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tie breaker for playoffs (1 Viewer)

G

gagull

Footballguy
Currently our league's tie breakers are in the following order:

1) head-to-head

2) record in conference play (we're split into 2 conferences and play a conference heavy schedule)

3) total points

4)point difference in head to head meetings

I'm fine with head to head, but I've argued that total points should be next.

Is there a better way?

 
Total points should be next, followed by conference record, then head to head points, then total points against

 
i always contend that total points should be FIRST tie-breaker. there is so much luck involved in fantasy football, that total points sways the arrow more towards the skill aspect. (i.e. middle round drafting, waiver wire, prospecting)

like in some of these other threads , you may have a juggernaut of a team but due to scheduling you end up playing the top scorer for the week after the dust settles and you are sitting with the second best total for the week. It's happened numerous times to me. total points is more of a gauge for how good a team is .

i would hate to lose a playoff spot when i have the same record as another guy but have outscored his team by over 200 points for the year, and i played him once in week 7 and lost when i had Warner, Fitzgerald and M Turner on bye.

 
CD Dragon said:
i always contend that total points should be FIRST tie-breaker. there is so much luck involved in fantasy football, that total points sways the arrow more towards the skill aspect. (i.e. middle round drafting, waiver wire, prospecting)like in some of these other threads , you may have a juggernaut of a team but due to scheduling you end up playing the top scorer for the week after the dust settles and you are sitting with the second best total for the week. It's happened numerous times to me. total points is more of a gauge for how good a team is . i would hate to lose a playoff spot when i have the same record as another guy but have outscored his team by over 200 points for the year, and i played him once in week 7 and lost when i had Warner, Fitzgerald and M Turner on bye.
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I've been Commish of my league for 8 years now ($150.00 buy in, 12 Teams) and this is exactly how and why I have total points as the first tie breaker vs. head to head. There is some grumbling from one long time player about changing to head to head, but I am firm on the ruling. :popcorn:
 
total points without a doubt...and the guy with the most total points had the best team..records are a lot luck, total points aren't.

 
CD Dragon said:
i always contend that total points should be FIRST tie-breaker. there is so much luck involved in fantasy football, that total points sways the arrow more towards the skill aspect.
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This is exactly what I came in here to post. Any answer other than "points for" is just goofy IMO.
 
I dislike using total points. Its certainly more accurate to use total points but its a hell of a lot more entertaining to make things like head-to-head records matter. Its not as fun to sit there in the final weekend thinking about how many points you need to outscore the other team by. Just feels too sterile. This is about having fun.

 
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gagull said:
Currently our league's tie breakers are in the following order:1) head-to-head2) record in conference play (we're split into 2 conferences and play a conference heavy schedule)3) total points4)point difference in head to head meetingsI'm fine with head to head, but I've argued that total points should be next. Is there a better way?
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No. Conference/Division record should ONLY be used to break ties between teams IN THE SAME DIVISION.
 
My leagues that I commish follow the NFL tiebreaking rules adapted to our league format (12 teams, 3 divisions, no conferences).

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

In Division:

1. Head to head

2. Division record

3. Record among common opponents

4. Total points for

5. Total touchdowns

6. Coin flip

Out of Division:

1. Head to head

2. Record among common opponents

3. Total points for

4. Total touchdowns

5. Coin flip

Anyone arguing that Points For should be the first and only tie break shouldn't be playing in a head-head format. Just accumulate points all season if that is your measure of success.

 
I think all play record is a slightly better judge of who the best team is than total points. Often total points will be relatively close among teams tied and is the best team (for example) the one who scored 1202 compared to the one that scored 1197?

All Play record is better b/c the league is head to head and head to head victories are what matters. You need the points for H2H wins, but what about the week when you scored 130 when the next best score was 105? There are 25 points that were absolutely meaningless, although they show you have a good team. All play record is best b/c it takes total points into consideration and measures it on a week to week basis against all the teams in the league.

What I think is even better than All Play record against the entire league is if you do All Play record just for the teams involved in the tiebreaker. Just take their points for every week of the season, compare them and see what the final record is in those mythical games.

I would guess that 80% of the time, total points and All Play record end up with the same result but it's those times when totals points are within a point or two a game that All Play truly shows who the best team was that season.

 
Tiebreak for Division winners:

Head to Head

Division record

Total points

Tiebreak for wildcards:

Total points

Head to Head, with multiple resolution if more than 2 way ties

coin flip

My thinking has always been... If you play head to head all year, then your record should be what gets you to the playoffs, not points. I have been hounded by one owner to have total points determine the wildcard teams outright, regardless of records, which is even worse.

IMO, if you play divisions and an unbalanced schedule for the divisions, you really should allow those division games to have a significant impact on who makes the playoffs from that division. The cross division wildcards I like using the total points tiebreak, partially because its easier, partially because it shuts up some of the total point fanatics, and partially because I think balances the playoffs better.

 
I've been fighting to get mine changed since last year.

I never even looked at the tiebreaker until it cost me.

I went 12-1 through the first 13 weeks.

Won the 1st round handily

Tied in the 2nd round. 1st tiebreaker is H2h-I played the guy twice and we split.

2nd tiebreaker is QB points. Peyton scored one more than Palmer...I lost.

Seriously though, QB points?!

Just don't ever use that, and you'll be 2 steps ahead of my league.

 
Like every other rule, any league can do whatever you please for whatever reason you like. I understand the desire for rewarding the better teams, and it truly stinks to be leading the entire league by some huge number of points but run into a murderous schedule and end up out of the playoffs. Even so, I prefer the answers below:

Die said:
I dislike using total points. Its certainly more accurate to use total points but its a hell of a lot more entertaining to make things like head-to-head records matter. Its not as fun to sit there in the final weekend thinking about how many points you need to outscore the other team by. Just feels too sterile. This is about having fun.
Click to expand...
What a concept! FF as fun.
puckalicious said:
My leagues that I commish follow the NFL tiebreaking rules adapted to our league format (12 teams, 3 divisions, no conferences).

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

In Division:

1. Head to head

2. Division record

3. Record among common opponents

4. Total points for

5. Total touchdowns

6. Coin flip

Out of Division:

1. Head to head

2. Record among common opponents

3. Total points for

4. Total touchdowns

5. Coin flip

Anyone arguing that Points For should be the first and only tie break shouldn't be playing in a head-head format. Just accumulate points all season if that is your measure of success.
Click to expand...
It all depends on how far your league wishes to emulate the NFL. I have always attempted to emulate the NFL to a reasonable extent, and frankly it is more interesting and somehow more fitting to me when the tiebreaks work that way. But that's me. Others are obviously different.A compromise solution to total points lovers is to use NFL tiebreakers or a variation thereof to place n-1 teams (where n is the total number of playoff teams) but then add a final team to the mix by selecting the highest total points scoring team out of the remaining (non-playoff) teams, regardless of record and all other tiebreakers.

 
gagull said:
tie breaker for playoffs, what's most fair?
Click to expand...
Is what's most fair relevant? Is our fairness goodening?Your post seems to imply that the pursuit of fairness should be the guiding principal behind your fantasy league rules. This is not a given. Think long and hard before you accept fairness as a guiding principle. It is a slippery slope of lunacy. At the bottom of said slope is a ponts league in which everybody wins. After all, it's only fair.

No set of rules is completely fair.

"Fairness" is a concept introduced and championed by losers throughout the world of fantasy sports. Don't be that loser.

 
Every year we get a bunch of posts from people who use H2H as a tie-breaker trying to determine who really made the playoffs. That's fun.

FF should be fun, but it shouldn't be completely random. H2H is random. Points and all-play aren't.

 
At this point, I feel obligated to enter my annual "this is why I recommend playing at least two if not three formats in leagues I commish" post.

I like both the emulation of the NFL in terms of head-to-head and all that it entails, but I have seen all too often that the best teams don't even make the playoffs or at least the championship game, and while that is occasionally the case in the NFL, it is not common (at least missing the playoffs, since the last three champions have been a #6, #3 and #6 seed in their respective conferences). Why not be both FUN and FAIR (as some have posted above)?

Anywho, why restrict yourself to one or the other. Take the best of both worlds and divide your winnings among:

1. Pure Head-to-Head format

2. Season Total Points format

I also recommend a third element, weekly total points winnings, which keeps the season interesting for teams out of the playoffs and low in total points which all but eliminates deadbeat owners.

So either go with the two format league above, or go and add:

3. Weekly Total Points format

If you've never participated in a three-format league, you might find you greatly enjoy it.

Until 2009...

 
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CD Dragon said:
i always contend that total points should be FIRST tie-breaker. there is so much luck involved in fantasy football, that total points sways the arrow more towards the skill aspect. (i.e. middle round drafting, waiver wire, prospecting)like in some of these other threads , you may have a juggernaut of a team but due to scheduling you end up playing the top scorer for the week after the dust settles and you are sitting with the second best total for the week. It's happened numerous times to me. total points is more of a gauge for how good a team is . i would hate to lose a playoff spot when i have the same record as another guy but have outscored his team by over 200 points for the year, and i played him once in week 7 and lost when i had Warner, Fitzgerald and M Turner on bye.
Click to expand...
:bag: same here..... points THEN head to head....why should you get in based oh head to head when matchups/byes can make 2 pretty even teams a lopsided game 1 week ( and lopsided the other way if played on a different week ) Total points spreads out the variance over 13-14 weeks so total points gives a better guage for which team is actually the best. In actual football and the 2 teams actually physically PLAY each other then Hto H is the bettr guage.... but not in FF.
 
The Jerk said:
At this point, I feel obligated to enter my annual "this is why I recommend playing at least two if not three formats in leagues I commish" post.I like both the emulation of the NFL in terms of head-to-head and all that it entails, but I have seen all too often that the best teams don't even make the playoffs or at least the championship game, and while that is occasionally the case in the NFL, it is not common (at least missing the playoffs, since the last three champions have been a #6, #3 and #6 seed in their respective conferences). Why not be both FUN and FAIR (as some have posted above)?Anywho, why restrict yourself to one or the other. Take the best of both worlds and divide your winnings among:1. Pure Head-to-Head format2. Season Total Points formatI also recommend a third element, weekly total points winnings, which keeps the season interesting for teams out of the playoffs and low in total points which all but eliminates deadbeat owners.So either go with the two format league above, or go and add:3. Weekly Total Points formatIf you've never participated in a three-format league, you might find you greatly enjoy it.Until 2009...
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INTERESTING....My league is set up such that : Best record on the year gets part ofthe poolweekly high scorer gets part of the poolplayoffs are set such that the top 6 seeds for the palyoffs are based on record and the last 2 seeds are based on total points irreguardless of head to head records. We changed the last 2 spots to total points the year after the team qith the 3rd most points failed to be 1 of the 8 playoff teams. I think we have the best of both worlds covered. This year thus far a team tied for second place has the second FEWEST points scored on the year. Still he is in a position, should he lose out, to fall completely out of the playoffs should he lose the rest of his games.... Things change quick in our league. With the 2 DIFFERENT ways to make the playoffs, the last week games are extremely exciting. Figuring out the complete playoff scenaio before the last week is pretty fun/maddening with all the possibilities.
 
our league switched this year after a vote (i voted no) from having total points for as the first tie-breaker to the following:

1) Head-to-head

2) Division Record

3) Total points for

4) Most points against (basically strength of schedule)

Incredibly in my division, it's still possible for all 5 teams to tie, leading to a total of 26 possible ties. Luckily the last of the division games was this week so I was able to work 'em all out for fun.

-QG

 
I recommend -

1. Head to Head

2. Total Points

3. Head to head Point Differential

4. Overall Point differential

5. Coin flip

The problem with 3 and 4 is that luck has a lot to do with who you play on a given week and one team could face a buzzsaw schedule while the other faces a soft schedule. What you can control is what lineup yoyu trot out each week, so I prefer using PF versus PA. One you can somewhat control, the other you can't.

 
Mr. Know-It-All said:
I recommend -1. Head to Head2. Total Points3. Head to head Point Differential4. Overall Point differential5. Coin flipThe problem with 3 and 4 is that luck has a lot to do with who you play on a given week and one team could face a buzzsaw schedule while the other faces a soft schedule. What you can control is what lineup yoyu trot out each week, so I prefer using PF versus PA. One you can somewhat control, the other you can't.
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What are your thoughts on All Play record?
 
' said:
I think all play record is a slightly better judge of who the best team is than total points. Often total points will be relatively close among teams tied and is the best team (for example) the one who scored 1202 compared to the one that scored 1197?All Play record is better b/c the league is head to head and head to head victories are what matters. You need the points for H2H wins, but what about the week when you scored 130 when the next best score was 105? There are 25 points that were absolutely meaningless, although they show you have a good team. All play record is best b/c it takes total points into consideration and measures it on a week to week basis against all the teams in the league.What I think is even better than All Play record against the entire league is if you do All Play record just for the teams involved in the tiebreaker. Just take their points for every week of the season, compare them and see what the final record is in those mythical games.I would guess that 80% of the time, total points and All Play record end up with the same result but it's those times when totals points are within a point or two a game that All Play truly shows who the best team was that season.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:Great post. I was going to post something similar. I'd say it should go like this:1. Total record.2. All play record between tied teams. Could potentially add weighting to this system, like 2x or 3x weight for the actual head to head matchups that were played, but this is more fair than straight head to head, due to timing of bye weeks, injuries, etc.3. Points For.4. Points Against. Higher is better in this case, since it implies it was harder to make it.I don't see how teams could be tied through all those criteria.
 
My suggestion would be

0. Record

1. Total points - least random event

2. All-Play/Breakdown - great measurement of week to week strength

3. Head to head all-play

4. coin flip

I would argue that total points is slightly better than all-play because getting high score by 50 points > getting high score by 1 point, although both count as 12-0 in all-play.

 
FlapJacks said:
I would argue that total points is slightly better than all-play because getting high score by 50 points > getting high score by 1 point, although both count as 12-0 in all-play.
Click to expand...
I disagree with that argument. I think the two are one and the same only b/c the league decided that it would use H2H as its format for deciding who wins and loses games. I see All Play record as just going one level deeper than the normal H2H schedule already set up for teams. The regular H2H schedule is completely random & fluky at time in its results, but All Play is not as it is a fair and balanced measure of pitting 1 or more teams against one another.Total Points isn't bad, I just see All Play as being a more accurate judge of team value in a H2H league. The one place Total Points fails is it overvalues both horrible and tremendous weeks by teams, while All Play limits the values to, say 11-0 and 0-11 for a 12-team league.We are kind of splitting hairs here as the two are both good. I was all for Total Points several years ago until my mathematical mind allowed me to see the light. It all depends on your perspective of what a H2H league should be judging. I just think that H2H leagues should take it to the next level of H2H with All Play, while I would view as Total Points as the 3rd tiebreaker after H2H and All Play have been exhausted.
 
:contrarian:

we use H-2-H as the first tie break ( to keep things "balanced", we are a group of 14 team leagues, playing a perfectly balanced 13 games schedule--each team faces the others once and only once)...

I've listened to all the hub-hub about points for, all play, etc

my question is...why play a H-2-H schedule, if total points are the be-all, end-all? why not just have the league be a total points league?

and who ever asked about a 3-way tie, just look at the games between the 3...if 1-1 between each, then use whatever tiebreak rule #2 is(ours is "points for")

if one of the three goes 2-0 amongst the teams tied, well then, there you have it!

 
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' said:
Mr. Know-It-All said:
I recommend -1. Head to Head2. Total Points3. Head to head Point Differential4. Overall Point differential5. Coin flipThe problem with 3 and 4 is that luck has a lot to do with who you play on a given week and one team could face a buzzsaw schedule while the other faces a soft schedule. What you can control is what lineup yoyu trot out each week, so I prefer using PF versus PA. One you can somewhat control, the other you can't.
Click to expand...
What are your thoughts on All Play record?
Click to expand...
ACTUALLY, THAT MIGHT BE A GREAT FIRST TIE BREAKER. That takes luck out of the equation. This is the first year I have used a site that tracks all play. That is a GREAT tiebreaker.
 
ravnzfan said:
:contrarian:we use H-2-H as the first tie break ( to keep things "balanced", we are a group of 14 team leagues, playing a perfectly balanced 13 games schedule--each team faces the others once and only once)...I've listened to all the hub-hub about points for, all play, etcmy question is...why play a H-2-H schedule, if total points are the be-all, end-all? why not just have the league be a total points league?
Click to expand...
The reason to play a head to head schedule IMO is that it creates the most fun and excitement week to week. You are able to track your players vs. your single opponent's players, which makes watching games in a given week much more fun (as compared to say, just compiling total points on the season, or even playing multiple opponents each week, where it is harder to track everyone). The fact that luck is involved helps over the course of the season, because (a) it creates some unexpected results and (b) it provides the "any given Sunday" effect, which keeps teams who are out of the playoff race interested. The head to head format also makes for more (hopefully good natured) trash talking between opponents, and also creates more interesting strategy questions, since your next matchup(s) might influence free agent, trade, and/or lineup decisions. So I love head to head format.All that said, I'm not sure that has much to do with what makes the most sense for tiebreakers. It depends on your goal for tiebreakers. Do you want them to reward the best team in a given tie? If so, then head to head as the first tiebreaker is clearly inferior to both total points and any variation of all play record. If you want tiebreakers to mimic the NFL, or to be based in larger part on luck than on merit, then head to head is a fit.I don't see valuing head to head format highly and at the same time wanting tiebreakers to reward the best team in a tie as being inconsistent at all. I value each of those things for different reasons.
 
CD Dragon said:
i always contend that total points should be FIRST tie-breaker. there is so much luck involved in fantasy football, that total points sways the arrow more towards the skill aspect. (i.e. middle round drafting, waiver wire, prospecting)like in some of these other threads , you may have a juggernaut of a team but due to scheduling you end up playing the top scorer for the week after the dust settles and you are sitting with the second best total for the week. It's happened numerous times to me. total points is more of a gauge for how good a team is . i would hate to lose a playoff spot when i have the same record as another guy but have outscored his team by over 200 points for the year, and i played him once in week 7 and lost when i had Warner, Fitzgerald and M Turner on bye.
Click to expand...
actually i dont even use head to head.my first is 1) most points forif still tied, then 2) most points againstmy reasoning is, obviously the better team would have a smaller room for error week to week , on average, if more points were scored against him. Hence, it reflects the coaching aspect as being rewarded. if you average 100 pts a game, it is easier to attain a better record if your opponents average 78 pts a game, as opposed to averaging 93 pts a game.my 3rd tiebreaker would be 3) record resulting in allplay ONLY between the two teams involved.after 13 weeks , imagine both teams played each other every week. one team ends up 8-5 then the other is 5-8. simple !
 
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