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timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (1 Viewer)

Benghazi is another example. There should have been, from the outset, two key discussions with regard to this issue:

1. Did our government perform incompetently? And if it did, what steps can be taken to prevent similar tragedies in the future?

2. What exactly is our government up to in Libya, and are our policies working out, or should we be changing them?

If you can find any discussion of these two issues in depth anywhere, especially in this forum, please let me know because I'd sure like to read them. Instead, 99% of the posts here and elsewhere was once again, as it always is, devoted to who wins and who loses. In order for the Republicans to win this one, Obama and Hillary's mistakes and errors in judgment have to be maximized to demonstrate their total incompetence, or even worse, their complicity. For the Democrats to win this one, all of the mistakes and errors in judgment have to be minimized so that Obama and Hillary did nothing wrong and everything right. It should be clear to any thinking person who has read about this issue that neither of these suppositions is correct, and yet this is the either-or that we have been forced into. All discussion on this matter has become so partisan by now that we will never achieve any truth about it. And as for the issues I described above, apparently they're no longer relevant to anyone.

 
Tim I offer you an example above, Obama stated the cost at 900 bill, the CBO says it's 2+ trill, those quotes are directly from the WH & CBO. We don't have to listen to the NYT or Limbaugb these days, see for yourself.
1. Obama stated, before the bill was passed, it would be 900 billion.

2. CBO stated, at the time the bill was passed, it would be over 2 trillion.

3. CBO has now stated that it will be 20% less than they originally projected.

If you're going to criticize Obama for misleading the public on this, the time to do so is between #1 and #2. However, I suspect that there is a more benign explanation for the discrepancy- probably some different way of interpreting numbers. I don't know, but I would like to know.

But criticizing Obama NOW for misleading the public on this, when the CBO projections have been reduced by 20%, makes no logical sense, unless your soul purpose is to criticize Obama (and thus "win" for the Republicans.)

 
Yet another example were the Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown discussions. At the core of those discussions lies the question: are young black males the victims of institutionalized racism in this country? And if so, what should be done about it?

This question was pre-assumed by nearly everyone involved in both of those discussions. Those who believe that blacks are victims immediately sided with Martin and Brown and looked for ways to find their killers guilty of crimes. Those who believe that blacks are not victims immediately sided with their killers and looked for ways to exonerate them. Both sides cherry picked the various facts that came out, and reached conclusions long before there were enough facts to do so. The actual central issue of racism was never really explored; it was simply assumed to be true for one side and false for the other. Small wonder that both arguments bogged down into excruciating detail, along with name calling, that made both threads almost impossible to read in the end.

 
Tim I offer you an example above, Obama stated the cost at 900 bill, the CBO says it's 2+ trill, those quotes are directly from the WH & CBO. We don't have to listen to the NYT or Limbaugb these days, see for yourself.
1. Obama stated, before the bill was passed, it would be 900 billion.

2. CBO stated, at the time the bill was passed, it would be over 2 trillion.

3. CBO has now stated that it will be 20% less than they originally projected.

If you're going to criticize Obama for misleading the public on this, the time to do so is between #1 and #2. However, I suspect that there is a more benign explanation for the discrepancy- probably some different way of interpreting numbers. I don't know, but I would like to know.

But criticizing Obama NOW for misleading the public on this, when the CBO projections have been reduced by 20%, makes no logical sense, unless your soul purpose is to criticize Obama (and thus "win" for the Republicans.)
Tim, that happened, it happened all over the country.

 
Tim I offer you an example above, Obama stated the cost at 900 bill, the CBO says it's 2+ trill, those quotes are directly from the WH & CBO. We don't have to listen to the NYT or Limbaugb these days, see for yourself.
1. Obama stated, before the bill was passed, it would be 900 billion.

2. CBO stated, at the time the bill was passed, it would be over 2 trillion.

3. CBO has now stated that it will be 20% less than they originally projected.

If you're going to criticize Obama for misleading the public on this, the time to do so is between #1 and #2. However, I suspect that there is a more benign explanation for the discrepancy- probably some different way of interpreting numbers. I don't know, but I would like to know.

But criticizing Obama NOW for misleading the public on this, when the CBO projections have been reduced by 20%, makes no logical sense, unless your soul purpose is to criticize Obama (and thus "win" for the Republicans.)
Tim, that happened, it happened all over the country.
OK. Did Obama or the Democrats at the time give a reason for the difference in costs? I'm sure they must have offered one. What was it?

 
Benghazi is another example. There should have been, from the outset, two key discussions with regard to this issue:

1. Did our government perform incompetently? And if it did, what steps can be taken to prevent similar tragedies in the future?

2. What exactly is our government up to in Libya, and are our policies working out, or should we be changing them?

If you can find any discussion of these two issues in depth anywhere, especially in this forum, please let me know because I'd sure like to read them. Instead, 99% of the posts here and elsewhere was once again, as it always is, devoted to who wins and who loses. In order for the Republicans to win this one, Obama and Hillary's mistakes and errors in judgment have to be maximized to demonstrate their total incompetence, or even worse, their complicity. For the Democrats to win this one, all of the mistakes and errors in judgment have to be minimized so that Obama and Hillary did nothing wrong and everything right. It should be clear to any thinking person who has read about this issue that neither of these suppositions is correct, and yet this is the either-or that we have been forced into. All discussion on this matter has become so partisan by now that we will never achieve any truth about it. And as for the issues I described above, apparently they're no longer relevant to anyone.
Exactly! I find myself constantly saying things like:

"the truth is always somewhere in the middle"

"voting in this country is like choosing between the lesser of 2 evils"

"I hate our 2-party system, and wish there were a viable third option" (though I'm not sure this would really solve anything...)

 
OK, but I don't hate our two party system. I'm a bit frustrated with how it's been going for the last several years, but I remain convinced that it's still the best approach and that a viable third party would only mess things up further.

Instead, I like Bill Clinton's original concept of a "third way", which was intended to be about promoting moderation within the two party system rather than seeking an alternative to it. Now Clinton, once he got into office, abandoned the Third Way approach and became as partisan as his predecessors, but it's still not a bad idea at all, IMO.

 
A bit confused. GHW Bush and Clinton were probably the least partisan of any post 1960 president. Obama and GW were the most partisan.

 
Tim I offer you an example above, Obama stated the cost at 900 bill, the CBO says it's 2+ trill, those quotes are directly from the WH & CBO. We don't have to listen to the NYT or Limbaugb these days, see for yourself.
1. Obama stated, before the bill was passed, it would be 900 billion.

2. CBO stated, at the time the bill was passed, it would be over 2 trillion.

3. CBO has now stated that it will be 20% less than they originally projected.

If you're going to criticize Obama for misleading the public on this, the time to do so is between #1 and #2. However, I suspect that there is a more benign explanation for the discrepancy- probably some different way of interpreting numbers. I don't know, but I would like to know.

But criticizing Obama NOW for misleading the public on this, when the CBO projections have been reduced by 20%, makes no logical sense, unless your soul purpose is to criticize Obama (and thus "win" for the Republicans.)
Tim, that happened, it happened all over the country.
OK. Did Obama or the Democrats at the time give a reason for the difference in costs? I'm sure they must have offered one. What was it?
Look at Obama's speech on the WH's own website, what do you see?

He doesn't explain the discrepancy because he does not acknowledge it. He pretends it does not exist.

 
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Tim I offer you an example above, Obama stated the cost at 900 bill, the CBO says it's 2+ trill, those quotes are directly from the WH & CBO. We don't have to listen to the NYT or Limbaugb these days, see for yourself.
1. Obama stated, before the bill was passed, it would be 900 billion.

2. CBO stated, at the time the bill was passed, it would be over 2 trillion.

3. CBO has now stated that it will be 20% less than they originally projected.

If you're going to criticize Obama for misleading the public on this, the time to do so is between #1 and #2. However, I suspect that there is a more benign explanation for the discrepancy- probably some different way of interpreting numbers. I don't know, but I would like to know.

But criticizing Obama NOW for misleading the public on this, when the CBO projections have been reduced by 20%, makes no logical sense, unless your soul purpose is to criticize Obama (and thus "win" for the Republicans.)
Tim, that happened, it happened all over the country.
OK. Did Obama or the Democrats at the time give a reason for the difference in costs? I'm sure they must have offered one. What was it?
Look at Obama's speech on the WH's own website, what do you see?

He doesn't explain the discrepancy because he does not acknowledge it. He pretends it does not exist.
OK, since I don't know the answer, I am left with two possibilities:

1. Barack Obama is either a liar, a fool, or both, and he deliberately cut the price in half when selling this law to the public, hoping nobody would notice.

2. There is a more reasonable explanation somewhere for the discrepancy, and it involves a difference in interpretation.

I suspect the answer is #2, but I don't know for sure.

 
Tim I offer you an example above, Obama stated the cost at 900 bill, the CBO says it's 2+ trill, those quotes are directly from the WH & CBO. We don't have to listen to the NYT or Limbaugb these days, see for yourself.
1. Obama stated, before the bill was passed, it would be 900 billion.

2. CBO stated, at the time the bill was passed, it would be over 2 trillion.

3. CBO has now stated that it will be 20% less than they originally projected.

If you're going to criticize Obama for misleading the public on this, the time to do so is between #1 and #2. However, I suspect that there is a more benign explanation for the discrepancy- probably some different way of interpreting numbers. I don't know, but I would like to know.

But criticizing Obama NOW for misleading the public on this, when the CBO projections have been reduced by 20%, makes no logical sense, unless your soul purpose is to criticize Obama (and thus "win" for the Republicans.)
Tim, that happened, it happened all over the country.
OK. Did Obama or the Democrats at the time give a reason for the difference in costs? I'm sure they must have offered one. What was it?
Look at Obama's speech on the WH's own website, what do you see?

He doesn't explain the discrepancy because he does not acknowledge it. He pretends it does not exist.
OK, since I don't know the answer, I am left with two possibilities:

1. Barack Obama is either a liar, a fool, or both, and he deliberately cut the price in half when selling this law to the public, hoping nobody would notice.

2. There is a more reasonable explanation somewhere for the discrepancy, and it involves a difference in interpretation.

I suspect the answer is #2, but I don't know for sure.
Obama is a liar. He's not a fool.

 
Tim I offer you an example above, Obama stated the cost at 900 bill, the CBO says it's 2+ trill, those quotes are directly from the WH & CBO. We don't have to listen to the NYT or Limbaugb these days, see for yourself.
1. Obama stated, before the bill was passed, it would be 900 billion.

2. CBO stated, at the time the bill was passed, it would be over 2 trillion.

3. CBO has now stated that it will be 20% less than they originally projected.

If you're going to criticize Obama for misleading the public on this, the time to do so is between #1 and #2. However, I suspect that there is a more benign explanation for the discrepancy- probably some different way of interpreting numbers. I don't know, but I would like to know.

But criticizing Obama NOW for misleading the public on this, when the CBO projections have been reduced by 20%, makes no logical sense, unless your soul purpose is to criticize Obama (and thus "win" for the Republicans.)
Tim, that happened, it happened all over the country.
OK. Did Obama or the Democrats at the time give a reason for the difference in costs? I'm sure they must have offered one. What was it?
Look at Obama's speech on the WH's own website, what do you see?

He doesn't explain the discrepancy because he does not acknowledge it. He pretends it does not exist.
OK, since I don't know the answer, I am left with two possibilities:

1. Barack Obama is either a liar, a fool, or both, and he deliberately cut the price in half when selling this law to the public, hoping nobody would notice.

2. There is a more reasonable explanation somewhere for the discrepancy, and it involves a difference in interpretation.

I suspect the answer is #2, but I don't know for sure.
Obama is a liar. He's not a fool.
I will actually point out that on MSNBC it was speculated that the President may have been lied to for the good of the bill and that that was a "good" thing, that it was for the greater good. Considering some of the machiavellian and Malthusian types we see running around like Emanuel and Grueber and Reich, I'm not going to write that off.

I don't entirely discount this possibility. There is such a thing as a willing dupe and I think it's quite possible that Obama is the sort who goes where he's told, smiles, and delivers his lines, and spends most of his energy raising money.

 
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Well, honestly, I don't believe any of this. Unfortunately I don't know enough about this subject. But I have a very strong hunch that if I were to put this question to an informed progressive like Bottomfeeder Sports, I would receive a reason for the discrepancy which has nothing to do with the reasons that you're suggesting.

 
OK, but I don't hate our two party system. I'm a bit frustrated with how it's been going for the last several years, but I remain convinced that it's still the best approach and that a viable third party would only mess things up further.

Instead, I like Bill Clinton's original concept of a "third way", which was intended to be about promoting moderation within the two party system rather than seeking an alternative to it. Now Clinton, once he got into office, abandoned the Third Way approach and became as partisan as his predecessors, but it's still not a bad idea at all, IMO.
Like I hinted at above, I tend to agree that a third party is probably not the answer. I like to think of it like a pendulum. Once side gets into power for a bit, and then eventually people see us going too far right or left, then the pendulum swings back. Hopefully, the average, long term, is the moderate middle. It just sort of makes the short term suck most of the time, unless you happen to be sitting at one of the extremes. Then, I suppose you're happy about half of the time, and pissed the other half. (Like a certain wizard...)

 
See, here is MY theory- and I could be way off on this:

I don't think Paul created this non-intervention stuff, or whatever you want to call it- I think he sensed it in the air, and is the first major politician to try to take advantage of it. His dad was a full-blown isolationist, but that's a different animal. What I would call "neo-isolationism" is an attitude that's becoming more and more popular ever since the Iraq War became thought of as a mistake rather than a success. A lot conservatives who I know, who were 100% behind that war 10 years ago, now tell me that they shy away from ANY military intervention anywhere. The old guard of McCain, Graham, Bolton etc., appear to be fading- you never hear other Republicans joining them in their particular criticism against Obama.

But it's more than that even. If you've read this forum over the last several years you'll notice that this neo-isolationism is becoming more and more popular among liberals and conservatives alike. It kept cropping up during the NSA discussions we've had. It comes up whenever Israel is discussed. It gets a lot of play among intellectuals, and yet there is also an attraction to these ideas that come from the more simple nativist types.

But what I don't know is how popular these ideas are among the conservative base: the Tea Party types and religious conservatives who make up the grass roots of the GOP. As I wrote, they've spent the last 60+ years supporting nearly every military action, and they have tended to equate that support with patriotism and love of country. Have they changed their minds about this enough so that they will be receptive to the ideas of a Rand Paul? I think we're about to find out.
I will be very intersting to see how this plays out but you can already see(for example)Ted Cruz not being a fan of how Paul talked in his foreign policy speech(the one I posted,watch it if you get a chance)so I fully expect this thinking to hold a while amongst the types you are talking about.I just don't see that shift coming and I don't think Paul will be able to get them on board unless his changes his thinking.I see Paul as being closer to what Obama is doing now more so over what the base wants done.
Would Rand use drone strikes, air cover and special ops to strike within Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria and Yemen?

Yes or no?
He seems to say yes for terrorist activities.

it was interesting to see Rand Paul talk approvingly yesterday about … launching drone strikes.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) late Tuesday said if the United States discovered any of the released Guantanamo Bay prisoners were planning a terrorist attack, “there would be a drone with their name on it.”

On Fox News’s “Your World with Neil Cavuto,” Paul was asked if he advocates tracking them down and killing them if they plot against the U.S. “I would say that there would be a drone with their name on it,” replied Paul, who has been somewhat critical of portions of President Obama’s drone program.
That is disappointing

 
See, here is MY theory- and I could be way off on this:

I don't think Paul created this non-intervention stuff, or whatever you want to call it- I think he sensed it in the air, and is the first major politician to try to take advantage of it. His dad was a full-blown isolationist, but that's a different animal. What I would call "neo-isolationism" is an attitude that's becoming more and more popular ever since the Iraq War became thought of as a mistake rather than a success. A lot conservatives who I know, who were 100% behind that war 10 years ago, now tell me that they shy away from ANY military intervention anywhere. The old guard of McCain, Graham, Bolton etc., appear to be fading- you never hear other Republicans joining them in their particular criticism against Obama.

But it's more than that even. If you've read this forum over the last several years you'll notice that this neo-isolationism is becoming more and more popular among liberals and conservatives alike. It kept cropping up during the NSA discussions we've had. It comes up whenever Israel is discussed. It gets a lot of play among intellectuals, and yet there is also an attraction to these ideas that come from the more simple nativist types.

But what I don't know is how popular these ideas are among the conservative base: the Tea Party types and religious conservatives who make up the grass roots of the GOP. As I wrote, they've spent the last 60+ years supporting nearly every military action, and they have tended to equate that support with patriotism and love of country. Have they changed their minds about this enough so that they will be receptive to the ideas of a Rand Paul? I think we're about to find out.
I will be very intersting to see how this plays out but you can already see(for example)Ted Cruz not being a fan of how Paul talked in his foreign policy speech(the one I posted,watch it if you get a chance)so I fully expect this thinking to hold a while amongst the types you are talking about.I just don't see that shift coming and I don't think Paul will be able to get them on board unless his changes his thinking.I see Paul as being closer to what Obama is doing now more so over what the base wants done.
Would Rand use drone strikes, air cover and special ops to strike within Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria and Yemen?

Yes or no?
He seems to say yes for terrorist activities.

it was interesting to see Rand Paul talk approvingly yesterday about … launching drone strikes.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) late Tuesday said if the United States discovered any of the released Guantanamo Bay prisoners were planning a terrorist attack, “there would be a drone with their name on it.”

On Fox News’s “Your World with Neil Cavuto,” Paul was asked if he advocates tracking them down and killing them if they plot against the U.S. “I would say that there would be a drone with their name on it,” replied Paul, who has been somewhat critical of portions of President Obama’s drone program.
Ok - News Alert: that's interventionist.

Not "non-interventionist."
Thank you. From my perspective, one gained by listening to Rand and not the media, is that the only way he fundamentaly differs from mainstream GOP on FP is that he beleives congress needs to declare war (and this is only because it is written in the constitution). And surley, as with any individual who thinks 'they know best', his application of the military to different scinearioes may differ from others within the party, just as Graham's may differ from McCain's. Just as the tax and spend liberal who wants to raise $1Trillion in revenue does not fundamentaly differ from the liberal who wants to raise $1.5Trillion, they are philosophically in agreement, it is just a matter of which dictator will give us which policy.

He voted for sanctions on Iran, he (at least) expressed interest in giving monetary and military aid to Ukrain and supported Russian sanctions, he supports bombing ISIS-- those are all mainstream positions--, he even took one out of Israel's playbook (continuing to build settlements so long as Hamas is elected in Gaza) in that he called for ending foreign aid to Palestine until Hamas was no longer included in the government. He doesn't beleive sanctions are an act of war, etc, etc, yada yada,... Rand is not a non-interventionist, any following he gathers with his FP rhetoric will not be one that sways his followers towards non-interventionism, if anything, he has taken (weak) supporters of his father and converted them to red-team interventionist...

 
Tim I offer you an example above, Obama stated the cost at 900 bill, the CBO says it's 2+ trill, those quotes are directly from the WH & CBO. We don't have to listen to the NYT or Limbaugb these days, see for yourself.
1. Obama stated, before the bill was passed, it would be 900 billion.

2. CBO stated, at the time the bill was passed, it would be over 2 trillion.

3. CBO has now stated that it will be 20% less than they originally projected.

If you're going to criticize Obama for misleading the public on this, the time to do so is between #1 and #2. However, I suspect that there is a more benign explanation for the discrepancy- probably some different way of interpreting numbers. I don't know, but I would like to know.

But criticizing Obama NOW for misleading the public on this, when the CBO projections have been reduced by 20%, makes no logical sense, unless your soul purpose is to criticize Obama (and thus "win" for the Republicans.)
Tim, that happened, it happened all over the country.
OK. Did Obama or the Democrats at the time give a reason for the difference in costs? I'm sure they must have offered one. What was it?
Look at Obama's speech on the WH's own website, what do you see?

He doesn't explain the discrepancy because he does not acknowledge it. He pretends it does not exist.
OK, since I don't know the answer, I am left with two possibilities:

1. Barack Obama is either a liar, a fool, or both, and he deliberately cut the price in half when selling this law to the public, hoping nobody would notice.

2. There is a more reasonable explanation somewhere for the discrepancy, and it involves a difference in interpretation.

I suspect the answer is #2, but I don't know for sure.
Obama is a liar. He's not a fool.
I will actually point out that on MSNBC it was speculated that the President may have been lied to for the good of the bill and that that was a "good" thing, that it was for the greater good. Considering some of the machiavellian and Malthusian types we see running around like Emanuel and Grueber and Reich, I'm not going to write that off.

I don't entirely discount this possibility. There is such a thing as a willing dupe and I think it's quite possible that Obama is the sort who goes where he's told, smiles, and delivers his lines, and spends most of his energy raising money.
So who's pulling the strings?

 
I actually got into an argument with my dad on this very subject today. He's a big supporter of Bibi; I am not.

But it doesn't matter anyhow because Likud is still going to win. Netanyahu is going to be there for a while, and he and Obama will just have to deal with each other. They don't like each other much, but anyone who is expecting some major breach between the USA and Israel, don't hold your breath anytime soon. Israel is not going to do anything unilaterally to Iran no matter how much Bibi huffs and puffs. As to whether or not the USA can really prevent Iran from getting nukes through negotiations, that remains to be seen.

But I think we have to acknowledge the fact that, with the sole exception of South Africa in 1990, history says that economic sanctions does not bring about democratic change in government. We keep trying it- we tried it with China from 1948 to 1972, in Cuba from 1960 to 2015, in Iran from 1979 to 2015, and IT NEVER WORKS. Only, as I wrote, in South Africa, and in that case the sanctions only lasted a couple of years so there were probably more important factors. Iran is a terrible regime but we're not going to get rid of it through sanctions. So we ought to try something different.

 
Excellent article in The Atlantic about Netanyahu:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/01/Netanyahu-vs-Obama-on-Iran/384849/

Benjamin Netanyahu believes he has just one job, and that is to stop Iran from getting hold of nuclear weapons. He might argue that this description of his mission as Israel’s prime minister is too limiting, though such an argument would not be particularly credible. Israel’s very existence, he has argued, consistently, and at times convincingly, is predicated on stopping Iran, a country ruled by a regime that seeks both Israel’s annihilation and the means to carry it out.

Netanyahu’s options are limited. A country possessing scientific knowledge, material resources, and the will to cross the nuclear threshold is very difficult to stop. One way for Netanyahu to stop Iran, or to slow down its progress toward a bomb, would be to launch a preventative attack on its nuclear facilities. He has threatened to do so (credibly, according to officials of the Obama administration) but he has not yet done it, perhaps because American warnings against such a strike have been dire; perhaps because he understands that such an attack might not work; or perhaps because he is by nature cautious, despite his rhetoric.

Whatever the case, the only other way for Netanyahu to stop Iran would be to convince the president of the United States, the leader of the nation that is Israel’s closest ally and most crucial benefactor, to confront Iran decisively. An Israeli strike could theoretically set back Iran’s nuclear program, but only the U.S. has the military capabilities to set back the program in anything approaching a semi-permanent way. And only the United States has the throw-weight to organize sanctions regimes of lasting consequence.

For several years, Netanyahu and President Obama, despite their mutual loathing, worked more or less in tandem on this issue. Netanyahu traveled the world arguing for stringent sanctions, and Obama did much the same. In fact, Obama used Netanyahu’s tough posture to America’s advantage: On several occasions, Obama and officials in his administration played good cop/bad cop, telling other world leaders that toughening sanctions on Iran would be the only way to forestall an Israeli attack, and this line of argument often proved effective.

Obama, who has argued that a nuclear Iran poses a “profound” national-security threat to the U.S., believed that pressure was a means to an end—the end, of course, being negotiations. A negotiated neutralization of the Iranian nuclear threat would be in the best interests of the U.S. and its Middle East allies, he argued, and he has worked assiduously to keep Netanyahu from taking precipitous action against Iran’s nuclear facilities, even as he used the threat to his advantage.

Netanyahu does not appear to believe that negotiations will bring about an end to the Iranian threat. He believes that any settlement agreed to by Ayatollah Khamenei, the Iranian supreme leader, would necessarily be, from the Israeli perspective, hopelessly weak. There is good reason to be sympathetic to this argument. Doubts about Iranian intentions are warranted, as is skepticism about the zeal with which the West is seeking such an agreement. But there is good reason to sympathize with Obama and his negotiators as well. They believe that a negotiated settlement that promises to keep Iran perpetually a year or more from the nuclear threshold, and provides for intrusive inspections of Iranian facilities, is far from perfect, but better than the alternative, which is eventual confrontation.

Thus, a conundrum, one with greater consequences for Netanyahu and his country than for Obama and his, because of Israel’s small size, relative lack of power, and close physical proximity to Iran.

Faced with this conundrum—an American president who he believes is willing to strike a flawed deal with Iran—Netanyahu has made the second-worst choice he could make. He has not attacked Iran, which is good—an Israeli attack holds the promise of disaster—but he has decided to ruin his relations with Obama.

To be sure, the Obama administration does not make it particularly easy on Netanyahu. For instance, early in Obama's first term, senior officials in his administration were quasi-openly rooting for Tzipi Livni to replace him as prime minister.

But, unfortunately for Netanyahu, it is incumbent upon the junior partner in the Israel-U.S. relationship to maintain an even keel in the relationship. Netanyahu, grappling with a fear that Obama will go wobbly on Iran, could have tried a long time ago to create a discreet, continuous, and respectful dialogue in advance of the conclusion of negotiations, in order to try to shape the president’s thinking, and—this is important—to work with Obama on issues that interest the United States (advancing the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, for instance, by taking the initiative once in a blue moon) in order to make the American side understand that his government is interested in giving, not merely in taking.

Instead, Netanyahu chose to make a desperate-seeming end-run around the president and attempted to appeal directly to Congress to oppose a decision Obama has not yet made. In a plan concocted by Ron Dermer, who serves as Netanyahu’s ambassador to the U.S., the speaker of the House of Representatives, John Boehner, invited Netanyahu to address Congress on the dangers of a nuclear deal and the need for tougher sanctions, without first informing the White House.

The flaws in this approach are many. Obama administration officials have already felt disrespected by Netanyahu (recall his condescending, and public, Oval Office lecture to the president), and so this latest violation of protocol set their teeth on edge. Another flaw: The Obama administration is trying to create conditions so that if the negotiations do collapse, it will be the Iranians who get the blame, not the Americans. Legislating new sanctions—even delayed, triggered sanctions—would give the Iranians the excuse to quit negotiations and blame the U.S. Such a situation would not help Obama maintain the strong international sanctions regime that has stayed in place through the past year of talks. (Actually passing legislation now also seems superfluous; only the most obtuse Iranian leader would fail to realize that a failure in the negotiations process would lead to more sanctions.)

An even more obvious flaw: John Boehner is not the commander-in-chief, and does not make U.S. foreign policy. Netanyahu might find Boehner’s approach to Iran more politically and emotionally satisfying than Obama’s, but this is irrelevant. Yes, Congress can pass new sanctions against Iran, but it is the executive branch that drives U.S. Iran policy. Barack Obama will be president for two more years, and it makes absolutely no sense for an Israeli leader to side so ostentatiously with a sitting American president’s domestic political opposition.

Netanyahu appears to believe that his mission is singular, but Israeli prime ministers, in fact, have two main tasks. The first is to protect their country from existential threats. The second: To work very hard to stay on the good side of the president and people of the United States. Success in accomplishing this first task is sometimes predicated on achieving this second task.

Israel has been, for several decades, a bipartisan cause in Washington. Bipartisan support accounts for the ease with which Israeli prime ministers have historically been heard in Washington; it accounts for the generous aid packages Israel receives; and it also explains America’s commitment to maintaining Israel’s qualitative military edge.

Netanyahu’s management of his relationship with Obama threatens the bipartisan nature of Israel’s American support. His Dermer-inspired, Boehner-enabled end-run has alienated three crucially important constituencies. First, the administration itself: Netanyahu's estrangement from the Obama White House now appears to be permanent. It will be very difficult for Netanyahu to make the White House hear his criticisms of whatever deal may one day be reached with Iran.

Netanyahu has also alienated many elected Democrats, including Jewish Democrats on Capitol Hill. One Jewish member of Congress told me that he felt humiliated and angered by Netanyahu’s ploy to address Congress “behind the president’s back.” A non-Jewish Democratic elected official texted me over the weekend to say that the damage Netanyahu is doing to Israel’s relationship with the U.S. may be “irreparable.”

A larger group that Netanyahu risks alienating is American Jewry, or at least the strong majority of American Jews that has voted for Obama twice. Netanyahu’s decision to pit U.S. political party against U.S. political party—because that is what his end-run does—puts American Jewish supporters of Israel in a messy, uncomfortable spot, and it is not in Israel's interest to place American Jews in a position in which they have to choose between their president and the leader of a Jewish state whose behavior is making them queasy.

Why doesn’t Netanyahu understand that alienating Democrats is not in the best interest of his country? From what I can tell, he doubts that Democrats are—or will be shortly—a natural constituency for Israel, and he clearly believes that Obama is a genuine adversary. As I reported last year, in an article that got more attention for a poultry-related epithet an administration official directed at Netanyahu than anything else, Netanyahu has told people he has “written off” Obama.

I should have, at the time, explored the slightly unreal notion that an Israeli prime minister would even contemplate “writing off” an American president (though I did predict that Netanyahu would take his case directly to Congress). I still don’t understand Netanyahu’s thinking. It is immaterial whether an Israeli prime minister finds an American president agreeable or not. A sitting president cannot be written off by a small, dependent ally, without terrible consequences.

As Ron Dermer's predecessor in Washington, Michael Oren, said in reaction to this latest Netanyahu blow-up: "It's advisable to cancel the speech to Congress so as not to cause a rift with the American government. Much responsibility and reasoned political behavior are needed to guard interests in the White House."

Oren, though appointed ambassador by Netanyahu, is now running for Knesset on another party's line. When he was in Washington, he worried more about the state of Israel's bipartisan support than almost any other issue. He recently criticized Netanyahu, albeit indirectly, for risking Israel's relations with the U.S.: "Today, more than ever, it is clear that Israel-U.S. relations are the foundation of any economic, security, and diplomatic approach. It is our responsibility to strengthen those ties immediately."

There is hypocrisy in the discussion of the Netanyahu-Boehner end-run. It is not unprecedented for foreign leaders to lobby Congress directly; the Arab states opposed to Iran do it all the time, and the British prime minister, David Cameron, lobbied Congress earlier this month on behalf of Obama’s Iran policy, and against the arguments of the Republicans.

But the manner and execution and overall tone-deafness of Netanyahu’s recent ploy suggest that he—and his current ambassador—don’t understand how to manage Israel’s relationships in Washington. Netanyahu wants a role in shaping the Iranian nuclear agreement, should one materialize. His recent actions suggest that he doesn't quite know what he's doing.

 
Oh and jon, for clarification purposes: The Atlantic, which I linked, is a reputable source for news and opinion. World Net Daily, which was used to attack President Obama in the Netanyahu thread is not. Just so you know.

 
Here is a playlist of songs I listened to today:

Brinsley Schwarz- "Country Girl"

Eels- "Ugly Love"

The Kinks- "The Village Green Preservation Society"

Graham Parker- "Temporary Beauty"

Norah Jones- "Sunrise"

The Byrds- "The Bells of Rhymney"

Johnny Cash- "Solitary Man"

The Cars- "Double Life"

Elton John- "Madman Across the Water"

Paul Pena- "Jet Airliner"

Warren Zevon- "Tenderness on the Block"

Todd Snider- "Greencastle Blues"

John Hiatt- "Is Anybody There?"

Oysterband- "Love Will Tear Us Apart"

Ricky Lee Jones- "The Horses"

Thin Lizzy- "She Knows"

Truth & Salvage Co.- "101"

The Rolling Stones- "Sweet Black Angel"

 
Oh and jon, for clarification purposes: The Atlantic, which I linked, is a reputable source for news and opinion. World Net Daily, which was used to attack President Obama in the Netanyahu thread is not. Just so you know.
Typical Tim being a condescending ###. Always looking for the lowest life form on the right to lump everyone together with. It is a crappy tactic when racists do it, it is a crappy tactic when you do it. I did not quote a WND article. All I did was point out the fact that Clinton-Carville were also against Bibi, which I am sure you already knew and could be found in the NY Times. You would do yourself some good to read some sources where the author of an article does not have their lips wrapped around Obama's manhood,

 
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timschochet said:
I actually got into an argument with my dad on this very subject today. He's a big supporter of Bibi; I am not.

But it doesn't matter anyhow because Likud is still going to win. Netanyahu is going to be there for a while, and he and Obama will just have to deal with each other. They don't like each other much, but anyone who is expecting some major breach between the USA and Israel, don't hold your breath anytime soon. Israel is not going to do anything unilaterally to Iran no matter how much Bibi huffs and puffs. As to whether or not the USA can really prevent Iran from getting nukes through negotiations, that remains to be seen.

But I think we have to acknowledge the fact that, with the sole exception of South Africa in 1990, history says that economic sanctions does not bring about democratic change in government. We keep trying it- we tried it with China from 1948 to 1972, in Cuba from 1960 to 2015, in Iran from 1979 to 2015, and IT NEVER WORKS. Only, as I wrote, in South Africa, and in that case the sanctions only lasted a couple of years so there were probably more important factors. Iran is a terrible regime but we're not going to get rid of it through sanctions. So we ought to try something different.
Here's the thing.

This is the opposite of Nixon and China. This would be like if Nixon became president and like everyone predicted he became a red baiter who tried to push us to the edge of war with the USSR and Mao.

He's also the opposite of Carter who used his real idealism to dig his heels in and get the impossible done an actual peace treaty. Instead Obama has given Israel the Heisman stiffarm.

Obama was caught at a fundraiser for Rashid Khalidi, you know about the Farrakhan and Wright connection, and everything that Obama is doing now is what was predicted before he ran in 2008. He can negotiate with Iran, "great" (and I put it that way because either we negotiate a deal with them whereby they drop the nukes (and that's all we get) or we don't and.... Iran HAS NUKES), but he does not have to turn his back on and humiliate a true ally in the mideast. It's wrong in so many ways. And of course Israel NEEDS us, they have always needed us, we support them out of principle, we are supposed to want them to do well and succeed. It's sad, but I think our next President (D or R) will not act like a rank amateur who doesn't try very hard to hide his sympathies against Israel.

 
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4/10/08 LAT:

A special tribute came from Khalidi's friend and frequent dinner companion, the young state Sen. Barack Obama. Speaking to the crowd, Obama reminisced about meals prepared by Khalidi's wife, Mona, and conversations that had challenged his thinking.
And yet the warm embrace Obama gave to Khalidi, and words like those at the professor's going-away party, have left some Palestinian American leaders believing that Obama is more receptive to their viewpoint than he is willing to say.

Their belief is not drawn from Obama's speeches or campaign literature, but from comments that some say Obama made in private and from his association with the Palestinian American community in his hometown of Chicago, including his presence at events where anger at Israeli and U.S. Middle East policy was freely expressed.

At Khalidi's 2003 farewell party, for example, a young Palestinian American recited a poem accusing the Israeli government of terrorism in its treatment of Palestinians and sharply criticizing U.S. support of Israel. If Palestinians cannot secure their own land, she said, "then you will never see a day of peace."

One speaker likened "Zionist settlers on the West Bank" to Osama bin Laden, saying both had been "blinded by ideology."

Obama adopted a different tone in his comments and called for finding common ground. But his presence at such events, as he worked to build a political base in Chicago, has led some Palestinian leaders to believe that he might deal differently with the Middle East than either of his opponents for the White House.
A scholar and critic of Israel, Khalidi was viewed dimly by some for his sharp criticism of U.S. policy in the Mideast and for saying that Palestinians have the right to resist the Israeli occupation. He is viewed by Palestinians as moderate, having condemned suicide attacks and the actions of radical groups such as Hamas.

The Wallsten story exposed how candidate Obama, in effect, worked both sides of the fence — maintaining strong relationships with Jewish community leaders and friends of Israel while leaving some Palestinians with the impression he was much more supportive of their views than he was willing to say in public.

Helping flesh out this portrait was a video of a 2003 farewell party for Khalidi as he left Chicago to take a job at Columbia University in New York. A source gave Wallsten access to the video and Wallsten used it to describe the going-away party — in which speakers honoring Khalidi could be seen “sharply criticizing U.S. support of Israel.”
 
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Hey Saints, is the Prime Minister of England fond of Khalidi as well? If not, then please explain his motivation for being for these Iran negotiations even more than Obama is.

And I am also in favor of what Obama is doing here with regard to Iran. Does that make me a terrorist sympathizer as well? These connections you keep trying to make are absurd. Obama doesn't need to have some wicked ulterior motive for trying to pursue these negotiations with Iran. He's doing it because it makes good sense, IMO, to do so.

 
Oh and jon, for clarification purposes: The Atlantic, which I linked, is a reputable source for news and opinion. World Net Daily, which was used to attack President Obama in the Netanyahu thread is not. Just so you know.
Typical Tim being a condescending ###. Always looking for the lowest life form on the right to lump everyone together with. It is a crappy tactic when racists do it, it is a crappy tactic when you do it. I did not quote a WND article. All I did was point out the fact that Clinton-Carville were also against Bibi, which I am sure you already knew and could be found in the NY Times. You would do yourself some good to read some sources where the author of an article does not have their lips wrapped around Obama's manhood,
You attacked the Los Angeles Times and CNN for promoting a liberal agenda. You linked an article from the Washington Examiner and tried to argue that they were no different. And when the Netanyahu thread was started with a link to a completely disreputable piece of trash like World Net Daily, you failed to make any objection to it. I'm simply pointing that out.
 
For anyone who is opposed to what Obama is doing with Iran, what would you have us do to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons? Assuming that is the goal.

 
wdcrob said:


When Obama pitched the healthcare law to Congress, he said it would cost "around $900 billion" over 10 years. But his statement was misleading because the way the law was designed, the major spending provisions didn't kick in until 2014. This meant that 10-year estimates at the time the law was passed in 2010 were artificially low, because they included four years (2010 through 2013) in which spending was negligible.



The new CBO analysis finds that between fiscal years 2016 and 2025, spending on the law's expansion of Medicaid will cost $920 billion and insurance exchange subsidies will cost nearly $1.1 trillion. The major spending provisions, taken together, will total $1.993 trillion. [Washington Examiner, 1/26/15]

In other words, the program is in fact 20% cheaper than expected.


But the $900b was weaselly (though accurate) because it included four years where the costs were low while the program ramped up.
Your last sentence was what I've been waiting for. So as I suspected, there was a reason for the 900 billion argument. It wasn't some lie made out of whole cloth as has been suggested here. And bringing it up now, as a counterpoint to the 20% reduction, makes no sense.
 
Continuing with the United States Constitution, Article IV:

Section. 2.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.

No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

The first part seems to take on added importance with the gay marriage discussion. It seems pretty clear that if I marry my gay husband in California, then Alabama has to recognize my marriage. Or is that clear? I'm not really sure. In any event, it may be a moot discussion given the upcoming Supreme Court decision.

But I don't know how far this sentence pertains to, I don't know what is meant by a "privilege". Let's take our public universities. UCLA, so far as I know, has a higher tuition for out of state students than it does for residents of California. But under this article, if I read that first sentence correctly, wouldn't that be unconstitutional? Not sure.

The middle sentence seems pretty obvious. The last sentence I presume refers to slavery and indentured servitude, so is no longer valid. But from a historical perspective, it's interesting that Congress in 1850, as a result of the Compromise, felt the need to pass a Fugitive Slave Act, since it seems redundant given this Article already in the Constitution.
Section. 2.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

Don't overthink this. The speed limit in New Jersey can't be 65 for me and 25 for you. Once you are in this state you are treated like any other person in the state. Yes the gay marriage debates hit on this point. They weren't thinking about that in 1787.

A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.

The states have extradition powers with each other. While you can commit a crime here and get yourself to Nepal or some country that doesn't have such an agreement with the United States, no states themsevles can stand in the way of another state. Of course, on the street, sometimes states have problems with this when you are dealing with high profile crimes or where the crimes occurred in two states. But that is few and far between.

No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

Have to give the southern states their slaves back if they flee to your state. We've changed that.

 
I like Bibi. You know exactly what you are getting from a foreign leader. For as much as we are dealing with terrorism here we have no idea what it is like to live under constant seige the way they do in Isreal. And Jack Ryan hasn't been elected yet to fix it.

 
I like Bibi. You know exactly what you are getting from a foreign leader. For as much as we are dealing with terrorism here we have no idea what it is like to live under constant seige the way they do in Isreal. And Jack Ryan hasn't been elected yet to fix it.
i never disliked him before now honestly. I think he's wrong about Iran but that's not a crime; his opinion strikes me as honest and I think he's genuinely concerned with the future survival of his country. But my problem is that Bibi seems to have accepted the most extreme right wing view of Obama, and that he has chosen to meddle in our politics, which is not a good idea for a foreign leader. The Atlantic piece correctly points out just how foolish this is. Ultimately though it won't mean anything. Obama and Bibi may detest each other, but they will continue to work together.

 
If anyone really wants to understand the dynamics at play between Netanyahu and Obama, I strongly recommend Peter Beinart's The Crisis of Zionism. Beinart is an American Jew, a firm supporter of Israel yet willing to acknowledge the flaws of both that country and some of her American supporters. It was an eye opening read for me. Among other things, it helped me understand my own father, who becomes, IMO, irrationally angry and defensive whenever Israel is criticized for any reason.

If I have time I may quote some portions of that book here.

 
If anyone really wants to understand the dynamics at play between Netanyahu and Obama, I strongly recommend Peter Beinart's The Crisis of Zionism. Beinart is an American Jew, a firm supporter of Israel yet willing to acknowledge the flaws of both that country and some of her American supporters. It was an eye opening read for me. Among other things, it helped me understand my own father, who becomes, IMO, irrationally angry and defensive whenever Israel is criticized for any reason.

If I have time I may quote some portions of that book here.
This isn't an Isreal thread so I'm going to far down this rabbit hole, but the blowback you get from Isreal whenver you talk about anything but supporting them 100% is understandable if not necessary for survival in some ways to many people. You know the diplomatic history there. Every time they give it doesn't work and either are told to give more and more is taken or at least the attempt is made to take. They were ready for long term peace and the price was impossible because it spelled their end. Rhetoric aside in those comments, the fact is that if we were dealing with Canada and Mexico constantly hitting us and publically demanding our extinction we'd be hard pressed to just give in to some things because our allies in the west said we should. And the problem them becomes that there is no good answer there when you are at that point either.

I'm telling you, Jack Ryan fixed this. In like 6 pages. We need Jack Ryan.

 
If anyone really wants to understand the dynamics at play between Netanyahu and Obama, I strongly recommend Peter Beinart's The Crisis of Zionism. Beinart is an American Jew, a firm supporter of Israel yet willing to acknowledge the flaws of both that country and some of her American supporters. It was an eye opening read for me. Among other things, it helped me understand my own father, who becomes, IMO, irrationally angry and defensive whenever Israel is criticized for any reason.

If I have time I may quote some portions of that book here.
Beinart, the guy that used to be the editor for The New Republic.

So hey here read this Liberal guy's take, it's "objective."

 
Hey Saints, is the Prime Minister of England fond of Khalidi as well? If not, then please explain his motivation for being for these Iran negotiations even more than Obama is.

And I am also in favor of what Obama is doing here with regard to Iran. Does that make me a terrorist sympathizer as well? These connections you keep trying to make are absurd. Obama doesn't need to have some wicked ulterior motive for trying to pursue these negotiations with Iran. He's doing it because it makes good sense, IMO, to do so.
Tim, boo, you take it too far.

Strawmen are dancing all over that short post.

I don't have a problem with negotiating with Iran. I have a problem with Obama treating an ally like dirt.

 
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If anyone really wants to understand the dynamics at play between Netanyahu and Obama, I strongly recommend Peter Beinart's The Crisis of Zionism. Beinart is an American Jew, a firm supporter of Israel yet willing to acknowledge the flaws of both that country and some of her American supporters. It was an eye opening read for me. Among other things, it helped me understand my own father, who becomes, IMO, irrationally angry and defensive whenever Israel is criticized for any reason.

If I have time I may quote some portions of that book here.
Beinart, the guy that used to be the editor for The New Republic.

So hey here read this Liberal guy's take, it's "objective."
i never said he was objective. I think it's perfectly OK to pay attention to opinionated sources so long as they're credible and they have some interesting post to make. Last week I linked an article here by Fred Barnes of the Weekly Standard which was very critical of Obama. It was a thoughtful piece and I thought it made some very good points. But I would never link World Net Daily because I know it's full of ####. And that Examiner piece that jon linked was so heavily biased in the way it was written that I don't give it any credibility either.
 
Hey Saints, is the Prime Minister of England fond of Khalidi as well? If not, then please explain his motivation for being for these Iran negotiations even more than Obama is.

And I am also in favor of what Obama is doing here with regard to Iran. Does that make me a terrorist sympathizer as well? These connections you keep trying to make are absurd. Obama doesn't need to have some wicked ulterior motive for trying to pursue these negotiations with Iran. He's doing it because it makes good sense, IMO, to do so.
Tim, boo, you take it too far.

Strawmen are dancing all over that short post.

I don't have a problem with negotiating with Iran. I have a problem with Obama treating an ally like dirt.
Well, in all fairness, some of our allies can be collective "morans" sometimes and need to be treated as such. Let's not foget that the reason we exist as a country is because we told western Europe to go screw for the most part. And then we saved their #### twice (yeah, I'm over simplifying. I'm going to start taking the theme of Sons of Liberty and using it to describe our history a little more. Better ratings.)

 
Hey Saints, is the Prime Minister of England fond of Khalidi as well? If not, then please explain his motivation for being for these Iran negotiations even more than Obama is.

And I am also in favor of what Obama is doing here with regard to Iran. Does that make me a terrorist sympathizer as well? These connections you keep trying to make are absurd. Obama doesn't need to have some wicked ulterior motive for trying to pursue these negotiations with Iran. He's doing it because it makes good sense, IMO, to do so.
Tim, boo, you take it too far.

Strawmen are dancing all over that short post.

I don't have a problem with negotiating with Iran. I have a problem with Obama treating an ally like dirt.
how is he treating Israel like dirt? Putting rhetotic and off the record statements aside, please list one real thing that Obama has done during his presidency with regard to Israel that represents a significant change from previous administrations. I challenge you or anyone else to do this.
 
Hey Saints, is the Prime Minister of England fond of Khalidi as well? If not, then please explain his motivation for being for these Iran negotiations even more than Obama is.

And I am also in favor of what Obama is doing here with regard to Iran. Does that make me a terrorist sympathizer as well? These connections you keep trying to make are absurd. Obama doesn't need to have some wicked ulterior motive for trying to pursue these negotiations with Iran. He's doing it because it makes good sense, IMO, to do so.
Tim, boo, you take it too far.

Strawmen are dancing all over that short post.

I don't have a problem with negotiating with Iran. I have a problem with Obama treating an ally like dirt.
how is he treating Israel like dirt? Putting rhetotic and off the record statements aside, please list one real thing that Obama has done during his presidency with regard to Israel that represents a significant change from previous administrations. I challenge you or anyone else to do this.
Is this where I make a jewish people run the media joke? I have a few of them......

 
Yankee this thread is for going down rabbit holes.

Jack Ryan may have solved Israel in a few pages, but Jed Bartlett solved the entire Middle East in less than 15 minutes of TV time.

 
Hey Saints, is the Prime Minister of England fond of Khalidi as well? If not, then please explain his motivation for being for these Iran negotiations even more than Obama is.

And I am also in favor of what Obama is doing here with regard to Iran. Does that make me a terrorist sympathizer as well? These connections you keep trying to make are absurd. Obama doesn't need to have some wicked ulterior motive for trying to pursue these negotiations with Iran. He's doing it because it makes good sense, IMO, to do so.
Tim, boo, you take it too far.

Strawmen are dancing all over that short post.

I don't have a problem with negotiating with Iran. I have a problem with Obama treating an ally like dirt.
how is he treating Israel like dirt? Putting rhetotic and off the record statements aside, please list one real thing that Obama has done during his presidency with regard to Israel that represents a significant change from previous administrations. I challenge you or anyone else to do this.
Is this where I make a jewish people run the media joke? I have a few of them......
ive never been invited to a single secret meeting, and that pisses me off.
 
Yankee this thread is for going down rabbit holes.

Jack Ryan may have solved Israel in a few pages, but Jed Bartlett solved the entire Middle East in less than 15 minutes of TV time.
Jack actually solved it. Jed just came up with a new policy and left it to Jimmy Smits to figure it out from his LA Law office.

 

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