Saints being investigated for putting bounties on players (2 Viewers)

[Raiderfan32904]

So then, boys will be boys and this kind of behavior has always been and always will be. Probably exists even now on every NFL team, every college team, every HS team to some degree for different rewards. The bounty is just another skin, a sticker on the helmet, a trophy. Money is the only thing that makes this a damnable offense, right? Why even bother punishing anyone for this then? It's a non-issue. I mean if we aren't going to be hyprocritical that is.

I'm unsure with it being text whether you are being serious or facetious. It starts out seeming serious, but then I get to "Money is the only thing that makes this a damnable offense" when we're talking about a situation of unnecessarily injuring other human beings. So I'm assuming you're being facetious?

Facetious?, yeah sure, a little. Only cuz I'm mocking the hypocrisy. I'm glad you got back to the main crux of this issue. About causing unnecessary bodily harm. How objectionable is this offense, with the backdrop of players arguing for more safety protections amid the owners pushing for 18 game seasons? Isn't there a conflict of interest here? At the very least, the lines of right and wrong have been blurred. The NFL has an opportunity to send a message to their sport about what is expected of them in no uncertain terms. To fall back to the defense of "it's always been this way" should not be used if the NFL wants to clean up the game.

 

[RUSF18]

If there were no suspensions given for Spygate then I have a hard time justifying suspensions for Bountygate.

Still amazing to me that these are being compared against each other.

 

[GregR]

If there were no suspensions given for Spygate then I have a hard time justifying suspensions for Bountygate. There should be hefty fines commensurate with salaries and lost draft picks but suspensions seem much less likely since the offender is a Franchise. I guess if you can determine the highest position within the Saints organization that knew of the NFL warning but did nothing to stop it then that person could be suspended but would the impact be felt on the field. If Gregg Williams had been warned at previous coaching jobs and continued the practice in NO then he could be suspended following that logic. However, if Belichick didn't get suspended for Spygate then how can Payton be suspended for this.

I don't disagree with your statements comparing to lack of Spygate suspensions. But I don't think those arguments win out when it comes to weighing all the factors.Encouraging your employees to injure other employees is a different level than videotaping signals. That alone is enough reason to set new precedent.That said, it wouldn't floor me if there are either no suspensions, or just minor ones. I think being too unwilling to suspend people is a failing of Goodell's given the change in mindset he's trying to achieve. As Rodney Harrison said, fines don't matter to most players. Keeping them out of games is what matters.

 

[Banger]

If there were no suspensions given for Spygate then I have a hard time justifying suspensions for Bountygate. There should be hefty fines commensurate with salaries and lost draft picks but suspensions seem much less likely since the offender is a Franchise. I guess if you can determine the highest position within the Saints organization that knew of the NFL warning but did nothing to stop it then that person could be suspended but would the impact be felt on the field. If Gregg Williams had been warned at previous coaching jobs and continued the practice in NO then he could be suspended following that logic. However, if Belichick didn't get suspended for Spygate then how can Payton be suspended for this.

all gates aren't created equal. Videotaping a practice isn't in the same rhelm as targetting to injure NFL star players and paying them for it. One is a traffic ticket and the other is a criminal offense.

 

[GregR]

So then, boys will be boys and this kind of behavior has always been and always will be. Probably exists even now on every NFL team, every college team, every HS team to some degree for different rewards. The bounty is just another skin, a sticker on the helmet, a trophy. Money is the only thing that makes this a damnable offense, right? Why even bother punishing anyone for this then? It's a non-issue. I mean if we aren't going to be hyprocritical that is.

I'm unsure with it being text whether you are being serious or facetious. It starts out seeming serious, but then I get to "Money is the only thing that makes this a damnable offense" when we're talking about a situation of unnecessarily injuring other human beings. So I'm assuming you're being facetious?

Facetious?, yeah sure, a little. Only cuz I'm mocking the hypocrisy. I'm glad you got back to the main crux of this issue. About causing unnecessary bodily harm. How objectionable is this offense, with the backdrop of players arguing for more safety protections amid the owners pushing for 18 game seasons? Isn't there a conflict of interest here? At the very least, the lines of right and wrong have been blurred. The NFL has an opportunity to send a message to their sport about what is expected of them in no uncertain terms. To fall back to the defense of "it's always been this way" should not be used if the NFL wants to clean up the game.

I agree there's all sorts of hypocrisy going on. In retrospect I do think the 18 game season was perhaps more negotiating ploy than serious... just based on how the NFL didn't seem to put any effort into selling the benefits the players would see out of it. But I like the topic of the message the NFL needs to send.This issue is not about the Saints as an organization. It isn't about a media witch hunt. It is not about Goodell being on some power craze. It's about the NFL realizing that players are bigger, faster, and able to create more violence, and that leads to more serious injuries. Linebackers are bigger than offensive lineman used to be. The game of football needs to embrace a culture change where winning at all costs, especially the cost of unnecessary risks to health, is no longer acceptable.

Football can and will continue to be a game of hits and physical play. But players need to start using techniques that lessen the chance of serious injuries while still keeping the physical play that makes football the sport it is. The health consequences just of playing are serious enough without allowing head hunting, diving at knees, or hunting QBs when the hit has nothing to do with the play.

And there's no room at all for the mindset that trying to injure other players is acceptable. No matter how widespread or long-standing it was, the game needs to come that realization. I think the league has realized it, but it will be awhile before the message gets out to the players. And the coaches need to be the ones driving that change since the players will do whatever is needed to please the coach and get playing time.

I think some of the comments we've heard from sources in the league office suggest that is exactly the mindset the league has. From a PFT article:

“This is a seminal moment in the culture change we have to make,” a source close to Goodell said. “This has to stop now. Every team needs to hear the message that we’re in a different era now, where this appalling behavior is going to end.”

 

[Luke Skywalker]

This story makes the point I was making: The Saints were targeting Favre in NFC Championship game and it may have cost the Vikings a shot at the SB. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/07/favre-says-ref-apologized-for-missing-saints-hit-in-nfc-championship/

Any defense that doesn't target the other team's QB is stupid. It's by far the most effective way to handicap the opposing offense.I am stunned to see that anyone professing themself to be a fan of the sport who does not understand and accept this as a very basic part of the game.

 

[Amused to Death]

This story makes the point I was making: The Saints were targeting Favre in NFC Championship game and it may have cost the Vikings a shot at the SB. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/07/favre-says-ref-apologized-for-missing-saints-hit-in-nfc-championship/

Any defense that doesn't target the other team's QB is stupid. It's by far the most effective way to handicap the opposing offense.I am stunned to see that anyone professing themself to be a fan of the sport who does not understand and accept this as a very basic part of the game.

Do you think Goodell will in any way be motivated by the Saints lying to him? He told them to stop, they said they did, and they didn't. One of the reasons Goodell came down hard on Mike Vick was because he lied to the commish.Also something I don't think is stressed in this thread is the level of the "bounty". It was in part funded by a twice-convicted felon (Ornstein), and endorsed (allegedly) by the head coach - in writing! It was a very detailed system from what I've heard. Acutally unprecedented in its setup and organization. Other teams have had a bounty system, just not quite like this one. One that was told to stop and lied about it to the commish.It will continue to be a part of the NFL - just not this blatant.

 

[az_prof]

This story makes the point I was making: The Saints were targeting Favre in NFC Championship game and it may have cost the Vikings a shot at the SB. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/07/favre-says-ref-apologized-for-missing-saints-hit-in-nfc-championship/

Any defense that doesn't target the other team's QB is stupid. It's by far the most effective way to handicap the opposing offense.I am stunned to see that anyone professing themself to be a fan of the sport who does not understand and accept this as a very basic part of the game.

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more. Do you know what a bounty is? It is what the mafia does. For 10K you can have a man murdered. If the bounty and the violence that was triggered by it happened off of the football field, the people involved would be going to jail for aggravated assault and for conspiracy to commit assualt.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more.

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on regarding that game right now. Vikings fans must be delighted.

 

[GregR]

This story makes the point I was making: The Saints were targeting Favre in NFC Championship game and it may have cost the Vikings a shot at the SB.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/07/favre-says-ref-apologized-for-missing-saints-hit-in-nfc-championship/

Interesting part of that article I highlighted below:

Peter King of Sports Illustrated, who has been looking back on that game as he reports on the Saints’ bounty scandal, said today on the Dan Patrick Show that Favre told him referee Pete Morelli apologized for missing the call.

“Favre told me that Morelli apologized to him for not calling the high-low call that basically started this whole story, and caused Saints players on the sidelines, at least one, to be rejoicing and slapping hands and another one to say ‘We got him, we got him’ and another one to say, ‘Pay me my money,’” King said. “Morelli, by the way, through the league, denies telling that to Favre. . . . Favre said that Morelli apologized to him for missing that call, which was a blatant, horrible missed call, and Morelli denies it.”

If a Saints player was heard saying that after the hit, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what led to the allegations and the NFL investigation. I would think it would take something more than "We think they were trying to injure the QB" to get the NFL to conduct an actual investigation. A statement like that could have done it.

 

[Doug B]

I don't think your statement is factually correct about the NFL "sitting on this info for 2 years". They investigated it, and while they believed it was going on, they didn't have enough proof in 2010 to level punishment, so they told the Saints to stop and clean up anything of the sort.

Then in 2011 someone came forward and revealed the extent of what was going on, and the NFL went back in and found the evidence. At which point they had the evidence, and so informed the rest of the clubs of their finding at which point it hit the press.

FWIW: in the Darren Sharper interview that guderian linked to a few pages back, Sharper came out and said a disgruntled someone (my read-between-the-lines is Charles Grant) took info about the actual "cash for big plays" system, and then fabricated on top of it the "evidence" for alleged "injury bounties". Not sure how to jibe that with Gregg Williams' Friday apology (unless it was CYA lip service ), but that's the drum Sharper is beating.Something I've wondered about since I first heard about Vilma's rain-making -- just who was present when Vilma allegedly slapped $10,000 on the table for a Favre knock-out? Was it during a linebacker's meeting, say? Or was it in the presence of the entire defense? Was it right before the game, in the Dome locker-room? At the practice facility during the week? At a private occasion, say, at someone's home? There could be more plausible deniability out there for some players.

 

[Autumn Wind]

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more.

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on regarding that game right now. Vikings fans must be delighted.

I think someone hijacked your handle. The real Luke Skywalker swore he was done in this thread.

 

[guderian]

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more.

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on regarding that game right now. Vikings fans must be delighted.

Don't stop him he's rolling. I see he used the terms "mafia" and "murder" as I mentioned a few pages back, by page 20 it's going to be compared to the holocaust.

 

[az_prof]

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more.

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on regarding that game right now. Vikings fans must be delighted.

Open your eyes. The truth is out there.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPZCVCZNc50

 

[Doug B]

If a Saints player was heard saying that after the hit, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what led to the allegations and the NFL investigation. I would think it would take something more than "We think they were trying to injure the QB" to get the NFL to conduct an actual investigation. A statement like that could have done it.

Agree totally with the bolded. Brian Billick and many players have intimated as much -- that such an investigation gets nowhere without someone on the inside caving.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Do you think Goodell will in any way be motivated by the Saints lying to him?

I have said what seems like at least 15 or 20 times that I understand the reason the Saints will be disciplined and agree with it. They made their own bed and will lie in it.

 

[guderian]

Do you know what a bounty is? It is what the mafia does. For 10K you can have a man murdered. If the bounty and the violence that was triggered by it happened off of the football field, the people involved would be going to jail for aggravated assault and for conspiracy to commit assualt.

Drop the sanctimony. Everything that goes on during a football game would be considered assault if it happened off the football field. What's the difference between paying a player a salary to knock the crap out of someone or essentially betting on the same thing??? I know you're going to come back with "intent to injure", well if there was such an "intent" then why did a WSJ study reveal that the Saints were involved in only 18 injuries over a 54 game span? One injury per three games argues heavily against your "mafia" and "murder" "intent" mantra.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more.

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on regarding that game right now. Vikings fans must be delighted.

Open your eyes. The truth is out there.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPZCVCZNc50

I don't need youtube videos. I have the game on Blu-Ray and have watched it many, many times.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more.

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on regarding that game right now. Vikings fans must be delighted.

Open your eyes. The truth is out there.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPZCVCZNc50

Wow. I had forgotten just how bad some of those hits were.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more.

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on regarding that game right now. Vikings fans must be delighted.

Don't stop him he's rolling. I see he used the terms "mafia" and "murder" as I mentioned a few pages back, by page 20 it's going to be compared to the holocaust.

rabble rabble rabble! Mob mentality at its finest. I find it sad that so many are apparently incapable of any kind of critical thinking.

 

[az_prof]

Do you know what a bounty is? It is what the mafia does. For 10K you can have a man murdered. If the bounty and the violence that was triggered by it happened off of the football field, the people involved would be going to jail for aggravated assault and for conspiracy to commit assualt.

Drop the sanctimony. Everything that goes on during a football game would be considered assault if it happened off the football field. What's the difference between paying a player a salary to knock the crap out of someone or essentially betting on the same thing??? I know you're going to come back with "intent to injure", well if there was such an "intent" then why did a WSJ study reveal that the Saints were involved in only 18 injuries over a 54 game span? One injury per three games argues heavily against your "mafia" and "murder" "intent" mantra.

I was being descriptive of reality. If you pay someone to hurt someone that is called a "hit"; conspiracy to commit assualt. There is a big difference between playing hard, trying to force fumbles, trying to get INTs, trying to play physical, and deliberately trying to injure a player. The game film shows that throughout the Viking game the Saints not only hit hard, but hit late, hit high, hit low, and played outside the rules. Are you saying that had nothing to do with the $10,000 bounty?

 

[az_prof]

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more.

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on regarding that game right now. Vikings fans must be delighted.

Open your eyes. The truth is out there.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPZCVCZNc50

Wow. I had forgotten just how bad some of those hits were.

I remember watching the game and thinking that the Saints must have planned to take him out. Now the facts show that they did. There are occasionally illegal hits in a game. It can happen when a player is trying to make a play. But in this game it was continuous. There were so many illegal hits that I knew something was up.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Do you know what a bounty is? It is what the mafia does. For 10K you can have a man murdered. If the bounty and the violence that was triggered by it happened off of the football field, the people involved would be going to jail for aggravated assault and for conspiracy to commit assualt.

Drop the sanctimony. Everything that goes on during a football game would be considered assault if it happened off the football field. What's the difference between paying a player a salary to knock the crap out of someone or essentially betting on the same thing??? I know you're going to come back with "intent to injure", well if there was such an "intent" then why did a WSJ study reveal that the Saints were involved in only 18 injuries over a 54 game span? One injury per three games argues heavily against your "mafia" and "murder" "intent" mantra.

I was being descriptive of reality. If you pay someone to hurt someone that is called a "hit"; conspiracy to commit assualt. There is a big difference between playing hard, trying to force fumbles, trying to get INTs, trying to play physical, and deliberately trying to injure a player. The game film shows that throughout the Viking game the Saints not only hit hard, but hit late, hit high, hit low, and played outside the rules. Are you saying that had nothing to do with the $10,000 bounty?

Apparently you have never watched playoff football.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more.

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on regarding that game right now. Vikings fans must be delighted.

Open your eyes. The truth is out there.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPZCVCZNc50

Wow. I had forgotten just how bad some of those hits were.

I remember watching the game and thinking that the Saints must have planned to take him out. Now the facts show that they did. There are occasionally illegal hits in a game. It can happen when a player is trying to make a play. But in this game it was continuous. There were so many illegal hits that I knew something was up.

Oh, what a bunch of horse####.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

We get Favre's take on that game yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf6Wv7We_VE&feature=related

 

[az_prof]

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more.

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on regarding that game right now. Vikings fans must be delighted.

Open your eyes. The truth is out there.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPZCVCZNc50

Wow. I had forgotten just how bad some of those hits were.

I remember watching the game and thinking that the Saints must have planned to take him out. Now the facts show that they did. There are occasionally illegal hits in a game. It can happen when a player is trying to make a play. But in this game it was continuous. There were so many illegal hits that I knew something was up.

Oh, what a bunch of horse####.

What exactly is bull? My claim that there were an inordinate amount of illegal hits on Favre? Or the claim that the bounty, which we know to be a fact, contributed to the amount of illegal hits? Take a look at the video posted above and count how many illegal hits you see.

 

[CalBear]

Apparently you have never watched playoff football.

If playoff football routinely includes defenders taking a three-yard run-up to lay out the QB after he has handed off the ball, it needs to change.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

\What exactly is bull? My claim that there were an inordinate amount of illegal hits on Favre? Or the claim that the bounty, which we know to be a fact, contributed to the amount of illegal hits? Take a look at the video posted above and count how many illegal hits you see.

I've seen the game at least 15 times. I don't need to take a look at your video. I know what happened.

 

[guderian]

Do you know what a bounty is? It is what the mafia does. For 10K you can have a man murdered. If the bounty and the violence that was triggered by it happened off of the football field, the people involved would be going to jail for aggravated assault and for conspiracy to commit assualt.

Drop the sanctimony. Everything that goes on during a football game would be considered assault if it happened off the football field. What's the difference between paying a player a salary to knock the crap out of someone or essentially betting on the same thing??? I know you're going to come back with "intent to injure", well if there was such an "intent" then why did a WSJ study reveal that the Saints were involved in only 18 injuries over a 54 game span? One injury per three games argues heavily against your "mafia" and "murder" "intent" mantra.

I was being descriptive of reality. If you pay someone to hurt someone that is called a "hit"; conspiracy to commit assualt. There is a big difference between playing hard, trying to force fumbles, trying to get INTs, trying to play physical, and deliberately trying to injure a player. The game film shows that throughout the Viking game the Saints not only hit hard, but hit late, hit high, hit low, and played outside the rules. Are you saying that had nothing to do with the $10,000 bounty?

Favre finished the game. If there was a 'conspiracy to commit assault" it would be shocking to fail at injuring him. This isn't the first time that a team's game plan has been to rough up a QB. A couple of years ago the Giants knocked out 4 QBs in a row. You can parse every play if you want, but the fact is that only 2 personal flag fouls were thrown. If this was such a conspiracy, why weren't there more flags and why did Favre finish the game? Because the game was played within the rules.

 

[guderian]

What exactly is bull? My claim that there were an inordinate amount of illegal hits on Favre? Or the claim that the bounty, which we know to be a fact, contributed to the amount of illegal hits? Take a look at the video posted above and count how many illegal hits you see.

The refs didn't think they were illegal--you do. And the refs have historically gone to extreme lengths to protect marquee guys like Favre.

 

[az_prof]

What exactly is bull? My claim that there were an inordinate amount of illegal hits on Favre? Or the claim that the bounty, which we know to be a fact, contributed to the amount of illegal hits? Take a look at the video posted above and count how many illegal hits you see.

The refs didn't think they were illegal--you do. And the refs have historically gone to extreme lengths to protect marquee guys like Favre.

The ref apologized to Favre later for missing a key call: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/07/favre-says-ref-apologized-for-missing-saints-hit-in-nfc-championship/Open your eyes: the facts are out there...

 

[Luke Skywalker]

A couple of years ago the Giants knocked out 4 QBs in a row.

Well, there must have been bounties involved because a team clearly has no other reason to try and take out the quarterback. I knew something was fishy there!

 

[Autumn Wind]

I've seen the game at least 15 times.

Yikes.

 

[Amused to Death]

A couple of years ago the Giants knocked out 4 QBs in a row.

Well, there must have been bounties involved because a team clearly has no other reason to try and take out the quarterback.

You say you understand why they are being punished yet you continue to defend them. Are you trolling now? We can all agree that the Saints got caught (allegedly) running one of the biggest bounty operations in the history of the NFL, with a known felon and lied to the commish.They're not the first, they are not going to be the last, but they got caught. They're going to get hammered by the league. What else is there to discuss?BTW, anyone know when disciplinary actions will be announced?

 

[Luke Skywalker]

You say you understand why they are being punished yet you continue to defend them.

It's like talking to a brick wall, I swear.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

I like the topic of the message the NFL needs to send.

This issue is not about the Saints as an organization. It isn't about a media witch hunt. It is not about Goodell being on some power craze. It's about the NFL realizing that players are bigger, faster, and able to create more violence, and that leads to more serious injuries. Linebackers are bigger than offensive lineman used to be. The game of football needs to embrace a culture change where winning at all costs, especially the cost of unnecessary risks to health, is no longer acceptable.

Football can and will continue to be a game of hits and physical play. But players need to start using techniques that lessen the chance of serious injuries while still keeping the physical play that makes football the sport it is. The health consequences just of playing are serious enough without allowing head hunting, diving at knees, or hunting QBs when the hit has nothing to do with the play.

And there's no room at all for the mindset that trying to injure other players is acceptable. No matter how widespread or long-standing it was, the game needs to come that realization. I think the league has realized it, but it will be awhile before the message gets out to the players. And the coaches need to be the ones driving that change since the players will do whatever is needed to please the coach and get playing time.

I think some of the comments we've heard from sources in the league office suggest that is exactly the mindset the league has. From a PFT article:

“This is a seminal moment in the culture change we have to make,” a source close to Goodell said. “This has to stop now. Every team needs to hear the message that we’re in a different era now, where this appalling behavior is going to end.”

Yeah, even as a Raider fan who enjoyed the vicious hits of the past growing up, it's time to accept that the game has evolved. It's reached a point that a new breed of bigger, stronger, faster freakish athlete is the norm. Coaching has also evolved in tackling techniques and angles that put players in position to defend and still avoid headhunting (or knee-hunting) shots. Football in is essence is still a violent game and will continue to be a violent game when played correctly. The time has come for the NFL to send a message that is loud and clear that bounty shots are not going to be tolerated anymore. This is a precedent setting punishment that is going to be sent down to the Saints and GW. However severe or light the discipline imposed will reverberate accordingly around locker rooms going forward. This nonsense has to stop. Will the Commish bring the hammer?

 

[Amused to Death]

You say you understand why they are being punished yet you continue to defend them.

It's like talking to a brick wall, I swear.

Instead of laughing, tell me what your point is. You say you understand why they're being punished, yet you equate their actions to those of other teams. Maybe I'm missing your point. And please don't be condescending. TIA.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Instead of laughing, tell me what your point is. You say you understand why they're being punished, yet you equate their actions to those of other teams. Maybe I'm missing your point. And please don't be condescending. TIA.

I don't really have a point, I'm just laughing at the over-the-top ridiculousness of some of the reactions here. Take that for what you want, it doesn't really matter to me.

 

[CalBear]

I don't really have a point

That's the first thing you've gotten right all thread.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

I don't really have a point

That's the first thing you've gotten right all thread.

Keep piling on kids, I'll be here all week. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE! MORAL OUTRAGE! RABBLE RABBLE!

 

[sho nuff]

I don't think your statement is factually correct about the NFL "sitting on this info for 2 years". They investigated it, and while they believed it was going on, they didn't have enough proof in 2010 to level punishment, so they told the Saints to stop and clean up anything of the sort.

Then in 2011 someone came forward and revealed the extent of what was going on, and the NFL went back in and found the evidence. At which point they had the evidence, and so informed the rest of the clubs of their finding at which point it hit the press.

FWIW: in the Darren Sharper interview that guderian linked to a few pages back, Sharper came out and said a disgruntled someone (my read-between-the-lines is Charles Grant) took info about the actual "cash for big plays" system, and then fabricated on top of it the "evidence" for alleged "injury bounties". Not sure how to jibe that with Gregg Williams' Friday apology (unless it was CYA lip service ), but that's the drum Sharper is beating.Something I've wondered about since I first heard about Vilma's rain-making -- just who was present when Vilma allegedly slapped $10,000 on the table for a Favre knock-out? Was it during a linebacker's meeting, say? Or was it in the presence of the entire defense? Was it right before the game, in the Dome locker-room? At the practice facility during the week? At a private occasion, say, at someone's home? There could be more plausible deniability out there for some players.

Doubt the NFL uncovered what they supposedly did just because of one guy's fabrication.

 

[sho nuff]

You say you understand why they are being punished yet you continue to defend them.

It's like talking to a brick wall, I swear.

Instead of laughing, tell me what your point is. You say you understand why they're being punished, yet you equate their actions to those of other teams. Maybe I'm missing your point. And please don't be condescending. TIA.

Its all just a media conspiracy because the Saints are hard on the media remember?

 

[Amused to Death]

You say you understand why they are being punished yet you continue to defend them.

It's like talking to a brick wall, I swear.

Instead of laughing, tell me what your point is. You say you understand why they're being punished, yet you equate their actions to those of other teams. Maybe I'm missing your point. And please don't be condescending. TIA.

Its all just a media conspiracy because the Saints are hard on the media remember?

Its like I posted before, we can all agree that the Saints were caught running the biggest bounty program in the history of the league (regardless if other teams do it), had it funded by a convicted felon (who btw is good buddies with the HC), promised to stop the practice but didn't and lied.What could possibly be wrong with that? Other teams do it. Other teams will continue to do it. When they are caught, there will be a precedent set for the severity of the punishment. My guess is however no other team will put it in writing. That more than anything seems to be the Saints' undoing. There is (supposedly) hard, undeniable proof of who knew what and who condoned it. I think that's what separates this situation from other teams.

 

[Maik Jeaunz]

This story makes the point I was making: The Saints were targeting Favre in NFC Championship game and it may have cost the Vikings a shot at the SB.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/07/favre-says-ref-apologized-for-missing-saints-hit-in-nfc-championship/

Interesting part of that article I highlighted below:

Peter King of Sports Illustrated, who has been looking back on that game as he reports on the Saints’ bounty scandal, said today on the Dan Patrick Show that Favre told him referee Pete Morelli apologized for missing the call.

“Favre told me that Morelli apologized to him for not calling the high-low call that basically started this whole story, and caused Saints players on the sidelines, at least one, to be rejoicing and slapping hands and another one to say ‘We got him, we got him’ and another one to say, ‘Pay me my money,’” King said. “Morelli, by the way, through the league, denies telling that to Favre. . . . Favre said that Morelli apologized to him for missing that call, which was a blatant, horrible missed call, and Morelli denies it.”

If a Saints player was heard saying that after the hit, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what led to the allegations and the NFL investigation. I would think it would take something more than "We think they were trying to injure the QB" to get the NFL to conduct an actual investigation. A statement like that could have done it.

pretty much everything that Peter King is saying is speculation and hearsay, with no proof to back it up. I wouldn't be surprised if he is fabricating most of it based on his fanboy love of Favre. the problem is that too many people are taking what he's saying and running with it as truth.

 

[Maik Jeaunz]

Offering bounties to take a guy out is not the same as playing good, hard defense. If you look at the game, there were many illegal hits on Favre. A hit to his head after he handed the ball off on a RUN play. A dual high/low hit, with the lower one targeting his knees. A blow to the chest when he was on the ground. And more.

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on regarding that game right now. Vikings fans must be delighted.

pretty soon, the only reason that Favre was able to make it back in the game will be because he was floating 6 inches off the ground to protect his ankle. he's just lucky he was able to dodge that trident that Bobby McCray threw at him.

 

[Dexter Manley]

yep this is a perception issue and a Multi-Billion dollar business.

someone will have to be sacrificed... and that will be Greg Williams

Lifetime ban is looking strong

I think the NFL wanted Benson to react more strongly and fire his GM at the least and fine his own coach... but now the NFL will take the Hammer to Benson as well.

I dont think I ever heard the Morts and Schefters of the world say Severe more often than they have in this case...

Benson should have fired his GM and it might have saved him a few million..., like Vick, he seems not to be remorseful..

and Payton is the wild card... could get a year himself, although I think it will be 8 games... and some cash..

6 picks.. 3 this year and 3 next year..

and no Ricky Willaims for them

doh!

I was thinking about Benson's (lack of) actions last night. I think if I were Benson I might have already announced a suspension of the staff members involved, in addition to anything that the NFL levels. It might help lessen what would be done to the team and players, and it is even conceivable it could lessen what Loomis and Payton will get if the team shows they are setting their ship to order. Though I wouldn't bet on the latter point. But more than any of that, I think it's probably just the right thing to do. Unless Benson was aware the whole time in which case I can see not doing it as it would be kind of two-faced.

I've seen no conclusive evidence that Benson knew about the bounties the whole time, but his actions certainly indicate that he was aware. I understand backing Payton, as he's one of the top coaches in the league. But why back Loomis? This is the same guy that reportedly lied to Benson once before in the Vicodin case. So Loomis reportedly lied to Benson about the bounties, the second big lie he has told his owner, yet Benson is backing Loomis 100%. It doesn't make much sense unless Benson knew the bounties were going on and Loomis is taking the fall for him.

 

[Bird]

If there were no suspensions given for Spygate then I have a hard time justifying suspensions for Bountygate. There should be hefty fines commensurate with salaries and lost draft picks but suspensions seem much less likely since the offender is a Franchise. I guess if you can determine the highest position within the Saints organization that knew of the NFL warning but did nothing to stop it then that person could be suspended but would the impact be felt on the field. If Gregg Williams had been warned at previous coaching jobs and continued the practice in NO then he could be suspended following that logic. However, if Belichick didn't get suspended for Spygate then how can Payton be suspended for this.

all gates aren't created equal. Videotaping a practice isn't in the same rhelm as targetting to injure NFL star players and paying them for it. One is a traffic ticket and the other is a criminal offense.

What competitive edge was gained by the Saints through this practice? They still were officiated like every other team. They still had to adhere to the same set of rules. Take the emotion out of the picture and you will see that Spygate was a more egregious offense. People are shocked by what's been said but the practice of what they did was still subject to NFL officiating and I don't recall an excessive amount of personal fouls against them. The NFL will come down hard on the Saints because the practice was institutionalized through the organization and because their warnings were not heeded by NO but not because of what an emotionally charged linebacker offered his teammates as a reward to play hard between the lines.

 

[GregR]

yep this is a perception issue and a Multi-Billion dollar business.

someone will have to be sacrificed... and that will be Greg Williams

Lifetime ban is looking strong

I think the NFL wanted Benson to react more strongly and fire his GM at the least and fine his own coach... but now the NFL will take the Hammer to Benson as well.

I dont think I ever heard the Morts and Schefters of the world say Severe more often than they have in this case...

Benson should have fired his GM and it might have saved him a few million..., like Vick, he seems not to be remorseful..

and Payton is the wild card... could get a year himself, although I think it will be 8 games... and some cash..

6 picks.. 3 this year and 3 next year..

and no Ricky Willaims for them

doh!

I was thinking about Benson's (lack of) actions last night. I think if I were Benson I might have already announced a suspension of the staff members involved, in addition to anything that the NFL levels. It might help lessen what would be done to the team and players, and it is even conceivable it could lessen what Loomis and Payton will get if the team shows they are setting their ship to order. Though I wouldn't bet on the latter point. But more than any of that, I think it's probably just the right thing to do. Unless Benson was aware the whole time in which case I can see not doing it as it would be kind of two-faced.

I've seen no conclusive evidence that Benson knew about the bounties the whole time, but his actions certainly indicate that he was aware. I understand backing Payton, as he's one of the top coaches in the league. But why back Loomis? This is the same guy that reportedly lied to Benson once before in the Vicodin case. So Loomis reportedly lied to Benson about the bounties, the second big lie he has told his owner, yet Benson is backing Loomis 100%. It doesn't make much sense unless Benson knew the bounties were going on and Loomis is taking the fall for him.

Agreed, I mentioned the same sort of thing earlier in the thread... that Loomis could potentially get fired if Benson didn't know anything and Loomis lied to him. Again, I'd forgot the Vicodin thing. But if he's taking the fall to keep Benson from being implicated, of course that wouldn't happen.

 

[CalBear]

What competitive edge was gained by the Saints through this practice? They still were officiated like every other team. They still had to adhere to the same set of rules. Take the emotion out of the picture and you will see that Spygate was a more egregious offense.

Intentionally trying to hurt human beings, and succeeding, is a more egregious offense than (sort of) cheating at a game. I think it's bizarre to claim otherwise.

 

[Bird]

What competitive edge was gained by the Saints through this practice? They still were officiated like every other team. They still had to adhere to the same set of rules. Take the emotion out of the picture and you will see that Spygate was a more egregious offense.

Intentionally trying to hurt human beings, and succeeding, is a more egregious offense than (sort of) cheating at a game. I think it's bizarre to claim otherwise.

Come on! Every NFL play involves someone trying to hurt someone. Slamming your body into another tends to do that. You are acting like the Saints had baseball bats and steel pipes in their pants that they were using. They failed to heed the Commissioner's warning and will face the penalty but please stop pretending that their acts on the football field are criminal. I mean, Eli Manning had the tar kicked out of him in the NFC Championship Game. I guess, as a Giants fan, I should review the tape after it's already been officiated to determine if there was a bounty on him?