him, so they must like something about him. Why would a franchise going through the Gordon fiasco sign another player with character issues if he's not worth the effort?
Click to expand...
Did you read the first two words of that quote?

In what crazy world is saying things like "I think" and "my guess is" trying to pass off what I'm saying as fact and what you're saying as obviously wrong?

Seriously, this is the most bizarre exchange I think I've ever had on these forums. Feel free to take any of these other bizarre claims towards me to PM as this kind of childish and indignant reaction to a simple discussion isn't helping anyone with the topic at hand.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
FreeBaGeL said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
FreeBaGeL said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
They likely knew from talks with other teams that he would not be drafted. They also likely knew from talks with him that he would be interested in joining the Browns, either by draft or free agency. There's a lot more at play here than "this guy was more talented so that's why they took him" or "this guy is a big risk and not that talented so that's why he wasn't drafted". Bryce Brown was mentioned earlier, and I think that fits perfectly for a comparison--not from a skill perspective but from a situation perspective.

As for Crowell, I've seen several of his interviews, and he seemed to know from talking with teams there was a good chance he would not be selected. He seemed genuinely remorseful to me, and at peace with the fact that he may have to earn his way onto a roster and work his way up. He even mentioned Foster in one of his interviews as a path that seemed he would need to take. He even talked about the likelihood of needing to play special teams if that's what it took. I think his head his screwed on straight now for what it's worth. Now it will come down to talent, which most think he has plenty, and opportunity, which most believe there will be. I think at his current price (3.09) in my recent rookie only draft, he is well worth it. Certainly less of a risk there than West at 1.08, when there are starting caliber WR, TE, and QB on the board...
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation, but even if we assume it's true that still begs the question as to why he was going to so obviously be undrafted whereas other guys with off the field problems still commanded 2nd round value. And let's not kid ourselves here, they could somewhat assume that any of their 6th/7th rounders could easily end up undrafted and available later but still chose to take them over locking up Crowell. Why would they do that if they believed that Crowell was a 1st round talent with a 50% chance of flaming out? I think the answer is that he was both not viewed as a 1st round talent and also has a much higher chance of flaming out.

Those other guys that I mentioned with off the field issues were bumped down from being the top prospect at their position to being the 3rd-5th best prospect at their position. Why was Crowell allegedly bumped down from being the top prospect at his position to the 23rd best prospect at his position? My guess is that it's a combination of him not actually being the top prospect at his position without the off the field issues and his off the field issues being monumentally worse than that of those other guys mentioned. He looked great as a freshman at Georgia but that was more than 3 years ago. Plenty of guys have looked like a future top prospect as a freshman and never ended up living up to it.

As to the last part of your post, about the interviews, talk is cheap. He said similar things after his suspension at the end of the 2011 season, just a few months prior to him racking up two new felonies and getting kicked off the team.
Click to expand...
Just because you don't agree with my speculation, doesn't mean I'm wrong and you're right. You're "reasons" for his fall are also mere speculation. Please don't shoot down my theories and the offer your own opinion as fact. Thanks.
Click to expand...
:lmao:

Since when is saying "my guess is..." trying to present my opinion as fact?

Seriously, what a weird post.
Click to expand...
" I think the answer is that he was both not viewed as a 1st round talent and also has a much higher chance of flaming out"Nice try though. He still is saying one theory is not valid, while one is. They are both theories and that is all they are. We know as much about why they passed as we do about rocket surgery.

What we do know is that they signed him, so they must like something about him. Why would a franchise going through the Gordon fiasco sign another player with character issues if he's not worth the effort?
Click to expand...
Did you read the first two words of that quote?

In what crazy world is saying things like "I think" and "my guess is" trying to pass off what I'm saying as fact and what you're saying as obviously wrong?

Seriously, this is the most bizarre exchange I think I've ever had on these forums. Feel free to take any of these other bizarre claims towards me to PM as this kind of childish and indignant reaction to a simple discussion isn't helping anyone with the topic at hand.
Click to expand...
I agree. This appears to be one of those rare occasions where there are two opposing viewpoints, as well as a breakdown in semantics and communication.My points were (some were ignored, so I'll restate):

- Bryce Brown is an apt comparison, since he was obviously more talented than many of those drafted (in hind sight), but still wasn't chosen. Many in here touted him as such, but were ridiculed. Similar to now.

- We don't know who is more talented based only on draft position. They both played small school ball and had good numbers. Crowell, however, has the difference of playing well against D1 comp.

- Based on value and cost, Crowell appears to be the better gamble. All rookie picks are a crapshoot. It makes more sense to me to select the guy going 2 rounds later given this fact. You could get a better (IMO) prospect than West at 1.08-1.12 (where West is going).

- If off the field issues are a major factor in his fall, why sign him at all when you are already suffering from the Gordon mess? If you like West that much, you have Baker, Og, and Lewis already. No need to bring on a head case that has no talent. They obviously like him to a certain degree and are buying what he is selling about his past.

 
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Where are you seeing West at 1.08-1.12? Everything I see on ADP shows around 2.06-2.08. Then Crowell right after to late 3rd.

 
Bronco Billy said:
Since it's quite possible I did misread, I'd like to reiterate my position. I'm not stating with surety than Crowell will fail. I'm questioning those who are just completely dismissing the long odds against him when he was thought of so little (or more accurately as such an enormously high risk) by every NFL team. The overwhelming predominance of the teams were not even interested as an UDFA.

Could he make it big? Yes. But the deck is stacked decidedly against it.

I'd be willing to make the argument that even with perfect character that he wouldn't have gone until Rd 3 at the very earliest. There's an awful lot of credit being given to his freshman year, but when with his alleged superior ability he should have torn up a lesser league and didn't, plus the stories that he was just disinterested, that his workload was low because he was always complaining of injuries, his poor pass blocking and lack of effort therein - I'm seeing an entitled bad character who doesn't get it and whose talent doesn't supercede his attitude an character issues.
Click to expand...
Crowell didn't "tear up" a lesser league? He had a slightly higher YPC last season than West. There's not enough credit being given to a younger Crowell.

People are still overlooking the fact that Crowell is 2 years younger than West. Compare West's age 20 season to Crowell's and it's pretty close. Crowell is a true Junior, West is technically a redshirt Junior, but he's the same age as many 5th-year Seniors.

Also, West's team played 4 more total games than Crowell's last season.

 
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Andrew74 said:
Where are you seeing West at 1.08-1.12? Everything I see on ADP shows around 2.06-2.08. Then Crowell right after to late 3rd.
Click to expand...
1.11, 1.12 in two of my leagues. Then 1.08 in a league that began drafting yesterday. PPR, 0.5PPR, and PPR.

With all the positive buzz so far, he is only going to climb...

 
Xue said:
Bronco Billy said:
Since it's quite possible I did misread, I'd like to reiterate my position. I'm not stating with surety than Crowell will fail. I'm questioning those who are just completely dismissing the long odds against him when he was thought of so little (or more accurately as such an enormously high risk) by every NFL team. The overwhelming predominance of the teams were not even interested as an UDFA.

Could he make it big? Yes. But the deck is stacked decidedly against it.

I'd be willing to make the argument that even with perfect character that he wouldn't have gone until Rd 3 at the very earliest. There's an awful lot of credit being given to his freshman year, but when with his alleged superior ability he should have torn up a lesser league and didn't, plus the stories that he was just disinterested, that his workload was low because he was always complaining of injuries, his poor pass blocking and lack of effort therein - I'm seeing an entitled bad character who doesn't get it and whose talent doesn't supercede his attitude an character issues.
Click to expand...
Crowell didn't "tear up" a lesser league? He had a slightly higher YPC last season than West. There's not enough credit being given to a younger Crowell.

People are still overlooking the fact that Crowell is 2 years younger than West. Compare West's age 20 season to Crowell's and it's pretty close. Crowell is a true Junior, West is technically a redshirt Junior, but he's the same age as many 5th-year Seniors.

Also, West's team played 4 more total games than Crowell's last season.
Click to expand...
I wasn't making the comparison between the FCS careers of West and Crowell, just observing that Crowell underperformed if his talent level is what some allege. But if you want to go there, and you did, you might want to mention that West's level of competition playing in the CAA was substantially different than Crowell playing in the SWAC. The CAA was the top rated FCS football conference while the SWAC was the lowest. 8 schools in the CAA were ranked by computers to be better than the best school in the SWAC. And despite that Crowell failed to put up eye popping numbers.

As to the difference in age - if you can quantify how to compare the levels of physical maturity between young men then I think you've got some kind of point there. But I know with absolute certainty that young men mature physically differently, and as such I don't know how their differences in ages are going to affect their future performance in the NFL. But I'm all ears if you can quantify it in the case of these two guys.

 
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Evan Silva and Dane Brugler want-in on the fantasy potential of the Cleveland backfield.

Thet choose rookie 3rd round RB Terrance West.

-------

Dane Brugler@dpbrugler · Jun 1

Agree 100% RT @evansilva: Gonna want a piece of that #Browns backfield in fantasy this year. I'll take my chances with Terrance West.
 
Three different running backs, three different talking points from them.

Veteran free agent RB Ben Tate says he's the best RB on the team.

Rookie 3rd round RB Terrance West says he wants the starting RB position.

Undrafted FA RB Isaih Crowell says he chose Cleveland because he felt it was his best shot to make a team.

Not as strong of a message as the other two backs.

He came in with a knock he not tough and so-far he hasn't been able to practice due to a hamstring injury.

The good news for his supporters is that his hammy is heeled now so going forward he's got a shot to show his stuff.

http://www.news-herald.com/sports/20140610/cleveland-browns-notes-isaiah-crowell-trying-to-make-team-as-running-back?source=topstoriesrot

... From a purely talent standpoint, Crowell may just be the best runner in the 2014 draft. Questions about his toughness and dependability, however, make him very much a gamble that some teams simply won’t be willing to take.”

Crowell, 5-foot-11, 225 pounds, was kicked off the Georgia football team. He transferred to Alabama State. He rushed for 842 and 15 touchdowns in 2012 and 1,121 yards and 15 touchdowns last season.

“I just feel I need to come in, work hard, stay humble and just work to learn the offense and keep my nose clean,” Crowell said after minicamp practice on June 10. “I felt like I was (one of the best backs in the draft). I really didn’t look too much into it when I seen I wasn’t drafted. I just said I had to work harder than everybody else and show I’m a good person on and off the field.”

Crowell’s competition with the Browns is coming from veteran Ben Tate and rookie Terrance West. West took some snaps with the first team as minicamp opened.

Crowell said several teams wanted to sign him after the draft, but he chose the Browns on the advice of his agent.

“I had a lot of suitors, but my agent told me he felt like I could get in here and make the team,” Crowell said. “Not that I couldn’t make it anywhere else, but it probably wouldn’t be that tough to make it here, I guess. I don’t know.”

Crowell missed the early part of organized team activities with a hamstring injury. He said he feels fine, now.
Click to expand...
 
Dion Lewis is being completely forgotten about and that is a mistake. If healthy, I wouldn't be surprised if all four make it, one of them probably needs to be a ST guy though.

 
MAC_32 said:
Dion Lewis is being completely forgotten about and that is a mistake. If healthy, I wouldn't be surprised if all four make it, one of them probably needs to be a ST guy though.
Click to expand...
I was eager to see what Dion Lewis could do last season. If Lewis is fully recovered, he offers valuable skills as a receiver and COP back, and I expect him to make the roster.

 
I tend to think if Dion Lewis were a player at the RB position they wouldn't have grabbed a top veteran free agent, spent a 3rd rounder, and grabbed a skilled undrafted guy. They obviously didn't like what they already had.

 
valhallan said:
I tend to think if Dion Lewis were a player at the RB position they wouldn't have grabbed a top veteran free agent, spent a 3rd rounder, and grabbed a skilled undrafted guy. They obviously didn't like what they already had.
Click to expand...
So you think they should have gone into camp with only Lewis and Baker on the depth chart at RB?

 
valhallan said:
I tend to think if Dion Lewis were a player at the RB position they wouldn't have grabbed a top veteran free agent, spent a 3rd rounder, and grabbed a skilled undrafted guy. They obviously didn't like what they already had.
Click to expand...
Lewis is a completely different type of back than Tate and West. Tate was signed as a bridge, West was drafted to hopefully replace him. Lewis is competing with Crowell. Neither has been on the field much, so picking and choosing depends on what your opinion of each was a month or two ago. If the Browns get what they want Lewis is to Crowell what Tate is to West, a bridge. If Crowell doesn't pan out they have something interesting to work with in Lewis. If Lewis can't get/stay healthy then hopefully their interesting UDFA pans out. If neither do, hello September 1st waiver wire dumpster diving.

Reality, at least one of these 4 plays them out of the competition via injury anyway.

 
jurb26 said:
valhallan said:
I tend to think if Dion Lewis were a player at the RB position they wouldn't have grabbed a top veteran free agent, spent a 3rd rounder, and grabbed a skilled undrafted guy. They obviously didn't like what they already had.
Click to expand...
So you think they should have gone into camp with only Lewis and Baker on the depth chart at RB?
Click to expand...
Of course not. They went after potential starters rather than depth guys. Had they like their current RBs, a low flight free agent and maybe a 6th rounder would have sufficed.
 
valhallan said:
jurb26 said:
valhallan said:
I tend to think if Dion Lewis were a player at the RB position they wouldn't have grabbed a top veteran free agent, spent a 3rd rounder, and grabbed a skilled undrafted guy. They obviously didn't like what they already had.
Click to expand...
So you think they should have gone into camp with only Lewis and Baker on the depth chart at RB?
Click to expand...
Of course not. They went after potential starters rather than depth guys. Had they like their current RBs, a low flight free agent and maybe a 6th rounder would have sufficed.
Click to expand...
I don't see it as a big problem. They got the top FA RB but paid little for him. Tate has injury issues in his past so hitching everything to him and Lewis seems foolish. They then paid a late 3rd round price and an UDFA price for the other guys. I'm not seeing it as a huge investment. I think Lewis could be fighting Crowell for a roster spot, though.
 
Isaiah Crowell is a 21-year old rookie who was kicked off his first college team, has an arrest record, and ended up 7th round/Undrafted.

Who else had the same exact "profile"?

 
matuski said:
Xue said:
Isaiah Crowell is a 21-year old rookie who was kicked off his first college team, has an arrest record, and ended up 7th round/Undrafted.

Who else had the same exact "profile"?
Click to expand...
Blount?
Click to expand...
Blount was 24 as a rookie and was suspended but never dismissed by Oregon. He also doesn't have an arrest record.

Correct answer is Ahmad Bradshaw. He was signed and already participating in practices as a Freshman at Virginia, but was dismissed before the season started after getting arrested for underage drinking and resisting arrest. He also stole a Playstation as a Junior at Marshall.

 
cstu said:
Undrafted FA RB Isaih Crowell says he chose Cleveland because he felt it was his best shot to make a team.
Click to expand...
Has he seen the RB's for the Raiders?
Click to expand...
I think he meant best shot at playing time. He pretty much said he feels he would make any team. Playing time going against established pros like MJD and DMC would be harder to come by than against an unproven Tate and spare parts.
 
Nero said:
cstu said:
Undrafted FA RB Isaih Crowell says he chose Cleveland because he felt it was his best shot to make a team.
Click to expand...
Has he seen the RB's for the Raiders?
Click to expand...
I think he meant best shot at playing time. He pretty much said he feels he would make any team. Playing time going against established pros like MJD and DMC would be harder to come by than against an unproven Tate and spare parts.
Click to expand...
Should of signed w tenn then

 
KellysHeroes said:
Nero said:
cstu said:
Undrafted FA RB Isaih Crowell says he chose Cleveland because he felt it was his best shot to make a team.
Click to expand...
Has he seen the RB's for the Raiders?
Click to expand...
I think he meant best shot at playing time. He pretty much said he feels he would make any team. Playing time going against established pros like MJD and DMC would be harder to come by than against an unproven Tate and spare parts.
Click to expand...
Should of signed w tenn then
Click to expand...
Or Miami.

 
Or Jacksonville. They are all in on Gerhardt. Can't imagine that works out they way they think it will.

 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2atBW8AFnY

Watch that video, turn the volume down low due to the language.

I actually like both West and Crowell, but when guys dog Crowell over not playing through injuries, or just trying to make it through the Bama State schedule for two years, that hit will tell you why he was just wanting to stay healthy for the draft. Was one of his first games

 
jurb26 said:
domvin said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2atBW8AFnY

Watch that video, turn the volume down low due to the language.

I actually like both West and Crowell, but when guys dog Crowell over not playing through injuries, or just trying to make it through the Bama State schedule for two years, that hit will tell you why he was just wanting to stay healthy for the draft. Was one of his first games
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I get you're point here.
Click to expand...
Leading up to the draft, scouts and GMs were questioning Crowell not giving full effort in practices and games. Even his own coach questioned his willingness to play through injuries.

 
zadok said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
- Bryce Brown is an apt comparison, since he was obviously more talented than many of those drafted (in hind sight), but still wasn't chosen. Many in here touted him as such, but were ridiculed. Similar to now.
Click to expand...
Brown was drafted in the 7th.
Click to expand...
And Alfred Morris was a sixth round pick.

Ahmad Brashaw was drafted in the 7th round.

Zach Stacy in the fifth round.

The only RB I can think of in the past decade who has been a star and went undrafted is Arian Foster.

So, basically, Crowell supporters have to hope that Crowell is the next Foster, which is possible, but for every Foster there are literally hundreds of UDFAs whom no one has ever heard of and doesn't know the name.

Foster had not played in the AA--he had played four years in the SEC. But he fell out of the draft because he regressed in his senior year, and his 40 time was SLOW as it turned out because of a hamstring pull. He really doesn't compare to Crowell unless you have decided that Crowell is going to be the next UDFA to make it big.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
zadok said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
- Bryce Brown is an apt comparison, since he was obviously more talented than many of those drafted (in hind sight), but still wasn't chosen. Many in here touted him as such, but were ridiculed. Similar to now.
Click to expand...
Brown was drafted in the 7th.
Click to expand...
Not much difference between being a 7th rounder and UDFA.

Brown is actually a good comparison because Crowell his very close in size and is also 21 years old as a Rookie.

 
az_prof said:
zadok said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
- Bryce Brown is an apt comparison, since he was obviously more talented than many of those drafted (in hind sight), but still wasn't chosen. Many in here touted him as such, but were ridiculed. Similar to now.
Click to expand...
Brown was drafted in the 7th.
Click to expand...
And Alfred Morris was a sixth round pick.

Ahmad Brashaw was drafted in the 7th round.

Zach Stacy in the fifth round.

The only RB I can think of in the past decade who has been a star and went undrafted is Arian Foster.

So, basically, Crowell supporters have to hope that Crowell is the next Foster, which is possible, but for every Foster there are literally hundreds of UDFAs whom no one has ever heard of and doesn't know the name.

Foster had not played in the AA--he had played four years in the SEC. But he fell out of the draft because he regressed in his senior year, and his 40 time was SLOW as it turned out because of a hamstring pull. He really doesn't compare to Crowell unless you have decided that Crowell is going to be the next UDFA to make it big.
Click to expand...
Zac Stacy is the only one I would consider a comp because none of those other guys were talked about as being the top back in their class.

 
Xue said:
Not much difference between being a 7th rounder and UDFA.
Click to expand...
Yeah, actually there is. Being an UDFA means that every team in the NFL didn't think you were worth even the risk of a 7th round pick. That's an impactful statement.It means you're subject to the NFL's version of a cattle call just to get a chance to step on a practice field. It means you take your reps with 4th and 5th stringers at times when coaches may be as worried about teaching 3rd stringers as they are spending time watching you. It means that even if you do have the ability to stick that it may never shine through because the guys you are lining up with in practice may not be able to open seams for you consistently enough or get you the ball in space in a position where you can run up some YAC. It means that slick little move may be missed because a coach sees it as the D player taking a bad angle or missing a tackle

It means when hard roster decisions have to be made that the cost of cutting you is worth no more than the value of a couple low end season tickets and doesn't cause the HC or GM a wink of sleep that night or anything to explain to the press the next day. It means if you're running neck and neck for a roster spot with a 6th rounder that you have to look better than he does, likely by more than a close margin - and look that way not to yourself or a few of the other guys, but in the coaches' minds. It means less opportunity playing with a majority of guys whose future is anywhere but the NFL.

.

 
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Xue said:
zadok said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
- Bryce Brown is an apt comparison, since he was obviously more talented than many of those drafted (in hind sight), but still wasn't chosen. Many in here touted him as such, but were ridiculed. Similar to now.
Click to expand...
Brown was drafted in the 7th.
Click to expand...
Not much difference between being a 7th rounder and UDFA.
Click to expand...
Yeah, actually there is. I'd say there is a bigger difference between an UDFA and a 7th round pick than there is between being a 7th round pick and a 4 round pick or better.
 
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
Andrew74 said:
Where are you seeing West at 1.08-1.12? Everything I see on ADP shows around 2.06-2.08. Then Crowell right after to late 3rd.
Click to expand...
1.11, 1.12 in two of my leagues. Then 1.08 in a league that began drafting yesterday. PPR, 0.5PPR, and PPR.

With all the positive buzz so far, he is only going to climb...
Click to expand...
Agreed. Here we are a month later and the guy with 1.5 in my league might actually pull the trigger on him. If he doesn't, I might do it at 1.8 or 1.9 as I am the Tate owner in our league.

 
jurb26 said:
Xue said:
zadok said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
- Bryce Brown is an apt comparison, since he was obviously more talented than many of those drafted (in hind sight), but still wasn't chosen. Many in here touted him as such, but were ridiculed. Similar to now.
Click to expand...
Brown was drafted in the 7th.
Click to expand...
Not much difference between being a 7th rounder and UDFA.
Click to expand...
Yeah, actually there is. I'd say there is a bigger difference between an UDFA and a 7th round pick than there is between being a 7th round pick and a 4 round pick or better.
Click to expand...
The UDFA has a shorter leash due to character concerns - that is the primary difference. 7th rounders are waived frequently. Tavarres King was a 5th rounder for Denver last year that was waived to the practice squad, promoted to the active roster, then demoted to practice squad to make room for Von Miller. 5th - 7th round picks are not guaranteed anything, but they do have longer leashes than an UDFA

 
The UDFA status of Crowell doesn't bother me a bit, because he is not your typical UDFA. As long as he doesn't screw up off the field, Crowell will be rostered. It's almost a certainty for me that he will have a better career than West whether it's in Cleveland or elsewhere as long as the off field concerns don't become an issue.

 
Winning IS Everything said:
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
Andrew74 said:
Where are you seeing West at 1.08-1.12? Everything I see on ADP shows around 2.06-2.08. Then Crowell right after to late 3rd.
Click to expand...
1.11, 1.12 in two of my leagues. Then 1.08 in a league that began drafting yesterday. PPR, 0.5PPR, and PPR.With all the positive buzz so far, he is only going to climb...
Click to expand...
Agreed. Here we are a month later and the guy with 1.5 in my league might actually pull the trigger on him. If he doesn't, I might do it at 1.8 or 1.9 as I am the Tate owner in our league.
Click to expand...
Interesting - he fell into the mid 2nd in my draft. And there were 4 (IIRC) RBs drafted in the 1st alone.
 
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