Not all receivers are Anquan Boldin. Maybe he'll never be that aggressive kind of player. Randy Moss avoided being hit his entire career and he did alright. Desean Jackson runs out of bounds or lays down every chance he gets, too. I'm much more concerned with your other points. Especially getting to know Brady's tendencies and knowing when it'll be a back shoulder pass or when he should keep running or stop when Brady's scrambling.
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kenbrell thompkins (1 Viewer)
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saintfool
Dead sexy
Exactly. No one is predicting an All-Pro or HOF career for Thompkins here. I don't think there would be as much griping by observers if he had managed a TD in the game. for his first start in a real game, he did just about what i expected.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I think Brady is getting way too much deference on some of those throws. The one in the endzone when Brady was rolling to his right was all on Brady IMO. Thompkins was actually rolling in the same direction as Brady, not the opposite direction. Brady threw back across his body and threw it wide of Thompkins which forced Thompkins to stop and reach the other way. It was a bad throw by Brady. There was nobody around Thompkins. All he had to do was throw it directly at him.
Brady threw a ton of wobblers Sunday. I thought he was throwing a lot of ducks at the end of last year too. He also threw some great passes, but stuff deep down field or to the sidelines all seemed like it lost its spiral and velocity.
Also, Buffalo played surprisingly well in the secondary for the most part. They knocked down a lot of passes and shoved guys out on the sidelines. Amendola made some absolutely mind blowing catches against perfect coverage.
The biggest issue to me were the passes where Thompkins and Brady weren't on the same page with those back shoulder/come back throws. That's dangerous. But that will come with experience.
Brady threw a ton of wobblers Sunday. I thought he was throwing a lot of ducks at the end of last year too. He also threw some great passes, but stuff deep down field or to the sidelines all seemed like it lost its spiral and velocity.
Also, Buffalo played surprisingly well in the secondary for the most part. They knocked down a lot of passes and shoved guys out on the sidelines. Amendola made some absolutely mind blowing catches against perfect coverage.
The biggest issue to me were the passes where Thompkins and Brady weren't on the same page with those back shoulder/come back throws. That's dangerous. But that will come with experience.
Not every player is willing to take big hits the same, but guys with alligator arms and that want to fall down on a bubble screen instead of fight into the endzone dont last long. First off, you're just not gonna get that target again on short yardage and in the redzone. KT isnt a burner so you dont expect breakaway TDs. So where do you fantasy points come from?JuniorNB said:
I'm not pulling the plug- im just pointing out something that i caught the first pre-season game and has only grown more worrisome to me. A player SHOULD avoid a big hit- but thats not the same thing as avoiding contact. I dont care if not everyone is going to fight for every yard, but if you dont even see whats available because you are looking to get a whistle, i dont think youre gonna stick at this level.
shader
Footballguy
I was worried about Thompkins, but if you played him last week, you HAVE to play him this week. Now there is no Amendola and no Vereen. Also, he received 14 targets, and the Patriots ran more plays than the Eagles.
The biggest worry with Thompkins is that the Pats get frustrated and all of a sudden he leaves the field. I'll be playing him again this week, and hopefully he'll respond and perform better. Much will possibly depend on where Cromartie is on the field.
The biggest worry with Thompkins is that the Pats get frustrated and all of a sudden he leaves the field. I'll be playing him again this week, and hopefully he'll respond and perform better. Much will possibly depend on where Cromartie is on the field.
just_want_2_win
Footballguy
Looking at the stats, Thompkins' 14 targets tied him with Fitz and Amendola for 4th most among WR/TE/RBs in Week 1. And 3 of those targets came in the RZ.
Unfortunately, his catch rate was only 29%.
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This week will certainly be a turning point. I dont know that not having anybody else on the field for defenses to worry about is going to help KT, guess we'll see. He's going to need to step up big if The Jets decide they are going to get up on the line and make KT beat them. Up side, if he does it could cement him in his position.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
The safety is a good 3-4 yards to the right and the LBer is in the front of the end zone. Nobody had a play on the ball at all if Brady threw it directly to him.
parrot
Footballguy
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
You're right. I'm wrong. The view they showed most in-game and on the Rewind made it look like the CB was to the right of Thompkin.
But honestly, that view makes it even more perplexing that Brady threw back across his body towards the left sideline. From the direction he was running and where the DB is, it seems like that throw should have actually gone to the right. And maybe I'm wrong, but Thompkins's body positioning makes it look like he was running to the right with Brady and had to break back to the left.
So even though I was wrong, I think I'm still right on where the blame belongs on that throw.
Phenix
Footballguy
It was a back shoulder WR option route, where Brady threw behind him a bit, so it adjusted as it played out.You're right. I'm wrong. The view they showed most in-game and on the Rewind made it look like the CB was to the right of Thompkin.
But honestly, that view makes it even more perplexing that Brady threw back across his body towards the left sideline. From the direction he was running and where the DB is, it seems like that throw should have actually gone to the right. And maybe I'm wrong, but Thompkins's body positioning makes it look like he was running to the right with Brady and had to break back to the left.
So even though I was wrong, I think I'm still right on where the blame belongs on that throw.
But clearly KT was right next to the CB when Brady threw it.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I don't know what the original play call was, but Brady was chased to his right out of the pocket and the play had completely broken down. At this point, a back shoulder option isn't even possible since Thompkins is running along the back of the end zone as Brady scrambles. A back shoulder throw requires the receiver to be running vertically.It was a back shoulder WR option route, where Brady threw behind him a bit, so it adjusted as it played out.You're right. I'm wrong. The view they showed most in-game and on the Rewind made it look like the CB was to the right of Thompkin.But honestly, that view makes it even more perplexing that Brady threw back across his body towards the left sideline. From the direction he was running and where the DB is, it seems like that throw should have actually gone to the right. And maybe I'm wrong, but Thompkins's body positioning makes it look like he was running to the right with Brady and had to break back to the left.
So even though I was wrong, I think I'm still right on where the blame belongs on that throw.
But clearly KT was right next to the CB when Brady threw it.
I don't know of any team that coaches their WRs to run the opposite direction that their QB is scrambling. It's standard practice to run the same direction so that the QB doesn't have to throw across his body. Brady turning and throwing back across his body towards the left sideline after scrambling to his right made no sense. Brady made either a poor throw or a poor decision.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Look for thompkins to go 7 of 11 for 80 yards this week.
PatsFanCT
Footballguy
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Settle down...brady is no mike vick.
benjaminbarker
Footballguy
hopefully andre dobson gets on the field and sees some work
Run It Up
Footballguy
Eviloutsider
Footballguy
Well, I didn't play him last week but I feel more comfortable this week with the Amendola/Vereen news. He is going in over Richardson for me.
I've heard HS coaches say if everyone is running toward the same spot, then stop. KT did that and the D kept going right which made him open. Brady threw it to KT's right not right at his chest. KT tried to make a play on it, but it's hard to stop and go back the other way if it's not planned where you plant your foot and all like a shuttle drill. Well....that's what I thought happened. I don't disagree with what you said here, just saying is allI don't know what the original play call was, but Brady was chased to his right out of the pocket and the play had completely broken down. At this point, a back shoulder option isn't even possible since Thompkins is running along the back of the end zone as Brady scrambles. A back shoulder throw requires the receiver to be running vertically.It was a back shoulder WR option route, where Brady threw behind him a bit, so it adjusted as it played out.You're right. I'm wrong. The view they showed most in-game and on the Rewind made it look like the CB was to the right of Thompkin.But honestly, that view makes it even more perplexing that Brady threw back across his body towards the left sideline. From the direction he was running and where the DB is, it seems like that throw should have actually gone to the right. And maybe I'm wrong, but Thompkins's body positioning makes it look like he was running to the right with Brady and had to break back to the left.
So even though I was wrong, I think I'm still right on where the blame belongs on that throw.
But clearly KT was right next to the CB when Brady threw it.
I don't know of any team that coaches their WRs to run the opposite direction that their QB is scrambling. It's standard practice to run the same direction so that the QB doesn't have to throw across his body. Brady turning and throwing back across his body towards the left sideline after scrambling to his right made no sense. Brady made either a poor throw or a poor decision.
TheFootballJesus
Footballguy
I'm going to be starting him again- the targets will be there on Thursday night again; it's just a question of whether he can take advantage of not.
Eviloutsider
Footballguy
Plus it's always a small bump in my mind to play a Thursday player. Gives me something to watch.
2:20 here http://www.patriots.com/media-center/videos/Highlights-Patriots-vs-Bills/41b92732-4f4f-4097-87c3-e5f980938427I've heard HS coaches say if everyone is running toward the same spot, then stop. KT did that and the D kept going right which made him open. Brady threw it to KT's right not right at his chest. KT tried to make a play on it, but it's hard to stop and go back the other way if it's not planned where you plant your foot and all like a shuttle drill. Well....that's what I thought happened. I don't disagree with what you said here, just saying is allI don't know what the original play call was, but Brady was chased to his right out of the pocket and the play had completely broken down. At this point, a back shoulder option isn't even possible since Thompkins is running along the back of the end zone as Brady scrambles. A back shoulder throw requires the receiver to be running vertically.It was a back shoulder WR option route, where Brady threw behind him a bit, so it adjusted as it played out.You're right. I'm wrong. The view they showed most in-game and on the Rewind made it look like the CB was to the right of Thompkin.But honestly, that view makes it even more perplexing that Brady threw back across his body towards the left sideline. From the direction he was running and where the DB is, it seems like that throw should have actually gone to the right. And maybe I'm wrong, but Thompkins's body positioning makes it look like he was running to the right with Brady and had to break back to the left.
So even though I was wrong, I think I'm still right on where the blame belongs on that throw.
But clearly KT was right next to the CB when Brady threw it.
I don't know of any team that coaches their WRs to run the opposite direction that their QB is scrambling. It's standard practice to run the same direction so that the QB doesn't have to throw across his body. Brady turning and throwing back across his body towards the left sideline after scrambling to his right made no sense. Brady made either a poor throw or a poor decision.
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Dobson had a significant role all summer and didn't play last week. He should get a good amount of time if he rolls this week.
I think the Pats sorely needed him in the red zone. Sudfeld wasn't very good, but he too was a big red zone target all summer yet not used. He didn't do well blocking at all and it seemed like his guy was the one hitting Brady a number of times.
Boyce I didn't notice but BF pointed out he was in, in the game thread. There were a number of times they were yuck and I figured this is the perfect time for him. Since this is how I figure he has to make his mark and earn more time this year, its not significant but more like a mental note he didn't do anything when it would have been a huge help. From what I've read and the little I've seen, he could have flourished when it was mayhem and a lot of times the RBs speed on short passes turned it into longer ones where he too could have done the same. McD should have used him and I hope that's been discussed and we see him thursday.
I think the Pats sorely needed him in the red zone. Sudfeld wasn't very good, but he too was a big red zone target all summer yet not used. He didn't do well blocking at all and it seemed like his guy was the one hitting Brady a number of times.
Boyce I didn't notice but BF pointed out he was in, in the game thread. There were a number of times they were yuck and I figured this is the perfect time for him. Since this is how I figure he has to make his mark and earn more time this year, its not significant but more like a mental note he didn't do anything when it would have been a huge help. From what I've read and the little I've seen, he could have flourished when it was mayhem and a lot of times the RBs speed on short passes turned it into longer ones where he too could have done the same. McD should have used him and I hope that's been discussed and we see him thursday.
Phenix
Footballguy
Yes but anything short of 7/80/1 and he will be dropped in all redrafts I own him regardless if he gets 14 targets a game.
Targets don't get you points, production does. I rather have 5 targets for 4 catches and a score then 14 targets for 4 catches and no TDs.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
IMO, you're missing the point on targets. No guy is going to catch 29% of passes thrown to him all season long. He wouldn't be in the league long if that was the case and it was his fault. Targets are representative of a player's involvement level in the offense. To me (playing in a PPR league), targets are the SINGLE most important stat I look at when deciding who to draft and who to pick up. Targets = catches, you need catches to get yards and TD's. Targets might not ALWAYS mean a catch, but you can't even have a chance without a target.
Do you believe the Pat's offense will be at least above average productive? If so, Thompkins getting 14 targets is a big deal. Of course you'd rather have 5tgts/4rec/1TD vs. 14tgts/4rec/0TD unless you play in a PPTarget league (?). But the point is, the guy who gets 14 targets will outscore the guy who gets 5 probably 75% of the time due to sheer involvement in the offense.
My final point is a hypothetical...are you more or less worried next week if Thompkins gets 20 targets and ends up with 5 catches for 75 yards, or if he gets 1 target, 1 catch, 75 yards and a TD? For me, I'd still rather see him have a high involvement in the offense and get his 20 targets.
If his targets fall drastically this week, WITH Amendola and Vereen out, I'm worried.
While this is true, in general, targets tell a story. A story of trust from the quarterback. A story of who is an integral part of the game plan. Good owners read more than just the stat line.
Short Corner
Footballguy
This really shouldn't have to be explained on this board. Some guppies just refuse to learn.JuniorNB said:
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Agree with the idea of targets > catches, but in this case you have to decide if 14 for 4 was due to...
a) a player being in over his head and unable to get open despite having every situational advantage you could imagine?
or
b) a flukey result due to randomness
Because if it's the former he's not going to see as many targets as the season goes on (he won't see 14 and they'll take a hit anyway when Gronk gets back) -- teams with options don't keep throwing to players when it produces inefficient results.
a) a player being in over his head and unable to get open despite having every situational advantage you could imagine?
or
b) a flukey result due to randomness
Because if it's the former he's not going to see as many targets as the season goes on (he won't see 14 and they'll take a hit anyway when Gronk gets back) -- teams with options don't keep throwing to players when it produces inefficient results.
moviedude25
Footballguy
The news that the Patriots aren't practicing for this game tells me they are set with the game plan they had last week. Which leads me to believe that nothings changed. If last weeks plan was to throw the ball to him alot then they will do it again this week and with Vereen and Amandola out I see his targets nearing 10 total. What he does with the opportunity determines his near term future so I'm starting him and hoping he does something with itJuniorNB said:
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
FWIW...
parrot
Footballguy
Fair enough. My impression was that Brady probably didn't want to try floating something over the linebacker with the corner cutting underneath. Brady threw a pass that really only Thompkins had any chance to make a play on. Not that he couldn't have completed the other throw, but this was the safer throw.You're right. I'm wrong. The view they showed most in-game and on the Rewind made it look like the CB was to the right of Thompkin.
But honestly, that view makes it even more perplexing that Brady threw back across his body towards the left sideline. From the direction he was running and where the DB is, it seems like that throw should have actually gone to the right. And maybe I'm wrong, but Thompkins's body positioning makes it look like he was running to the right with Brady and had to break back to the left.
So even though I was wrong, I think I'm still right on where the blame belongs on that throw.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
If he was unable to get open, why did Brady throw him the ball? If one really thinks this is Thompkin's fault, then the bigger question is why is Brady throwing 14 times to a guy who isn't open?
The absolute worst WR's in the league drop ~15% of the catchable passes thrown to them. If somebody really thinks Thompkins will continue to "drop" 71% of his passes (4 of 14), and they actually believe the drops are his fault, then he'll be out of the league by game 5 and you can all say "I told you so."
KT gets one more shot in my lineup tomorrow night.
If he answers the call and produces he gets more rope.
But if his targets are greatly reduced and its obvious Brady has lost trust in him after last week or if the targets remain and he stinks it up, he goes to my bench and becomes an instantly droppable player in my opinion.
Don't forget, guys...with KT we are working on a very small sample size. He lit it up in the preseason and won the #2 receiver gig which made us all giddy.
However, last week was the first time we all got to see him play under the lights, the pressure, and against REAL defensive schemes. And he looked lost.
I'm not sealing his coffin just yet, and I know he's a rookie, but he would get more slack from me if he was more of a pedigreed wideout coming out of college.
When you are an UFA you need to seize the moments that are given to you if you want to keep the higher draft pick on the pine.
In week 1, KT failed to do that and I suspect that if Dobson were active in that game he would have seen time over KT once the coaching staff and Brady had seen him make error after error.
Lets also not forget that WR is the toughest position for a rookie to learn. Generally I would meet recommend relying on a rookie starting wr in your lineup, but the KT situation was different. He played like a seasoned pro in the preseason and gained Brady's trust. But week 1 showed that he is really just a scared rookie, and we should probably think twice before using him as a fantasy option.
If it wasn't for the injury to Vereen, Thompkins would not be in my lineup right now.
JMHO
If he answers the call and produces he gets more rope.
But if his targets are greatly reduced and its obvious Brady has lost trust in him after last week or if the targets remain and he stinks it up, he goes to my bench and becomes an instantly droppable player in my opinion.
Don't forget, guys...with KT we are working on a very small sample size. He lit it up in the preseason and won the #2 receiver gig which made us all giddy.
However, last week was the first time we all got to see him play under the lights, the pressure, and against REAL defensive schemes. And he looked lost.
I'm not sealing his coffin just yet, and I know he's a rookie, but he would get more slack from me if he was more of a pedigreed wideout coming out of college.
When you are an UFA you need to seize the moments that are given to you if you want to keep the higher draft pick on the pine.
In week 1, KT failed to do that and I suspect that if Dobson were active in that game he would have seen time over KT once the coaching staff and Brady had seen him make error after error.
Lets also not forget that WR is the toughest position for a rookie to learn. Generally I would meet recommend relying on a rookie starting wr in your lineup, but the KT situation was different. He played like a seasoned pro in the preseason and gained Brady's trust. But week 1 showed that he is really just a scared rookie, and we should probably think twice before using him as a fantasy option.
If it wasn't for the injury to Vereen, Thompkins would not be in my lineup right now.
JMHO
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I sense a massive psych-out by BB on the way.
If so, FF nation are probably not the only ones taking a Edelman head fake, possibly the Jets are as well. And Edelman destroyed them last year, he's not sneaking by anyone. Who knows maybe Dobson shows or even Boyce or Washington show up.
Starting KT.
If so, FF nation are probably not the only ones taking a Edelman head fake, possibly the Jets are as well. And Edelman destroyed them last year, he's not sneaking by anyone. Who knows maybe Dobson shows or even Boyce or Washington show up.
Starting KT.
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LittlePhatty
Footballguy
Didn't start him week 1.
Will start him this Thursday for week 2 just based on a gut feeling. If he disappoints, I don't think I'll be giving him another chance for a long while.
Will start him this Thursday for week 2 just based on a gut feeling. If he disappoints, I don't think I'll be giving him another chance for a long while.
Return of the Sheep
Footballguy
I think this question is the most important thing brought up for this week. Cromartie is a big physical corner and Thomkins doesn't look like a big physical WR. If Crom is on Thom I think he gets shut down. Then people will start dropping him and he will be a great buy low or ww add going into week 3.
kutta
Footballguy
Phenix
Footballguy
Thanks for the education of targets and what they mean as a guy who watches football I had no clue.Fat Nick said:
Again, Thompkins is involved and had 14 targets... HOW MANY POINTS THAT GET YOU?
Yes targets mean opportunity, but if you are involved and getting opportunity and doing nothing with it, what's the point?
Again he better get nothing short of 7/80/1 or he is gonna be gone off my team in all redraft.
PatsFanCT
Footballguy
So, 7/79/1 from your #3 WR doesn't cut it, huh?Thanks for the education of targets and what they mean as a guy who watches football I had no clue.Fat Nick said:
Again, Thompkins is involved and had 14 targets... HOW MANY POINTS THAT GET YOU?
Yes targets mean opportunity, but if you are involved and getting opportunity and doing nothing with it, what's the point?
Again he better get nothing short of 7/80/1 or he is gonna be gone off my team in all redraft.
Phenix
Footballguy
LOL, good owners realize STATS are all that matter in fantasy. Targets do not get you points, the fact this has to be explained is foolish.
James Jones 64 catches on 98 Targets and led the league in TDs with 14.
Larry Fitzgerald had 71 catches on 156 targets and 4 scores.
But, please tell me more about targets while your next argument to make your case will be.... Well the QBs are different. Blah Blah Blah.
Point is targets dont got get you points, production does. Doesn't matter who your QB is, but POINTS, not targets, not looks, just POINTS win you games!
Phenix
Footballguy
Nope as well as 8/150/0 would cut it either.So, 7/79/1 from your #3 WR doesn't cut it, huh?Thanks for the education of targets and what they mean as a guy who watches football I had no clue.Fat Nick said:
Again, Thompkins is involved and had 14 targets... HOW MANY POINTS THAT GET YOU?
Yes targets mean opportunity, but if you are involved and getting opportunity and doing nothing with it, what's the point?
Again he better get nothing short of 7/80/1 or he is gonna be gone off my team in all redraft.
If you think I'm so stuck on 1 yard and you dont realize my point thats your prob, but he needs to perform like a starter worthy of a roster spot on short bench in redraft.
Lets cut to the obvious here- KT wont be getting 14 targets if he isn't converting on them. Take that in a vacuum, doesnt matter why. If he isn't making plays he wont be getting targeted going forward. Does that mean the next game? Dunno, probably not. But Brady and BB dont care, they just are going to find somebody else to throw the ball to. This game is critical- with Gronk due back and probly Amendola, this is likely the last showcase for KT. He might get 15 targets. He better look professional with them, and he better produce. Watch the game, not the stat line. If he's not on the page with Brady and the defense is stifling him, somebody else is probably going to get a chance to see if they click with Brady, probably sooner rather than later. Patriots will not stand still for a guy to learn- even if they have to bring in a FA vet to play that position, they will do it if necessary. KT is intriguing precisely for this reason- he wouldnt be out there if he wasnt ready to go and able to produce. But that knife cuts both ways, he is not going to be given time as a starter to develop. They drafted two rookies with relatively high picks they could be doing that with. They went with the guy they thought ready to play. If he's not ready to play he will be GONE. So watch tomorrow.
tombonneau
Footballguy
I just finally had a chance to watch game on Rewind and the 4 of 14 targets is deceptive. A lot of those were bad Brady passes. Who is to say if Thompkins was at fault, but Brady was a little off all game so I don't think it's all on Thompkins. There was maybe one sideline catch he could have done a better job, but that end zone pass was a bad Brady throw. Overall for an UDFA starting his first game on the road, this was a C effort, no more no less.
He's still very much a hold and given Pats injury situation alone the arrow is pointing up. You can't fault him if the hype surrounding him got a little out of control. I'm still very happy with him as my WR4.
He's still very much a hold and given Pats injury situation alone the arrow is pointing up. You can't fault him if the hype surrounding him got a little out of control. I'm still very happy with him as my WR4.
I'm not denying your analysis of what you saw but then the obvious question is why didn't amendola and Edelman suffer if it was mostly Brady passing poorly? Why did they convert on more of their targets? Is it that Brady only passed poorly to KT?
I'm not being sarcastic I didn't watch the whole game. What did you see?
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