Democrats And Education - Matt Taibbi (1 Viewer)

[Stealthycat]

Sorry, Tim, but you're wrong. 

That's EXACTLY what it is in it's current form.  The misunderstanding is that you keep sugar-coating it with your white guilt.  Slavery is not your fault, Tim.  It's time to accept that.

CRT will result in strong pro-white organizations being formed across the nation - the split/division coming from CRT push will change the face of this nation IMO and force people to choose colors IMO

 

[BladeRunner]

CRT will result in strong pro-white organizations being formed across the nation - the split/division coming from CRT push will change the face of this nation IMO and force people to choose colors IMO

Agreed.

Although, I don't get why people cant see the irony in not okay to be Pro white but it's perfectly okay to be Pro black and even announce it to the masses. It's the same power dynamic and the opposite side of the same coin.

We should all be concerned anytime anyone promotes power for a specific group of people with a specific skin color. Whether that be white, black, purple, green or any other color.

 

[Sinn Fein]

If the state were paying faculty stipends to include more overt pro-Christian messaging, he would understand your point.  As it is, he has a strong incentive to pretend to misunderstand what you're arguing.

Well, aside from them not being comparable, and one being arguably unconstitutional, I’m still waiting to see where professors were required to change curriculums. 
 

In a University where the majority of students are non-White, I don’t find it unusual, or worthy of the whining, for a grant to offer up to 20 faculty members the opportunity to change their curriculum, if they want, to include more diversity. 
 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Well, aside from them not being comparable, and one being arguably unconstitutional, I’m still waiting to see where professors were required to change curriculums. 

Totally comparable.  The state should not be indoctrinating people into either Christianity or your made-up DEI religion.  That's the motivating principle behind having a wall of separation between church and state.

More generally, this is why elected officials are getting pulled into curricular decisions in the first place.  You can't realistically expect public schools (including universities) to adopt an explicitly ideologically approach to curricular development and then get all surprised when legislators push back against that.  That's normal.  

 

[Boston]

Totally comparable.  The state should not be indoctrinating people into either Christianity or your made-up DEI religion.  That's the motivating principle behind having a wall of separation between church and state.

More generally, this is why elected officials are getting pulled into curricular decisions in the first place.  You can't realistically expect public schools (including universities) to adopt an explicitly ideologically approach to curricular development and then get all surprised when legislators push back against that.  That's normal.  

Dead on...we need to keep agendas out of education...doesn't matter whether they are liberal or conservative agendas they have no place being in the classroom...unfortunately I think some people don't see a difference (or do but don't care) between teaching a topic and pushing an agenda.

 

[Stealthycat]

Although, I don't get why people cant see the irony in not okay to be Pro white but it's perfectly okay to be Pro black and even announce it to the masses. It's the same power dynamic and the opposite side of the same coin.

because some people believe hate only applies one direction

 

[Sinn Fein]

Totally comparable.  The state should not be indoctrinating people into either Christianity or your made-up DEI religion.  That's the motivating principle behind having a wall of separation between church and state.

More generally, this is why elected officials are getting pulled into curricular decisions in the first place.  You can't realistically expect public schools (including universities) to adopt an explicitly ideologically approach to curricular development and then get all surprised when legislators push back against that.  That's normal.  

Part of the problem here is your assumption that including diversity in a curriculum is an ideological approach. 
 

Including diversity into a curriculum could simply be providing a more complete picture of the ideas being taught. 
 

And, yet to be addressed, despite many responses, is where is Memphis requiring these changes?  
 

Again, Memphis has a majority of students who are non-white. If a professor wants to include more diversity in his/her curriculum, how is that a bad thing?  And if a professor chooses not to make the changes - because they think the course is eIther not suitable for such a change or that such a change is not necessary- they are not required to do so. 
 

The faculty, in conjunction with the student body, decided this was a worthwhile endeavor. Do we really want state legislatures coming in and telling faculty what they must teach?

And this is 15-20 faculty members at a university with 2400 full time staff. I hardly think the sky is falling on the preferred white euro-centric teachings…

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Totally comparable.  The state should not be indoctrinating people into either Christianity or your made-up DEI religion.  That's the motivating principle behind having a wall of separation between church and state.

How do you determine what sort of curriculum counts as a quasi-religion in your view?  Do you believe that the way we were taught in high school was free of an agenda?

 

[Sand]

Again, Memphis has a majority of students who are non-white. If a professor wants to include more diversity in his/her curriculum, how is that a bad thing?  And if a professor chooses not to make the changes - because they think the course is eIther not suitable for such a change or that such a change is not necessary- they are not required to do so. 

This is a euphemism for identity politics, hate, and racism.

At this point students should never know the politics of their teachers.  We are letting the state implant walls of hate into our children that will be incredibly hard to break back down.

 

[Sand]

Which was why I was so interested in you labeling him a "radical leftist". 

I would disagree strongly that Taibbi is a radical anything. 

 

[Sinn Fein]

This is a euphemism for identity politics, hate, and racism.

At this point students should never know the politics of their teachers.  We are letting the state implant walls of hate into our children that will be incredibly hard to break back down.

We just fundamentally disagree on most of this.

First - many courses have historically been white, euro-centric based in their approach.  Adding diversity to some of those courses to reflect different perspectives is not "hate or racism" - its bringing a more complete picture to bear to a subject matter.

Second - we are talking University students - i.e. adults.  I think they can determine a professor's political leanings the same way they can determine anyone's political leanings.  People are who they are.

Third, we are lot letting the state implant walls of hate - at least not in this example.  This is an initiative brought about from student and faculty input.  At most, it allows for $60,000 total to be spent on 20 faculty members at a school with 2400 full time staff.  The "state" is not forcing any professor to make these changes, nor is the state forcing any student to take these classes.

Fourth, we are talking about a University with a majority on non-White students.  They want more diversity in their curriculum.  They want to see the accomplishments of people of color being championed in their courses.  Nothing about this suggests that any change is racist, or "anti-white".

 

[Sand]

We just fundamentally disagree on most of this.

First - many courses have historically been white, euro-centric based in their approach.  Adding diversity to some of those courses to reflect different perspectives is not "hate or racism" - its bringing a more complete picture to bear to a subject matter.

Second - we are talking University students - i.e. adults.  I think they can determine a professor's political leanings the same way they can determine anyone's political leanings.  People are who they are.

Third, we are lot letting the state implant walls of hate - at least not in this example.  This is an initiative brought about from student and faculty input.  At most, it allows for $60,000 total to be spent on 20 faculty members at a school with 2400 full time staff.  The "state" is not forcing any professor to make these changes, nor is the state forcing any student to take these classes.

Fourth, we are talking about a University with a majority on non-White students.  They want more diversity in their curriculum.  They want to see the accomplishments of people of color being championed in their courses.  Nothing about this suggests that any change is racist, or "anti-white".

On one hand - "parents shouldn't determine what gets taught".  Same people - "let's see if students want to learn X and supply that".  Just a bit of hypocrisy here.  

From an intellectual point of view I understand students wanting their education to be centric to them.  There are some hard facts that can't be escaped in some subjects, though - there is a reason why European civilization ended up being dominant, there is a reason why the lion's share of Nobel winners come from the same part of the world, etc.  

Oh, and I agree professors aren't being forced.  They're being bribed.  That's totally different.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Well for one thing he’s a fan of Bernie Sanders. Bernie is pretty leftist and pretty radical.

Doesn't this board have a handful of Bernie Sanders fans among the posters that you and I would probably label as conservatives?  Or at least not liberal?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

At this point students should never know the politics of their teachers.

j think it’s much better for a teacher to be transparent about his political views than to pretend to be neutral.

When I’m teaching I’m planning to tell the kids my political views on the first week of school.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

there is a reason why European civilization ended up being dominant, there is a reason why the lion's share of Nobel winners come from the same part of the world, etc.  

I would think that discussing those reasons would be the exact opposite of what the anti-CRT folks want.

 

[Sand]

I would think that discussing those reasons would be the exact opposite of what the anti-CRT folks want.

I would respectfully disagree with that.  I don't think a class on why some parts of the world advanced and flourished and others languished would be met very well by the woke of the world.

 

[Sand]

j think it’s much better for a teacher to be transparent about his political views than to pretend to be neutral.

When I’m teaching I’m planning to tell the kids my political views on the first week of school.

What do you teach?  Big difference between civics and geometry in this sense.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

What do you teach?  Big difference between civics and geometry in this sense.

I’ll be teaching government classes.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I would respectfully disagree with that.  I don't think a class on why some parts of the world advanced and flourished and others languished would be met very well by the woke of the world.

Wait I think we’re in  agreement.  My view was that discussion of why white Europeans came to dominate the world would be disfavored by the anti-CRT crowd.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

j think it’s much better for a teacher to be transparent about his political views than to pretend to be neutral.

When I’m teaching I’m planning to tell the kids my political views on the first week of school.

FWIW, I generally do something kind of similar.  Not "here's my voting record going back to 1992" or anything like that, but just something like "I'm a free market enthusiast who thinks that markets generally work pretty well and that capitalism is generally pretty good."  I'm paraphrasing obviously but that's not too far off the extent of it.

Basically I feel like I should be disclosing that to students when I talk about how bad price controls are (they really are legitimately bad, but that position happens to be convenient for my ideology), and I think it also gives me additional credibility when I talk about market power, public goods, externalities, and other areas where markets don't perform well and maybe there's a good case for government action (cuts against my ideological preferences). 

I haven't taught macro in eons, but this kind of knowledge would also be highly relevant when we get into business cycles, especially fiscal policy.

Of course my econ students don't need to know what I think about abortion.  

 

[Sand]

I’ll be teaching government classes.

BTW, do they even call it civics anymore?  Or did I just show my age?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

j think it’s much better for a teacher to be transparent about his political views than to pretend to be neutral.

When I’m teaching I’m planning to tell the kids my political views on the first week of school.

My sense is that you generally lean more left than right.

IMO, it's perfectly fine for your students to know that. They can know it because they found your twitter account via google, or they can know it because you tell them directly. But they should not know it because you're unable to muster a good defense of right-leaning policies (or solid criticisms of left-leaning policies) in class. Based on my experience in law school, I'd say that my most effective professors were generally the ones who could consistently pass ideological Turing tests so that their personal views were not evident from the classroom discussion.

This maxim doesn't apply only to teachers, but I think it applies especially to them: try to state the views you disagree with as persuasively as their most capable advocates would. I think you're very good at this, so I'm not purporting to give you advice you particularly need -- I'm just riffing on the subject in general.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

BTW, do they even call it civics anymore?  Or did I just show my age?

In Maryland the class is called National, State and Local Government.  Not sure what they call it elsewhere.

 

[Sinn Fein]

This is an example of why many fine people don't want the GOP to lead the discussions on what to teach in schools:

House Bill introduced in Virginia: https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?221+ful+HB781

HOUSE BILL NO. 781

Offered January 12, 2022

Prefiled January 11, 2022

A BILL to amend the Code of Virginia by adding a section numbered 22.1-208.03, relating to public elementary and secondary schools; student citizenship skills; certain instructional policies prohibited; parental rights; disclosures; penalties; other remedies.

***

B. The Board shall, in furtherance of the citizens skills portion of the 5 C's in the Profile of a Virginia Graduate, incorporate into each relevant Standard of Learning and associated curriculum framework a requirement that each student demonstrate the understanding of: 

***

3. The founding documents of the United States, including the Declaration of Independence, the United States Constitution, the Federalist Papers, including Essays 10 and 51, excerpts from Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America, the first debate between Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, and the writings of the Founding Fathers of the United States. 

For those that are not sure - the Lincoln-Douglass Debates were between Lincoln and Stephen Douglas.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

This is an example of why many fine people don't want the GOP to lead the discussions on what to teach in schools:

House Bill introduced in Virginia: https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?221+ful+HB781

HOUSE BILL NO. 781

Offered January 12, 2022

Prefiled January 11, 2022

A BILL to amend the Code of Virginia by adding a section numbered 22.1-208.03, relating to public elementary and secondary schools; student citizenship skills; certain instructional policies prohibited; parental rights; disclosures; penalties; other remedies.

***

B. The Board shall, in furtherance of the citizens skills portion of the 5 C's in the Profile of a Virginia Graduate, incorporate into each relevant Standard of Learning and associated curriculum framework a requirement that each student demonstrate the understanding of: 

***

3. The founding documents of the United States, including the Declaration of Independence, the United States Constitution, the Federalist Papers, including Essays 10 and 51, excerpts from Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America, the first debate between Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, and the writings of the Founding Fathers of the United States. 

For those that are not sure - the Lincoln-Douglass Debates were between Lincoln and Stephen Douglas.

Meanwhile, the author of the 1619 Project thinks that the US bombed Hiroshima because Truman fell victim to the sunk cost fallacy.  Let's keep her out of schools too while we're at it.

(Note: I know the source in that link is terrible, but our award-winning NYT journalist deleted that tweet and the MSM obliged in tossing it down the memory hole.  According to google, it seems to only exist in the right-wing swamps which seems like a problem since this is a real thing that she actually said out loud).

 

[jon_mx]

Agreed.

Although, I don't get why people cant see the irony in not okay to be Pro white but it's perfectly okay to be Pro black and even announce it to the masses. It's the same power dynamic and the opposite side of the same coin.

We should all be concerned anytime anyone promotes power for a specific group of people with a specific skin color. Whether that be white, black, purple, green or any other color.

The left is actively promoting supremacy for their pet groups and actively demonize people for being white and male.  How this has become a platform for a major political party is disgusting and they should be ashamed.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

Meanwhile, the author of the 1619 Project thinks that the US bombed Hiroshima because Truman fell victim to the sunk cost fallacy.  Let's keep her out of schools too while we're at it.

(Note: I know the source in that link is terrible, but our award-winning NYT journalist deleted that tweet and the MSM obliged in tossing it down the memory hole.  According to google, it seems to only exist in the right-wing swamps which seems like a problem since this is a real thing that she actually said out loud).

Sure lets equate a tweet, by a professor, with a Bill, setting education standards, introduced by an actual legislator - as equivalent in setting education standards.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Sure lets equate

No, let's not.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

"People who say dumb, ahistorical things shouldn't have a role in shaping educational policy."  Honestly, that seems like a pretty good standard to me.  I will happily apply that standard to state legislators if you will agree to apply that same standard to NHJ.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

No, let's not.

Seems like you already did...

 

[Sinn Fein]

"People who say dumb, ahistorical things shouldn't have a role in shaping educational policy."  Honestly, that seems like a pretty good standard to me.  I will happily apply that standard to state legislators if you will agree to apply that same standard to NHJ.  

Key distinction - what I quoted was part of the actual bill, not something inaccurate on social media.

 

[Sinn Fein]

"People who say dumb, ahistorical things shouldn't have a role in shaping educational policy."  Honestly, that seems like a pretty good standard to me.  I will happily apply that standard to state legislators if you will agree to apply that same standard to NHJ.  

No, let's not.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

One standard for my tribe, another standard for the other tribe.

 

[Boston]

Sure lets equate a tweet, by a professor, with a Bill, setting education standards, introduced by an actual legislator - as equivalent in setting education standards.

The 1619 project is actually being used in schools:

https://www.educationnext.org/1619-project-enters-american-classrooms-adding-new-sizzle-slavery-significant-cost/

The Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting, a Washington, D.C.-based nonprofit that is unaffiliated with the Pulitzer Prizes, released lesson plans and reading guides aimed at bringing The 1619 Project into classrooms. One of the two lesson plans the Pulitzer Center issued during the six months after the project was published focused on the magazine essay by Hannah-Jones. Schools or school districts in Chicago; Newark, N.J.; Buffalo, N.Y., and Washington, D.C. all announced 1619 Project-related events. The Pulitzer Center’s annual report says more than 3,500 classrooms used the materials. Nikole Hannah-Jones spoke at the Whitney Young Magnet High School in Chicago, at Weequahic High School in Newark, at R.J. Reynolds High School in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and at Washington D.C.’s Dunbar High School. She’s a regular presence on college campuses, with appearances in 2020 at Williams College, Morehouse College, Harvard Business School, Stanford, the University of Virginia, and the University of Michigan.

 

[Sinn Fein]

One standard for my tribe, another standard for the other tribe.

You just said - paraphrasing - "lets not equate" - which is what you did.

Now you continue to equate the two.

I, honestly don't understand how you consider an erroneous fact in a tweet - which is unrelated to the 1619 project - as the same as a legislator submitting a bill, which actually sets forth academic standards.

If this was some GOP hack pontificating on twitter - completely different issue, and not something worthy of discussion.  Or, if Ms. Hannah-Jones was a legislator who introduced a bill that required schools teach the 1619 Project - then I could see a "My tribe v. your tribe" argument. 

But, we don't have this here.  And I remain flummoxed about why you want to keep equating the two.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Or, if Ms. Hannah-Jones was a legislator who introduced a bill that required schools teach the 1619 Project 

No, she's just the author of the 1619 Project.  A rando, almost.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

"This state legislator said something stupid.  We should get this person far, far away from schools."

"But Nicole Hannah Jones has said lots of stupid things.  Shouldn't we keep her far, far way from schools too?"

"But she's just the author of the book under discussion."

 

[Sinn Fein]

No, she's just the author of the 1619 Project.  A rando, almost.

Right - but she has no authority to mandate the 1619 project, right?

She is no more rando than a GOP legislator tweeting something erroneous - both would be mostly shrug of shoulders.

But, here we have a person with authority, introducing a bill that is designed to set education standards - quite a step up from a social media post.

And - YOU SAID - lets not equate them - and yet, you continue to try to do that.

 

[Sinn Fein]

"This state legislator said something stupid.  We should get this person far, far away from schools."

He did not just "say" something stupid.

I completely agree with you, if he simply said something stupid.

This is a bill introduced into legislature - that is many steps above "saying something stupid."

The bill is to set education standards - again - huge difference to saying something stupid - this is legislating stupidity.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Trust me, I am not "equating" NHJ with some random state legislator.  They are not equivalent.  We at least agree on that part.

 

[Boston]

"This state legislator said something stupid.  We should get this person far, far away from schools."

"But Nicole Hannah Jones has said lots of stupid things.  Shouldn't we keep her far, far way from schools too?"

"But she's just the author of the book under discussion."

Looks like her work is somehow getting into schools without anyone signing off on it…someone should probably give these Administrators and elected school boards the head’s up they are being circumvented. 

 

[jon_mx]

Looks like her work is somehow getting into schools without anyone signing off on it…someone should probably give these Administrators and elected school boards the head’s up they are being circumvented. 

Yes, instead of elected representatives making public policy, we should have unelected administrators stealthily getting this racist trash into our schools.

-leftist point

 

[Boston]

Hey kids, how about a game of Privilege Bingo!

https://thefederalist.com/2022/01/19/in-defiance-of-youngkin-fairfax-public-school-demands-high-schoolers-participate-in-privilege-bingo/

 

[Philo Beddoe]

Hey kids, how about a game of Privilege Bingo!

https://thefederalist.com/2022/01/19/in-defiance-of-youngkin-fairfax-public-school-demands-high-schoolers-participate-in-privilege-bingo/

Is it just one, some or everything labeled that makes you privileged?

 

[Boston]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/denver-public-school-teaching-kindergartners-blm-guiding-principles-including-disruption-nuclear-family

 

[Manster]

Directly from my kid....7th grader......who's a really good kid, btw.....she would be friends with anyone who is good to her.

She is harassed daily called "white girl"....."we don't like your type"..."can't be racist against white people"..etc.  She takes quite a bit of #### from all sides cuz she's kind of a wallflower, who's unsure of herself, but prolly comes across to the masses as a stuck up white girl I guess

On top of being harassed, she feels like the kids who are minorities, or part of the LGBTQ spectrum get extra protection from teachers and admin.....this is HER observation.

I would like to see every kid be treated with respect.  I was told this wasn't going to happen.  But this IS whats happening.  My family is seeing it firsthand......and we're seeing our daughter's self esteem get trashed.......as is the way of our country, the pendulum always swings too far the other way. 

 

[jon_mx]

It’s a real issue. 
I think Critical Race Theory needs to be taught. I’ve changed my mind on that; I’m for it. But it’s going to piss a lot of parents off and Republicans will be successful running against it. 
 

In 20 years from now this won’t be an issue. The major elements of CRT will be taught everywhere and conservatives won’t bother to fight it. But this sort of struggle occurs every time there is this sort of change and those opposed always win temporary victories. 

In 20 years from now, people will be enlightened to realize CRT was just ugly bigotry.  It is 100 percent thoroughly disgusting the lesson plans and activities which they thrust onto children. 

 

[Soonerman]

It’s a real issue. 
I think Critical Race Theory needs to be taught. I’ve changed my mind on that; I’m for it. But it’s going to piss a lot of parents off and Republicans will be successful running against it. 
 

In 20 years from now this won’t be an issue. The major elements of CRT will be taught everywhere and conservatives won’t bother to fight it. But this sort of struggle occurs every time there is this sort of change and those opposed always win temporary victories. 

So we're going to be a majority Marxist country then?

 

[KarmaPolice]

Is it just one, some or everything labeled that makes you privileged?

That fact that you don't know means you need to check your privilege, Philo.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Directly from my kid....7th grader......who's a really good kid, btw.....she would be friends with anyone who is good to her.

She is harassed daily called "white girl"....."we don't like your type"..."can't be racist against white people"..etc.  She takes quite a bit of #### from all sides cuz she's kind of a wallflower, who's unsure of herself, but prolly comes across to the masses as a stuck up white girl I guess

On top of being harassed, she feels like the kids who are minorities, or part of the LGBTQ spectrum get extra protection from teachers and admin.....this is HER observation.

I would like to see every kid be treated with respect.  I was told this wasn't going to happen.  But this IS whats happening.  My family is seeing it firsthand......and we're seeing our daughter's self esteem get trashed.......as is the way of our country, the pendulum always swings too far the other way. 

That's b.s. that your daughter has to go through that.  breaks my heart as a parent  reading that.