Terrance West vs Isaiah Crowell (1 Viewer)

[cloppbeast]

If I miss the window then so be it. There will be others. Can't have everyone I like. Generally speaking picking a udfa in the second round of a rookie draft over second round nfl draft picks and in some cases first round qb's is dumb. I'll try to get him when he represents value. If he never does. Oh well.

Yup. The problem I'm seeing is that the guys who ended up with Crowell reached for him big time. So, it's pretty likely they are the same ones who think he's the best RB of all the rookies despite the evidence against that. In other words, they are irrational about the price Crowell should go for. If Crowell shows any life at all in TC you can bet his cost to buy will be unrealistic. I think the only time to buy will be if he flops early but remains in the NFL on a team.

After the second round, I want to draft the guy with the most upside. I don't believe the other RBs around Crowell's ADP come close to matching his ceiling - most of them have the destiny of a committee back. Crowell looks more like a potential star than any middle round running back, even if he simultaneously looks more like a flop.

Crowell comes with a lot of risk, hence no NFL team drafted him. With such a chance of failure, I would never use a first rounder on him. But I can stomach giving up a third round pick. If he falls on his face, it cost me a chance to draft the next time share in Tampa Bay or New York. NBD.

 

[MAC_32]

If I miss the window then so be it. There will be others. Can't have everyone I like. Generally speaking picking a udfa in the second round of a rookie draft over second round nfl draft picks and in some cases first round qb's is dumb. I'll try to get him when he represents value. If he never does. Oh well.

Yup. The problem I'm seeing is that the guys who ended up with Crowell reached for him big time. So, it's pretty likely they are the same ones who think he's the best RB of all the rookies despite the evidence against that. In other words, they are irrational about the price Crowell should go for. If Crowell shows any life at all in TC you can bet his cost to buy will be unrealistic. I think the only time to buy will be if he flops early but remains in the NFL on a team.

After the second round, I want to draft the guy with the most upside. I don't believe the other RBs around Crowell's ADP come close to matching his ceiling - most of them have the destiny of a committee back. Crowell looks more like a potential star than any middle round running back, even if he simultaneously looks more like a flop.

Crowell comes with a lot of risk, hence no NFL team drafted him. With such a chance of failure, I would never use a first rounder on him. But I can stomach giving up a third round pick. If he falls on his face, it cost me a chance to draft the next time share in Tampa Bay or New York. NBD.

I don't think his upside is much different than Storm Johnson, McKinnon, or Taliaferro. Won't speak for other drafts, but I got all 3 of them in the 4th or later - includes IDP though - while Crowell went in the 2nd. I chose Davante Adams later in the 2nd instead.

 

[cloppbeast]

I don't think his upside is much different than Storm Johnson, McKinnon, or Taliaferro. Won't speak for other drafts, but I got all 3 of them in the 4th or later - includes IDP though - while Crowell went in the 2nd. I chose Davante Adams later in the 2nd instead.

We can disagree about Storm Johnson and Taliaferro's upside; but I'm with you on McKinnon. I'd gladly take Crowell and McKinnon in the 3rd/4th.

I admit, a second round price for Crowell exceeds the bounds of decency - especially with Adams on the board. (Nice pick, btw)

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I think this thread will eventually show how several smart people outsmarted themselves.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Update on first day of mandatory Browns mini-camp.

Undrafted free agent RB Isaih Crowell still not able to practice due to undisclosed injury.

Still very-early but latest reports are that rookie 3rd round draft pick RB Terrance West not only has looked good but according to reports media pundits say he's looked better than starting free agent RB Ben Tate.

Just passing on latest for those interested.

Were there pads involved?

I'm trying to figure whether your comment means that you don't understand OTAs or if it means that you think nothing about the NFL should be reported or discussed until Training Camp starts.

 

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

Update on first day of mandatory Browns mini-camp.

Undrafted free agent RB Isaih Crowell still not able to practice due to undisclosed injury.

Still very-early but latest reports are that rookie 3rd round draft pick RB Terrance West not only has looked good but according to reports media pundits say he's looked better than starting free agent RB Ben Tate.

Just passing on latest for those interested.

Were there pads involved?

I'm trying to figure whether your comment means that you don't understand OTAs or if it means that you think nothing about the NFL should be reported or discussed until Training Camp starts.

I think every time a player is reported as "looking good" or "better than the starter" should be taken with about 10 grains of salt during OTAs. Everybody looks good in shorts. In fact, most vets know that looking good in shorts means nothing and are just going through the motions. Meanwhile rookies and others with something to prove come out in OTAs going balls out. Of course they are going to look good when they are running full speed and everyone else is just out there.

 

[jurb26]

Update on first day of mandatory Browns mini-camp.

Undrafted free agent RB Isaih Crowell still not able to practice due to undisclosed injury.

Still very-early but latest reports are that rookie 3rd round draft pick RB Terrance West not only has looked good but according to reports media pundits say he's looked better than starting free agent RB Ben Tate.

Just passing on latest for those interested.

Were there pads involved?

I'm trying to figure whether your comment means that you don't understand OTAs or if it means that you think nothing about the NFL should be reported or discussed until Training Camp starts.

I think every time a player is reported as "looking good" or "better than the starter" should be taken with about 10 grains of salt during OTAs. Everybody looks good in shorts. In fact, most vets know that looking good in shorts means nothing and are just going through the motions. Meanwhile rookies and others with something to prove come out in OTAs going balls out. Of course they are going to look good when they are running full speed and everyone else is just out there.

This. But I'd say vets are trying to just not get injured in OTAs while rookies are trying to make a team. It's about as far a contrast as you will find in the NFL.

 

[Stealthycat]

a great time to buy Tate

 

[Bronco Billy]

Update on first day of mandatory Browns mini-camp.

Undrafted free agent RB Isaih Crowell still not able to practice due to undisclosed injury.

Still very-early but latest reports are that rookie 3rd round draft pick RB Terrance West not only has looked good but according to reports media pundits say he's looked better than starting free agent RB Ben Tate.

Just passing on latest for those interested.

Were there pads involved?

I'm trying to figure whether your comment means that you don't understand OTAs or if it means that you think nothing about the NFL should be reported or discussed until Training Camp starts.

I think every time a player is reported as "looking good" or "better than the starter" should be taken with about 10 grains of salt during OTAs. Everybody looks good in shorts. In fact, most vets know that looking good in shorts means nothing and are just going through the motions. Meanwhile rookies and others with something to prove come out in OTAs going balls out. Of course they are going to look good when they are running full speed and everyone else is just out there.

Good. What shall we discuss then? Recipe swapping?

 

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

Update on first day of mandatory Browns mini-camp.

Undrafted free agent RB Isaih Crowell still not able to practice due to undisclosed injury.

Still very-early but latest reports are that rookie 3rd round draft pick RB Terrance West not only has looked good but according to reports media pundits say he's looked better than starting free agent RB Ben Tate.

Just passing on latest for those interested.

Were there pads involved?

I'm trying to figure whether your comment means that you don't understand OTAs or if it means that you think nothing about the NFL should be reported or discussed until Training Camp starts.

I think every time a player is reported as "looking good" or "better than the starter" should be taken with about 10 grains of salt during OTAs. Everybody looks good in shorts. In fact, most vets know that looking good in shorts means nothing and are just going through the motions. Meanwhile rookies and others with something to prove come out in OTAs going balls out. Of course they are going to look good when they are running full speed and everyone else is just out there.

Good. What shall we discuss then? Recipe swapping?

That would be just as productive as "player x looked really good in 7 on 7s day one of OTAs. He must be better than player y." Then proceed to argue for 20 pages on it.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Update on first day of mandatory Browns mini-camp.

Undrafted free agent RB Isaih Crowell still not able to practice due to undisclosed injury.

Still very-early but latest reports are that rookie 3rd round draft pick RB Terrance West not only has looked good but according to reports media pundits say he's looked better than starting free agent RB Ben Tate.

Just passing on latest for those interested.

Were there pads involved?

I'm trying to figure whether your comment means that you don't understand OTAs or if it means that you think nothing about the NFL should be reported or discussed until Training Camp starts.

I think every time a player is reported as "looking good" or "better than the starter" should be taken with about 10 grains of salt during OTAs. Everybody looks good in shorts. In fact, most vets know that looking good in shorts means nothing and are just going through the motions. Meanwhile rookies and others with something to prove come out in OTAs going balls out. Of course they are going to look good when they are running full speed and everyone else is just out there.

Good. What shall we discuss then? Recipe swapping?

That would be just as productive as "player x looked really good in 7 on 7s day one of OTAs. He must be better than player y." Then proceed to argue for 20 pages on it.

I can't help but ask. Why do you participate in these threads if you consider any information gathered at this time of year to have no value?

 

[bengalbuck]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

 

[jurb26]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That along with the fact that he very coaching staff that supposedly doesn't value RBs traded up to get West in the 3rd round. There is no sugar coating this. Crowell simply isn't as good as all the internet experts thought he was.

 

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

Update on first day of mandatory Browns mini-camp.

Undrafted free agent RB Isaih Crowell still not able to practice due to undisclosed injury.

Still very-early but latest reports are that rookie 3rd round draft pick RB Terrance West not only has looked good but according to reports media pundits say he's looked better than starting free agent RB Ben Tate.

Just passing on latest for those interested.

Were there pads involved?

I'm trying to figure whether your comment means that you don't understand OTAs or if it means that you think nothing about the NFL should be reported or discussed until Training Camp starts.

I think every time a player is reported as "looking good" or "better than the starter" should be taken with about 10 grains of salt during OTAs. Everybody looks good in shorts. In fact, most vets know that looking good in shorts means nothing and are just going through the motions. Meanwhile rookies and others with something to prove come out in OTAs going balls out. Of course they are going to look good when they are running full speed and everyone else is just out there.

Good. What shall we discuss then? Recipe swapping?

That would be just as productive as "player x looked really good in 7 on 7s day one of OTAs. He must be better than player y." Then proceed to argue for 20 pages on it.

I can't help but ask. Why do you participate in these threads if you consider any information gathered at this time of year to have no value?

Some information does. Maybe I'm just too particular, or maybe enough of a fantasy veteran to see through the meaningless OTA blurbs. I want to know: who got hurt, who's not showing up, who's suspended, what kind of scheme is the new regime running, etc. Not "so and so looked explosive" or "better than the starter". It's freaking OTAs. Nothing about the pecking order is learned in OTAs. Do we really believe McFadden will be returning kicks in season? That Stafford will now make less mistakes because of OTAs? That Ellington is getting 400 touches?

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Update on first day of mandatory Browns mini-camp.

Undrafted free agent RB Isaih Crowell still not able to practice due to undisclosed injury.

Still very-early but latest reports are that rookie 3rd round draft pick RB Terrance West not only has looked good but according to reports media pundits say he's looked better than starting free agent RB Ben Tate.

Just passing on latest for those interested.

Were there pads involved?

I'm trying to figure whether your comment means that you don't understand OTAs or if it means that you think nothing about the NFL should be reported or discussed until Training Camp starts.

I think every time a player is reported as "looking good" or "better than the starter" should be taken with about 10 grains of salt during OTAs. Everybody looks good in shorts. In fact, most vets know that looking good in shorts means nothing and are just going through the motions. Meanwhile rookies and others with something to prove come out in OTAs going balls out. Of course they are going to look good when they are running full speed and everyone else is just out there.

Good. What shall we discuss then? Recipe swapping?

That would be just as productive as "player x looked really good in 7 on 7s day one of OTAs. He must be better than player y." Then proceed to argue for 20 pages on it.

I can't help but ask. Why do you participate in these threads if you consider any information gathered at this time of year to have no value?

Some information does. Maybe I'm just too particular, or maybe enough of a fantasy veteran to see through the meaningless OTA blurbs. I want to know: who got hurt, who's not showing up, who's suspended, what kind of scheme is the new regime running, etc. Not "so and so looked explosive" or "better than the starter". It's freaking OTAs. Nothing about the pecking order is learned in OTAs. Do we really believe McFadden will be returning kicks in season? That Stafford will now make less mistakes because of OTAs? That Ellington is getting 400 touches?

I shared information where two injuries were reported, one with a FA RB who missed critical learning and will be behind once TC begins. The other from an injury prone starting veteran RB that provided an opportunity for a 3rd round RB that the team move-up to get and he has looked very-good from all first hand accounts.

You shared sarcasm and now are telling everyone how wise you are as fantasy veteran player and that nothing can be learned from OTAs and you are scolding everyone about how nothing can be learned because you know all from your long history as a fantasy veteran.

I have no doubt you are a fantasy veteran but I'll share information I feel is pertinent. You can discount it all you want but I am also a fantasy veteran and I file away all information especially when dealing with unproven rookies looking for any insights.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Update on first day of mandatory Browns mini-camp.

Undrafted free agent RB Isaih Crowell still not able to practice due to undisclosed injury.

Still very-early but latest reports are that rookie 3rd round draft pick RB Terrance West not only has looked good but according to reports media pundits say he's looked better than starting free agent RB Ben Tate.

Just passing on latest for those interested.

Were there pads involved?

I'm trying to figure whether your comment means that you don't understand OTAs or if it means that you think nothing about the NFL should be reported or discussed until Training Camp starts.

I think every time a player is reported as "looking good" or "better than the starter" should be taken with about 10 grains of salt during OTAs. Everybody looks good in shorts. In fact, most vets know that looking good in shorts means nothing and are just going through the motions. Meanwhile rookies and others with something to prove come out in OTAs going balls out. Of course they are going to look good when they are running full speed and everyone else is just out there.

Good. What shall we discuss then? Recipe swapping?

That would be just as productive as "player x looked really good in 7 on 7s day one of OTAs. He must be better than player y." Then proceed to argue for 20 pages on it.

I can't help but ask. Why do you participate in these threads if you consider any information gathered at this time of year to have no value?

Some information does. Maybe I'm just too particular, or maybe enough of a fantasy veteran to see through the meaningless OTA blurbs. I want to know: who got hurt, who's not showing up, who's suspended, what kind of scheme is the new regime running, etc. Not "so and so looked explosive" or "better than the starter". It's freaking OTAs. Nothing about the pecking order is learned in OTAs. Do we really believe McFadden will be returning kicks in season? That Stafford will now make less mistakes because of OTAs? That Ellington is getting 400 touches?

Well, I guess I'm just not as savvy at FF as you are. One day I hope to be though.

In the meantime, because I play in several large leagues that start 19 to 20 guys with full IDP squads, on any given bye week teams can be starting RB45, WR72, LB65, etc. so I am always looking for a guy with potential to break through into that strata or higher and because I play with a lot of guys like you who are much smarter than me I have to be able to pull the trigger on the WW pretty early, sometimes as soon as a couple of weeks after the NFL draft. Otherwise the break out guys won't be there.

So forgive me if I find that these threads have some value to me. Maybe some day I'll be smart enough that they won't. Hopefully at that time I won't feel the need to enter that thread to voice my derision on those more inept FFers populating it with their comments.

 

[Nero]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

LeGarrette Blount went from a top RB prospect to undrafted overnight. The NFL is very fickle about who gets drafted. Given Blount's profile before going undrafted, it should come as no surprise that he has had some NFL success. Were there 20 or so more talented RB's in his draft class? No.

Where did he measure up talent wise with his class? Probably as one of the top prospects he was originally thought to be before falling from grace.

Crowell has to follow a similar path, as he is a better RB than most of peers. I'll take him over West every time.

 

[cloppbeast]

Well, I guess I'm just not as savvy at FF as you are. One day I hope to be though.In the meantime, because I play in several large leagues that start 19 to 20 guys with full IDP squads, on any given bye week teams can be starting RB45, WR72, LB65, etc. so I am always looking for a guy with potential to break through into that strata or higher and because I play with a lot of guys like you who are much smarter than me I have to be able to pull the trigger on the WW pretty early, sometimes as soon as a couple of weeks after the NFL draft. Otherwise the break out guys won't be there.

So forgive me if I find that these threads have some value to me. Maybe some day I'll be smart enough that they won't. Hopefully at that time I won't feel the need to enter that thread to voice my derision on those more inept FFers populating it with their comments.

This time of year does not offer much information worth the time it takes to read. In fact, much of it is complete nonsense. For instance, does it really matter that Jeff Duncan at the New Orleans Times-Picayune noticed Mark Ingram displaying more focus?

I admit some tidbits have more value than others; but I will largely let a beat reporter's opinion in June go in and out. As time goes on, their observations accumulate into something meaningful. But for now, I won't change my projections for Tate or West.

 

[GridironMenace]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That along with the fact that he very coaching staff that supposedly doesn't value RBs traded up to get West in the 3rd round. There is no sugar coating this. Crowell simply isn't as good as all the internet experts thought he was.

I've been reading this thread on and off since it was started and I haven't really said anything as of yet. However, I just can't let this string of stupid go without a comment. Hey peeps, have you ever heard of a football player named Arian Foster? Just curious, because he went UNDRAFTED. What round was Terrell Davis drafted in? Tom Brady? Marques Colston? Jamal Anderson? Shannon Sharpe? I could continue, but I'd rather not. The fact is that NFL scouts, GM's, execs, and Head Coaches bat right about 50% when it comes to landing a hit on players drafted in the FIRST ROUND. There are a ton of players that go on to have solid NFL careers that get drafted in the 6th and 7th rounds, not to mention those that sign as UDFA's. The reason why Crowell went undrafted had zero to do with his football skillset and everything to do with teams not wanting his personality possibly tainting the clubhouse.

Here are the facts:

- Cleveland drafted West in Rnd 3 to be Tate's backup

- Cleveland then signed Crowell as an UDFA.

- In a typical 12 team league one of these players are going to cost you a mid-1st to early 2nd to draft.

- The other will cost you a late 2nd to late 3rd to draft.

- Both players are going to have a legit shot at earning the backup HB job and no one knows what is going to happen.

So with that in mind, regardless of what happens, you'd be an absolute fool to draft West at 1.11 when you could have Crowell at 3.02 (or later).

 

[GridironMenace]

With all that said, this situation is eerily similar to the Lynch, Turbin an Michael situation last year. Turbin won the backup job and Michael was a weekly inactive. However, when push comes to shove, Michael is clearly the superior talent and will get the chance to start when Lynch goes. In Cleveland, I doubt that Crowell actually wins the #2 job. It's probably a foregone conclusion that West wins the job and Crowell is a weekly inactive. However, with that said, if Tate moves on next year, I think Crowell will be the man and run with the job. With Crowell's off field history the coaching staff needs to keep him and his ego in check. Handing him a training camp "win" over West is just going to taint him further. Force him to be a 'good boy' on the practice squad for a season, learn how to be a good teammate, don't do anything stupid and Cleveland is going to reward him in 2015.

 

[jurb26]

I've been reading this thread on and off since it was started and I haven't really said anything as of yet. However, I just can't let this string of stupid go without a comment. Hey peeps, have you ever heard of a football player named Arian Foster? Just curious, because he went UNDRAFTED. What round was Terrell Davis drafted in? Tom Brady? Marques Colston? Jamal Anderson? Shannon Sharpe? I could continue, but I'd rather not. The fact is that NFL scouts, GM's, execs, and Head Coaches bat right about 50% when it comes to landing a hit on players drafted in the FIRST ROUND. There are a ton of players that go on to have solid NFL careers that get drafted in the 6th and 7th rounds, not to mention those that sign as UDFA's. The reason why Crowell went undrafted had zero to do with his football skillset and everything to do with teams not wanting his personality possibly tainting the clubhouse.

Here are the facts:

- Cleveland drafted West in Rnd 3 to be Tate's backup

- Cleveland then signed Crowell as an UDFA.

- In a typical 12 team league one of these players are going to cost you a mid-1st to early 2nd to draft.

- The other will cost you a late 2nd to late 3rd to draft.

- Both players are going to have a legit shot at earning the backup HB job and no one knows what is going to happen.

So with that in mind, regardless of what happens, you'd be an absolute fool to draft West at 1.11 when you could have Crowell at 3.02 (or later).

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That along with the fact that he very coaching staff that supposedly doesn't value RBs traded up to get West in the 3rd round. There is no sugar coating this. Crowell simply isn't as good as all the internet experts thought he was.

I've been reading this thread on and off since it was started and I haven't really said anything as of yet. However, I just can't let this string of stupid go without a comment. Hey peeps, have you ever heard of a football player named Arian Foster? Just curious, because he went UNDRAFTED. What round was Terrell Davis drafted in? Tom Brady? Marques Colston? Jamal Anderson? Shannon Sharpe? I could continue, but I'd rather not. The fact is that NFL scouts, GM's, execs, and Head Coaches bat right about 50% when it comes to landing a hit on players drafted in the FIRST ROUND. There are a ton of players that go on to have solid NFL careers that get drafted in the 6th and 7th rounds, not to mention those that sign as UDFA's. The reason why Crowell went undrafted had zero to do with his football skillset and everything to do with teams not wanting his personality possibly tainting the clubhouse.

Here are the facts:

- Cleveland drafted West in Rnd 3 to be Tate's backup

- Cleveland then signed Crowell as an UDFA.

- In a typical 12 team league one of these players are going to cost you a mid-1st to early 2nd to draft.

- The other will cost you a late 2nd to late 3rd to draft.

- Both players are going to have a legit shot at earning the backup HB job and no one knows what is going to happen.

So with that in mind, regardless of what happens, you'd be an absolute fool to draft West at 1.11 when you could have Crowell at 3.02 (or later).

A fact you left off. J. Hill had nearly the same amount of off field issues and he was taken in the 2nd round. You really think we need a list of the players who are the glaring exception and made it as UDFA? If you think Crowell's talent had zero to do with his undrafted status you are simply out of touch. It had something to so with it. Heck, maybe it had a lot to do with it. The NFL doesn't intentionally leave talented players out. If they thought he was nearly as good as you and many of the internet experts he would have been drafted. It's that simple. That doesn't mean he has zero chance to amount to something in the NFL. It just means it would be a rarity, like the guys you listed. Another fact you left out is their ADPs, which are very similar and not exactly what you've portrayed. West has an ADP of 2.08, Crowell 3.02. So yeah, you'd be a fool to draft West at 1.11 because is nowhere near his actual ADP. Their values are very similar. Actually, Crowell got drafted first in both my dynasty league. Probably because those leagues are heavily populated by guys here at FBG. So, West is in reality the better value.

 

[bmsarvis]

Tate signed two years I think bud. Looking like he'll be there through two years w his very team friendly contract

 

[MAC_32]

Tate signed two years I think bud. Looking like he'll be there through two years w his very team friendly contract

i think they can get out of the deal at no cost after one year if they wish.

 

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

Update on first day of mandatory Browns mini-camp.

Undrafted free agent RB Isaih Crowell still not able to practice due to undisclosed injury.

Still very-early but latest reports are that rookie 3rd round draft pick RB Terrance West not only has looked good but according to reports media pundits say he's looked better than starting free agent RB Ben Tate.

Just passing on latest for those interested.

Were there pads involved?

I'm trying to figure whether your comment means that you don't understand OTAs or if it means that you think nothing about the NFL should be reported or discussed until Training Camp starts.

I think every time a player is reported as "looking good" or "better than the starter" should be taken with about 10 grains of salt during OTAs. Everybody looks good in shorts. In fact, most vets know that looking good in shorts means nothing and are just going through the motions. Meanwhile rookies and others with something to prove come out in OTAs going balls out. Of course they are going to look good when they are running full speed and everyone else is just out there.

Good. What shall we discuss then? Recipe swapping?

That would be just as productive as "player x looked really good in 7 on 7s day one of OTAs. He must be better than player y." Then proceed to argue for 20 pages on it.

I can't help but ask. Why do you participate in these threads if you consider any information gathered at this time of year to have no value?

Some information does. Maybe I'm just too particular, or maybe enough of a fantasy veteran to see through the meaningless OTA blurbs. I want to know: who got hurt, who's not showing up, who's suspended, what kind of scheme is the new regime running, etc. Not "so and so looked explosive" or "better than the starter". It's freaking OTAs. Nothing about the pecking order is learned in OTAs. Do we really believe McFadden will be returning kicks in season? That Stafford will now make less mistakes because of OTAs? That Ellington is getting 400 touches?

Well, I guess I'm just not as savvy at FF as you are. One day I hope to be though. In the meantime, because I play in several large leagues that start 19 to 20 guys with full IDP squads, on any given bye week teams can be starting RB45, WR72, LB65, etc. so I am always looking for a guy with potential to break through into that strata or higher and because I play with a lot of guys like you who are much smarter than me I have to be able to pull the trigger on the WW pretty early, sometimes as soon as a couple of weeks after the NFL draft. Otherwise the break out guys won't be there.

So forgive me if I find that these threads have some value to me. Maybe some day I'll be smart enough that they won't. Hopefully at that time I won't feel the need to enter that thread to voice my derision on those more inept FFers populating it with their comments.

Hey I'm just answering the questions asked to me. No ill will intended.

 

[Xue]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That along with the fact that he very coaching staff that supposedly doesn't value RBs traded up to get West in the 3rd round. There is no sugar coating this. Crowell simply isn't as good as all the internet experts thought he was.

Yeah, no sugar coating. Put on the damn tape. West isn't even the most talented FCS RB that was drafted.

Crowell is 25 days short of 2 years younger than West. Let that sink in for a moment.

If you want immediate production go with West. If you want a future long-term starter/lottery ticket type go with Crowell. I can see him having a career path similar to Bryce Bown.

 

[jurb26]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That along with the fact that he very coaching staff that supposedly doesn't value RBs traded up to get West in the 3rd round. There is no sugar coating this. Crowell simply isn't as good as all the internet experts thought he was.

Yeah, no sugar coating. Put on the damn tape. West isn't even the most talented FCS RB that was drafted.

I've watched Crowell a great deal. Both a UGA and his Bama St. I thought he would be drafted so I'm surprised a bit and also guilty of overestimating his ability. It's ok and I can live with the fact that I probably got that one wrong. Still, I never thought he was near the talent many of you portrayed. West being the best RB in the FCS or not has nothing to do with the actual topic. All that matters is if he is better than Crowell.

 

[Xue]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That along with the fact that he very coaching staff that supposedly doesn't value RBs traded up to get West in the 3rd round. There is no sugar coating this. Crowell simply isn't as good as all the internet experts thought he was.

Yeah, no sugar coating. Put on the damn tape. West isn't even the most talented FCS RB that was drafted.

I've watched Crowell a great deal. Both a UGA and his Bama St. I thought he would be drafted so I'm surprised a bit and also guilty of overestimating his ability. It's ok and I can live with the fact that I probably got that one wrong. Still, I never thought he was near the talent many of you portrayed.West being the best RB in the FCS or not has nothing to do with the actual topic. All that matters is if he is better than Crowell.

If your argument is that West was drafted higher because he was more talented then it's surely wrong. He has a nice total package of skills. Crowell is just simply a more talented runner. Some may view that highly, some may not.

 

[jurb26]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That along with the fact that he very coaching staff that supposedly doesn't value RBs traded up to get West in the 3rd round. There is no sugar coating this. Crowell simply isn't as good as all the internet experts thought he was.

Yeah, no sugar coating. Put on the damn tape. West isn't even the most talented FCS RB that was drafted.

I've watched Crowell a great deal. Both a UGA and his Bama St. I thought he would be drafted so I'm surprised a bit and also guilty of overestimating his ability. It's ok and I can live with the fact that I probably got that one wrong. Still, I never thought he was near the talent many of you portrayed.West being the best RB in the FCS or not has nothing to do with the actual topic. All that matters is if he is better than Crowell.

If your argument is that West was drafted higher because he was more talented then it's surely wrong. He has a nice total package of skills. Crowell is just simply a more talented runner. Some may view that highly, some may not.

The argument is that Clev drafted him higher because they feel he's more talented. It's not really an open argument. It actually happened. The team you said doesn't value RBs used a 3rd on West. They clearly like him. If you can explain their decision to draft him that highly and also the premise that they did so because they don't think he's that talented then I'm all ears.

 

[Xue]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That along with the fact that he very coaching staff that supposedly doesn't value RBs traded up to get West in the 3rd round. There is no sugar coating this. Crowell simply isn't as good as all the internet experts thought he was.

Yeah, no sugar coating. Put on the damn tape. West isn't even the most talented FCS RB that was drafted.

I've watched Crowell a great deal. Both a UGA and his Bama St. I thought he would be drafted so I'm surprised a bit and also guilty of overestimating his ability. It's ok and I can live with the fact that I probably got that one wrong. Still, I never thought he was near the talent many of you portrayed.West being the best RB in the FCS or not has nothing to do with the actual topic. All that matters is if he is better than Crowell.

If your argument is that West was drafted higher because he was more talented then it's surely wrong. He has a nice total package of skills. Crowell is just simply a more talented runner. Some may view that highly, some may not.

The argument is that Clev drafted him higher because they feel he's more talented. It's not really an open argument. It actually happened. The team you said doesn't value RBs used a 3rd on West. They clearly like him. If you can explain their decision to draft him that highly and also the premise that they did so because they don't think he's that talented then I'm all ears.

How is it not open? Being drafted higher automatically means you're more talented? If you want to look at from a simplistic and lazy way, sure. Not 100% true in all cases. If you want to actually analyze the players individually, they're not close in talent.

They used the 30th pick of round 3. That's so close to the 4th round. West could have easily been a "4th round pick". They clearly like him, but it's more than his talent. He's basically the total opposite of Crowell off the field. Some teams value that, some teams might not.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Tate signed two years I think bud. Looking like he'll be there through two years w his very team friendly contract

i think they can get out of the deal at no cost after one year if they wish.

That is my understanding. Tate isn't a lock to be on the roster beyond 2014.

 

[Bob Magaw]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That along with the fact that he very coaching staff that supposedly doesn't value RBs traded up to get West in the 3rd round. There is no sugar coating this. Crowell simply isn't as good as all the internet experts thought he was.

I've been reading this thread on and off since it was started and I haven't really said anything as of yet. However, I just can't let this string of stupid go without a comment. Hey peeps, have you ever heard of a football player named Arian Foster? Just curious, because he went UNDRAFTED. What round was Terrell Davis drafted in? Tom Brady? Marques Colston? Jamal Anderson? Shannon Sharpe? I could continue, but I'd rather not. The fact is that NFL scouts, GM's, execs, and Head Coaches bat right about 50% when it comes to landing a hit on players drafted in the FIRST ROUND. There are a ton of players that go on to have solid NFL careers that get drafted in the 6th and 7th rounds, not to mention those that sign as UDFA's. The reason why Crowell went undrafted had zero to do with his football skillset and everything to do with teams not wanting his personality possibly tainting the clubhouse.

Here are the facts:

- Cleveland drafted West in Rnd 3 to be Tate's backup

- Cleveland then signed Crowell as an UDFA.

- In a typical 12 team league one of these players are going to cost you a mid-1st to early 2nd to draft.

- The other will cost you a late 2nd to late 3rd to draft.

- Both players are going to have a legit shot at earning the backup HB job and no one knows what is going to happen.

So with that in mind, regardless of what happens, you'd be an absolute fool to draft West at 1.11 when you could have Crowell at 3.02 (or later).

I wouldn't say string of stupid as you have, but I disagree with some things here.

Have you ever heard of all the free agents that that were mediocre or utter failures. No, and that is the point, they were mediocre and utter failures, and there have been many, many, many, many more of them than the Arian Foster-type success story examples. Its not a high percentage play.

Why make a point about how a player's undrafted status should not be held against him, and than recite a litany of DRAFTED players to make that point (there are other undrafted players like Kurt Warner, Tony Romo, etc.)?

If the percentage is 50% for first rounders hitting, what is it for rounds 2-3-4-5-6-7 and undrafted free agents? This is in part a moot point since West was a third rounder, but is there really no correlation between first rounders having a higher percentage of hitting than sixth and seventh rounders?

It wasn't just Crowell's personality, he was arrested on three gun charges, two of which were felonies.

If you are suggesting West has no chance to supplant Tate in the future (or to earn close to an even split of RBBC carries in the future), I don't agree. Tate isn't an entrenched starter.

In the four drafts I was in (IDP, mostly 14 team, one 16 team), Crowell generally went in the late second and West in the early/mid-third. Your ADP info (as noted upthread) may be a lot different than what others have experienced.

 

[jurb26]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That along with the fact that he very coaching staff that supposedly doesn't value RBs traded up to get West in the 3rd round. There is no sugar coating this. Crowell simply isn't as good as all the internet experts thought he was.

Yeah, no sugar coating. Put on the damn tape. West isn't even the most talented FCS RB that was drafted.

I've watched Crowell a great deal. Both a UGA and his Bama St. I thought he would be drafted so I'm surprised a bit and also guilty of overestimating his ability. It's ok and I can live with the fact that I probably got that one wrong. Still, I never thought he was near the talent many of you portrayed.West being the best RB in the FCS or not has nothing to do with the actual topic. All that matters is if he is better than Crowell.

If your argument is that West was drafted higher because he was more talented then it's surely wrong. He has a nice total package of skills. Crowell is just simply a more talented runner. Some may view that highly, some may not.

The argument is that Clev drafted him higher because they feel he's more talented. It's not really an open argument. It actually happened. The team you said doesn't value RBs used a 3rd on West. They clearly like him. If you can explain their decision to draft him that highly and also the premise that they did so because they don't think he's that talented then I'm all ears.

How is it not open? Being drafted higher automatically means you're more talented? If you want to look at from a simplistic and lazy way, sure. Not 100% true in all cases. If you want to actually analyze the players individually, they're not close in talent.

They used the 30th pick of round 3. That's so close to the 4th round. West could have easily been a "4th round pick". They clearly like him, but it's more than his talent. He's basically the total opposite of Crowell off the field. Some teams value that, some teams might not.

Are you even reading the posts you are responding too? Doesn't look like it.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Wow. Awfully high expectations for a guy every single management and coaching crew in the NFL failed to think was worth even risking a 7th round pick on. Even as an UDFA by published accounts only CLE, BAL, and OAK showed any serious interest.

I know some few have succeeded under these circumstances, but multitudes more have failed to become even significant contributors (not to mention those not even playing in one regular season NFL game). The odds are squarely against him. It's not as though his game doesn't have flaws - and that goes beyond the attitude a character issues.

He may strike it big, but to simply discount the very long odds against him and act as though he's a shoe-in seems odd.

 

[Andrew74]

Wow. Awfully high expectations for a guy every single management and coaching crew in the NFL failed to think was worth even risking a 7th round pick on. Even as an UDFA by published accounts only CLE, BAL, and OAK showed any serious interest.

I know some few have succeeded under these circumstances, but multitudes more have failed to become even significant contributors (not to mention those not even playing in one regular season NFL game). The odds are squarely against him. It's not as though his game doesn't have flaws - and that goes beyond the attitude a character issues.

He may strike it big, but to simply discount the very long odds against him and act as though he's a shoe-in seems odd.

We're just morons Billy. Just be glad the amateur experts are here to remind us of that.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I'm sure there are some, but I'm having trouble thinking of any. Can someone get me a list of UDFAs that were kicked off a college team that went on to have big NFL careers?

 

[Bronco Billy]

Wow. Awfully high expectations for a guy every single management and coaching crew in the NFL failed to think was worth even risking a 7th round pick on. Even as an UDFA by published accounts only CLE, BAL, and OAK showed any serious interest.

I know some few have succeeded under these circumstances, but multitudes more have failed to become even significant contributors (not to mention those not even playing in one regular season NFL game). The odds are squarely against him. It's not as though his game doesn't have flaws - and that goes beyond the attitude a character issues.

He may strike it big, but to simply discount the very long odds against him and act as though he's a shoe-in seems odd.

We're just morons Billy. Just be glad the amateur experts are here to remind us of that.

Oh. I'm sorry. You're right - you are much more competent at player evaluation than the amalgam of management and coaches in the NFL.

What could I possibly have been thinking?

Just one question - since you are so much more brilliant than all those decision makers in the NFL, how is it that you haven't marketed yourself to them? They ought to pay a genius like you top dollar. Maybe that would be a pay cut for you.

 

[jurb26]

Wow. Awfully high expectations for a guy every single management and coaching crew in the NFL failed to think was worth even risking a 7th round pick on. Even as an UDFA by published accounts only CLE, BAL, and OAK showed any serious interest.

I know some few have succeeded under these circumstances, but multitudes more have failed to become even significant contributors (not to mention those not even playing in one regular season NFL game). The odds are squarely against him. It's not as though his game doesn't have flaws - and that goes beyond the attitude a character issues.

He may strike it big, but to simply discount the very long odds against him and act as though he's a shoe-in seems odd.

We're just morons Billy. Just be glad the amateur experts are here to remind us of that.

Oh. I'm sorry. You're right - you are much more competent at player evaluation than the amalgam of management and coaches in the NFL.

What could I possibly have been thinking?

Just one question - since you are so much more brilliant than all those decision makers in the NFL, how is it that you haven't marketed yourself to them? They ought to pay a genius like you top dollar. Maybe that would be a pay cut for you.

Why are you mad at Andrew74? Looks like he's on your side.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Wow. Awfully high expectations for a guy every single management and coaching crew in the NFL failed to think was worth even risking a 7th round pick on. Even as an UDFA by published accounts only CLE, BAL, and OAK showed any serious interest.

I know some few have succeeded under these circumstances, but multitudes more have failed to become even significant contributors (not to mention those not even playing in one regular season NFL game). The odds are squarely against him. It's not as though his game doesn't have flaws - and that goes beyond the attitude a character issues.

He may strike it big, but to simply discount the very long odds against him and act as though he's a shoe-in seems odd.

We're just morons Billy. Just be glad the amateur experts are here to remind us of that.

Oh. I'm sorry. You're right - you are much more competent at player evaluation than the amalgam of management and coaches in the NFL. What could I possibly have been thinking?

Just one question - since you are so much more brilliant than all those decision makers in the NFL, how is it that you haven't marketed yourself to them? They ought to pay a genius like you top dollar. Maybe that would be a pay cut for you.

Why are you mad at Andrew74? Looks like he's on your side.

Then I misread the intent of his response. It appeared to be very sarcastic to me. If I did misinterpret then I apologize wholeheartedly.

 

[bengalbuck]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

LeGarrette Blount went from a top RB prospect to undrafted overnight. The NFL is very fickle about who gets drafted. Given Blount's profile before going undrafted, it should come as no surprise that he has had some NFL success.Were there 20 or so more talented RB's in his draft class? No.

Where did he measure up talent wise with his class? Probably as one of the top prospects he was originally thought to be before falling from grace.

Crowell has to follow a similar path, as he is a better RB than most of peers. I'll take him over West every time.

Agree to disagree. Good luck with Crowell and I will be happy with West in the leagues I was able to grab him.

Blount may have been top 20 in his class (and so too might Crowell), but I never argued against that. My argument is that he wouldn't have gone undrafted if he was the top (#1) talent.

And I used the 20+ drafted specifically to shoot down the argument that he wasn't drafted just because the NFL doesn't value RBs that highly anymore. The 20+ drafted shows that it wasn't about RB value in general, but about Crowell in particular.

As for Blount, he was cut by his first NFL team. Essentially cut by his 2nd (traded for peanuts instead of just cutting him outright). And his 3rd team made no effort to resign him as a FA when he went and signed with a 4th team for less than $2M a year. None of that screams superstar talent or best RB in his class in regards to Blount. He's basically just a guy at the NFL level.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Since it's quite possible I did misread, I'd like to reiterate my position. I'm not stating with surety than Crowell will fail. I'm questioning those who are just completely dismissing the long odds against him when he was thought of so little (or more accurately as such an enormously high risk) by every NFL team. The overwhelming predominance of the teams were not even interested as an UDFA.

Could he make it big? Yes. But the deck is stacked decidedly against it.

I'd be willing to make the argument that even with perfect character that he wouldn't have gone until Rd 3 at the very earliest. There's an awful lot of credit being given to his freshman year, but when with his alleged superior ability he should have torn up a lesser league and didn't, plus the stories that he was just disinterested, that his workload was low because he was always complaining of injuries, his poor pass blocking and lack of effort therein - I'm seeing an entitled bad character who doesn't get it and whose talent doesn't supercede his attitude an character issues.

 

[jurb26]

Since it's quite possible I did misread, I'd like to reiterate my position. I'm not stating with surety than Crowell will fail. I'm questioning those who are just completely dismissing the long odds against him when he was thought of so little (or more accurately as such an enormously high risk) by every NFL team. The overwhelming predominance of the teams were not even interested as an UDFA.

Could he make it big? Yes. But the deck is stacked decidedly against it.

Agreed. Many in this thread think it's stupid to play the odds. , though.

 

[Nero]

Crowell was suspended a couple of times his freshman year at Georgia and at least 1 was for a failed drug test. He then gets stopped, reeking of marijuana and gets charged with possession of a gun with an obliterated serial in his mother's car. Of course the gun was later learned to be stolen. He was kicked off the team. That is Aaron Hernandez level red flags for a player who does not play a premium position.

I'm sure his off field associations are still going to determine what opportunities he is given as I'd expect the Browns to keep close tabs on him. I'm pretty confident that when he gets an opportunity, he will easily out class Terrance West.

 

[msommer]

Based on their ADPs neither player is going where I would consider picking them

 

[Shanahanigans]

Since it's quite possible I did misread, I'd like to reiterate my position. I'm not stating with surety than Crowell will fail. I'm questioning those who are just completely dismissing the long odds against him when he was thought of so little (or more accurately as such an enormously high risk) by every NFL team. The overwhelming predominance of the teams were not even interested as an UDFA.

Could he make it big? Yes. But the deck is stacked decidedly against it.

I'd be willing to make the argument that even with perfect character that he wouldn't have gone until Rd 3 at the very earliest. There's an awful lot of credit being given to his freshman year, but when with his alleged superior ability he should have torn up a lesser league and didn't, plus the stories that he was just disinterested, that his workload was low because he was always complaining of injuries, his poor pass blocking and lack of effort therein - I'm seeing an entitled bad character who doesn't get it and whose talent doesn't supercede his attitude an character issues.

Agreed. This idea that "when he gets his opportunity he will shine" is foolish because odds are he never even gets the opportunity. You have to play the odds in fantasy, and Crowell is much less likely to make a fantasy impact than West.

And for all those that say they would take Crowell given his ADP compared to West, that was not the question of the thread. It wasn't, "who presents more value" it was "who would you rather have, West or Crowell."

 

[Andrew74]

Wow. Awfully high expectations for a guy every single management and coaching crew in the NFL failed to think was worth even risking a 7th round pick on. Even as an UDFA by published accounts only CLE, BAL, and OAK showed any serious interest.

I know some few have succeeded under these circumstances, but multitudes more have failed to become even significant contributors (not to mention those not even playing in one regular season NFL game). The odds are squarely against him. It's not as though his game doesn't have flaws - and that goes beyond the attitude a character issues.

He may strike it big, but to simply discount the very long odds against him and act as though he's a shoe-in seems odd.

We're just morons Billy. Just be glad the amateur experts are here to remind us of that.

Oh. I'm sorry. You're right - you are much more competent at player evaluation than the amalgam of management and coaches in the NFL. What could I possibly have been thinking?

Just one question - since you are so much more brilliant than all those decision makers in the NFL, how is it that you haven't marketed yourself to them? They ought to pay a genius like you top dollar. Maybe that would be a pay cut for you.

Why are you mad at Andrew74? Looks like he's on your side.

Then I misread the intent of his response. It appeared to be very sarcastic to me. If I did misinterpret then I apologize wholeheartedly.

Ha, yeah, I was on your side.

 

[Bronx Bomber]

Lets put a FF analogy to this. Last year Gordon fell to 8th or 9th in redraft due to his two game suspension. We knew he had tons of talent but many owners passed on him for somewhat less talented but safer options with higher floors but lower ceilings. Once they felt they had stability in their WRs they then took a chance on him since he had upside but question marks surrounding off field issues. Same thing with Gronk and his injury and many others. We worked with what we knew at the time and tried to balance that with the overall good of the team.

Why is this any different? NFL teams know they don't need top talent at RB if they have a good line and a good scheme. They took West because he is solid and stable to help hedge injuries with Tate. Once they felt stable they sign Crowell that "many" felt had one of the best pure talents but enough risks to not pay rookie money to. So yes, they probably are high in West do to the solid stability he brings with a decent ceiling in his own right, but that has nothing to do with the talent of Crowell.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Lets put a FF analogy to this. Last year Gordon fell to 8th or 9th in redraft due to his two game suspension. We knew he had tons of talent but many owners passed on him for somewhat less talented but safer options with higher floors but lower ceilings. Once they felt they had stability in their WRs they then took a chance on him since he had upside but question marks surrounding off field issues. Same thing with Gronk and his injury and many others. We worked with what we knew at the time and tried to balance that with the overall good of the team.

Why is this any different? NFL teams know they don't need top talent at RB if they have a good line and a good scheme. They took West because he is solid and stable to help hedge injuries with Tate. Once they felt stable they sign Crowell that "many" felt had one of the best pure talents but enough risks to not pay rookie money to. So yes, they probably are high in West do to the solid stability he brings with a decent ceiling in his own right, but that has nothing to do with the talent of Crowell.

Josh Gordon was drafted in the 2nd round. Janoris Jenkins and Tyran Mathieu were kicked off of their college teams and were drafted in the 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively. Crowell was undrafted despite coming out alongside one of the weakest RB classes in recent history.

I realize there is a bigger premium on those positions than there is on RBs but it doesn't nearly make up for that huge of a gap.

So what's the answer to why he went SO much later than those guys? Is he viewed as an even bigger off the field risk than a guy that ended up suspended for an entire year, or is he not quite the standout talent that people once thought he was? My guess is a little bit of both.

 

[Bronx Bomber]

Lets put a FF analogy to this. Last year Gordon fell to 8th or 9th in redraft due to his two game suspension. We knew he had tons of talent but many owners passed on him for somewhat less talented but safer options with higher floors but lower ceilings. Once they felt they had stability in their WRs they then took a chance on him since he had upside but question marks surrounding off field issues. Same thing with Gronk and his injury and many others. We worked with what we knew at the time and tried to balance that with the overall good of the team.

I

Why is this any different? NFL teams know they don't need top talent at RB if they have a good line and a good scheme. They took West because he is solid and stable to help hedge injuries with Tate. Once they felt stable they sign Crowell that "many" felt had one of the best pure talents but enough risks to not pay rookie money to. So yes, they probably are high in West do to the solid stability he brings with a decent ceiling in his own right, but that has nothing to do with the talent of Crowell.

Josh Gordon was drafted in the 2nd round. Janoris Jenkins and Tyran Mathieu were kicked off of their college teams and were drafted in the 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively. Crowell was undrafted despite coming out alongside one of the weakest RB classes in recent history.

I realize there is a bigger premium on those positions than there is on RBs but it doesn't nearly make up for that huge of a gap.

So what's the answer to why he went SO much later than those guys? Is he viewed as an even bigger off the field risk than a guy that ended up suspended for an entire year, or is he not quite the standout talent that people once thought he was? My guess is a little bit of both.

I was talking about FF drafts. (Making an analogy)

 

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

Lets put a FF analogy to this. Last year Gordon fell to 8th or 9th in redraft due to his two game suspension. We knew he had tons of talent but many owners passed on him for somewhat less talented but safer options with higher floors but lower ceilings. Once they felt they had stability in their WRs they then took a chance on him since he had upside but question marks surrounding off field issues. Same thing with Gronk and his injury and many others. We worked with what we knew at the time and tried to balance that with the overall good of the team.

Why is this any different? NFL teams know they don't need top talent at RB if they have a good line and a good scheme. They took West because he is solid and stable to help hedge injuries with Tate. Once they felt stable they sign Crowell that "many" felt had one of the best pure talents but enough risks to not pay rookie money to. So yes, they probably are high in West do to the solid stability he brings with a decent ceiling in his own right, but that has nothing to do with the talent of Crowell.

Josh Gordon was drafted in the 2nd round. Janoris Jenkins and Tyran Mathieu were kicked off of their college teams and were drafted in the 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively. Crowell was undrafted despite coming out alongside one of the weakest RB classes in recent history.

I realize there is a bigger premium on those positions than there is on RBs but it doesn't nearly make up for that huge of a gap.

So what's the answer to why he went SO much later than those guys? Is he viewed as an even bigger off the field risk than a guy that ended up suspended for an entire year, or is he not quite the standout talent that people once thought he was? My guess is a little bit of both.

They likely knew from talks with other teams that he would not be drafted. They also likely knew from talks with him that he would be interested in joining the Browns, either by draft or free agency. There's a lot more at play here than "this guy was more talented so that's why they took him" or "this guy is a big risk and not that talented so that's why he wasn't drafted". Bryce Brown was mentioned earlier, and I think that fits perfectly for a comparison--not from a skill perspective but from a situation perspective.As for Crowell, I've seen several of his interviews, and he seemed to know from talking with teams there was a good chance he would not be selected. He seemed genuinely remorseful to me, and at peace with the fact that he may have to earn his way onto a roster and work his way up. He even mentioned Foster in one of his interviews as a path that seemed he would need to take. He even talked about the likelihood of needing to play special teams if that's what it took. I think his head his screwed on straight now for what it's worth. Now it will come down to talent, which most think he has plenty, and opportunity, which most believe there will be. I think at his current price (3.09) in my recent rookie only draft, he is well worth it. Certainly less of a risk there than West at 1.08, when there are starting caliber WR, TE, and QB on the board...

 

[Joe Bryant]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That along with the fact that he very coaching staff that supposedly doesn't value RBs traded up to get West in the 3rd round. There is no sugar coating this. Crowell simply isn't as good as all the internet experts thought he was.

I've been reading this thread on and off since it was started and I haven't really said anything as of yet. However, I just can't let this string of stupid go without a comment. Hey peeps, have you ever heard of a football player named Arian Foster? Just curious, because he went UNDRAFTED. What round was Terrell Davis drafted in? Tom Brady? Marques Colston? Jamal Anderson? Shannon Sharpe? I could continue, but I'd rather not. The fact is that NFL scouts, GM's, execs, and Head Coaches bat right about 50% when it comes to landing a hit on players drafted in the FIRST ROUND. There are a ton of players that go on to have solid NFL careers that get drafted in the 6th and 7th rounds, not to mention those that sign as UDFA's. The reason why Crowell went undrafted had zero to do with his football skillset and everything to do with teams not wanting his personality possibly tainting the clubhouse.

Here are the facts:

- Cleveland drafted West in Rnd 3 to be Tate's backup

- Cleveland then signed Crowell as an UDFA.

- In a typical 12 team league one of these players are going to cost you a mid-1st to early 2nd to draft.

- The other will cost you a late 2nd to late 3rd to draft.

- Both players are going to have a legit shot at earning the backup HB job and no one knows what is going to happen.

So with that in mind, regardless of what happens, you'd be an absolute fool to draft West at 1.11 when you could have Crowell at 3.02 (or later).

Take the weekend off. If you come back, don't call other posters comments stupid or say they'd be a fool.

J