LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBT+ Thread (3 Viewers)

[supermike80]

Despite the strenuous efforts of you and @IvanKaramazov to straw-man this into "People are arguing in favor of bringing your kids to drag brunches", that's not what we're debating here. You expressed the opinion that the state should institute legal action against parents who bring their kids to these shows. So yes, there kind of needs to be a line. That's how laws work.

As a reminder, here is the relevant Florida statute:

If you want to argue that these parents should be investigated, you have to demonstrate that their actions "threaten the life, safety, well-being, physical, mental or emotional health of the child". All of the other examples you guys keep bringing up meet those legal criteria. I'm still waiting for someone to explain why attending a drag brunch does.

Ok. You win

 

[Philo Beddoe]

We are literally not

We are literally not

Did you watch the video and do you think it’s appropriate and should be legal for children to participate in a catwalk with a woman with her bewbs and butt hanging out? Seems to me you guys are actually defending this

 

[FairWarning]

Ivan’s a smart, thinking guy and I agree with him on a lot of stuff. Even when I disagree with him, I usually find him very thoughtful and sometimes he changes my mind. 
But on this and related “woke” issues I think he’s basically fallen for the fearmongering, conspiratorial, right wing talk show narrative. 

Can you give us some team Blue positions that you are against?   

 

[BladeRunner]

Ivan’s a smart, thinking guy and I agree with him on a lot of stuff. Even when I disagree with him, I usually find him very thoughtful and sometimes he changes my mind. 
But on this and related “woke” issues I think he’s basically fallen for the fearmongering, conspiratorial, right wing talk show narrative. 

"I agree with Ivan until he disagrees with me"

 

[SoBeDad]

Not a woke Disney property, but also in Kissimmee, is a family-friendly nudist resort with a young child and parents on the home page. The Cheeks Bar and Grill has 4.5 stars. No complaints from anyone about parents bringing young kids to this place.

I think there is a mix of transphobia and homophobia going on in this thread. 

Welcome to CYPRESS COVE NUDIST RESORT

 

[timschochet]

Do we have to support all of these issues?

Well, name the issue and I’ll tell you. 

 

[timschochet]

"I agree with Ivan until he disagrees with me"

That’s true of everybody isn’t it? 

 

[BladeRunner]

We are literally not

All of your posts indicate that under the guise of "parent's rights!!", but that's just a smoke screen.  You're condoning that behavior.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

And yet, here you guys are defending that stuff. 

This thing is completely harmless and you guys who say otherwise are just buying into harmful tropes, but we're totally not defending it or anything like that.  

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

All of your posts indicate that under the guise of "parent's rights!!", but that's just a smoke screen.  

You must have me confused with Ron DeSantis

 

[timschochet]

Question for those you who are the most upset about this: do you object to exposing young children to drag queens, trans people, or homosexuals who are not engaged in explicit lewd behavior? If so, please explain why. 

 

[BladeRunner]

Not a woke Disney property, but also in Kissimmee, is a family-friendly nudist resort with a young child and parents on the home page. The Cheeks Bar and Grill has 4.5 stars. No complaints from anyone about parents bringing young kids to this place.

I think there is a mix of transphobia and homophobia going on in this thread. 

Welcome to CYPRESS COVE NUDIST RESORT

EVERYONE DRINK!   

Another liberal accuses everyone of "*-phobia" because they don't agree! 

Actually, the reality is that there's a mix of no common sense and liberal dogma going on.

 

[BladeRunner]

You must have me confused with Ron DeSantis

Nope, I think maybe I confused you with @ignatiusjreilly instead.

 

[timschochet]

This thing is completely harmless and you guys who say otherwise are just buying into harmful tropes, but we're totally not defending it or anything like that.  

Who has said it’s completely harmless? 

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Not a woke Disney property, but also in Kissimmee, is a family-friendly nudist resort with a young child and parents on the home page. The Cheeks Bar and Grill has 4.5 stars. No complaints from anyone about parents bringing young kids to this place.

I think there is a mix of transphobia and homophobia going on in this thread. 

Welcome to CYPRESS COVE NUDIST RESORT

Here's my take on this resort:

Maybe this is a crazy take, guess we'll find out.

I would never take my daughter to an event like this. Never have, never would. 

You do you though.

Now, because I would never take my daughter to an event like this, does that mean I want government investigations and punishment for those I disagree with? No. Because this is America.

That's the big difference I see nowadays that really has me worried about the direction of the country. The authoritarian nature of "I don't agree with that, therefore punishment". What the hell are we doing here folks?

 

[SoBeDad]

Did you watch the video and do you think it’s appropriate and should be legal for children to participate in a catwalk with a woman with her bewbs and butt hanging out? Seems to me you guys are actually defending this

I've seen more flesh on the beach this summer. Including parents with young kids. When the Europeans come, the tops often come off.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Also, I don't understand what's homophobic or transphobic about not wanting toddlers in strip clubs.  I have it on good authority that some strip clubs cater to straight men.  I don't want kids in those.

 

[BladeRunner]

Who has said it’s completely harmless? 

Not a woke Disney property, but also in Kissimmee, is a family-friendly nudist resort with a young child and parents on the home page. The Cheeks Bar and Grill has 4.5 stars. No complaints from anyone about parents bringing young kids to this place.

I think there is a mix of transphobia and homophobia going on in this thread. 

Welcome to CYPRESS COVE NUDIST RESORT

If you’re going to ban kids from drag brunches I think there should be an exception when daddy is actually in the show.

There are a lot of things other parents do that I don't get. I try not to get too judgmental unless it seems to be causing active harm. And I certainly don't want the state coming after their parental rights unless they clear a very high bar.

And that's just on the last two pages. 

 

[bigbottom]

Guys, I’d be 100% fine with my kids attending Drag Queen Story Hour. I wouldn’t be worried about taking my kids to the local Drag Show and Dinner that I’ve attended here in Houston. That video is on a completely different level. For me, it has nothing to do with the drag aspect. Indeed, to me there is little if any “art of drag” in that video.

Now, I don’t think the parents should be investigated or arrested or anything. But it would not surprise me in the least if what is depicted in the video violated some local ordinance and the establishment faced some inquiry. That show should not be billed as toddler-friendly with a kids menu. If they’re going to do that, they should tone down the nudity a lot. Maybe that makes me a prude. But I’m big time on the LGBT-rights side of things, so maybe we should take a breath and consider what we are defending. 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Good Lord, if you didn't have straw-man arguments, you'd have no arguments at all.

Seriously, this is amazing to watch. A whole team of conservatives trying to a wish a perspective on the people they consider to be their "opponents" just so they can have a place to put their anger. Thanks for your patience, which has allowed the rest of us to enjoy this hilarious spectacle without having to fully engage.

Sorry to disappoint you all, but for the umpteenth time: nobody here thinks parents should take their young children to enjoy sexually explicit entertainment. Don't despair, conservatives- I'm sure at some point someone will slip up and say something you can twist into tacit approval of whatever it is you are chomping at the bit to hate on.

 

[FairWarning]

Maybe this is a crazy take, guess we'll find out.

I would never take my daughter to an event like this. Never have, never would. 

You do you though.

Now, because I would never take my daughter to an event like this, does that mean I want government investigations and punishment for those I disagree with? No. Because this is America.

That's the big difference I see nowadays that really has me worried about the direction of the country. The authoritarian nature of "I don't agree with that, therefore punishment". What the hell are we doing here folks?

Just boycott states like California. This doesn’t apply to Newsom’s vacation  though.  

 

[timschochet]

Can you give us some team Blue positions that you are against?   

Not really relevant to this thread but off the top of my head: 

Liberal opposition to nuclear energy, the Green New Deal, ending the capital gains tax, ending the homeowners deduction, attacking rich people for the crime of being rich. 
 

I’m sure there are others. I would have to say that when it comes to cultural issues such as this one I’m pretty much on board with the liberal agenda. So far as it goes. 

 

[bigbottom]

Not a woke Disney property, but also in Kissimmee, is a family-friendly nudist resort with a young child and parents on the home page. The Cheeks Bar and Grill has 4.5 stars. No complaints from anyone about parents bringing young kids to this place.

I think there is a mix of transphobia and homophobia going on in this thread. 

Welcome to CYPRESS COVE NUDIST RESORT

I find it difficult to complain about things I don’t know about. 

 

[timschochet]

Also, I don't understand what's homophobic or transphobic about not wanting toddlers in strip clubs.  I have it on good authority that some strip clubs cater to straight men.  I don't want kids in those.

Do you object to drag queens reading stories to young children? 

 

[Philo Beddoe]

Question for those you who are the most upset about this: do you object to exposing young children to drag queens, trans people, or homosexuals who are not engaged in explicit lewd behavior? If so, please explain why. 

No of course not and no explanation is needed other than I’m not homo/transphobic. What we are talking about here is the normalization and acceptance of exposing porn to children. I know you never view links but if you viewed that link I apologize. If you found it inappropriate could YOU explain why? If you found it appropriate I think there is something wrong with you (not you specifically unless you found it appropriate).

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Do you object to drag queens reading stories to young children? 

Of course.  And as BB noted the video in question isn't that -- it's way beyond that.

(I'm open to the argument that I just don't "get" drag.  That's no problem, but that's also not what this video is about.)

 

[bigbottom]

Seriously, this is amazing to watch. A whole team of conservatives trying to a wish a perspective on the people they consider to be their "opponents" just so they can have a place to put their anger. Thanks for your patience, which has allowed the rest of us to enjoy this hilarious spectacle without having to fully engage.

Similarly, I’m seeing posts where liberal posters (other than me) are trying to wish an anti-LGBT perspective on those of us who are objecting to what is depicted in the video.

 

[bigbottom]

Of course.  And as BB noted the video in question isn't that -- it's way beyond that.

Of course or of course not?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Of course or of course not?

Of course.  I would not have wanted my kids exposed to drag performers at a young age.  IMO, that's inappropriately sexual.

Maybe there are non-sexualized variations of drag that I would have no issue with.  My frame of reference is the sexualized variety.  I see this as being kind of like "Would you have any problem with a gay guy reading books to kids?"  My gay coworkers?  Totally fine.  Some guy in assless chaps?  No thanks.  It's the "sexualized" part that I'm objecting to, not the identity politics part.

 

[timschochet]

No of course not and no explanation is needed other than I’m not homo/transphobic. What we are talking about here is the normalization and acceptance of exposing porn to children. I know you never view links but if you viewed that link I apologize. If you found it inappropriate could YOU explain why? If you found it appropriate I think there is something wrong with you (not you specifically unless you found it appropriate).

First, I’m glad to read this. So unlike Ivan and others you have no objection to drag queens reading stories to young children? 
 

Second, I did watch the video and it was inappropriate because I don’t believe that young children should be exposed to lewd sexual behavior. In the larger scheme of things I don’t think it’s that big a deal (exposing children to violence or the gun culture or political xenophobia is far worse IMO) but it’s not good behavior. 

 

[timschochet]

Of course.  I would not have wanted my kids exposed to drag performers at a young age.  IMO, that's inappropriately sexual.

Maybe there are non-sexualized variations of drag that I would have no issue with.  My frame of reference is the sexualized variety.

Why is a drag Queen reading a story “inappropriately sexual”? 

 

[timschochet]

I want to add too that almost every repressive society in history has used “think of the children!” as their main argument for the repression. 
 

(And yes before my detractors point this out, I acknowledge that this can and does often apply to certain excessive types of gun control proposals.) 

 

[AAABatteries]

I know very little about the ins and outs of drag shows in general or this one in particular, but considering that drag queens are, by definition, men who dress up as women, I'm going to assume the answer is yes.

Devil’s advocate time

This sounds very similar to the argument some are making about the definition of a woman.  Why can’t we have female drag queens?

 

[AAABatteries]

I find it difficult to complain about things I don’t know about. 

You won’t fit in around the PSF then - it’s what we do.

 

[djmich]

Why is a drag Queen reading a story “inappropriately sexual”? 

It's not any more inappropriately sexual than a stripper reading a story

 

[timschochet]

It's not any more inappropriately sexual than a stripper reading a story

As long as the stripper isn’t stripping while she’s reading I don’t have a problem, do you? 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Similarly, I’m seeing posts where liberal posters (other than me) are trying to wish an anti-LGBT perspective on those of us who are objecting to what is depicted in the video.

I haven't seen those posts, but that would be silly. We should always assume the best of people and go from there.

But in many cases, there's plenty of actual evidence of an anti-LGBTQ perspective from many posters here, including a bunch of posts in the last 24 hours. I think it's fair to engage posters under the assumption that they have an anti-LGBTQ perspective when they've repeatedly shown it. It's not really the same as wrongly assuming that people support and endorse showing sexually explicit material to small children, a perspective I've never seen anyone take in all my years here.

 

[urbanhack]

It's not any more inappropriately sexual than a stripper reading a story

Yes...just like strippers

https://traveloregon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/2018Summer_PoisonWaters_group.jpg

 

[djmich]

As long as the stripper isn’t stripping while she’s reading I don’t have a problem, do you? 

Of course, if the stripper is wearing the same outfit as the teacher would typically wear I'd be totally fine with it. 

I'd say the same for a drag queen, but then it wouldn't really be a drag queen reading to kids it would be an adult indistinguishable from a drag queen.

 

[Philo Beddoe]

First, I’m glad to read this. So unlike Ivan and others you have no objection to drag queens reading stories to young children? 
 

Second, I did watch the video and it was inappropriate because I don’t believe that young children should be exposed to lewd sexual behavior. In the larger scheme of things I don’t think it’s that big a deal (exposing children to violence or the gun culture or political xenophobia is far worse IMO) but it’s not good behavior. 

I’m not really sure why this is a thing to be honest with you. Why is there a need to push children in front of drag queens to begin with? The fact that it is pushed through government institutions and decided on be elected officials like “select boards” in heavy leftwing areas is certainly a concern.

Also, I guess it depends. Cat in the Hat read by a regular gay dude who likes to dress up like a woman probably not too much of an issue but still don’t understand the desire to dress as a woman and read to children. If it were done without my knowledge and the reader is a registered child sex offender, yeah I’d have a problem with that.

Houston Public Library admits registered child sex offender read to kids in Drag Queen Storytime

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Ivan’s a smart, thinking guy and I agree with him on a lot of stuff. Even when I disagree with him, I usually find him very thoughtful and sometimes he changes my mind. 
But on this and related “woke” issues I think he’s basically fallen for the fearmongering, conspiratorial, right wing talk show narrative. 

Here's one of the things that worries me about the current state of our discourse: Particularly with the rise of QAnon, charges of pedophilia are becoming increasingly common. There's a fairly prevalent right-wing conspiracy theory that our current president is a pedophile, which I'm pretty sure is a first in our nation's history. (To be fair, there have also been some pretty horrific pedophilia scandals uncovered over the past couple decades, so the fears are hardly groundless).

And of course, the nature of conspiracy theories is that to challenge any aspect of them is to invite charges that you are somehow in on the conspiracy. This conspiratorial mindset is how we went from "Parents shouldn't be investigated by CPS for bringing their kids to a drag brunch" to "You support bringing toddlers to strip clubs". Or "If you're in favor of teaching kids about gender identity, you must be a groomer (ie, a pedophile)."

It's pretty tough to engage in a reasoned debate with someone if they're accusing you of being objectively pro-pedophile. It's tough for political parties to achieve compromise with opposition parties (or accept the legitimacy of their electoral victories) if their base believes the opposition is complicit in pedophilia.

Pedophilia is one of the most horrific crimes imaginable, but precisely for that reason, when accusations start to get thrown around wily-nily, it completely poisons our discourse.

I don't have any solutions to this problem. It just makes me sad.

 

[Philo Beddoe]

Here's one of the things that worries me about the current state of our discourse: Particularly with the rise of QAnon, charges of pedophilia are becoming increasingly common. There's a fairly prevalent right-wing conspiracy theory that our current president is a pedophile, which I'm pretty sure is a first in our nation's history. (To be fair, there have also been some pretty horrific pedophilia scandals uncovered over the past couple decades, so the fears are hardly groundless).

And of course, the nature of conspiracy theories is that to challenge any aspect of them is to invite charges that you are somehow in on the conspiracy. This conspiratorial mindset is how we went from "Parents shouldn't be investigated by CPS for bringing their kids to a drag brunch" to "You support bringing toddlers to strip clubs". Or "If you're in favor of teaching kids about gender identity, you must be a groomer (ie, a pedophile)."

It's pretty tough to engage in a reasoned debate with someone if they're accusing you of being objectively pro-pedophile. It's tough for political parties to achieve compromise with opposition parties (or accept the legitimacy of their electoral victories) if their base believes the opposition is complicit in pedophilia.

Pedophilia is one of the most horrific crimes imaginable, but precisely for that reason, when accusations start to get thrown around wily-nily, it completely poisons our discourse.

I don't have any solutions to this problem. It just makes me sad.

What worries me is why Ghislaine Maxwell is behind bars, but her clients still remain free and anonymous... Also, Jeffrey Epstein didn’t kill himself.

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

I’m not really sure why this is a thing to be honest with you. Why is there a need to push children in front of drag queens to begin with? The fact that it is pushed through government institutions and decided on be elected officials like “select boards” in heavy leftwing areas is certainly a concern.

Also, I guess it depends. Cat in the Hat read by a regular gay dude who likes to dress up like a woman probably not too much of an issue but still don’t understand the desire to dress as a woman and read to children. If it were done without my knowledge and the reader is a registered child sex offender, yeah I’d have a problem with that.

Houston Public Library admits registered child sex offender read to kids in Drag Queen Storytime

Regarding why it is a thing: here you go. Basically, some activists started doing it in 2015 as a way to normalize the LGBTQ+ community with a generation whose biases have not yet formed, reassure young children who may be part of or inclined to join the LGBTQ+ community that they were not alone, do something nice for kids/the community- pretty standard stuff.

For what it's worth, drag performers also seem uniquely well-suited for the job: they are performers, they're used to reading cues from the audience and adjusting/responding accordingly, they tend to dress and act in attention-getting ways that seem to appeal to kids (bright colors, unusual style choices, etc). 

Basically it was just a nice, inclusive thing in some of our major cities and a few other places for a while. Nobody really cared about it one way or the other, at least not any more than we cared about other events for kids in the city. Then the far right found out about them and it was culture war time, and, well, here we are.

 

[djmich]

Regarding why it is a thing: here you go. Basically, some activists started doing it in 2015 as a way to normalize the LGBTQ+ community with a generation whose biases have not yet formed, reassure young children who may be part of or inclined to join the LGBTQ+ community that they were not alone, do something nice for kids/the community- pretty standard stuff.

For what it's worth, drag performers also seem uniquely well-suited for the job: they are performers, they're used to reading cues from the audience and adjusting/responding accordingly, they tend to dress and act in attention-getting ways that seem to appeal to kids (bright colors, unusual style choices, etc). 

Basically it was just a nice, inclusive thing in some of our major cities and a few other places for a while. Nobody really cared about it one way or the other, at least not any more than we cared about other events for kids in the city. Then the far right found out about them and it was culture war time, and, well, here we are.

I understand the intent here.  What I don't understand is how drag queens are supposed to be representative of the gay or lesbian community?  For communities that are looking to be normalized it would seem that drag queens are the opposite of normal or representative of what those communities wear or how they behave, they are caricatures.

It would be interesting to see how well "do you want drag queens representing you to children" polled with the LGBTQ community. 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

I understand the intent here.  What I don't understand is how drag queens are supposed to be representative of the gay or lesbian community?  For communities that are looking to be normalized it would seem that drag queens are the opposite of normal or representative of what those communities wear or how they behave, they are caricatures.

It would be interesting to see how well "do you want drag queens representing you to children" polled with the LGBTQ community. 

Dunno, it's not my deal. My guess is that it has something to do with the performance angle and the fact that you can't really ID many gay and lesbian people on sight.  If we're being reasonable I think most of us would admit that, for example, RuPaul would probably do a much better job of holding young reader's attention than Nate Silver. I think they also wanted to introduce the idea of gender fluidity, and maybe there's a certain "art" or creativity aspect to drag that appeals to kids too. Who knows.

For my money, anyone who wants to entertain my kids for free in public for 30 minutes while I read emails/check the fantasy sports waiver wire/try not to get caught ogling area moms is A-OK with me. It's not like I'm dropping the gang off in a dark alley at 2 AM.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

Have you heard Ariana Grande's lyrics, or seen how she and the kids dress at her concerts?

 at a swim fashion show where many models had nothing but paint. At Wet Dreams, there are genitalia-shaped desserts, And just north of Miami Beach is a well known nudist beach, Haulover.

also in Kissimmee, is a family-friendly nudist resort with a young child and parents on the home page.

When the Europeans come, the tops often come off.

I really want to hang out with sobedad for a weekend.

 

[squistion]

I understand the intent here.  What I don't understand is how drag queens are supposed to be representative of the gay or lesbian community?  For communities that are looking to be normalized it would seem that drag queens are the opposite of normal or representative of what those communities wear or how they behave, they are caricatures.

It would be interesting to see how well "do you want drag queens representing you to children" polled with the LGBTQ community. 

They have been considered part of the gay and lesbian community since the late 60s, going back to the Stonewall Riots, which were sparked by police who started arresting the drag queens at the bar (with some other patrons added later). 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I really want to hang out with sobedad for a weekend.

You've been groomed!

Also, you should just move to Miami. All of the stuff @SoBeDad is describing is more commonly known here as "Tuesday".

 

[djmich]

They have been considered part of the gay and lesbian community since the late 60s, going back to the Stonewall Riots, which were sparked by police who started arresting the drag queens at the bar (with some other patrons added later). 

Thanks, I wasn't aware if they were officially considered part of the community (I guess that's why the + is there).

But the question is not really are they part of the community but whether or not the folks in the rest of the community (the other 95%+) want drag queens to be their ambassadors to young children.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Here's one of the things that worries me about the current state of our discourse: Particularly with the rise of QAnon, charges of pedophilia are becoming increasingly common. There's a fairly prevalent right-wing conspiracy theory that our current president is a pedophile, which I'm pretty sure is a first in our nation's history. (To be fair, there have also been some pretty horrific pedophilia scandals uncovered over the past couple decades, so the fears are hardly groundless).

And of course, the nature of conspiracy theories is that to challenge any aspect of them is to invite charges that you are somehow in on the conspiracy. This conspiratorial mindset is how we went from "Parents shouldn't be investigated by CPS for bringing their kids to a drag brunch" to "You support bringing toddlers to strip clubs". Or "If you're in favor of teaching kids about gender identity, you must be a groomer (ie, a pedophile)."

It's pretty tough to engage in a reasoned debate with someone if they're accusing you of being objectively pro-pedophile. It's tough for political parties to achieve compromise with opposition parties (or accept the legitimacy of their electoral victories) if their base believes the opposition is complicit in pedophilia.

Pedophilia is one of the most horrific crimes imaginable, but precisely for that reason, when accusations start to get thrown around wily-nily, it completely poisons our discourse.

I don't have any solutions to this problem. It just makes me sad.

I can't speak for the QAnon types, but for me personally, I'm very comfortable using terms like "pedophilia" to describe what's happening in the video that we're all responding to.  Taking a little kid to a strip club where they can hang out with half-naked strippers is walking right up to the line of outright pedophilia.  And you seem basically cool with that, so . . . .