Was this date rape? (1 Viewer)

[Otis]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

Agreed. The problem is exactly that. He gave consent. She apparently gave consent. But perhaps unbeknownst to this guy, she decided in her mind at some point in the 9th inning that it didn't feel right, and so in her mind she revoked the consent. That's useless for everyone in that situation.

No, this isn't the conventional "blaming the victim" or "she asked for it." But once you give consent and put the wheels in motion, you are taking responsibility to revoke that consent at some point. I'd say your responsibility is to do that in a clear way. But if you put yourself AND THE GUY in the position described, and then for whatever reason don't try to communicate your revocation of consent clearly, you've failed both people involved. You've taken on responsibility at that point.

By the way, and I believed I communicated this on page 1, but I completely agree that if her physical push was a clear revocation of consent, and that the guy understood it to be that but persisted anyway, it's obviously rape and he's obviously a scumbag. Nobody here would defend a guy who does that.

 

[Fennis]

when mcgas money, #16, Eminence, Otis, and a guy repeatedly talking about "finger banging" while his hand is being pushed away spend all night arguing one side of an issue, its a safe bet going the opposite direction by default.

 

[Otis]

when mcgas money, #16, Eminence, Otis, and a guy repeatedly talking about "finger banging" while his hand is being pushed away spend all night arguing one side of an issue, its a safe bet going the opposite direction by default.

I realize I'm not in the best of company here. But even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Gotta agree with Otis at this point. "Affirmative consent" is the feminist version of "abstinence-only" sex ed in that they both share a completely unrealistic, ideological approach to sex.

I'm not suggesting in any way affirmative consent is required. But, you know, there's a pretty huge ocean between, "is it okay if I kiss you" to "Is it okay if I push you down on this bed and hold you down while I roughly #### you, even though we haven't had sex at all yet?"

You should really think hard on the latter.

 

[dparker713]

Gotta agree with Otis at this point. "Affirmative consent" is the feminist version of "abstinence-only" sex ed in that they both share a completely unrealistic, ideological approach to sex.

I'm not suggesting in any way affirmative consent is required. But, you know, there's a pretty huge ocean between, "is it okay if I kiss you" to "Is it okay if I push you down on this bed and hold you down while I roughly #### you, even though we haven't had sex at all yet?"

You should really think hard on the latter.

So, choreographed sex is required now?

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

Agreed. The problem is exactly that. He gave consent. She apparently gave consent. But perhaps unbeknownst to this guy, she decided in her mind at some point in the 9th inning that it didn't feel right, and so in her mind she revoked the consent. That's useless for everyone in that situation.

No, this isn't the conventional "blaming the victim" or "she asked for it." But once you give consent and put the wheels in motion, you are taking responsibility to revoke that consent at some point. I'd say your responsibility is to do that in a clear way. But if you put yourself AND THE GUY in the position described, and then for whatever reason don't try to communicate your revocation of consent clearly, you've failed both people involved. You've taken on responsibility at that point.

By the way, and I believed I communicated this on page 1, but I completely agree that if her physical push was a clear revocation of consent, and that the guy understood it to be that but persisted anyway, it's obviously rape and he's obviously a scumbag. Nobody here would defend a guy who does that.

So we're actually pretty close then. The only thing I would say is that if the girl is in a situation where she might reasonably be afraid to say no, it shifts the greater burden of making sure there is consent back to the guy. If more guys think about this kind of stuff and are willing to recognize that consent is kind of a big deal, there would be lot less women being raped and guys being convicted of rape.

There would also probably be a lot better quality sex happening, but that's a whole other topic.

 

[proninja]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

Agreed. The problem is exactly that. He gave consent. She apparently gave consent. But perhaps unbeknownst to this guy, she decided in her mind at some point in the 9th inning that it didn't feel right, and so in her mind she revoked the consent. That's useless for everyone in that situation.

No, this isn't the conventional "blaming the victim" or "she asked for it." But once you give consent and put the wheels in motion, you are taking responsibility to revoke that consent at some point. I'd say your responsibility is to do that in a clear way. But if you put yourself AND THE GUY in the position described, and then for whatever reason don't try to communicate your revocation of consent clearly, you've failed both people involved. You've taken on responsibility at that point.

By the way, and I believed I communicated this on page 1, but I completely agree that if her physical push was a clear revocation of consent, and that the guy understood it to be that but persisted anyway, it's obviously rape and he's obviously a scumbag. Nobody here would defend a guy who does that.

So we're actually pretty close then. The only thing I would say is that if the girl is in a situation where she might reasonably be afraid to say no, it shifts the greater burden of making sure there is consent back to the guy. If more guys think about this kind of stuff and are willing to recognize that consent is kind of a big deal, there would be lot less women being raped and guys being convicted of rape.

There would also probably be a lot better quality sex happening, but that's a whole other topic.

I don't think any of us are that far apart. There's just a lot of ifs and interpretation going on.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Gotta agree with Otis at this point. "Affirmative consent" is the feminist version of "abstinence-only" sex ed in that they both share a completely unrealistic, ideological approach to sex.

I'm not suggesting in any way affirmative consent is required. But, you know, there's a pretty huge ocean between, "is it okay if I kiss you" to "Is it okay if I push you down on this bed and hold you down while I roughly #### you, even though we haven't had sex at all yet?"

You should really think hard on the latter.

So, choreographed sex is required now?

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

 

[Rick James]

She put her hands on him and tried to push him away. He pinned her arms to her body and went to town.

Rape.

 

[Bucky86]

She put her hands on him and tried to push him away. He pinned her arms to her body and went to town.

Rape.

But she might enjoy rape play

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

Agreed. The problem is exactly that. He gave consent. She apparently gave consent. But perhaps unbeknownst to this guy, she decided in her mind at some point in the 9th inning that it didn't feel right, and so in her mind she revoked the consent. That's useless for everyone in that situation.

No, this isn't the conventional "blaming the victim" or "she asked for it." But once you give consent and put the wheels in motion, you are taking responsibility to revoke that consent at some point. I'd say your responsibility is to do that in a clear way. But if you put yourself AND THE GUY in the position described, and then for whatever reason don't try to communicate your revocation of consent clearly, you've failed both people involved. You've taken on responsibility at that point.

By the way, and I believed I communicated this on page 1, but I completely agree that if her physical push was a clear revocation of consent, and that the guy understood it to be that but persisted anyway, it's obviously rape and he's obviously a scumbag. Nobody here would defend a guy who does that.

deleted. OP is a little raw and I see no reason to make that worse.

 

[timschochet]

First off, of course it was rape. However, a question came up in my mind after reading the first few posts. The girl told PG it was the worst night of her life, but she was also reluctant to admit that she had been raped. My question is: is this healthy? If you were PG would it be better to go along with her and just be a sounding board if she wants to discuss it, or would it be better to say "You were raped; you need to realize and acknowledge it!" Many women don't want to admit to themselves they were raped because it makes them feel like a victim. So what is the proper response?

 

[jon_mx]

Apparently we need consent forms signed and notarized before, during and afterwards.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

First off, of course it was rape. However, a question came up in my mind after reading the first few posts. The girl told PG it was the worst night of her life, but she was also reluctant to admit that she had been raped. My question is: is this healthy? If you were PG would it be better to go along with her and just be a sounding board if she wants to discuss it, or would it be better to say "You were raped; you need to realize and acknowledge it!" Many women don't want to admit to themselves they were raped because it makes them feel like a victim. So what is the proper response?

The proper response is that you are willing to listen and to support her, and you think it is important that she speak with a qualified therapist to work through her feelings, which, being hers, are not at all wrong, they just are.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Apparently we need consent forms signed and notarized before, during and afterwards.

I think I may become a traveling, nocturnal notary. I can see good money in being available when the moment is right.

 

[SIDA!]

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters went to the Dennis Reynolds school of dating.

I'm beginning to think a bunch of posters here have never actually ####ed someone that wasn't their high school sweetheart.

But not all of us have ####ed a hooker

You don't have to #### a hooker to have a girl who likes it rough. I have been asked to choke, hit, use various implements on non-hookers. I have had girls get mad when I took their not right now to heart. I have had girls freeze up and get mad when you stopped because they "were almost there". This is the problem with this case. It is too ambiguous to call rape for anyone who has experience beyond missionary with the lights out and their socks on. She has to say No and do so forcefully. If she had there would be no doubt and not one guy here would call it anything but rape. She didn't do that.

Exactly.Hell, my woman asked me to "angry ####" her today while we are cuddling on the couch. So I asked her to give me a safe word. Granted, this is obviously not an apples to apples comparison to a situation involving sex between two people for the first time, but clearly some guys in this thread have a rather vanilla sex life and have a hard time understanding the perspective of those who have engaged in a little rough/hard sex.

I have experience with all the above, and I think the lack of consent is clear as described. If you believe there's more to the story and we shouldn't judge without more details or the guys POV, that's one thing. But IMO you are both putting the burden of consent too much on the woman in the situation.

SIDA - you said you asked your partner for a safe word, even when she was up front with you about what she wanted and is presumably someone you know pretty well. In doing that you were appropriately making sure there wouldn't be any guessing about consent. In what we know about this situation, the girl was never given that opportunity and certainly doesn't seem to have initiated the more physical encounter. Consent has to exist in an environment where the parties feel safe saying no, based on what's described I don't think you can say that existed. In fact the girls own words basically make it clear that's how she felt.

She "never had the opportunity" to revoke the implied consent she had given throughout? Come on. She had every opportunity, at several points.

FWIW - I had my wife who's a psychologist and former social worker read the thread. She basically rolled her eyes and said something along the lines that men can't understand how women feel in that situation.

Right. We aren't mind readers or emotionally in tune that is why she has a mouth. To, um, make sure the male who is trying to bed her can make sense of what she is consenting to and not consenting to...

I am supposed to convict a guy of rape when a psychologist and former social worker testifies on the stand that the dude can't understand women, but should have known that her consenting to being carried up the stairs and stripped naked with nary a peep of objection didn't imply consent to sex.

 

[timschochet]

The message I'm getting here is that she should have said "stop" or "no"- not that it would have prevented her from being raped , but it would have helped her win this message board debate months later. Surprised she didn't consider that at the time...

 

[SIDA!]

By the account in the OP, the two of them were mutually enjoying themselves and naked. And then she changed her mind. What if he asks prior to her changing her mind? Is he then supposed to continue to ask throughout intercourse? At what point do you put the onus on the girl to verbalize and/or unequivocally demonstrate her lack of consent?

[SIZE=14.4444446563721px]She is an adult female. Apparently, we can't.[/SIZE]

 

[dparker713]

First off, of course it was rape. However, a question came up in my mind after reading the first few posts. The girl told PG it was the worst night of her life, but she was also reluctant to admit that she had been raped. My question is: is this healthy? If you were PG would it be better to go along with her and just be a sounding board if she wants to discuss it, or would it be better to say "You were raped; you need to realize and acknowledge it!" Many women don't want to admit to themselves they were raped because it makes them feel like a victim. So what is the proper response?

Awful lot of paternalism in this thread.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Gotta agree with Otis at this point. "Affirmative consent" is the feminist version of "abstinence-only" sex ed in that they both share a completely unrealistic, ideological approach to sex.

I'm not suggesting in any way affirmative consent is required. But, you know, there's a pretty huge ocean between, "is it okay if I kiss you" to "Is it okay if I push you down on this bed and hold you down while I roughly #### you, even though we haven't had sex at all yet?"

You should really think hard on the latter.

Sorry, I should have been more clear about the point I was addressing. I posted earlier in the thread that I think this was probably a rape because of the pinning-her-down-after-she-resists part, so I agree with you on that one.

I just wanted to chime in on how silly the affirmative consent standard is. You would think that all adults would realize that this isn't how sex works, but apparently not.

 

[dparker713]

when mcgas money, #16, Eminence, Otis, and a guy repeatedly talking about "finger banging" while his hand is being pushed away spend all night arguing one side of an issue, its a safe bet going the opposite direction by default.

Well, you're now on the side of Timmmay....

 

[SIDA!]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

I have asked this a few times and no one seems to really care to give a genuine response.

Have you ever tried finger banging a girl only to have her squeeze her thighs, push your hand away or place her hand on your hand to stop you from progressing up her skirt or what not? What did you do?

Did you stop? Or did you ask for permission to try to touch her ##### again?

 

[SIDA!]

when mcgas money, #16, Eminence, Otis, and a guy repeatedly talking about "finger banging" while his hand is being pushed away spend all night arguing one side of an issue, its a safe bet going the opposite direction by default.

So, you are going to ignore the question, too?

Heaven forbid someone might think you are a sexual offender of some sort because you didn't ask for explicit permission to get your hands in her panties after she made the "obvious" attempt to withdraw consent...right?

 

[SIDA!]

when mcgas money, #16, Eminence, Otis, and a guy repeatedly talking about "finger banging" while his hand is being pushed away spend all night arguing one side of an issue, its a safe bet going the opposite direction by default.

Well, you're now on the side of Timmmay....

ROTFLMAO

 

[timschochet]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

I have asked this a few times and no one seems to really care to give a genuine response.

Have you ever tried finger banging a girl only to have her squeeze her thighs, push your hand away or place her hand on your hand to stop you from progressing up her skirt or what not? What did you do?

Did you stop? Or did you ask for permission to try to touch her ##### again?

I'll answer. Yes I've done that, and stopped temporarily, and started again. Because I could tell by her breathing and by her body movements that this was what she wanted. Body movements are important.

But I have NEVER had a girl try to push me away, and then pinned her body down, and then forced myself into her. I've never done that because that would be rape.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

I have asked this a few times and no one seems to really care to give a genuine response.

Have you ever tried finger banging a girl only to have her squeeze her thighs, push your hand away or place her hand on your hand to stop you from progressing up her skirt or what not? What did you do?

Did you stop? Or did you ask for permission to try to touch her ##### again?

I did respond actually. Football is about to start so I'm not going to look it up. If you keep pushing it and she's repeatedly making it clear she doesn't want it you are obviously crossing a boundary if you force it. If you keep making out and she eventually lets you there probably isn't an issue. Again, not really that complicated.

Okay Broncos game, peace out.

 

[Rick James]

By the account in the OP, the two of them were mutually enjoying themselves and naked. And then she changed her mind. What if he asks prior to her changing her mind? Is he then supposed to continue to ask throughout intercourse? At what point do you put the onus on the girl to verbalize and/or unequivocally demonstrate her lack of consent?

She is an adult female. Apparently, we can't.

She tried to push him away. HTH

 

[jon_mx]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

I have asked this a few times and no one seems to really care to give a genuine response.

Have you ever tried finger banging a girl only to have her squeeze her thighs, push your hand away or place her hand on your hand to stop you from progressing up her skirt or what not? What did you do?

Did you stop? Or did you ask for permission to try to touch her ##### again?

I'll answer. Yes I've done that, and stopped temporarily, and started again. Because I could tell by her breathing and by her body movements that this was what she wanted. Body movements are important.

But I have NEVER had a girl try to push me away, and then pinned her body down, and then forced myself into her. I've never done that because that would be rape.

No means no. What you did may have been raped too, and both would be looked at similarly under the law. You think you know what the girl was thinking, but if you were wrong, you could be found guilty of rape.

 

[SIDA!]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

I have asked this a few times and no one seems to really care to give a genuine response.

Have you ever tried finger banging a girl only to have her squeeze her thighs, push your hand away or place her hand on your hand to stop you from progressing up her skirt or what not? What did you do?

Did you stop? Or did you ask for permission to try to touch her ##### again?

I'll answer. Yes I've done that, and stopped temporarily, and started again. Because I could tell by her breathing and by her body movements that this was what she wanted. Body movements are important.

But I have NEVER had a girl try to push me away, and then pinned her body down, and then forced myself into her. I've never done that because that would be rape.

So, you sexually assaulted her because you could "read" her body language and breathing patterns?

In the OP it is never clear that the girl tried to push him away. This has been a point of contention. The truth of the matter is that were we to get an honest accounting of the events (not saying PG has been intentionally misleading...just not clear), 99% of us would probably all be on the same page.

 

[timschochet]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

I have asked this a few times and no one seems to really care to give a genuine response.

Have you ever tried finger banging a girl only to have her squeeze her thighs, push your hand away or place her hand on your hand to stop you from progressing up her skirt or what not? What did you do?

Did you stop? Or did you ask for permission to try to touch her ##### again?

I'll answer. Yes I've done that, and stopped temporarily, and started again. Because I could tell by her breathing and by her body movements that this was what she wanted. Body movements are important.

But I have NEVER had a girl try to push me away, and then pinned her body down, and then forced myself into her. I've never done that because that would be rape.

So, you sexually assaulted her because you could "read" her body language and breathing patterns?

In the OP it is never clear that the girl tried to push him away. This has been a point of contention. The truth of the matter is that were we to get an honest accounting of the events (not saying PG has been intentionally misleading...just not clear), 99% of us would probably all be on the same page.

It is clear to me that she pushed him away. Not sure which OP you were reading.

 

[timschochet]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

I have asked this a few times and no one seems to really care to give a genuine response.

Have you ever tried finger banging a girl only to have her squeeze her thighs, push your hand away or place her hand on your hand to stop you from progressing up her skirt or what not? What did you do?

Did you stop? Or did you ask for permission to try to touch her ##### again?

I'll answer. Yes I've done that, and stopped temporarily, and started again. Because I could tell by her breathing and by her body movements that this was what she wanted. Body movements are important.

But I have NEVER had a girl try to push me away, and then pinned her body down, and then forced myself into her. I've never done that because that would be rape.

No means no. What you did may have been raped too, and both would be looked at similarly under the law. You think you know what the girl was thinking, but if you were wrong, you could be found guilty of rape.

Sigh. When I wrote I started again, it was something like many minutes later, after lots of passionate kissing, and her touching me intimately at the same time. So no, it wasn't rape or assault or anything close to it. Which is why this entire analogy is, IMO, asinine.

 

[SIDA!]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

I have asked this a few times and no one seems to really care to give a genuine response.

Have you ever tried finger banging a girl only to have her squeeze her thighs, push your hand away or place her hand on your hand to stop you from progressing up her skirt or what not? What did you do?

Did you stop? Or did you ask for permission to try to touch her ##### again?

I did respond actually. Football is about to start so I'm not going to look it up. If you keep pushing it and she's repeatedly making it clear she doesn't want it you are obviously crossing a boundary if you force it. If you keep making out and she eventually lets you there probably isn't an issue. Again, not really that complicated.

Okay Broncos game, peace out.

I think this is kind of the rub, Arsenal. If a woman is saying no, but still allowing things to happen or is conveying that she is still receptive to the advances it gets tricky and gets back to how some of us argue that the onus is on the woman to be more clear in revoking her consent (especially if she refuses to do so verbally). She kinda sorta said no on the couch and then got carried up into the bedroom and undressed. She did not resist or revoke consent during this time. She kinda/sorta pushed him away as he got on top of her, but we really are not sure what happened there.

I think we all agree that had she pushed him away as if to get off, that would be rape. If she lightly placed her hands against his chest how can any of us reasonably interpret that as her being opposed to sex. And if while recounting the events that transpired she admits to being turned on and excited by his actions up to the point of him getting undressed, she most likely was sending nonverbal cues that positively reaffirmed what he was doing and encouraged him further.

Anyway, like you said, football is on. It is probably an appropriate stopping point since defensive players practically need a permission slip to tackle a player nowadays, too.

 

[dparker713]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

I have asked this a few times and no one seems to really care to give a genuine response.

Have you ever tried finger banging a girl only to have her squeeze her thighs, push your hand away or place her hand on your hand to stop you from progressing up her skirt or what not? What did you do?

Did you stop? Or did you ask for permission to try to touch her ##### again?

I'll answer. Yes I've done that, and stopped temporarily, and started again. Because I could tell by her breathing and by her body movements that this was what she wanted. Body movements are important.

But I have NEVER had a girl try to push me away, and then pinned her body down, and then forced myself into her. I've never done that because that would be rape.

So, you sexually assaulted her because you could "read" her body language and breathing patterns?

In the OP it is never clear that the girl tried to push him away. This has been a point of contention. The truth of the matter is that were we to get an honest accounting of the events (not saying PG has been intentionally misleading...just not clear), 99% of us would probably all be on the same page.

It is clear to me that she pushed him away. Not sure which OP you were reading.

She puts her hands on his chest to push him away

I'd like for you to parse the above sentence, paying particular attention to the verb.

 

[Otis]

The message I'm getting here is that she should have said "stop" or "no"- not that it would have prevented her from being raped .

I guess your crystal ball tells you he would have continue even if she said stop or no?

 

[SIDA!]

you guys are ridiculous.

This isn't complicated. Consent is a responsibility for both parties and not hard to navigate regardless of what type of activity you want to engage in. At least the majority of people that have commented seem to get that.

I have asked this a few times and no one seems to really care to give a genuine response.

Have you ever tried finger banging a girl only to have her squeeze her thighs, push your hand away or place her hand on your hand to stop you from progressing up her skirt or what not? What did you do?

Did you stop? Or did you ask for permission to try to touch her ##### again?

I'll answer. Yes I've done that, and stopped temporarily, and started again. Because I could tell by her breathing and by her body movements that this was what she wanted. Body movements are important.

But I have NEVER had a girl try to push me away, and then pinned her body down, and then forced myself into her. I've never done that because that would be rape.

No means no. What you did may have been raped too, and both would be looked at similarly under the law. You think you know what the girl was thinking, but if you were wrong, you could be found guilty of rape.

Sigh. When I wrote I started again, it was something like many minutes later, after lots of passionate kissing, and her touching me intimately at the same time. So no, it wasn't rape or assault or anything close to it. Which is why this entire analogy is, IMO, asinine.

But again, you didn't ask for consent. You just said...hey, she stopped me the first time so I am going to try again. You didn't explicitly ask for permission and you assumed that just because she was kissing and touching you back that that gave you consent to reach for the honey pot again.

The entire analogy is not asinine, but an entirely appropriate exercise to discuss and debate the real world application of consent/withdrawal of consent. I find it hard to believe you have only fingered one girl in your life and that if you have fingered more than one that they all went down the way you described.

The fact of the matter is that all of us have been physically intimate with a woman and advanced the level of intimacy after she non verbally withdrew consent with her hands, or body motion. And 99,9% of us never asked for explicit consent before we tried again. And undoubtedly the overwhelming majority of us have gotten to the point with many women where they eventually stop withdrawing consent and things transgress further. However, those of us with a decent amount of experience with women have undoubtedly went back to the well one too many times thinking that we had read the breathing patterns and body language right only to be emphatically told (verbally or otherwise) that our physical advances were not accepted or allowed.

You stated that you were able to read her body language and breathing. There are many instances where men, including myself, thought, "Oh, she is just being coy or doesn't want to appear to be a slut." So we wait it out and re-try again exactly as you said you have done. Except, they really mean "No". And the only reason we know that they really mean "No" is because they made a demonstrably clear withdrawal of consent.

As I and Otis and others have alluded to throughout. If you allow sexual intimacy to progress further and further along and then decide to stop it, the onus is on the person wanting to stop it to be markedly more clear and animated that they want it to stop. I don't think there is anything outlandish about that expectation.

If you are walking down the street and decide to randomly grope some woman, there is absolutely no expectation on anyone' part that the woman should have pre-emptively withdrew consent before the attack or that she can simply say "please don't do that" and all is well. Absolutely, not. She was sexually assaulted and the guy should be prosecuted.

If you are on a dance floor at a club and you and some random girl are grinding on the dance floor, do you need to ask for permission to try to put your hands in her panties? I guess some of you ask. Most guys aren't going to ask. So, they will try and go for the gold. I don't think most people are going to automatically assume that the guy sexually assaulted the woman. If he tries and she pushes his hand away but keeps dancing and he tries again. Well, it is kind of like your story about waiting a few minutes and trying again. If she pushes his hand away and walks off and then he follows her and tries again, I think that is clearly sexual assault.

And on and on and so forth.

Earlier in the thread, I alluded to the fact that if I have been banging a girl for 15 minutes with full penetration and she suddenly wants to stop having sex, I need to stop or else it is rape. In an instance where I have already been inside her and going to town, do you think that she has an obligation to be a little more emphatic in expressing her withdrawal of consent? Or do you think that she can simply close her eyes, go to a safe place, and I am supposed to automatically infer that she wants to stop?

 

[FUBAR]

"Or do you think that she can simply close her eyes, go to a safe place, and I am supposed to automatically infer that she wants to stop?"

Honestly? If my wife isn't participating or clearly enjoying herself, I stop. Not because of any concern of rape, but it ceases to be enjoyable.

 

[SIDA!]

FUBAR

I am pretty much the same way. But, we aren't really talking about sex with the wife. We are talking about a first time sexual encounter. I am pretty sure many of us have been in situations where we are really just looking to get our rocks off and are not emotionally invested in the woman we are with or all that concerned with whether or not she is having the best sex of her life.

My point was that the farther along the sexual intimacy spectrum you go, the the person desiring to stop has a greater onus or burden to make it clear that they want to stop. Do you agree or disagree?

 

[Bucky86]

FUBAR

I am pretty much the same way. But, we aren't really talking about sex with the wife. We are talking about a first time sexual encounter. I am pretty sure many of us have been in situations where we are really just looking to get our rocks off and are not emotionally invested in the woman we are with or all that concerned with whether or not she is having the best sex of her life.

My point was that the farther along the sexual intimacy spectrum you go, the the person desiring to stop has a greater onus or burden to make it clear that they want to stop. Do you agree or disagree?

All the more reason to stop if she puts her hands on your chest and tries to push you away.

 

[chauncey]

Apparently we need consent forms signed and notarized before, during and afterwards.

I think I may become a traveling, nocturnal notary. I can see good money in being available when the moment is right.

You could make a killing at swingers parties.

 

[Bucky86]

Apparently we need consent forms signed and notarized before, during and afterwards.

I think I may become a traveling, nocturnal notary. I can see good money in being available when the moment is right.

You could make a killing at swingers parties.

I'm going to corner the Vegas market.

 

[jon_mx]

Apparently we need consent forms signed and notarized before, during and afterwards.

I think I may become a traveling, nocturnal notary. I can see good money in being available when the moment is right.

You could make a killing at swingers parties.

The first 10 guys were ok, but that 11th guy raped me.

 

[cstu]

"Or do you think that she can simply close her eyes, go to a safe place, and I am supposed to automatically infer that she wants to stop?"

Honestly? If my wife isn't participating or clearly enjoying herself, I stop. Not because of any concern of rape, but it ceases to be enjoyable.

Sure, but you're not a date rapist.

 

[Slapdash]

when mcgas money, #16, Eminence, Otis, and a guy repeatedly talking about "finger banging" while his hand is being pushed away spend all night arguing one side of an issue, its a safe bet going the opposite direction by default.

Yep.

 

[Slapdash]

The message I'm getting here is that she should have said "stop" or "no"- not that it would have prevented her from being raped , but it would have helped her win this message board debate months later. Surprised she didn't consider that at the time...

Evidently saying that she didn't think it was a good idea isn't a strong enough stop for these clowns. In fact, it is part of a series of actions that keep getting described as her giving consent.

 

[VA703]

which page is the link to the picture on

 

[Slapdash]

Gotta agree with Otis at this point. "Affirmative consent" is the feminist version of "abstinence-only" sex ed in that they both share a completely unrealistic, ideological approach to sex.

I'm not suggesting in any way affirmative consent is required. But, you know, there's a pretty huge ocean between, "is it okay if I kiss you" to "Is it okay if I push you down on this bed and hold you down while I roughly #### you, even though we haven't had sex at all yet?"

You should really think hard on the latter.

Sorry, I should have been more clear about the point I was addressing. I posted earlier in the thread that I think this was probably a rape because of the pinning-her-down-after-she-resists part, so I agree with you on that one.

I just wanted to chime in on how silly the affirmative consent standard is. You would think that all adults would realize that this isn't how sex works, but apparently not.

We're not talking about "how sex works" but how "hooking up works". It is pretty clear women have problems with how the latter is going.

 

[Tom Skerritt]

But I thought that 50 Shades if Gray is basically telling all of us men that women want to be dominated in the bedroom. No?

 

[SIDA!]

The message I'm getting here is that she should have said "stop" or "no"- not that it would have prevented her from being raped , but it would have helped her win this message board debate months later. Surprised she didn't consider that at the time...

Evidently saying that she didn't think it was a good idea isn't a strong enough stop for these clowns. In fact, it is part of a series of actions that keep getting described as her giving consent.

So, to be absolutely clear here, which scenario applies to you:

1. You have never had a woman withdraw consent either verbally or non verbally as you tried to advance the level of intimacy from kissing to intercourse

2. You have had a woman withdraw consent either verbally or non verbally and then you waited and reattempted without asking for explicit consent

3. You have made out with a woman, had her withdraw consent in some fashion and then said, "Hey, five minutes ago you said,"No". Can I touch your ##### now?"

 

[jon_mx]

The message I'm getting here is that she should have said "stop" or "no"- not that it would have prevented her from being raped , but it would have helped her win this message board debate months later. Surprised she didn't consider that at the time...

Evidently saying that she didn't think it was a good idea isn't a strong enough stop for these clowns. In fact, it is part of a series of actions that keep getting described as her giving consent.

Guys are not that good at picking up hints. IMHO, unless there is a real threat of violence, the female should have the obligation to vocally say 'no' in order to claim rape. Not at all defending the guy's action in this case, but that should be the law. Many of us probably had a situation where the woman might not have been all that into it and could have with the ultra-feminist point of view, be guilty of rape. Especially if any alcohol was involved, that makes any sexual encounter possibly rape.

 

[johnnycakes]

Just wondering if there is any difference in demographics with regard to the responses...

For example, it appears at first blush that those living in metropolitan areas in the East seem to think there was no rape... are the people who think that a rape occurred in more Midwestern areas of the country?