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Gorilla Rescues Toddler at Zoo, Gorilla Euthanized (1 Viewer)

Otis said:
No context will help such an absurd complaint. 
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:lmao:

Even if the context shows that it wasn't a complaint? 

It was simply an observation that pointed away from the likelihood of something else happening.

 
shadyridr said:
Im also going to chime in on the mother. The mother made a horrible mistake (probably on her cell phone or something) but no parent in this thread is immune for mistakes. I dont think she should be vilified. She should be grateful her child is alive and her mistake did not cause her his life and absolutely the child's life is more valuable than the gorillas. No debate about it.
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I think it's fair that she be treated exactly the same as that Minnesota doctor who shot Whatshisname the Lion.  Due to gross negligence it's like she shot the gorilla herself.   A big mistake was made and the end result was a dead critter that people loved.  If it was fair to throw the book at the Minnesota doctor and destroy his reputation then its fair to throw the book at her and destroy her reputation.

 
spreagle said:
I think it's fair that she be treated exactly the same as that Minnesota doctor who shot Whatshisname the Lion.  Due to gross negligence it's like she shot the gorilla herself.   A big mistake was made and the end result was a dead critter that people loved.  If it was fair to throw the book at the Minnesota doctor and destroy his reputation then its fair to throw the book at her and destroy her reputation.
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I dunno. What she did was an accident. What the dentist did was hunt the lion. I dont think the two are related at all.

 
spreagle said:
I think it's fair that she be treated exactly the same as that Minnesota doctor who shot Whatshisname the Lion.  Due to gross negligence it's like she shot the gorilla herself.   A big mistake was made and the end result was a dead critter that people loved.  If it was fair to throw the book at the Minnesota doctor and destroy his reputation then its fair to throw the book at her and destroy her reputation.
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Was that fair?

There are about one million people on this planet for every mountain gorilla.  I'm not sure what that figure means, if anything, or what conclusions should be drawn therefrom.

 
shadyridr said:
I dunno. What she did was an accident. What the dentist did was hunt the lion. I dont think the two are related at all.
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One difference is that the dentist did pay something like $50,000 to hunt lions, and that probably went to wildlife conservation.  If she paid a $50,000 fine that went for gorilla conservation wherever they roam around in the wild I'd be satisfied.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I do believe the world will lament the passing of the last mountain gorilla far more than it will lament, or even notice, my passing.
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Meh.  It will be a more famous event, but your death will have a more profound effect on a small group of your closest family and friends than the extinction of a species that 99.9999999% of the world never had any actual contact with.

 
shuke said:
Here's the best I could find.  Lower left is the short fence, which has bushes on the other side of it, which drops off down into the moat.  I've stood my kids many a time on top of that railing :bag:

Ironically enough, the zoo already had plans to redo the exhibit into more of a glass-enclosed one.  
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Later Tonight....

FOX NEWS ALERT
Government Bureaucracy kills Majestic Gorilla!  
Democratic Inefficiency and Over-Regulation almost lead to child's death.  
Wouldn't privatization have saved Harambe?  
Trump says "What did I tell you, we're going to build a bigger wall and it's going to be fabulous, at least that's what they tell me."

MSNBC BREAKING NEWS
Republican Greed and lack of public funds push endangered Gorillas further to the Brink of Extinction.  
PETA decries "further evidence of the horrors of our animal concentration camps".  
NASA weighs in, low growing bushes and half filled moat caused by Global Warming.  
Bernie says gorillas disenfranchised, should unionize.  Demands safer enclosures and $15 an hour.

 
spreagle said:
I think it's fair that she be treated exactly the same as that Minnesota doctor who shot Whatshisname the Lion.  Due to gross negligence it's like she shot the gorilla herself.   A big mistake was made and the end result was a dead critter that people loved.  If it was fair to throw the book at the Minnesota doctor and destroy his reputation then its fair to throw the book at her and destroy her reputation.
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This may be the worst take in this thread. For one, you have no idea how negligent the mother was so to proclaim "gross negligence" is absurd.  There is no video of what she was going (other than not having eyes on her child) when this happened or how long it took...could've been 10 seconds and the kid was out of sight into the bushes for all we know.  Two, to compare this to someone intentionally hunting is downright silly.

 
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BustedKnuckles said:
well seeing she released a statement and never once mentioned the gorilla i wouldnt hold your breath waiting for this to happen
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The family issued a statement saying they don't want any money, and that if people wanted to give them a gift to give it to the zoo instead.

 
SayWhat? said:
This may be the worst take in this thread. For one, you have no idea how negligent the mother was so to proclaim "gross negligence" is absurd.  There is no video of what she was going (other than not having eyes on her child) when this happened or how long it took...could've been 10 seconds and the kid was out of sight into the bushes for all we know.  Two, to compare this to someone intentionally hunting is downright silly.
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"Her attention was drawn away for seconds, maybe a minute"

GROSS NEGLIGENCE

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/31/us/gorilla-shot-harambe/

 
shuke said:
The family issued a statement saying they don't want any money, and that if people wanted to give them a gift to give it to the zoo instead.
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They don't want money until  little Adolph begins to suffer PTSD symptoms and requires counseling and medication. Or until the OtisLawyers convince them that they can win a million dollar settlement. 

 
spreagle said:
"Her attention was drawn away for seconds, maybe a minute"

GROSS NEGLIGENCE

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/31/us/gorilla-shot-harambe/
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Aaaand you doubled down.  Nice work.  Like I said, could've been gross negligence but you have zero idea at this stage with what's been released.  To compare taking your eyes off a child for 10-60 seconds vs booking a trip to go kill a beloved lion is just stupid.  Sorry, it is.  

Back to the gross negligence claim.  The investigation may find that to be the case and if so, then the mother will rightfully face the consequences.  Could also turn out to be a case where she didn't do anything that every other parent has ever done, which is take your eyes off for tens of seconds to tend to something else that requires your attention.

 
SayWhat? said:
Aaaand you doubled down.  Nice work.  Like I said, could've been gross negligence but you have zero idea at this stage with what's been released.  To compare taking your eyes off a child for 10-60 seconds vs booking a trip to go kill a beloved lion is just stupid.  Sorry, it is.  

Back to the gross negligence claim.  The investigation may find that to be the case and if so, then the mother will rightfully face the consequences.  Could also turn out to be a case where she didn't do anything that every other parent has ever done, which is take your eyes off for tens of seconds to tend to something else that requires your attention.
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Zimbabwe officials eventually concluded the hunter did nothing wrong.  

 
spreagle said:
I think it's fair that she be treated exactly the same as that Minnesota doctor who shot Whatshisname the Lion.  Due to gross negligence it's like she shot the gorilla herself.   A big mistake was made and the end result was a dead critter that people loved.  If it was fair to throw the book at the Minnesota doctor and destroy his reputation then its fair to throw the book at her and destroy her reputation.
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WTF...it's not fair to throw the book at either. 

 
spreagle said:
"Her attention was drawn away for seconds, maybe a minute"

GROSS NEGLIGENCE

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/31/us/gorilla-shot-harambe/
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Sinn Fein, this link is worth reading through. The middle of the article details some Animal Welfare Act violations at Cincinnati Zoo uncovered during USDA inspections over the last few years. No huge smoking guns, and none involving the gorilla exhibit. But two violations did involve breaches in other animal enclosures (rotting/broken wood boards). A third violation involved the escape of two polar bears into a non-public area of the zoo (see below):

The Association of Zoos and Aquariums, an accrediting agency, also announced that it was investigating the Harambe episode. "We'll of course be taking a closer look at that working with Cincinnati to figure out what happened and make sure we can firm that up so it doesn't happen again," said to Rob Vernon, spokesman for the AZA.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture, which inspects the zoo annually, said it will determine whether the incident happened because the zoo was not in compliance with the Animal Welfare Act , according to Public Affairs Specialist Tanya Espinosa.

...

CNN independently reviewed USDA records for the last three years, which is all that is maintained by the agency, and found nine findings where the zoo was out of compliance although none involved the gorilla exhibit.

Two involving veterinary care were directly tied to the health or wellness of the animals, and seven dealt with other issues; all were resolved, according to USDA reports.

...

An animal rights group announced Tuesday that it had requested an investigation by the USDA. The letter from Michael A. Budkie , executive director of Stop Animal Exploitation Now, alleges the Harambe tragedy occurred because the zoo, "maintained an enclosure that violated the Animal Welfare Act," according to the letter obtained by CNN. It does not explain how the zoo violated the act.

The letter from the animal rights group cites what it says are Animal Welfare Act violations and includes copies of USDA inspection reports from March 2016 and November 2014, which CNN also located independently in the USDA database.

The March 2016 report documented an incident in which two polar bears got into a service hallway that was to be accessible only to zookeepers. The dangerous animal response team was able to quickly secure the area and use tranquillizer darts to subdue the bears.

Thane Maynard, the director of the Cincinnati Zoo, noted a zookeeper lost her arm in the incident.

The November 6, 2014, report cites a door to the Eastern black and white colobus monkey outdoor enclosure had multiple wooden boards in disrepair. The same report also detailed deterioration in part of the Przewalski's horse enclosure.
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Older incidents at Cincinnati Zoo:

There have been other incidents as well. In 2008, a gibbon named Euell escaped his enclosure, made it all the way to the parking lot and bit a man on the leg. The man wasn’t seriously hurt.

In 2000, Casper the cheetah somehow made it out of his enclosure. At the time, the zoo wasn’t sure how he managed to scale a 15-foot stone wall. Casper was corralled and no one was hurt.
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EDIT -- There was also a separate polar bear incident in 1990 (and that's going way back, I admit) where a zookeeper lost an arm. The polar bear escape mentioned upthread happened this past March.

 
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And in 2015

In 2015, an Indominus Rex got out of his enclosure by scratching the wall and using his camouflage ability to pretend he escaped when in fact he was in the enclosure the whole time and used that opportunity to actually escape. Several people died during the incident.
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An American soldier may lose his life today and we won't hear of it. A random village we never heard of nor will hear of may be massacred today. 150,000 people will die today.

Ultimately, I don't really give a #### about a gorilla. Some perspective is needed. 

 
Otis said:
9 pages in and you're still arguing about this?

Guys. This isn't hard. You make a theme park to attract four year olds there. Then you separate said four year olds from a 15 foot drop and deadly animals using only a half fence and a bush.  End thread already?
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Otis - do you city slickers have big plexiglass walls on the subway platforms?

Seems like that could be a pretty dangerous spot for a kid to fall.  Might want to start child-proofing NYC.

For 38 years, parents have kept kids of all ages from falling into the Gorilla Exhibit.  I think its probably safe enough.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Otis - do you city slickers have big plexiglass walls on the subway platforms?

Seems like that could be a pretty dangerous spot for a kid to fall.  Might want to start child-proofing NYC.

For 38 years, parents have kept kids of all ages from falling into the Gorilla Exhibit.  I think its probably safe enough.
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People fall or are pushed all the time off subway platforms. Not sure thats the best example

 
Sinn Fein said:
Otis - do you city slickers have big plexiglass walls on the subway platforms?

Seems like that could be a pretty dangerous spot for a kid to fall.  Might want to start child-proofing NYC.

For 38 years, parents have kept kids of all ages from falling into the Gorilla Exhibit.  I think its probably safe enough.
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Now we know that is not the case.  It is on the zoo to correct this safety concern in their facility.

 
Sinn Fein said:
For 38 years, parents have kept kids of all ages from falling into the Gorilla Exhibit.  I think its probably safe enough.
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Yet it's still being investigated by at least two authoritative parties. I don't believe you're saying the ongoing investigations are mere theater. Changes will result from this incident.

 
dutch said:
Now we know that is not the case.  It is on the zoo to correct this safety concern in their facility.
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Safe "enough" does not require a 100% fool-proof enclosure.  It means, keep the normal people out, and allow a few exceptions through.

As I said above the world does not owe you a danger-free bubble to live in.  It owes you a reasonable expectation of safety.  A safety design that has kept people injury free for 38 years is reasonable.  Could it be better?  Maybe, but that does not make the zoo negligent.

 
Found this article interesting:

I worked with gorillas as a zookeeper at the Knoxville Zoo from January 2006 until August of 2008; after that I volunteered doing sanctuary work and wildlife rehab. Of the dozens of animals I worked with closely, gorillas were my favorite—for their soulfulness, curiosity, and playfulness. Since the news emerged last weekend that Cincinnati Zoo officials shot and killed the gorilla known as Harambe after a little boy fell into his enclosure, I’ve realized that there are some misconceptions out there about both the gorilla species itself and how a zoo operates in emergency situations. Here, I’d like to try to clear up those misconceptions.

...

Gorillas are considered a Class I mammal, the most dangerous class of mammals in the animal kingdom—again, merely due to their size and strength. They are grouped in with other apes as well as tigers, lions, and bears. While working in an Association of Zoos and Aquariums–accredited zoo with apes, keepers do not work in direct contact with them; they never share an enclosed space with these animals. There is always a welded mesh barrier between the animal and the humans [there is a picture of the author with an ape behind just such a barrier - db].

... what’s needed is a reevaluation of the safety of the animal enclosures from the visitors’ side.
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The bolded I actually did not know -- I thought there were, in fact, trusted zookeepers who built relationships with the gorillas and could move about them with relative (if cautious) freedom.

On another board, a few people have brought up the idea of OSHA requirements, which the park must maintain for the due protection of their staffers (e.g. the mesh barrier mentioned in the article). A related question, though: why would the requirements for visitor protection be less than that for the staff? Change is coming ... this incident, for right or wrong, will be the catalyst even as previous incidents went relatively ignored.

.

 
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Doug B said:
Found this article interesting:

The bolded I actually did not know -- I thought there were, in fact, trusted zookeepers who built relationships with the gorillas and could move about them with relative (if cautious) freedom.

On another board, a few people have brought up the idea of OSHA requirements, which the park must maintain for the due protection of their staffers (e.g. the mesh barrier mentioned in the article). A related question, though: why would the requirements for visitor protection be less than that for the staff? Change is coming ... this incident, for right or wrong, will be the catalyst even as previous incidents went relatively ignored.

.
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How are the visitors less safe than the staff?  Are you suggesting the staff could not have gotten into the exhibit the same way the kid did?

 
Sinn Fein said:
Otis - do you city slickers have big plexiglass walls on the subway platforms?

Seems like that could be a pretty dangerous spot for a kid to fall.  Might want to start child-proofing NYC.

For 38 years, parents have kept kids of all ages from falling into the Gorilla Exhibit.  I think its probably safe enough.
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Apparently not.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Otis - do you city slickers have big plexiglass walls on the subway platforms?

Seems like that could be a pretty dangerous spot for a kid to fall.  Might want to start child-proofing NYC.

For 38 years, parents have kept kids of all ages from falling into the Gorilla Exhibit.  I think its probably safe enough.
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My son comes on the subway probably about once a month with me. If there is a wall, we stand back against it, of all places to mess around, he knows this is not an area to let go of my hand. If there is no wall and the platform is in the middle of local and express tracks, we stand directly in the middle, holding hands at all times. 

 
Sinn Fein said:
How are the visitors less safe than the staff?  Are you suggesting the staff could not have gotten into the exhibit the same way the kid did?
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I'm making a much subtler point. The visitors, IMHO, are at least as safe as the staff in general. However, the rigor of the OSHA requirements seem to well exceed the rigor of the whatever standards & recommendations are in place to protect the public.

For instance, a breach in the wire mesh barrier separating zookeeper and gorilla would not be tolerated long. But an enclosure fence with a too-large gap beneath it might slide a good while before repair or mitigation takes place.

One obvious difference is the frequency that the respective safety measures get unofficially tested. The zookeeper is in front of their barrier at every feeding, administration of medicine, etc. Something's off, they see it right away, report on it, and get it rectified. I don't believe the exterior barriers of the enclosure get the same attention.

 
For 85 years no spectator had died at a hockey game from a puck hit into the stands.   That streak ended in 2002 when a young girl got hit in the head by a puck that went over the 8' of plexiglass behind the goal.  That one death was the impetus for the netting now installed around the rink at all NHL arenas.  

One incident, much like the one in Cinncy, can mean big changes to safety measures.  Now that zoos are aware of the danger posed by only having 3' split rail fences and 4' of bushes around enclosures they risk increased exposure to lawsuits should another similar incident occur.  For risk management, it behooves zoos to make changes.

 
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Doug B said:
I'm making a much subtler point. The visitors, IMHO, are at least as safe as the staff in general. However, the rigor of the OSHA requirements seem to well exceed the rigor of the whatever standards & recommendations are in place to protect the public.

For instance, a breach in the wire mesh barrier separating zookeeper and gorilla would not be tolerated long. But an enclosure fence with a too-large gap beneath it might slide a good while before repair or mitigation takes place.

One obvious difference is the frequency that the respective safety measures get unofficially tested. The zookeeper is in front of their barrier at every feeding, administration of medicine, etc. Something's off, they see it right away, report on it, and get it rectified. I don't believe the exterior barriers of the enclosure get the same attention.
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OSHA would have weighed in about the ease of access to the animals via the guest area - since they frequently have Zoo staff there also...

And there was nothing "broken" with the exterior barriers.  Kid climbed a fence, went through 4 feet of bushes, and fell.  Everything was where it was supposed to be.  

 
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