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Why do we need politicians to vote? (1 Viewer)

IC FBGCav

Footballguy
This is an antiquated concept. Having politicians vote.

Have the politicians bring the issues up for vote and the guess what? Let the people vote. How do you vote you ask? How will they know it is you, you ask? The same way the IRS does. SSI#, AGI from previous year, DOB........probably too simple and makes too much sense.

On a state level...........well do the same thing.

Right NOW we are not a "government for the people, by the people, for the people"

 
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If there's one thing I've learned from the various "voter ID" threads, it's that a large proportion of the electorate is apparently incapable of navigating their lives. My faith in democracy is lower thanks to reading some of the sob stories in those threads.

 
Letting the people vote is a terrible idea. Look at California, which is run this way. The Proposition system here means any substantial issue is decided by the voters on Election day instead of by their representatives. Guess what... the people always vote for massively expensive programs which give them benefits, then vote against tax increases on themselves to pay for it.

We got suckered into voting to pay to build the same hospital, twice, in consecutive elections, because the voters forgot they already OK'd the deal once before. We got suckered into paying a real estate developer millions to make cosmetic improvements to his own property because it was the secret lion's share of a proposition to send thousands of dollars to a shelter. We keep voting to pay to construct sections of a high-speed rail system between towns that have low populations and don't connect to other sections, for a style of train that has not been invented yet. The people voted to pay thirty billion dollars, billion-with-a-B-billion, to build a center for one and only one type of medical research, because it was tied into legalizing that kind of research and it had been in the news a lot and people were fired up about it, while completely ignoring the questions of 1) do we have $30billion dollars to spend, and 2) is using it for just one kind of research the best idea we have to spend it on? Instead of considering things, like, the fact that we're $15billion in debt, or maybe instead of giving all that cash to a pharmaceutical company to do one specific unproven kind of research, it would have been better spent building the best medical college and/or research hospital in the world?

The people don't care. They can't be tasked to figure this stuff out. They do not have the time to dedicate to these decisions, which is why we elect representatives. The average person care barely name the state's capital. Forget asking them how to divvy up the state's revenue wisely. Most don't know if the state has a surplus or a debt. They are not educated enough to responsibly decide.

 
Personally I'd like to see a rule that says all members of Congress have to appear together and debate every law while there is a quorum in the room.

The scene of Congressmen reading out loud to an empty chamber can really make a mockery of democracy.

 
Sarnoff said:
Letting the people vote is a terrible idea. Look at California, which is run this way. The Proposition system here means any substantial issue is decided by the voters on Election day instead of by their representatives. Guess what... the people always vote for massively expensive programs which give them benefits, then vote against tax increases on themselves to pay for it.
Yeah, that's totally different from politicians. ;)

Voters and politicians both can be counted on to act suboptimally in lots of ways if the system lets them. The question is what kind of constraints we can place on their powers in order to minimize the badness of their actions.

It's not obvious to me that politicians are easier to constrain than citizens. Whatever bills we can prohibit legislatures from introducing, we can just as easily prohibit in the form of plebiscites, no?

You list a lot of stupid propositions that passed. One could just as easily list a lot of stupid legislative enactments. That, by itself, is not a good reason to favor either style of lawmaking over the other, IMO. (There are, after all, good laws that are more likely to be passed by common voters than by politicians -- such as decriminalizing pot.)

Is there a theoretical or empirical reason to think that common voters will be less responsible, when it comes to issues of public debt, than politicians are? Perhaps the answer is yes, but I'm not familiar with any research in this area, and I wouldn't take an affirmative answer for granted.

Is there a theoretical or empirical reason to think that common voters will be less susceptible to special interests than politicians are? Again, I'm not familiar with any research in this area. It's possible that the Mormons were successful in getting California Proposition 8 (banning gay marriage) passed by spending a zillion dollars on it. But in general, it seems that big campaign contributions -- and lobbyists in general -- are more likely to affect politicians than common voters.

I think there may be advantages to direct voting over indirect representation that are worth taking seriously. There are disadvantages as well, but perhaps those can be dealt with effectively. One disadvantage, for example, is organizational -- getting common citizens to vote on stuff all the time is a big hassle. But technology might overcome that if voting on laws can be made as easy as liking something on facebook. Another disadvantage is that common voters are generally pretty uninformed about lots of stuff that legislators can take the time to understand. Perhaps technology can overcome that as well, in the form of prediction markets. And so on...

In other words, I wouldn't ignore the possibility that technology can improve the way we do politics just because the way things have always been done is the way they've always been done. Tradition is fine, but let's be open to potential improvements as well.

 
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Sarnoff said:
Letting the people vote is a terrible idea. Look at California, which is run this way. The Proposition system here means any substantial issue is decided by the voters on Election day instead of by their representatives. Guess what... the people always vote for massively expensive programs which give them benefits, then vote against tax increases on themselves to pay for it.
Yeah, that's totally different from politicians. ;)

Voters and politicians both can be counted on to act suboptimally in lots of ways if the system lets them. The question is what kind of constraints we can place on their powers in order to minimize the badness of their actions.
This is what I was going to say.

You'd need a very well-informed electorate in order to make this system actually work.

Benjamin Barber talks a lot about actually doing this in his book, Strong Democracy. He talks about having televised Town Hall meetings that everyone could watch at home and that it would be relatively simply to disseminate information. Unfortunately, I doubt the majority would really absorb or use this information

 
Sarnoff said:
Letting the people vote is a terrible idea. Look at California, which is run this way. The Proposition system here means any substantial issue is decided by the voters on Election day instead of by their representatives. Guess what... the people always vote for massively expensive programs which give them benefits, then vote against tax increases on themselves to pay for it.
Yeah, that's totally different from politicians. ;)

Voters and politicians both can be counted on to act suboptimally in lots of ways if the system lets them. The question is what kind of constraints we can place on their powers in order to minimize the badness of their actions.
This is what I was going to say.

You'd need a very well-informed electorate in order to make this system actually work.

Benjamin Barber talks a lot about actually doing this in his book, Strong Democracy. He talks about having televised Town Hall meetings that everyone could watch at home and that it would be relatively simply to disseminate information. Unfortunately, I doubt the majority would really absorb or use this information
I view representatives as, well, my representative. I'm paying them to outsource the job of having to know all about tax revenues, expenditure rates, bond market issues, bridge construction, 50-year-amortizations, long term debt planning, population forecasts, etc. so I don't have to take a master's level course in civic management to vote on something. I'm paying them to do it for me. They're my employee.

 
Who is proposing the laws the people are voting on? When are the people finding time for all the research and voting?

 
Public financing of federal elections with lots of mandatory Town Halls and debates over the public airwaves that every network and cable news org had to carry would really improve the public discourse and information level, in my opinion.

 
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Public financing of federal elections with lots of mandatory Town Halls and debates over the public airwaves that every network and cable news org had to carry would really help the public debate and information level, in my opinion.
There's like 5,000 bills voted on nationally each year. Add in state and local, no way people can keep up.

 
Public financing of federal elections with lots of mandatory Town Halls and debates over the public airwaves that every network and cable news org had to carry would really help the public debate and information level, in my opinion.
There's like 5,000 bills voted on nationally each year. Add in state and local, no way people can keep up.
I know, thats why I said public financing of federal elections.

 
Public financing of federal elections with lots of mandatory Town Halls and debates over the public airwaves that every network and cable news org had to carry would really help the public debate and information level, in my opinion.
There's like 5,000 bills voted on nationally each year. Add in state and local, no way people can keep up.
I know, thats why I said public financing of federal elections.
You didn't say not to have the citizens vote for state or local bills. Plus, 5,000 is still a massive amount.

 
Benjamin Barber talks a lot about actually doing this in his book, Strong Democracy. He talks about having televised Town Hall meetings that everyone could watch at home and that it would be relatively simply to disseminate information. Unfortunately, I doubt the majority would really absorb or use this information
You could appoint others to vote for you. You could assign your vote on some topics to your favorite economist, your vote on other topics to your favorite philanthropist, your vote on other topics to your favorite medical ethicist, and so on.

It wouldn't be that technologically complicated to keep an index of which people are voting by proxy for whom (and on which issues) -- and voters could change their proxies at any time.

 
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Benjamin Barber talks a lot about actually doing this in his book, Strong Democracy. He talks about having televised Town Hall meetings that everyone could watch at home and that it would be relatively simply to disseminate information. Unfortunately, I doubt the majority would really absorb or use this information
You could just appoint others to vote for you. You could assign your vote on some topics to your favorite economist, your vote on other topics to your favorite philanthropist, your vote on other topics to your favorite medical ethicist, and so on.

It wouldn't be that technologically complicated to keep an index of which people are voting by proxy for whom (and on which issues) -- and voters could change their proxies at any time.
I would love to run the House of Representatives this way. The interests of people in the modern US is not geographically based anymore. This made sense when a community was homogenous. But now I share little interests with what my neighbors care about. I don't live my life in just one Congressional district. I have a home in one, work in another, and spend most of my free time in a third. I would be better represented by a proxy I supported to manage my interests in all these areas.

So let's get rid of geographical House districts. Instead, let's divide the House up into seats where candidates get slots based on support. Any candidate who can get 500,000 people to sign their name as a supporter gets a seat. So I can choose to support someone who may live in my area, or in another state entirely, but he's the guy I pick to make my decisions for me. As long as he keeps 500,000 supporters, he's in DC. As soon as his support drops below, he's out.

Groups like the EFF could support slates of candidates better in this method, as they wouldn't have to get all of their supporters into a single geographic district to get someone they like elected. Just promote people they like and let them build support.

 
Sarnoff said:
Letting the people vote is a terrible idea. Look at California, which is run this way. The Proposition system here means any substantial issue is decided by the voters on Election day instead of by their representatives. Guess what... the people always vote for massively expensive programs which give them benefits, then vote against tax increases on themselves to pay for it.
Yeah, that's totally different from politicians. ;) Voters and politicians both can be counted on to act suboptimally in lots of ways if the system lets them. The question is what kind of constraints we can place on their powers in order to minimize the badness of their actions.
This is what I was going to say.

You'd need a very well-informed electorate in order to make this system actually work.

Benjamin Barber talks a lot about actually doing this in his book, Strong Democracy. He talks about having televised Town Hall meetings that everyone could watch at home and that it would be relatively simply to disseminate information. Unfortunately, I doubt the majority would really absorb or use this information
I view representatives as, well, my representative. I'm paying them to outsource the job of having to know all about tax revenues, expenditure rates, bond market issues, bridge construction, 50-year-amortizations, long term debt planning, population forecasts, etc. so I don't have to take a master's level course in civic management to vote on something. I'm paying them to do it for me. They're my employee.
They are not doing anything for you. They are doing what the lobbyists pay them to do. The political system is based on money and it is corrupt. Money is represented far more than citizens.
 
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So let's get rid of geographical House districts.
:goodposting:

Even if the technology isn't there yet to keep track of 300m people all switching their delegates on the fly, you could still keep the same every-two-year, ballot voting system and just allocate congressional seats proportionally by support, instead of geographically.

Added bonus: you'd completely eliminate gerrymandering.

 
Imagine juries sleeping through trials. Then at the last minute they wake up and listen to the prosecutor and defense give 30 second summaries. Then, without any further discussion, the jury votes.

That's a decent summary of how an INFORMED, educated public decided issues. For an uninformed, uneducated public, skip the trial altogether and flip a coin.

 
Imagine juries sleeping through trials. Then at the last minute they wake up and listen to the prosecutor and defense give 30 second summaries. Then, without any further discussion, the jury votes.

That's a decent summary of how an INFORMED, educated public decided issues. For an uninformed, uneducated public, skip the trial altogether and flip a coin.
Or you can have the state and the defendant make bribes to the jury and high bidder wins.

 

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