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Vilma (1 Viewer)

Rovers

Rovers

Footballguy
OK, it's only the preseason, and it's only two games. BUT.... I said here that Vilma would drop out of the top five LB point scoring this year... and fact is, I atually felt he'd drop out of the top ten, but knew I'd get so much heat for the first premise, I dared not to post my actual opinion that he will remain a force from a team D standpoint, he is no longer a FF stud.... out of the top ten.

Now, emboldened with the early preseason results...... I think Vilma may at some point go to OLB in the 3-4. That isn't full time.... since so far the Jets actually show more of a 5-2 front than anything else. In that alignment, Vilma stays up and is one of the two LB's in the scheme.

In any case.... I did say trade Vilma while you could get a starting RB for him.... not sure you can do that now.

This is exactly why offensive players are and will remain the core of good FF rosters. QB's are QB's, WR's, WR's, RB's are RB's.... their value doesnt change much. Look at how Barnett went from top ten to... wherever... a sure fire stud, but now, like Vilma, a serious question mark. Up for discussion, and i'm in full pads. :football:

EDIT: Edited title to avoid ruffling feathers....

 
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Rovers said:
OK, it's only the preseason, and it's only two games. BUT.... I said here that Vilma would drop out of the top five LB point scoring this year... and fact is, I atually felt he'd drop out of the top ten, but knew I'd get so much heat for the first premise, I dared not to post my actual opinion that he will remain a force from a team D standpoint, he is no longer a FF stud.... out of the top ten. Now, emboldened with the early preseason results...... I think Vilma may at some point go to OLB in the 3-4. That isn't full time.... since so far the Jets actually show more of a 5-2 front than anything else. In that alignment, Vilma stays up and is one of the two LB's in the scheme. In any case.... I did say trade Vilma while you could get a starting RB for him.... not sure you can do that now. This is exactly why offensive players are and will remain the core of good FF rosters. QB's are QB's, WR's, WR's, RB's are RB's.... their value doesnt change much. Look at how Barnett went from top ten to... wherever... a sure fire stud, but now, like Vilma, a serious question mark. Up for discussion, and i'm in full pads. :football:
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what % of plays do you expect the jets to run the 3/4 this yr?and how much have they run it so far in the PS?
 
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Keg, they show this 5-2 front more than anything else so far. Then, they tend to pull one of the OLB's off the line to drop into coverage, or send him to pressure the QB. They also pull both OLB's, and send one of the ILB's on the pass rush. It may be an effective NFL scheme, but it's FF hell. Sometimes they drop all 4 LB's, or just 3 into coverage, and send a safety on a blitz.... note Kerry Rhodes' half sack against Washington.

Even though the NFL.COM site has listed the starters as a 4-3 scheme, it does not reflect what the Jets have been doing. This is a fluid defense.... and I can't characterize it as a 3-4, a 4-3, or a 5-2 as a base defense.... they are mixing it up a lot, which is what Mangini said they would do.

 
Rovers said:
it's only the preseason
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This is the only thing that matters in this post.Frankly, if you could have gotten a good starting RB for him, it probably would have been beneficial to do so, but in most leagues, that wasn't happening.Vilma will be fine. IDPs are a challenge to project, and while it's possible that he won't be a top 5 LB, he's still the top IDP to draft in my book.
 
-OZ- said:
Rovers said:
it's only the preseason
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This is the only thing that matters in this post.Frankly, if you could have gotten a good starting RB for him, it probably would have been beneficial to do so, but in most leagues, that wasn't happening.Vilma will be fine. IDPs are a challenge to project, and while it's possible that he won't be a top 5 LB, he's still the top IDP to draft in my book.
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Normally, I'd agree..... but this IS an entirely new scheme, and all bets are off. If you are banking on Vilma being a top five LB, I say you will be disappointed.... as for your comment about one half sentence being the only thing that matters in my thread starter.... ah, nevermind. It's a bad thing to discuss how scheme changes can affect IDP studs. I'll keep that in mind for future posts.
 
Rovers said:
OK, it's only the preseason, and it's only two games. BUT.... I said here that Vilma would drop out of the top five LB point scoring this year... and fact is, I atually felt he'd drop out of the top ten, but knew I'd get so much heat for the first premise, I dared not to post my actual opinion that he will remain a force from a team D standpoint, he is no longer a FF stud.... out of the top ten. Now, emboldened with the early preseason results...... I think Vilma may at some point go to OLB in the 3-4. That isn't full time.... since so far the Jets actually show more of a 5-2 front than anything else. In that alignment, Vilma stays up and is one of the two LB's in the scheme. In any case.... I did say trade Vilma while you could get a starting RB for him.... not sure you can do that now. This is exactly why offensive players are and will remain the core of good FF rosters. QB's are QB's, WR's, WR's, RB's are RB's.... their value doesnt change much. Look at how Barnett went from top ten to... wherever... a sure fire stud, but now, like Vilma, a serious question mark. Up for discussion, and i'm in full pads. :football:
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While I knew there would be a drop, it is a little early to say I told you so. They have run 4-3, 5-2 and 3-4 sets and the only thing that really matters to me is how much he is playing in relation to his points.He will be fine, top 3, doubtful, but fine none the lessTom
 
Ah.... yeah, that's what I said. Multiple fronts. So far, based on PT, he will average about 5 or 6 tackles a game, and so far is out of the big play column. He hasn't blitzed, and has been getting buried so far in the pile, but I realize this doesn't mean much now. I'm sure he'll get plenty of INT's, sacks and tackles once he learns the system. It's the preseason, doesn't mean a thing. He'll learn how to play in this scheme, and make top 5 easy.

 
Rovers said:
Ah.... yeah, that's what I said. Multiple fronts. So far, based on PT, he will average about 5 or 6 tackles a game, and so far is out of the big play column. He hasn't blitzed, and has been getting buried so far in the pile, but I realize this doesn't mean much now. I'm sure he'll get plenty of INT's, sacks and tackles once he learns the system. It's the preseason, doesn't mean a thing. He'll learn how to play in this scheme, and make top 5 easy.
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No need to get defensive, especially when you start off with "I told you so".My point is that he is a proven commodidty who may experience a drop due to the new scheme it is way to early to tell since he has yet to play a meaningful game and 4 qtrs at that.Tom
 
Rovers, you know I love you but Vilma is even less likely to have an impact as a 3-4 hybrid OLB in NFL or IDP terms, especially if the problem is getting swallowed up by blockers. 4-3 Will, sure, but not in this hybrid scheme. I've been with you all along with concerns about the NT situation, though I'm still not ready to throw Vilma to the dregs of the LB2s just yet.

And what you're seeing is the Belichick hybrid defense. Any number of fronts, and whoever has the talent will get used. Bruschi (and Vrabel when he plays ILB) frequently come on blitzes as will a corner or safety if they can finish the play. It's not unusual to see both OLB with a hand down on "3-4" looks or for both to rush from a stand up position. Belichick (and his growing number of disciples) aren't looking out for the typical 'tweener rush OLB -- he wants smart, all-around players who can understand multiple assignments and read and react well.

Like the Browns last year, the Jets are going to go through some of the same growing pains. Unfortunately, it'll be without a guy like Ted Washington to grandfather Vilma through the bumps in the road.

I think we're all on the same page here. I think your boy will be fine when everything settles down. If not, he'll be an awful pretty buy low candidate when the Jets get a nice fatman to play in front of him.

 
I'm not a hardcore IDP guy, but Vilma looked pretty inept on D vs. the Redskins - and it wasn't the blocking. He wasn't in position to make the plays like he seemed to be all last year. I would blame the scheme, but that's based solely on that week's efforts.

 
Well... when someone tells you that only a half sentence in a thread starter means anything... yeah, I guess I do get a bit defensive. Disagree, discuss... all great stuff. This is FF, and it's ALL about forecasting. That's what I am doing here, it's like predicting the weather.... sometimes it only rains on one side of the street... that's tough to predict.

I still think Vilma will be a very good FF linebacker... top 15 is nothing to sneeze at. I agree with Jeff.... it wasn't so much that Vilma was getting buried by O linemen, he genuinely seems uncorfortable in this scheme. If I was to use just these two preseason games as benchmarks, heck, Vilma wouldn't be top 30. He will improve in this scheme, but I really think he may be better on the outside (from a pure football standpoint, not FF) ... pure opinion and conjecture on my part. BTW, I was one of the people that said Vilma could shed blocks in this scheme, but this defense doesn't funnel tackles to him anymore.

Jene... yes, the NE ILB's do get sent, but so far, they haven't done that with Vilma. It's been all Bryan Thomas so far, from the outside. I also agree that once there is a solid NT in front of him, he will improve. Too early for an I told you so? Maybe, but I'll stick my neck out here, because I believe what I'm saying. For this year, I think Vilma is going to have his difficulties. Both Kassel and Schlegel look much more effective out there so far.

I raised the red flag on Coleman's abilty to hold onto the SS starting spot early, and I called the Rhodes emergence last year during TC. I know I'm quite fallable, so I don't garantee my forecasts, but my track record speaks for itself. Take it for whatever you think it is, or isn't worth. :football:

 
i agree. i love seeing Vilma on top of peoples LB list because someone is going to reach for him way too early.

i don't think he drops out of the top 10 (maybe borderline 9-11) but i also don't think he will be the top 3 so many project for him.

 
Keeper deadline is today. I've been putting out trade offers involving Vilma for a week. No takers unless someone caves at the last minute. 14 teams, keep 7 (progressive +1 per year), start just 5 IDPs. I'm not keeping him. :no:

 
Rovers said:
Well... when someone tells you that only a half sentence in a thread starter means anything... yeah, I guess I do get a bit defensive. Disagree, discuss... all great stuff. This is FF, and it's ALL about forecasting. That's what I am doing here, it's like predicting the weather.... sometimes it only rains on one side of the street... that's tough to predict. I still think Vilma will be a very good FF linebacker... top 15 is nothing to sneeze at. I agree with Jeff.... it wasn't so much that Vilma was getting buried by O linemen, he genuinely seems uncorfortable in this scheme. If I was to use just these two preseason games as benchmarks, heck, Vilma wouldn't be top 30. He will improve in this scheme, but I really think he may be better on the outside (from a pure football standpoint, not FF) ... pure opinion and conjecture on my part. BTW, I was one of the people that said Vilma could shed blocks in this scheme, but this defense doesn't funnel tackles to him anymore. Jene... yes, the NE ILB's do get sent, but so far, they haven't done that with Vilma. It's been all Bryan Thomas so far, from the outside. I also agree that once there is a solid NT in front of him, he will improve. Too early for an I told you so? Maybe, but I'll stick my neck out here, because I believe what I'm saying. For this year, I think Vilma is going to have his difficulties. Both Kassel and Schlegel look much more effective out there so far. I raised the red flag on Coleman's abilty to hold onto the SS starting spot early, and I called the Rhodes emergence last year during TC. I know I'm quite fallable, so I don't garantee my forecasts, but my track record speaks for itself. Take it for whatever you think it is, or isn't worth. :football:
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/slight hijack/ OK, Rovers, riddle me this? Was I smart to target Justin Miller in my two recent drafts (CB-required, points for return yards? /slight hijack over/With the qualifier that it IS only preseason, Vilma was getting met by guards on all the run plays I saw. With his size and speed, I dunno if ILB in a 3-4 is the best fit for him, FF-wise.
 
I don't think there's any way that Vilma will ever be moved fulltime to OLB in a 3-4 front. Would be possibly the worst coaching decision ever made.

 
Rovers said:
Well... when someone tells you that only a half sentence in a thread starter means anything... yeah, I guess I do get a bit defensive. Disagree, discuss... all great stuff. This is FF, and it's ALL about forecasting. That's what I am doing here, it's like predicting the weather.... sometimes it only rains on one side of the street... that's tough to predict.
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I was a bit too blunt in that comment, but you were a bit abrasive with the "I told you so" comment. Preseason means very little. It's entirely possible that Vilma never learns his role, that the Jets don't use their best player productively, etc. But it isn't likely. In a redraft, I'd probably not take him above Bulluck or a couple others. In a dynasty? He'll remain my top dog. Will he be overpriced in drafts? Entirely possible, but this is why I don't take LBs early in redrafts. As you told us so, please tell us the 5-10 LBs you place above him.As for him being uncomfortable in the scheme, I'm not the least bit surprised. If he's still uncomfortable at the end of camp, I'll be mildly surprised. If he remains uncomfortable all year, I'll be very surprised.FWIW, you may very well be right, time will tell.
 
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-OZ- said:
Rovers said:
Well... when someone tells you that only a half sentence in a thread starter means anything... yeah, I guess I do get a bit defensive. Disagree, discuss... all great stuff. This is FF, and it's ALL about forecasting. That's what I am doing here, it's like predicting the weather.... sometimes it only rains on one side of the street... that's tough to predict.
Click to expand...
I was a bit too blunt in that comment, but you were a bit abrasive with the "I told you so" comment. Preseason means very little. It's entirely possible that Vilma never learns his role, that the Jets don't use their best player productively, etc. But it isn't likely. In a redraft, I'd probably not take him above Bulluck or a couple others. In a dynasty? He'll remain my top dog. Will he be overpriced in drafts? Entirely possible, but this is why I don't take LBs early in redrafts. As you told us so, please tell us the 5-10 LBs you place above him.As for him being uncomfortable in the scheme, I'm not the least bit surprised. If he's still uncomfortable at the end of camp, I'll be mildly surprised. If he remains uncomfortable all year, I'll be very surprised.FWIW, you may very well be right, time will tell.
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The "I told you so" comment was supposed to be tongue in cheek, and certainly wasn't directed at any particular person. Sorry you took it so personally. It wasn't intended to be any sort of "abrasvive" comment....I think Vilma's numbers will be closer to what Bruschi compiles in the NE defense. In 2003, 2004, rough numbers, taking an average of both years (they were pretty close) Bruschi averaged 78 tackles and 50 assists. Last year Vilma had 124 and 45. Bruschi had a good NT in front of him, while Vilma does not. I think tackle numbers like 90 and 50 are a realistic expectation. Bruschi had a total of 5.5 sacks and 6 INT's those two years. I think Vilma will also exceed those numbers, but not by a whole lot. LB's that I think will outscore Vilma this year:BullockM PetersonUrlacherTatupuZ ThomasFletcherMitchellPierceBrooksWitherspoonEdwardsin no particular order. There are about 5 LB's in that list that Vilma will be close to, like Brooks and Witherspoon, they will be bunched in that 245point group together (based on my league's scoring sytem). I think Vilma will be on the field a bit less, and he will lose tackles to Barton and the SS, whether that be Coleman or Smith. I just don't see how Vilma remains in the top five in this defense, and based on what I've seen in the first two preseason games. While I agree preseason games don't mean much in general, but coaches can see what is working and what isn't. That's why Kimo vonOllenhoffen has been playing some NT, and moving Robertson to DE. They know this middle of the line run D is not working well. Even at that, i have Vilma scoring more than Bruschi in the same defense. Is Vilma that much better than Bruschi without a good NT in fron of him? I don't think so. Like i said, I'm fallable, and could be wrong (I made that point in the thread starter).
 
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Rovers said:
-OZ- said:
Rovers said:
Well... when someone tells you that only a half sentence in a thread starter means anything... yeah, I guess I do get a bit defensive. Disagree, discuss... all great stuff. This is FF, and it's ALL about forecasting. That's what I am doing here, it's like predicting the weather.... sometimes it only rains on one side of the street... that's tough to predict.
Click to expand...
I was a bit too blunt in that comment, but you were a bit abrasive with the "I told you so" comment. Preseason means very little. It's entirely possible that Vilma never learns his role, that the Jets don't use their best player productively, etc. But it isn't likely. In a redraft, I'd probably not take him above Bulluck or a couple others. In a dynasty? He'll remain my top dog. Will he be overpriced in drafts? Entirely possible, but this is why I don't take LBs early in redrafts. As you told us so, please tell us the 5-10 LBs you place above him.As for him being uncomfortable in the scheme, I'm not the least bit surprised. If he's still uncomfortable at the end of camp, I'll be mildly surprised. If he remains uncomfortable all year, I'll be very surprised.FWIW, you may very well be right, time will tell.
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The "I told you so" comment was supposed to be tongue in cheek, and certainly wasn't directed at any particular person. Sorry you took it so personally. It wasn't intended to be any sort of "abrasvive" comment....I think Vilma's numbers will be closer to what Bruschi compiles in the NE defense. In 2003, 2004, rough numbers, taking an average of both years (they were pretty close) Bruschi averaged 78 tackles and 50 assists. Last year Vilma had 124 and 45. Bruschi had a good NT in front of him, while Vilma does not. I think tackle numbers like 90 and 50 are a realistic expectation. Bruschi had a total of 5.5 sacks and 6 INT's those two years. I think Vilma will also exceed those numbers, but not by a whole lot. LB's that I think will outscore Vilma this year:BullockM PetersonUrlacherTatupuZ ThomasFletcherMitchellPierceBrooksWitherspoonEdwardsin no particular order. There are about 5 LB's in that list that Vilma will be close to, like Brooks and Witherspoon, they will be bunched in that 245point group together (based on my league's scoring sytem). I think Vilma will be on the field a bit less, and he will lose tackles to Barton and the SS, whether that be Coleman or Smith. I just don't see how Vilma remains in the top five in this defense, and based on what I've seen in the first two preseason games. While I agree preseason games don't mean much in general, but coaches can see what is working and what isn't. That's why Kimo vonOllenhoffen has been playing some NT, and moving Robertson to DE. They know this middle of the line run D is not working well. Even at that, i have Vilma scoring more than Bruschi in the same defense. Is Vilma that much better than Bruschi without a good NT in fron of him? I don't think so. Like i said, I'm fallable, and could be wrong (I made that point in the thread starter).
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Rovers,I like the list ( I have a number of them) but I am not sure Kawika AND Derrick Johnson can both be ranked that high. Brackett and or June might crack that ceiling as well as long as health prevails. I also feel Fletcher is in for a drop off as they convert to the new defense. Nothing to base it on, just a hunch. That same hunch says Ray gets back and Zach falls off a bit.Tom
 
massraider said:
Rovers said:
Well... when someone tells you that only a half sentence in a thread starter means anything... yeah, I guess I do get a bit defensive. Disagree, discuss... all great stuff. This is FF, and it's ALL about forecasting. That's what I am doing here, it's like predicting the weather.... sometimes it only rains on one side of the street... that's tough to predict. I still think Vilma will be a very good FF linebacker... top 15 is nothing to sneeze at. I agree with Jeff.... it wasn't so much that Vilma was getting buried by O linemen, he genuinely seems uncorfortable in this scheme. If I was to use just these two preseason games as benchmarks, heck, Vilma wouldn't be top 30. He will improve in this scheme, but I really think he may be better on the outside (from a pure football standpoint, not FF) ... pure opinion and conjecture on my part. BTW, I was one of the people that said Vilma could shed blocks in this scheme, but this defense doesn't funnel tackles to him anymore. Jene... yes, the NE ILB's do get sent, but so far, they haven't done that with Vilma. It's been all Bryan Thomas so far, from the outside. I also agree that once there is a solid NT in front of him, he will improve. Too early for an I told you so? Maybe, but I'll stick my neck out here, because I believe what I'm saying. For this year, I think Vilma is going to have his difficulties. Both Kassel and Schlegel look much more effective out there so far. I raised the red flag on Coleman's abilty to hold onto the SS starting spot early, and I called the Rhodes emergence last year during TC. I know I'm quite fallable, so I don't garantee my forecasts, but my track record speaks for itself. Take it for whatever you think it is, or isn't worth. :football:
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/slight hijack/ OK, Rovers, riddle me this? Was I smart to target Justin Miller in my two recent drafts (CB-required, points for return yards? /slight hijack over/With the qualifier that it IS only preseason, Vilma was getting met by guards on all the run plays I saw. With his size and speed, I dunno if ILB in a 3-4 is the best fit for him, FF-wise.
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Miller.... he had a tough game against Washington, and in another development, leon Washington took a kick off return to the house against the Skins. Dwight has the punt return job, so a week ago Miller looked solid.... now, not so good. I understand preseason, but this is when jobs are also won.... and lost. Tom, you might be right about Fletcher, but I think Mitchell could have a really big year. Cunningham has gone with Edwards scheme (appears to me) that funnels running plays to the MLB. He's a sleeper of mine for top five. Vilma is a great talent, but it's the Edwards defensive scheme that made him a FF uber-stud. Now, Mitchell may reap the same rewards...
 
Rovers said:
massraider said:
Rovers said:
Well... when someone tells you that only a half sentence in a thread starter means anything... yeah, I guess I do get a bit defensive. Disagree, discuss... all great stuff. This is FF, and it's ALL about forecasting. That's what I am doing here, it's like predicting the weather.... sometimes it only rains on one side of the street... that's tough to predict. I still think Vilma will be a very good FF linebacker... top 15 is nothing to sneeze at. I agree with Jeff.... it wasn't so much that Vilma was getting buried by O linemen, he genuinely seems uncorfortable in this scheme. If I was to use just these two preseason games as benchmarks, heck, Vilma wouldn't be top 30. He will improve in this scheme, but I really think he may be better on the outside (from a pure football standpoint, not FF) ... pure opinion and conjecture on my part. BTW, I was one of the people that said Vilma could shed blocks in this scheme, but this defense doesn't funnel tackles to him anymore. Jene... yes, the NE ILB's do get sent, but so far, they haven't done that with Vilma. It's been all Bryan Thomas so far, from the outside. I also agree that once there is a solid NT in front of him, he will improve. Too early for an I told you so? Maybe, but I'll stick my neck out here, because I believe what I'm saying. For this year, I think Vilma is going to have his difficulties. Both Kassel and Schlegel look much more effective out there so far. I raised the red flag on Coleman's abilty to hold onto the SS starting spot early, and I called the Rhodes emergence last year during TC. I know I'm quite fallable, so I don't garantee my forecasts, but my track record speaks for itself. Take it for whatever you think it is, or isn't worth. :football:
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/slight hijack/ OK, Rovers, riddle me this? Was I smart to target Justin Miller in my two recent drafts (CB-required, points for return yards? /slight hijack over/With the qualifier that it IS only preseason, Vilma was getting met by guards on all the run plays I saw. With his size and speed, I dunno if ILB in a 3-4 is the best fit for him, FF-wise.
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Miller.... he had a tough game against Washington, and in another development, leon Washington took a kick off return to the house against the Skins. Dwight has the punt return job, so a week ago Miller looked solid.... now, not so good. I understand preseason, but this is when jobs are also won.... and lost. Tom, you might be right about Fletcher, but I think Mitchell could have a really big year. Cunningham has gone with Edwards scheme (appears to me) that funnels running plays to the MLB. He's a sleeper of mine for top five. Vilma is a great talent, but it's the Edwards defensive scheme that made him a FF uber-stud. Now, Mitchell may reap the same rewards...
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Last week the announcers were saying that the defense would be "funneling" the plays to Jared Allen, Kawicka Mitchell and Derrick Johnson. I wish I would have heard more on it but it caught my attention none the less. As a DJ owner, I would be thrilled to see him match what he did in the first half of the 05 season.Good call on your partTom
 
ffchamp1 said:
Rovers said:
massraider said:
Rovers said:
Well... when someone tells you that only a half sentence in a thread starter means anything... yeah, I guess I do get a bit defensive. Disagree, discuss... all great stuff. This is FF, and it's ALL about forecasting. That's what I am doing here, it's like predicting the weather.... sometimes it only rains on one side of the street... that's tough to predict. I still think Vilma will be a very good FF linebacker... top 15 is nothing to sneeze at. I agree with Jeff.... it wasn't so much that Vilma was getting buried by O linemen, he genuinely seems uncorfortable in this scheme. If I was to use just these two preseason games as benchmarks, heck, Vilma wouldn't be top 30. He will improve in this scheme, but I really think he may be better on the outside (from a pure football standpoint, not FF) ... pure opinion and conjecture on my part. BTW, I was one of the people that said Vilma could shed blocks in this scheme, but this defense doesn't funnel tackles to him anymore. Jene... yes, the NE ILB's do get sent, but so far, they haven't done that with Vilma. It's been all Bryan Thomas so far, from the outside. I also agree that once there is a solid NT in front of him, he will improve. Too early for an I told you so? Maybe, but I'll stick my neck out here, because I believe what I'm saying. For this year, I think Vilma is going to have his difficulties. Both Kassel and Schlegel look much more effective out there so far. I raised the red flag on Coleman's abilty to hold onto the SS starting spot early, and I called the Rhodes emergence last year during TC. I know I'm quite fallable, so I don't garantee my forecasts, but my track record speaks for itself. Take it for whatever you think it is, or isn't worth. :football:
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/slight hijack/ OK, Rovers, riddle me this? Was I smart to target Justin Miller in my two recent drafts (CB-required, points for return yards? /slight hijack over/With the qualifier that it IS only preseason, Vilma was getting met by guards on all the run plays I saw. With his size and speed, I dunno if ILB in a 3-4 is the best fit for him, FF-wise.
Click to expand...
Miller.... he had a tough game against Washington, and in another development, leon Washington took a kick off return to the house against the Skins. Dwight has the punt return job, so a week ago Miller looked solid.... now, not so good. I understand preseason, but this is when jobs are also won.... and lost. Tom, you might be right about Fletcher, but I think Mitchell could have a really big year. Cunningham has gone with Edwards scheme (appears to me) that funnels running plays to the MLB. He's a sleeper of mine for top five. Vilma is a great talent, but it's the Edwards defensive scheme that made him a FF uber-stud. Now, Mitchell may reap the same rewards...
Click to expand...
Last week the announcers were saying that the defense would be "funneling" the plays to Jared Allen, Kawicka Mitchell and Derrick Johnson. I wish I would have heard more on it but it caught my attention none the less. As a DJ owner, I would be thrilled to see him match what he did in the first half of the 05 season.Good call on your partTom
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That would be funneling plays to either side and the middle, so I suppose the others on each side could simply take on blocks, but I'm not seeing two Chief LBs in the top 10. Either could be.Mitchell is one of the MLBs whose stats will most likely greatly exceed his talent. Good pick there.
Rovers said:
The "I told you so" comment was supposed to be tongue in cheek, and certainly wasn't directed at any particular person. Sorry you took it so personally. It wasn't intended to be any sort of "abrasvive" comment....I think Vilma's numbers will be closer to what Bruschi compiles in the NE defense. In 2003, 2004, rough numbers, taking an average of both years (they were pretty close) Bruschi averaged 78 tackles and 50 assists. Last year Vilma had 124 and 45. Bruschi had a good NT in front of him, while Vilma does not. I think tackle numbers like 90 and 50 are a realistic expectation. Bruschi had a total of 5.5 sacks and 6 INT's those two years. I think Vilma will also exceed those numbers, but not by a whole lot.
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:lol: I didn't think that comment was directed to me, so why would I take it personally? (I didn't)FWIW, Bruschi was #6 and 7 in 03 and 04 in my main league. Obviously it depends on scoring system, so I won't get into that too much. You even think Vilma will do better in sacks and INTs, so it would seem top 5 is well within reach. I already conceded that he probably won't be #1.As for the good NT, Washington played 10 games in 03, was a Raider in 04. Wilfork was a rookie in 04, I don't recall him dominating that year.I understand the coaching background, but do you think Bruschi is a much better comparison than Donnie Edwards? Vilma's talent is closer to Edwards IMO.
 
Vilma was my defensive keeper in my 32 team league. Once I heard they were getting a new coach and changing schemes I had him on the trading block ASAP. Since offensive depth seems more important to me in a 32 team league, I traded him away for DeShaun Foster and some other players. That gave me two "starting" RB's and there are several teams that don't have 1 starting RB. So, I got what I could for Vilma and am not regretting the trade at all. I expect him to have a down year. I got Mike Peterson to replace him anyway. :)

 
Please enlighten me as to what "scheme" Herm Edwards runs. I'm not even sure he knows. :P His time with Donnie Henderson is New York was just plain nutty. Some Cover-2, some Tampa-2, some traditional 4-3 looks. I didn't notice much Cover-2 in the brief look we got the other night.

I don't think the defense will be much different than the one Gunther ran last year. But I wouldn't be shocked if it changed colors frequently midseason either.

 
Jene Bramel said:
Please enlighten me as to what "scheme" Herm Edwards runs. I'm not even sure he knows. :P His time with Donnie Henderson is New York was just plain nutty. Some Cover-2, some Tampa-2, some traditional 4-3 looks. I didn't notice much Cover-2 in the brief look we got the other night. I don't think the defense will be much different than the one Gunther ran last year. But I wouldn't be shocked if it changed colors frequently midseason either.
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IMO, the changes will be personnel driven. Corners are much better, which should allow more of a pass rush. Not sure which scheme he'll use, but I can see DJ, Allen and when he's ready, Hali bringing pressure early and often.
 
Jene Bramel said:
Please enlighten me as to what "scheme" Herm Edwards runs. I'm not even sure he knows. :P His time with Donnie Henderson is New York was just plain nutty. Some Cover-2, some Tampa-2, some traditional 4-3 looks. I didn't notice much Cover-2 in the brief look we got the other night. I don't think the defense will be much different than the one Gunther ran last year. But I wouldn't be shocked if it changed colors frequently midseason either.
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One thing that never changed in NY in Edwards' scheme was the front 4 , and what their assignments were. Both DE's had to turn outside rushes inside. On the interior, it was a base 1T and 3T scheme. The 1T was supposed to take up both the Center and LG garnering a double team. The 3T, as you know, was supposed to penetrate on every play, rush or pass D. Ellis, being pretty good against the run, did a good job of turning the running play back inside. The 1T next to him, was supposed to eat up blockers, not very different from a NT in a 3-4. If the 3T got the needed penetration, that would funnel ball carriers into the middle, where Vilma was by design, supposed to make a lot of tackles. Abraham was vunerable to being run at directly, especially when a lead blocker was used. Perhaps you recall the fistfight Vilma had with Reed last year? Reed was the 1T, but played it like a 3T. That helped his tackle numbers, but it meant the center was free to block Vilma.... Reed's refusal to play the technique properly was why he was one of Mangini's first cuts. Truth is, Reed, like a whole lot of players under Edwards, was playing a position he was ill suited to play. Vilma still got his tackles, but many were further downfield that they should have been. BUT... this is why I at first thought Vilma would be ok shedding blocks in the 3-4.... he was shedding blocks last year too. However, after watching some TC and the two P.S. games, I think Vilma is having trouble, both in shedding blocks, getting caught up in traffic and hving trouble reading plays early enough to react and make the play. So, in fact, I've done something of a 180 on Vilma. So far, he hasn't adapted well. No, I don't think Mangini will move him outside, but I am not at all sure that in this scheme that is where he is best suited. Without protection, so far Vilma's sideline to sideline playmaking ability has been negated. On the outside, where his speed is more important than his undersized frame in the middle is.... call me nuts.... I think he's better suited from a football standpoint to the outside, where he can drop into coverage, pick off passes and use his speed on blitzes. More of a Lawrence Taylor type of role... he has that kind of ability on the outside.
 
Rovers,

I respect your opinion especially for Jets IDP (I can't think of a more reliable source), I am curious to see what you think the impact of the new defensive scheme is for safeties. We know Coleman is a risk due to other issues (might not keep his starting job), but what about Rhodes? What are the implications for him? You told us in a different thread that he's looking good, but do you think the change in scheme is a plus or a minus for him?

 
Islander said:
Rovers,I respect your opinion especially for Jets IDP (I can't think of a more reliable source), I am curious to see what you think the impact of the new defensive scheme is for safeties. We know Coleman is a risk due to other issues (might not keep his starting job), but what about Rhodes? What are the implications for him? You told us in a different thread that he's looking good, but do you think the change in scheme is a plus or a minus for him?
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Rhodes will be a semi-typical FS. He will get some blitz calls, and if scheme dictates, should get some INT's. The majority of his tackles will come downfield a ways, I suspect. Whoever the SS is, will, or at least should put up good tackle numbers, and do some run blitzing and be up in the box a lot, very similar to Rodney Harrison's role in NE. I happen to think that Smith is better suited to that position than Coleman is, but that is yet to be determined.... Coleman has missed a lot of camp, and Smith is getting all the first team snaps. Add the fact that in Coleman's absence, Rhodes has taken over the play calling in the D backfield, that makes Coleman's spot that much more tentative as a starter. He really didn't need that apendectomy. (from a footbal standpoint)Coleman had returned to limited practice duties last week, but I'm not sure if he's ready for full practice. I had planned to go to TC today, but after seeing the news that Barlow was given the day off, decided to go tomorrow instead, the last day of "open to the public" practices. Strait, as far as I know, has only gotten snaps in the preseason games at SS. Rumor is, Cleveland is still interested in Strait, their DB's are banged up. I think he's being showcased. Rhodes appears to be a CS favorite, and looks to be solidly entrenched at FS, but also has the size to swap out to SS in situations.In standard scoring leagues, I think Rhodes is the better, and safer FF value. He's become the leader of the D backfield. In a new league dynasty draft, we gave him the longest contract of all the DB's we drafted (co-owned team). Mangini wants his players prepared to move around... so Rhodes could play as much SS as he does FS. In fact, Mangini has had him take some reps at CB as well, but I highly doubt that will happen in a game. Either way, he's estabished himself as THE guy in the D backfield.... the only one that is a lock for every down.
 
Rovers said:
Islander said:
Rovers,I respect your opinion especially for Jets IDP (I can't think of a more reliable source), I am curious to see what you think the impact of the new defensive scheme is for safeties. We know Coleman is a risk due to other issues (might not keep his starting job), but what about Rhodes? What are the implications for him? You told us in a different thread that he's looking good, but do you think the change in scheme is a plus or a minus for him?
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Rhodes will be a semi-typical FS. He will get some blitz calls, and if scheme dictates, should get some INT's. The majority of his tackles will come downfield a ways, I suspect. Whoever the SS is, will, or at least should put up good tackle numbers, and do some run blitzing and be up in the box a lot, very similar to Rodney Harrison's role in NE. I happen to think that Smith is better suited to that position than Coleman is, but that is yet to be determined.... Coleman has missed a lot of camp, and Smith is getting all the first team snaps. Add the fact that in Coleman's absence, Rhodes has taken over the play calling in the D backfield, that makes Coleman's spot that much more tentative as a starter. He really didn't need that apendectomy. (from a footbal standpoint)Coleman had returned to limited practice duties last week, but I'm not sure if he's ready for full practice. I had planned to go to TC today, but after seeing the news that Barlow was given the day off, decided to go tomorrow instead, the last day of "open to the public" practices. Strait, as far as I know, has only gotten snaps in the preseason games at SS. Rumor is, Cleveland is still interested in Strait, their DB's are banged up. I think he's being showcased. Rhodes appears to be a CS favorite, and looks to be solidly entrenched at FS, but also has the size to swap out to SS in situations.In standard scoring leagues, I think Rhodes is the better, and safer FF value. He's become the leader of the D backfield. In a new league dynasty draft, we gave him the longest contract of all the DB's we drafted (co-owned team). Mangini wants his players prepared to move around... so Rhodes could play as much SS as he does FS. In fact, Mangini has had him take some reps at CB as well, but I highly doubt that will happen in a game. Either way, he's estabished himself as THE guy in the D backfield.... the only one that is a lock for every down.
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Thanks for the feedback. It seems like the change in scheme should not have a significant impact up or down for Rhodes.
 
Vilma is still the best player on the Jet defense. He's the most likely to make plays, even if the sledding is more difficult in the 3-4 at times.

Certainly have our eyes on him though.

 
I don't think the very under rated Jets D stays on the filed a whole lot today.... and I don't mean because the offense will hold the ball..... I think the Titans will suffer a lot of 3 and outs today.

 
Vilma had a fine day, but is he realistically still the #1 LB in the NFL in this new defense? In one of my "fun" leagues Fletcher is still available and I'm wondering if I should drop Vilma. Boy, I never thought I'd say those words.

 
mektarus said:
Vilma had a fine day, but is he realistically still the #1 LB in the NFL in this new defense? In one of my "fun" leagues Fletcher is still available and I'm wondering if I should drop Vilma. Boy, I never thought I'd say those words.
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The most important part of roster management during the season's first month is knowing when to act and when to react. Look a little deeper at both boxscores and notice the difference in the flows of each game. Dropping Vilma for Fletcher is a mistake, IMO. Not a huge one, but still a mistake.
 
Rovers said:
Just owning up here.... Vilma had a nice stat line.....
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I didn't watch the game, but the Gamebook shows that they started in a 4-3. KVO and Robertson inside, Ellis and Thomas on the ends. Does anyone know how much 4-3 v. 3-4 they played?
 
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They almost always show a 5-2 front. What they do after that is anyone's guess. They do usually send four on passing plays, most of the time it's Bryan Thomas, but Hobson went a few times too, from the two OLB spots. The depth chart and the gamebook starters info doesn't mean much on this defense.

 
Rovers said:
They almost always show a 5-2 front. What they do after that is anyone's guess. They do usually send four on passing plays, most of the time it's Bryan Thomas, but Hobson went a few times too, from the two OLB spots. The depth chart and the gamebook starters info doesn't mean much on this defense.
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I've been waiting to see how NFL gamebook would list Thomas once the season began. With him being listed as a DE, he should be a nice play. NYJ official website depth chart and Ourlads also list him as DE. Burnt one of my limited FA moves for him, hope it pans out.
 
Rozelle said:
Rovers said:
They almost always show a 5-2 front. What they do after that is anyone's guess. They do usually send four on passing plays, most of the time it's Bryan Thomas, but Hobson went a few times too, from the two OLB spots. The depth chart and the gamebook starters info doesn't mean much on this defense.
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I've been waiting to see how NFL gamebook would list Thomas once the season began. With him being listed as a DE, he should be a nice play. NYJ official website depth chart and Ourlads also list him as DE. Burnt one of my limited FA moves for him, hope it pans out.
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If he remains listed as a DE.... you've struck gold. Ellis on Dallas is in a similar situation. These hybrid defenses are IMO, a problem..... Ellis and Thomas are OLB's. In the meantime, I will take advantage of the situation.... to do otherwise would be negligent.
 
Rovers said:
Rozelle said:
Rovers said:
They almost always show a 5-2 front. What they do after that is anyone's guess. They do usually send four on passing plays, most of the time it's Bryan Thomas, but Hobson went a few times too, from the two OLB spots. The depth chart and the gamebook starters info doesn't mean much on this defense.
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I've been waiting to see how NFL gamebook would list Thomas once the season began. With him being listed as a DE, he should be a nice play. NYJ official website depth chart and Ourlads also list him as DE. Burnt one of my limited FA moves for him, hope it pans out.
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If he remains listed as a DE.... you've struck gold. Ellis on Dallas is in a similar situation. These hybrid defenses are IMO, a problem..... Ellis and Thomas are OLB's. In the meantime, I will take advantage of the situation.... to do otherwise would be negligent.
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Hope so ... I was hoping you would reply, I understand your da-man when it comes to the Jets.
 
Admirable own up Rovers but this debate still has time to be decided. As a Vilma owner I was actually a little upset at his stat line ... which goes to show how spoiled I've become.

 
LOL.... yeah, he was freakin golden last year.... but he did blitz a few times on Sunday, and caused the second Collins INT.... ah that mighta been the Young INT... I forgot. Some LB's had stupid good weeks.... we'll have to see how it plays out. I still am pretty sure he'll not approach last year's sick numbers though....

 
Also a Jets homer and Rovers is pretty dead on. Vilma is not going to fall off the face of the map, but a decline is in order. Anybody who has watched all of the Jets action, I think, would agree.

Vilma is having to fight through a lot more trash than he was last year and he's struggling to disengage from that first level. Still too talented to not make plays, but if you're expecting anywhere near last year's numbers I think you're going to wind up disappointed.

 
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So, not to hijack the thread, you guys, but I have Vilma in a 10 team "family fun" league but Fletcher, M Peterson and Pierce are all available. Our scoring (in my signature) is very tackle heavy. Do you think that Vilma's tackles will drop below where any of these other guys are likely to be?

 
I think this week's game against Buffalo will tell us just where Vilma might fall in the overall scheme of things this year. The Jets should face a non-stop attack of Magahee all day. If Vilma hits double digit tackles, there might be some hope for him remaining in the top ten. If not.... my sell high prediction to obtain a starting RB for him looks like it will hold water (I said this right after Mangini was made HC).

I know I was scoffed at, but I still think Vilma is a better OLB in a 3-4 than an ILB. From the outside, he could wreck havoc with his speed and smarts, not to mention his coverage skills and ball hawking ability. As an ILB, it seems to me that his big play abilty is largely negated. I'd like to see Hobson at ILB, and Vilma on the outside. Vilma has said he still doesn't feel at home in the 3-4, but feels he's improving. He has many of the same tools as a Merriman.... not to the sick talent level of Merriman, but more than enough to be a game changer on the outside. I don't see Vilma as a game changer on the inside.

If only I were king..... and the HC of the NYJ! :excited:

 
Rovers said:
I know I was scoffed at, but I still think Vilma is a better OLB in a 3-4 than an ILB. From the outside, he could wreck havoc with his speed and smarts, not to mention his coverage skills and ball hawking ability. As an ILB, it seems to me that his big play abilty is largely negated. I'd like to see Hobson at ILB, and Vilma on the outside. Vilma has said he still doesn't feel at home in the 3-4, but feels he's improving. He has many of the same tools as a Merriman.... not to the sick talent level of Merriman, but more than enough to be a game changer on the outside. I don't see Vilma as a game changer on the inside. If only I were king..... and the HC of the NYJ! :excited:
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he would be engulfed by offensive tackles. can you find any other 3-4 OLBs in the league anywhere close to his size? a 3-4 OLB is more like a DE in a 4-3. if Vilma is too small to play ILB in a 3-4, moving him to OLB in a 3-4 is certainly not the answer.why can't Vilma be productive like Ray Lewis, Donnie Edwards, Tedy Bruschi, James Farrior and other LBs have been playing in a 3-4?
 
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I know this is a bit late but I'm still getting caught up on the DVR. Some takes on the Jets defense from Patriots-Jets game last Sunday.

The Jets defensive line needs to get better and quickThe Patriots handled the front three with three blockers the entire game. Shaun Ellis was double-teamed at times and Kimo held his own but the Pats controlled both NTs with a center the entire game. The guards were running downhill at Vilma and Barton on every play. Granted, the Patriots offensive line and tight ends are above average but the line play has to improve if the Jets expect to get off the field.

Vilma nearly always aligned on the weak side of the defenseThis is important for a couple of reasons. The money position in a 3-4 defense is the LILB, or to the strong side of the defense at ILB. The Patriots ran all kinds of two and three TE sets, but Barton was aligned to the strong side about 90% of the time. This is the first Jet game that I've seen, but I'd not noticed this before. Secondly, while Vilma did get off a fair number of blocks, he was still facing a guard despite aligning on the weak side of the defense due to the inability of the NT to command a double team. I was a little down on Vilma, but expected him to remain top five despite the scheme change. After watching the first three quarters of this game, I'm not so sure. Vilma will still be good -- somebody has to make these tackles no matter how far downfield they are -- but something's gotta give for him to have top value. I still think he's good enough to put up Farrior, Edwards, Davis numbers, but he won't until you see a Hampton, Williams, Washington in front of him.

Bryan Thomas doesn't look good in this schemeI was more disappointed with Thomas than Vilma. Thomas was routinely blocked by a tight end on rushing downs and wasn't aggressive at all in pass rush. He wasn't very efficient bumping TEs at the LOS, either, and when he dropped in coverage he looked to be out of position. At least once, he dropped blindly into a short zone already covered by a corner. I may be wrong here, but Thomas looked more out of place than anybody else on the defense. Could be the Pats 3 TE sets though and I just caught him in a bad matchup. The poor showing in run support is tough to ignore though.

Kerry Rhodes is more or less the strong safetyIt's really a shame that the gamebooks are still working off a 2005 depth chart template because this is clearly a totally new scheme. Against the Patriots, the Jets were clearly in a 3-4 the entire game. Marking Barton as an OLB when he aligned over the A gap on nearly every play is just bad. Likewise, Rhodes aligned to the strong side, not just the left side, and was often in-the-box. He was, as Rovers said in his preseason notes, often brought in run blitzes and in pass rush.

 
Jene Bramel said:
I know this is a bit late but I'm still getting caught up on the DVR. Some takes on the Jets defense from Patriots-Jets game last Sunday.

The Jets defensive line needs to get better and quickThe Patriots handled the front three with three blockers the entire game. Shaun Ellis was double-teamed at times and Kimo held his own but the Pats controlled both NTs with a center the entire game. The guards were running downhill at Vilma and Barton on every play. Granted, the Patriots offensive line and tight ends are above average but the line play has to improve if the Jets expect to get off the field.

Vilma nearly always aligned on the weak side of the defenseThis is important for a couple of reasons. The money position in a 3-4 defense is the LILB, or to the strong side of the defense at ILB. The Patriots ran all kinds of two and three TE sets, but Barton was aligned to the strong side about 90% of the time. This is the first Jet game that I've seen, but I'd not noticed this before. Secondly, while Vilma did get off a fair number of blocks, he was still facing a guard despite aligning on the weak side of the defense due to the inability of the NT to command a double team. I was a little down on Vilma, but expected him to remain top five despite the scheme change. After watching the first three quarters of this game, I'm not so sure. Vilma will still be good -- somebody has to make these tackles no matter how far downfield they are -- but something's gotta give for him to have top value. I still think he's good enough to put up Farrior, Edwards, Davis numbers, but he won't until you see a Hampton, Williams, Washington in front of him.

Bryan Thomas doesn't look good in this schemeI was more disappointed with Thomas than Vilma. Thomas was routinely blocked by a tight end on rushing downs and wasn't aggressive at all in pass rush. He wasn't very efficient bumping TEs at the LOS, either, and when he dropped in coverage he looked to be out of position. At least once, he dropped blindly into a short zone already covered by a corner. I may be wrong here, but Thomas looked more out of place than anybody else on the defense. Could be the Pats 3 TE sets though and I just caught him in a bad matchup. The poor showing in run support is tough to ignore though.

Kerry Rhodes is more or less the strong safetyIt's really a shame that the gamebooks are still working off a 2005 depth chart template because this is clearly a totally new scheme. Against the Patriots, the Jets were clearly in a 3-4 the entire game. Marking Barton as an OLB when he aligned over the A gap on nearly every play is just bad. Likewise, Rhodes aligned to the strong side, not just the left side, and was often in-the-box. He was, as Rovers said in his preseason notes, often brought in run blitzes and in pass rush.
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Does this mean that we can expect continued very high production from Rhodes?
 
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