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Today's HOF Candidate Poll: Mike Mussina (1 Viewer)

Will he?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Can't decide until career is over

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
Please See Mine

Please See Mine

Footballguy
Pro:

He is going to end up 17th in strikeouts for his career

He will probably be in the top 40 in wins for his career

Has a career ERA about a run lower than the league

Remarkably consistent

Con:

Never won 20 games

Never won a Cy Young (came in 2nd once)

Was he ever a truly dominant pitcher?

 
Black Ink: Pitching - 14 (150) (Average HOFer ≈ 40) Gray Ink: Pitching - 230 (28) (Average HOFer ≈ 185) HOF Standards: Pitching - 50.0 (36) (Average HOFer ≈ 50) HOF Monitor: Pitching - 109.0 (81) (Likely HOFer > 100)
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Please See Mine said:
Black Ink: Pitching - 14 (150) (Average HOFer ≈ 40) Gray Ink: Pitching - 230 (28) (Average HOFer ≈ 185) HOF Standards: Pitching - 50.0 (36) (Average HOFer ≈ 50) HOF Monitor: Pitching - 109.0 (81) (Likely HOFer > 100)
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:popcorn: Fringe guy but just not enough standout numbers to really get him in. Very good but not HOF material IMHO
 
I think Moose is in the Hall of Very, Very Good. Expectations were high for him and I don't think he ever quite reached them. As he stands now, I don't think he is in.....BUT if he pitches a couple of more years and pads his numbers a little....I think he is in by default. Let's face it though...he cannot pitch in the AL anymore.

EDITED TO ADD: FWIW.... Mussina has a better career winning %, WhiP, and more K's than Glavine and his ERA is 3.66 to Glavines 3.49. If Glavine makes it......I think current Moose (if he retires after this year) has to be given strong consideration.l

 
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Mussina has been my favorite pitcher since he came in the league. It pains me to say but he belongs in the Hall of Very Good and no more.

He's going to finish with some great numbers by the time he's through but not Hall worthy numbers IMO.

I somewhat discount the 20-win thing. In 1995 or 1996 he left the final game of the season up 2-1 after 8 innings. Armando Benitiz then gave up a game-tying homer and he finished at 19. That's not even the most painful event in his pursuit of 20 wins. In 1994 he was 16-5 and was a LOCK for 20. Heck, he had a shot at 25. Then the strike.

His playoff performances have been middling. Overlooked, however, is 1997 when he struck out 25 Cleveland batters in 15 innings. But snakebit similar to the 20-games thing, he lost both games because of lack of run support. His ERA in that series was 0.60.

Further overlooked was his series saving performance out of the 'pen (his first relief appearance ever) in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS against Boston. The Yanks were down 5-1 with no outs and runners on the corners in the fourth or fifth inning. Mussina strikes out the first guy and then gets the speedy Damon to ground into a doubleplay. The rest, as they say, is history, Mussina's performance again being overshadowed, this time by Aaron Boone's series clinching homer.

A couple personal comments: I started collecting autographs of athletes through the mail in the early 90s and continued for about 5 or 6 years. Mussina was one of the first to respond to one of my requests. :goodposting:

I was so thrilled to get his autograph, I immediately joined his fan club. I immediately got a standard thank you letter for joining and a couple other items. Then there was a span of 6 months that I got nothing. For kicks, I wrote to him to his hometown and mentioned this. Within 10 days, I got 2 different bundles of merchandise from the fan club. Coincidence? I don't think so.

 
Darth Cheney said:
I think Moose is in the Hall of Very, Very Good. Expectations were high for him and I don't think he ever quite reached them. As he stands now, I don't think he is in.....BUT if he pitches a couple of more years and pads his numbers a little....I think he is in by default. Let's face it though...he cannot pitch in the AL anymore.EDITED TO ADD: FWIW.... Mussina has a better career winning %, WhiP, and more K's than Glavine and his ERA is 3.66 to Glavines 3.49. If Glavine makes it......I think current Moose (if he retires after this year) has to be given strong consideration.l
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Yep, I voted to wait even though I think he falls short when it's all said and done. You bring up a good point about pitching in the AL. He's done that his entire career. You think his ERA would be lower than Glavine's if he pitched in the NL? You bet your sweet bippy. :thumbup: He got off to a rocky start this year but he's been solid his last 5 starts or so. Torre has said Mussina can basically pitch as long as he wants. He's got about 240 wins. If he goes 4 more years and gets 10 wins in each of those years, he's at 280 and the Hall door cracks open a little more. If he could add some postseason glory, maybe...But, still, probably not...
 
I put Moose in the Hall, but just barely. His career WHIP are very comperable to Smoltz and Clemens, two HOF locks. Mussina wasn't quite as dominant in terms of strikeouts as those two, but he was every bit as effective when you look objectively at his career. Over the course of one of the most insane hitter-friendly eras in the history of the game, he still managed to put up very solid numbers. He is also arguably the finest defensive pitcher of the past 30 years, winning 6 gold gloves.

 
No. He has been a very consistent player throughout his career, but he was never the best pitcher in the league at any point.

 
Darth Cheney said:
I think Moose is in the Hall of Very, Very Good. Expectations were high for him and I don't think he ever quite reached them. As he stands now, I don't think he is in.....BUT if he pitches a couple of more years and pads his numbers a little....I think he is in by default. Let's face it though...he cannot pitch in the AL anymore.

EDITED TO ADD: FWIW.... Mussina has a better career winning %, WhiP, and more K's than Glavine and his ERA is 3.66 to Glavines 3.49. If Glavine makes it......I think current Moose (if he retires after this year) has to be given strong consideration.l
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He had an excellent year in 2006. ERA+ of 125. He started terrible this year, but has lowered his ERA by 1.5 points in the last month. He certainly can still pitch in the AL.He is really close to being in the HOF. If he pitches 2 more years and doesn't completely implode, I think he is in.

 
Workhorse said:
I put Moose in the Hall, but just barely. His career WHIP are very comperable to Smoltz and Clemens, two HOF locks. Mussina wasn't quite as dominant in terms of strikeouts as those two, but he was every bit as effective when you look objectively at his career. Over the course of one of the most insane hitter-friendly eras in the history of the game, he still managed to put up very solid numbers. He is also arguably the finest defensive pitcher of the past 30 years, winning 6 gold gloves.
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Meh. Huge Yanks fan, and I've always love Moose. But, no way he's a HOFer.
 
One thing that stuck out to me looking at his stats from baseball reference was career earnings through 2006. $122 mill. Maddux was $133 mill. Unit was $143 mill. I think Clemens was a bit higher then Mussina. Arod was $147 mill.

Bonds was $172 mill.

Arod is probably $172 though 2007. He'll probably get a $200 mill offer over 8 years (Angels). $372 mill that is crazy.

 
Daywalker said:
One thing that stuck out to me looking at his stats from baseball reference was career earnings through 2006. $122 mill. Maddux was $133 mill. Unit was $143 mill. I think Clemens was a bit higher then Mussina. Arod was $147 mill.

Bonds was $172 mill.

Arod is probably $172 though 2007. He'll probably get a $200 mill offer over 8 years (Angels). $372 mill that is crazy.
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And the Yanks will still be blamed for the current "state" of the game.
 
I'd put him in the hall just because he went to a division rival, and even though they have been a favorite every year he's been there, he has not been able to win a championship. Moose=Mattingly???

 
Workhorse said:
I put Moose in the Hall, but just barely. His career WHIP are very comperable to Smoltz and Clemens, two HOF locks. Mussina wasn't quite as dominant in terms of strikeouts as those two, but he was every bit as effective when you look objectively at his career. Over the course of one of the most insane hitter-friendly eras in the history of the game, he still managed to put up very solid numbers. He is also arguably the finest defensive pitcher of the past 30 years, winning 6 gold gloves.
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I have a bunch of his rookie cards I'll sell ya.
 
Let's look how Moose compares to Schilling.... a pitcher who I think alot of people would vote into the HOF who wouldn't vote Moose in.

Moose better WP% (.634/.600), more wins (243/213), more shutouts (23/20),

Schill more K's (3086/2621), better ERA (3.46/3.66), better WHIP (1.139/1.179)

Neither has won an MVP or a Cy Young.

Schilling has won 20 three times/ Mussina never

Schilling is older (40/38)

Mussina has won 10 or more games 15 years in a row; Schilling has won 10 or more 10 times in his career.

I think what you have is a case of one pitcher (Mussina) maintaining a decent level of consistency for pretty much his entire career versus one who really made his bones since 2001.

Schilling has been injured more and took a bit more time to get started, while Mussina hit the ground running.

Schilling generally seems to have played for worse teams.

Schilling has obtained more playoff glory and has overall performed better in the playoffs.

I think as a compiler, if Mussina plays for a couple of more years and maintains a certain level (10-12 wins/ 140-150 K's/4-4.50 ERA/ he should get in.

 
When you look at pitchers of this era..... you have the sure-fire HOF starters: ( forgive me if I've missed anyone)

Greg Maddux

Randy Johnson

Tom Glavine

Curt Schilling ( who I'm on the fence with..but just about everyone else says he's in )

Pedro Martinez

John Smoltz

Then you have a group of pitchers who for various reasons (either several dominant years or through years of compiling stats) were good pitchers but not HOF material.

David Cone

Jimmy Key

David Wells

Kevin Brown

Dwight Gooden

Orel Hershiser

Jamie Moyer

Andy Pettite

Personally when I think back about pitchers of the 90's/00's, Mussina's name looks more at home with the first group.

 
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I actually think Mussina will make it, but don't think he should. 3 of the 4 HOF tracking stats on baseball-reference.com lean in Moose's favor (although marginally).

For me, while he's a solid pitcher, I just never felt that he made other teams think "Oh no! Not Mussina." To me that seems like a pretty good litmus test.

 
He'd be very well served by a career crowning acheivement - like a big WS performance or a Cy young win. His numbers overall are very good, but little dominance.

 
I actually like Mussina (even as a Red Sox fan)...always seemed like a class guy, tough competitor, very good pitcher.

But it would be nearly impossible to think he is hall of fame worthy. I do wonder if he would have had more consideration had he never left Baltimore. Reason being, he was perhaps a top 5-10 pitcher in the league when he left. Between 1992-2000 in Baltimore, he was top 6 in Cy Young voting 7 times, and was a 4 time all-star. You would expect when he left a mediocre team in the O's, and went to the powerhouse Yankees, he would parlay this into stud status. But instead, he only had one top 10 voting in the Cy Young award (6th place) in 7 years, and had zero all-star appearances. He has a losing post-season record, and was never really the ace of the Yankee staff that he was brought in to be.

I believe had he went to New York and had some great season, or memorable post season performances he would be in. I also believe had he stayed in Baltimore and put up 4-5 more solid years for a team that never really challenged for the post season, he would have had a better case. As it stands.........out.

 
Here's a question...

If Moose had stayed in Baltimore for his entire career would that have helped him? Yes, he would have less wins, but he would have been the standout ace of the staff for over a decade(assume other stats remain the same). I think going to NY he was over shadowed by Clemens, Pettite and Wells.

 
avoiding injuries said:
Here's a question...If Moose had stayed in Baltimore for his entire career would that have helped him? Yes, he would have less wins, but he would have been the standout ace of the staff for over a decade(assume other stats remain the same). I think going to NY he was over shadowed by Clemens, Pettite and Wells.
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I don't know. I thought those last couple of years in Baltimore he got some horrible run support. I remember when the Yanks signed him most of the Baltimore fans I know thought he was a lock to have a couple of 20 win seasons.
 
He did, which is why I said we'd have to deduct wins. Other than that, he'd be the glorified ace with very little pressure and would have been more of a standout on his team. What other category would his numbers drop? Heck, he'd probably get one of those no hitters had he stayed, greedy *******.

 
The Man from Laramie said:
I actually think Mussina will make it, but don't think he should. 3 of the 4 HOF tracking stats on baseball-reference.com lean in Moose's favor (although marginally).For me, while he's a solid pitcher, I just never felt that he made other teams think "Oh no! Not Mussina." To me that seems like a pretty good litmus test.
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He gets in but Blyleven is NOT in?Joke!
 
Jules Winnfield said:
The Man from Laramie said:
I actually think Mussina will make it, but don't think he should. 3 of the 4 HOF tracking stats on baseball-reference.com lean in Moose's favor (although marginally).For me, while he's a solid pitcher, I just never felt that he made other teams think "Oh no! Not Mussina." To me that seems like a pretty good litmus test.
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He gets in but Blyleven is NOT in?Joke!
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I shouldn't be telling you this.....but there is a very strong anti-Dutch sentiment flowing through the corridors of power in Cooperstown. You don't know how far the rabbit hole goes down. Are you sure you want to continue with this pro Blyleven agenda?
 
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