LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBT+ Thread (2 Viewers)

[bigbottom]

I mean, it's not unwritten. The literal definition of a drag queen is "a man who dresses up in women's clothes, typically for the purposes of entertainment." 

Apparently there was a big dust up on this very topic with Ru-Paul’s Drag Race reality competition a few years back. 

 

[supermike80]

You're entitled to think that. But the law doesn't allow CPS to engage in fishing expeditions on parents because you find their behavior "morally questionable".

But I'll tell you what: Go ahead and call Florida DCF, point them to that video, and ask them to initiate investigations of all the parents who appear in it. Then come back here and tell us their reaction.

Don't delay! You never know what kind of drug-fueled promiscuous sex those kids are being exposed to at this very minute!

Dude...Im telling you my opinion.  OK?  The law doesn't allow it then fine.....Doesn't mean I cant think it's disgusting and those parents should be investigated.

Clearly the child services department is horrible all around the place.    This is nothing new.  

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Maybe this is a crazy take, guess we'll find out.

I would never take my daughter to an event like this. Never have, never would. 

You do you though.

Now, because I would never take my daughter to an event like this, does that mean I want government investigations and punishment for those I disagree with? No. Because this is America.

That's the big difference I see nowadays that really has me worried about the direction of the country. The authoritarian nature of "I don't agree with that, therefore punishment". What the hell are we doing here folks?

 

[supermike80]

Maybe this is a crazy take, guess we'll find out.

I would never take my daughter to an event like this. Never have, never would. 

You do you though.

Now, because I would never take my daughter to an event like this, does that mean I want government investigations and punishment for those I disagree with? No. Because this is America.

That's the big difference I see nowadays that really has me worried about the direction of the country. The authoritarian nature of "I don't agree with that, therefore punishment". What the hell are we doing here folks?

Well to me, if I saw a parent beating their child, I wouldn't sit by and let it happen.  Whatever happened to the "it takes a village" mindset?

 

[KarmaPolice]

Even if that were the case, they are SIMULATING nudity at best - still indecent, improper and vile to take a kid to this type of stuff.

So this is no different, IMO, as if they were actually nude.

The fact that grown men, who I assume have seen and interacted with breasts, are having a debate if they are real or not probably indicates that they are real enough that the kids don't need them flopping out in their face.     

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Maybe this is a crazy take, guess we'll find out.

I would never take my daughter to an event like this. Never have, never would. 

You do you though.

Now, because I would never take my daughter to an event like this, does that mean I want government investigations and punishment for those I disagree with? No. Because this is America.

That's the big difference I see nowadays that really has me worried about the direction of the country. The authoritarian nature of "I don't agree with that, therefore punishment". What the hell are we doing here folks?

IMO these stories are kind of wastes of time and counterproductive, but one benefit they provide is taking the mask off the whole "parental choice" movement. It was transparently stupid to begin with, but now they can't even pretend it's about protecting parent's rights to make choices about their children. 

 

[Philo Beddoe]

I saw some big beautiful bewbs. This is no different than taking a child to a strip club. I’m just trying to keep my daughters off the pole. 

 

[Manster]

Far better to take them to a gun show. 

I grew up going to gun shows, usually to get a good deal on hunting ammo, or a scope for my rifle, or whatever......good wholesome fun.  My parents weren't really into drag shows so we didn't go to those. 

I will, at some point, take my kids to a gun show cuz they like to shoot......we prolly won't make it to a drag show.......here's the deal......it's weird.  I mean I don't really care if people do it, but it is weird.  Why are we trying to normalize drag shows?  

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Well to me, if I saw a parent beating their child, I wouldn't sit by and let it happen.  Whatever happened to the "it takes a village" mindset?

I missed where we were discussing parents beating their children. I see your point, but that's not the slam dunk you seem to think it is which I'll address in a moment.

It takes a village is more akin to "can you give my daughter a ride home from the soccer field tonight?". Not "I disagree with your parenting and you should be punished as a result."

Do you butt in to parental interactions as a matter of course? If you see a Dad sternly yelling at his son in a manner you don't agree with, do you get involved? Try this a few times and see how that works out. To be fair, if physical violence is involved I would also intervene. But that's not where you're drawing the line. You want the parents investigated and punished for what was shown on the video. You only introduced physical violence because you needed a crutch for your position.

Look, I realize it's frustrating that there are parents out there who would take their kid to this event. We agree that's poor parenting, in our opinion. Where we disagree is having the government getting involved with investigating and punishing these people. That's fundamentally un-American, IMO. I don't decide for you, you don't decide for me. We each get to decide. That's what I want in America, even if I don't agree with their decision.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

The fact that grown men, who I assume have seen and interacted with breasts, are having a debate if they are real or not probably indicates that they are real enough that the kids don't need them flopping out in their face.     

Man, I'll never forget the first time I interacted with breasts ...

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

I grew up going to gun shows, usually to get a good deal on hunting ammo, or a scope for my rifle, or whatever......good wholesome fun.  My parents weren't really into drag shows so we didn't go to those. 

I will, at some point, take my kids to a gun show cuz they like to shoot......we prolly won't make it to a drag show.......here's the deal......it's weird.  I mean I don't really care if people do it, but it is weird.  Why are we trying to normalize drag shows?  

There's no conscious effort to "normalize" drag shows. They're a subculture that has been present in urban areas for a long time. My city has had drag queen brunches, drag queen bingo, and drag queen family feud for decades- I've lived here 25+ years and I can't remember a time without them. BTW the last one was by far the best option- it was called "Faygele Feud" (faygele being a derogatory yiddish word for homosexual), and was hosting by a drag Jewish Grandmother. If that doesn't sound fun to you, I can't help you.

Anyway, the only new trend here is Libs of Tik Tok types and other recently empowered social conservatives and reactionaries opening a new front in their ongoing culture wars. Everyone else involved would be more than happy to live and let live.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Well to me, if I saw a parent beating their child, I wouldn't sit by and let it happen.  Whatever happened to the "it takes a village" mindset?

I'll repeat the question I asked earlier in the thread: I totally get -- and mostly agree with -- the idea that this is inappropriate, bad parenting, etc. But what is the actual harm being done to these kids that makes it equivalent to physical abuse?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm genuinely curious about something: People in this thread have been throwing around terms like "evil" and "child abuse". What do they think are the specific harms being done to children exposed to sexually explicit drag shows? 

Why not just let your kids watch porn while you're at it?  

 

[supermike80]

I'll repeat the question I asked earlier in the thread: I totally get -- and mostly agree with -- the idea that this is inappropriate, bad parenting, etc. But what is the actual harm being done to these kids that makes it equivalent to physical abuse?

Its not equivalent obviously. I was just using that to counter your contention that people should ignore what other parents do.  

 

[supermike80]

Why not just let your kids watch porn while you're at it?  

I guess it's allowed as long as its crossdresser porn

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Why not just let your kids watch porn while you're at it?  

Do you think what was in that video was equivalent to porn? If there were a scene like that in an actual movie I doubt it would even be rated R

Anyway, you still didn't answer my question: Let's say your young child somehow ended up going to a drag brunch. Do you think it would harm them? Would you be worried about how it would impact their mental well being?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Its not equivalent obviously. I was just using that to counter your contention that people should ignore what other parents do.  

I certainly never said that. Obviously people should not ignore parents who are harming their children. Which is why I asked what harm you think this is causing.

 

[Manster]

There's no conscious effort to "normalize" drag shows. They're a subculture that has been present in urban areas for a long time. My city has had drag queen brunches, drag queen bingo, and drag queen family feud for decades- I've lived here 25+ years and I can't remember a time without them. BTW the last one was by far the best option- it was called "Faygele Feud" (faygele being a derogatory yiddish word for homosexual), and was hosting by a drag Jewish Grandmother. If that doesn't sound fun to you, I can't help you.

Anyway, the only new trend here is Libs of Tik Tok types and other recently empowered social conservatives and reactionaries opening a new front in their ongoing culture wars. Everyone else involved would be more than happy to live and let live.

Not my kind of fun, but to each their own.

I truly mean that.......have fun at ur drag shows.   Also, it should be ok that some of us don't wanna go to em, or especially take our kids to one.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Maybe this is a crazy take, guess we'll find out.

I would never take my daughter to an event like this. Never have, never would. 

You do you though.

Now, because I would never take my daughter to an event like this, does that mean I want government investigations and punishment for those I disagree with? No. Because this is America.

That's the big difference I see nowadays that really has me worried about the direction of the country. The authoritarian nature of "I don't agree with that, therefore punishment". What the hell are we doing here folks?

I normally agree with this line of argument, but there's a point at which we rightly expect the state to step in and protect the interests of vulnerable people who can't protect themselves.  Children specifically.  

People make bad parenting decisions all the time that we just roll with.  Letting your kid watch too much tv, letting them ride their bike without a helmet, giving them ice cream that they don't really need, etc.  That stuff is all questionable, but it's not the sort of thing that we're going to police.

On the other hand, the state will intervene if you let your kids ride in a car without a seatbelt.  The state will intervene if you let your kid drink beer.  The state will step in if you let your kid smoke, or if you don't feed them, etc.  

IMO, taking your kid to a strip club (!) is more like the stuff in the third paragraph than the stuff in the second paragraph.  I don't have any special philosophical objection to the state stepping in to enforce age limits on sex work.

 

[Manster]

Do you think what was in that video was equivalent to porn? If there were a scene like that in an actual movie I doubt it would even be rated R

Anyway, you still didn't answer my question: Let's say your young child somehow ended up going to a drag brunch. Do you think it would harm them? Would you be worried about how it would impact their mental well being?

I think it's confusing, and may have an undesired impact on them.  I'm still trying to understand why anyone would even want to take their young kids to something like this......really want to go, and dont have a sitter??  Seems like more of an adult kind of thing.

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Not my kind of fun, but to each their own.

I truly mean that.......have fun at ur drag shows.   Also, it should be ok that some of us don't wanna go to em, or especially take our kids to one.

Not only is it OK, but I feel fairly comfortable assuming that the performers and regulars would prefer it.

 

[Manster]

Not only is it OK, but I feel fairly comfortable assuming that the performers and regulars would prefer it.

I see your point. 

How bout......as long as they don't expect this to become mainstream.....like goin to schools, etc.  The whole drag queen story time thing is too much, imo.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I think it's confusing, and may have an undesired impact on them.  I'm still trying to understand why anyone would even want to take their young kids to something like this......really want to go, and dont have a sitter??  Seems like more of an adult kind of thing.

There are a lot of things other parents do that I don't get. I try not to get too judgmental unless it seems to be causing active harm. And I certainly don't want the state coming after their parental rights unless they clear a very high bar.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

I think it's confusing, and may have an undesired impact on them.  I'm still trying to understand why anyone would even want to take their young kids to something like this......really want to go, and dont have a sitter??  Seems like more of an adult kind of thing.

For some people this woke nonsense is like their religion. For some this is like taking their children to church.

 

[supermike80]

I certainly never said that. Obviously people should not ignore parents who are harming their children. Which is why I asked what harm you think this is causing.

Dude...I just cant.  Is there a line here?  When do you think it goes too far?  If they were walking around totally naked you could also say "what's the harm--nudity is natural"  What if they were having sex in the open?  "Well sex is natural" good god.  If you can;t see why this was bad, I don't know what to say.

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

I see your point. 

How bout......as long as they don't expect this to become mainstream.....like goin to schools, etc.  The whole drag queen story time thing is too much, imo.

I'll be honest with you- I was kind of in the same place a little while back. I took one of my kids to a local library for some fairy princess story time thing and one of the people dressed up as Disney princesses appeared to be a transgender woman, and I kind of reflexively was taken aback and wasn't 100% comfortable with having my little one there. It just felt "off." This is a weird admission for a board progressive, I know, but I think we should be open about the fact that transgenders have become more mainstream in the last decade and it's gonna take a beat for some people to adjust.

For me, that adjustment was instantaneous-  I asked myself why I was uncomfortable, and I realized there was no good reason. This person was not dressed inappropriately other than the fact that her clothes didn't match what I was guessing to be her birth gender, and they were willing to take time out of their day to read to children, each and every one of whom cared a lot more about her frilly pink dress then the nature of the genitalia under it. I don't expect everyone to have the same experience, but as long as they are open-minded about it that's a good start. IMO anyone who wants to take time out of their day to read to children at the library is most likely a decent human being.

FWIW I wouldn't really want a sexualized drag queen in a bikini or leather fetish gear or 6 inch stilletos and fishnet stockings reading to kids at 11 AM at the local library. But I really wouldn't really want a sexualized cisgender woman in a bikini or leather wear or fishnet stockings reading to kids at 11 AM at the local library ... unless she was really, really attractive   And while I understand why our standards are different for the trans or drag performer at the moment, I don't really think they should be or need to be.

 

[dkp993]

I grew up going to gun shows, usually to get a good deal on hunting ammo, or a scope for my rifle, or whatever......good wholesome fun.  My parents weren't really into drag shows so we didn't go to those. 

I will, at some point, take my kids to a gun show cuz they like to shoot......we prolly won't make it to a drag show.......here's the deal......it's weird.  I mean I don't really care if people do it, but it is weird.  Why are we trying to normalize drag shows?  

Personally I don’t feel like for kids a strip club or a gun show is wholesome fun.  For adults that’s a personal choice, but kids, no sir.  But while I think that is bad parenting and not something I’d do I also don’t want the government involved in that choice.  It’s a slippery slope when we let the government dictate what our morals should be.*

*yes I understand they do already with certain things. But we need to keep it at a bare minimum as it’s a Pandora’s box.  

 

[dgreen]

Personally I don’t feel like for kids a strip club or a gun show is wholesome fun.  For adults that’s a personal choice, but kids, no sir.  But while I think that is bad parenting and not something I’d do I also don’t want the government involved in that choice.  It’s a slippery slope when we let the government dictate what our morals should be.*

*yes I understand they do already with certain things. But we need to keep it at a bare minimum as it’s a Pandora’s box.  

I assume there are already laws regarding kids and strip clubs. Are you saying you think those laws should be removed?

 

[dkp993]

I assume there are already laws regarding kids and strip clubs. Are you saying you think those laws should be removed?

Thanks, I should better clarify.

No, and I’m not opposed to those. I was speaking more to the taking away of the children/child protection agency angle that has been brought up. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Dude...I just cant.  Is there a line here?  When do you think it goes too far?  If they were walking around totally naked you could also say "what's the harm--nudity is natural"  What if they were having sex in the open?  "Well sex is natural" good god.  If you can;t see why this was bad, I don't know what to say.

On one hand, this is an incredibly stupid issue.  As recently as a couple of years ago -- maybe last year even -- "toddlers don't belong in strip clubs" would have been a totally non-ideological statement that literally everybody would have agreed with.  From Pat Buchanan to Noam Chomsky, you would have had an incredibly difficult time finding anyone who would have disputed this.  It's not at all controversial, except that woke progressives lost their minds.

On the other hand, it serves as a nice, easy screen for whose judgement is so badly broken that they can't be trusted to be in a position of authority over anything more important than a house plant, or maybe a cat.  It definitely serves that purpose.  

 

[SoBeDad]

On one hand, this is an incredibly stupid issue.  As recently as a couple of years ago -- maybe last year even -- "toddlers don't belong in strip clubs" would have been a totally non-ideological statement that literally everybody would have agreed with.  From Pat Buchanan to Noam Chomsky, you would have had an incredibly difficult time finding anyone who would have disputed this.  It's not at all controversial, except that woke progressives lost their minds.

On the other hand, it serves as a nice, easy screen for whose judgement is so badly broken that they can't be trusted to be in a position of authority over anything more important than a house plant, or maybe a cat.  It definitely serves that purpose.  

No one disagreed with "Toddlers don't belong in strip clubs."

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

I normally agree with this line of argument, but there's a point at which we rightly expect the state to step in and protect the interests of vulnerable people who can't protect themselves.  Children specifically.  

People make bad parenting decisions all the time that we just roll with.  Letting your kid watch too much tv, letting them ride their bike without a helmet, giving them ice cream that they don't really need, etc.  That stuff is all questionable, but it's not the sort of thing that we're going to police.

On the other hand, the state will intervene if you let your kids ride in a car without a seatbelt.  The state will intervene if you let your kid drink beer.  The state will step in if you let your kid smoke, or if you don't feed them, etc.  

IMO, taking your kid to a strip club (!) is more like the stuff in the third paragraph than the stuff in the second paragraph.  I don't have any special philosophical objection to the state stepping in to enforce age limits on sex work.

Although I agree with your points, I think we disagree which paragraph the specific video falls into. And therefore, that the government should investigate and punish parents for what's going on in that video. Also, you've made it pretty clear you don't seem to object with the government intervening and punishing on activities that you don't agree with, even though you claim to have certain caveats. This seems to be a bit of a blind spot.

If you're saying strip clubs should have age minimums, I mean I'm pretty sure they already do. The video I watched didn't look like it was a strip club though. Is there another video with children in strip clubs that I'm missing here? Apologies if so.

Let me be clear about what I am advocating, since the point seems to be getting missed by folks providing different examples not shown in the video:

I would never take my daughter to an event like this. Never have, never would. 

You do you though.

Now, because I would never take my daughter to an event like this, does that mean I want government investigations and punishment for those I disagree with? No. Because this is America.

That's the big difference I see nowadays that really has me worried about the direction of the country. The authoritarian nature of "I don't agree with that, therefore punishment". What the hell are we doing here folks?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

No one disagreed with "Toddlers don't belong in strip clubs."

Forget it, he's rolling

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Although I agree with your points, I think we disagree which paragraph the specific video falls into. And therefore, that the government should investigate and punish parents for what's going on in that video. Also, you've made it pretty clear you don't seem to object with the government intervening and punishing on activities that you don't agree with, even though you claim to have certain caveats. This seems to be a bit of a blind spot.

If you're saying strip clubs should have age minimums, I mean I'm pretty sure they already do. The video I watched didn't look like it was a strip club though. Is there another video with children in strip clubs that I'm missing here? Apologies if so.

Let me be clear about what I am advocating, since the point seems to be getting missed by folks providing different examples not shown in the video:

This is all fair, and just to clarify, 99% of the time I would be in favor of just leaving parents alone to raise their kids as they see fit.  I wouldn't care if somebody gave their kid a glass of wine for thanksgiving, for example.  But I would care if somebody was letting their 10 year old hit their liquor cabinet on demand.  The former is a questionable parenting choice but really no big deal either way.  The latter probably warrants some type of intervention. 

It actually takes quite a bit to make me want the state to get involved in parenting decisions, but IMO this particular issue clears that bar.  I don't have any issue with people who come to the other conclusion.  

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Forget it, he's rolling

Wait, you're the guy who's all like "But really, what's the harm in taking my toddler to a strip club?"  As if that's a serious question deserving a serious response.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

If you’re going to ban kids from drag brunches I think there should be an exception when daddy is actually in the show.

 

[timschochet]

This is all fair, and just to clarify, 99% of the time I would be in favor of just leaving parents alone to raise their kids as they see fit.  I wouldn't care if somebody gave their kid a glass of wine for thanksgiving, for example.  But I would care if somebody was letting their 10 year old hit their liquor cabinet on demand.  The former is a questionable parenting choice but really no big deal either way.  The latter probably warrants some type of intervention. 

It actually takes quite a bit to make me want the state to get involved in parenting decisions, but IMO this particular issue clears that bar.  I don't have any issue with people who come to the other conclusion.  

Your objection is to the lewd sexuality, correct? Or do you think that young children should not be exposed to drag at all? 

 

[Joe Schmo]

If you’re going to ban kids from drag brunches I think there should be an exception when daddy is actually in the show.

Good luck dragging your kid to see that!

 

[timschochet]

Because I see nothing wrong with exposing young children to drag queens or to trans people. Open, lewd sexual behavior is another thing entirely. That’s inappropriate. 
 

But many of the people complaining the loudest about this are the same ones who complained loudly about drag queens reading stories to children, which I regard as harmless. And that suggests, at least to me, that the reasons for objection goes way beyond lewd sexual behavior. 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Dude...I just cant.  Is there a line here?  When do you think it goes too far?  If they were walking around totally naked you could also say "what's the harm--nudity is natural"  What if they were having sex in the open?  "Well sex is natural" good god.  If you can;t see why this was bad, I don't know what to say.

Despite the strenuous efforts of you and @IvanKaramazov to straw-man this into "People are arguing in favor of bringing your kids to drag brunches", that's not what we're debating here. You expressed the opinion that the state should institute legal action against parents who bring their kids to these shows. So yes, there kind of needs to be a line. That's how laws work.

As a reminder, here is the relevant Florida statute:

Under Florida Statute 39.806, parental rights may be terminated due to a number of circumstances including: voluntary surrender by the parent; abandonment; conduct that threatens the life, safety, well-being, physical, mental or emotional health of the child; when a parent is incarcerated; when the state has adjudicated the child as dependent and the case plan has been violated; physical or sexual abuse; substance abuse; or a parent’s rights have been previously terminated involving another child.

If you want to argue that these parents should be investigated, you have to demonstrate that their actions "threaten the life, safety, well-being, physical, mental or emotional health of the child". All of the other examples you guys keep bringing up meet those legal criteria. I'm still waiting for someone to explain why attending a drag brunch does.

 

[BladeRunner]

No one disagreed with "Toddlers don't belong in strip clubs."

And yet, here you guys are defending that stuff. 

 

[FairWarning]

Because I see nothing wrong with exposing young children to drag queens or to trans people. Open, lewd sexual behavior is another thing entirely. That’s inappropriate. 
 

But many of the people complaining the loudest about this are the same ones who complained loudly about drag queens reading stories to children, which I regard as harmless. And that suggests, at least to me, that the reasons for objection goes way beyond lewd sexual behavior. 

What would those reasons be ?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Wait, you're the guy who's all like "But really, what's the harm in taking my toddler to a strip club?"  As if that's a serious question deserving a serious response.

Good Lord, if you didn't have straw-man arguments, you'd have no arguments at all.

 

[timschochet]

What would those reasons be ?

Opposition to transsexualism. 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

And yet, here you guys are defending that stuff. 

And here you guys are, arguing that parents have no right to raise their own kids. I can't believe you take such an extreme position! Personally, I'm in favor of parental rights, but you do you.

(Whee! Straw-man arguments are fun!)

 

[Philo Beddoe]

And yet, here you guys are defending that stuff. 

It’s clear that posting actual links to these “anecdotes” is pointless because the board left will not view them. They can’t view them because it blows up their entire argument. They are literally defending taking a child to a strip club. 

 

[bigbottom]

If you're saying strip clubs should have age minimums, I mean I'm pretty sure they already do. The video I watched didn't look like it was a strip club though. Is there another video with children in strip clubs that I'm missing here? Apologies if so.

It didn’t look like a strip club because people were having brunch. On the other hand, it looked like a strip club because there was a topless dancer performing while people stuffed dollar bills in her thong. 

 

[timschochet]

Good Lord, if you didn't have straw-man arguments, you'd have no arguments at all.

Ivan’s a smart, thinking guy and I agree with him on a lot of stuff. Even when I disagree with him, I usually find him very thoughtful and sometimes he changes my mind. 
But on this and related “woke” issues I think he’s basically fallen for the fearmongering, conspiratorial, right wing talk show narrative. 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

They are literally defending taking a child to a strip club. 

We are literally not

 

[FairWarning]

Opposition to transsexualism. 

Do we have to support all of these issues?