War in Israel (1 Viewer)

[tonysmiles]

THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF WHAT HAMAS DID (feel like that's necessary in this thread) -

But Israel has now cut off food, water, medicine, fuel, and electricity to Gaza. And, of course, killed a bunch of civilians with the bombing. It's awful. It's about to be a humanitarian crisis. Or, more accurately, an even bigger humanitarian crisis.

It's easy to say a lot of things here, but I think this makes the most sense. I'm no fan of Ron Desantis, but i live in Florida. Him doing his nonsense effects me in some ways and doesn't in others, but, other than voting or moving, I am powerless to stop whatever he or the legislature decides. Now Imagine if he went to war with Georgia and I can't leave Florida, and there is no mechanism to remove him (or in this example the Repbulican party) from power.

FWIW, the bibi thing and a good amout of Israelis feel for the Palestinians and would love some sort of peace with them. The hardliners do not, some because they don't trust them, others bc they see the threat as a way to remain in power. The Ultra-religious want the land grab, and I'm sure if they had the wherewithal, would kick anyone not "Hasidic" enough to them out of Israel entirely (Jews or non jews). Most Liberal Jews (In the US and the 45% who didn't vote for Bibi) want peace and security.

This Violence only begets more violence, and Hamas understands that the only way to radicalize people is to allow the enemy to radicalize them

DeSantis did reform Divorce and end permanent alimony and introduce a mathematical equation when calculating the alimony does not severely penalize the higher earner.

Don;t want to turn this into the politics thread. I was simply using this as an example.

I agree your post is spot on about the struggles in that region and it is difficult because Bibi does not have the confidence of his country like he did a few years ago let alone 8 years ago.

 

[beer 30]

So answer me this, in the most non-political way possible, why doesn't Egypt open up?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm sure life was tough for the citizens of Berlin in 1945, but sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done. You don't need to be needlessly cruel about it, and you also don't need to wring your hands like somebody who was born yesterday.

 

[timschochet]

The Gaza strip has been intentionally built up to this point by Iran backed groups. Seems odd that the region crying "genocide" and "apartheid" is one of the fastest growing and most densely populated regions in the world. Don't most people try to flee such places? Look at Yemen and Syria for places where life is truly difficult and there is an actual mass exodus of citizens. Yet life is good enough in Gaza that people are reproducing and not moving and have been for decades now. They know what is around them, they elected Hamas and they have had decades to choose another home, yet almost none have.

The entire goal is to create chaos in Israel, to push into Israel, to make Israel look bad on the world stage and to ultimately take over Israel and expel the Jews. That, is was and always has been the goal of Palestine.

I don’t think it’s quite that simple. This is a very complex issue with a lot of history, obviously. It’s almost impossible to reduce it to a few paragraphs. And there are tons of contradictions that exist.

For example, do you know why the people of Gaza elected Hamas? Because Hamas, in addition to being savage, murderous terrorists, also run all welfare organizations in Gaza. They quite literally feed the hungry, take care of orphans, provide charity to the sick. Unlike the Palestinian Authority (in control of the West Bank) Hamas is regarded to be incorruptible and the money given to them for charity really does reach the poor people it’s supposed to. And yet- they are certainly evil cold blooded killers. If this seems to make no sense, welcome to the murky world of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in which nothing is as it appears.

 

[Corporation]

Where do you guys go for news on this that is presented factually and as unbiased as possible?

I'm hesitant to actually reply as I'm sure there are many who disagree - but...I once applied for a government job in intelligence and they advised me to avoid US domestic news almost entirely. Their recommendation at the time were some of the European news outlets (BBC) as well as specifically the AP domestically. Major news outlets in the US have too much spin and bias. They also said it was important to read local news for key events - i.e. something like Al Jazeera for this current war - simply because understanding both sides is crucial. Not saying those local pieces aren't biased, but it's important to have multiple perspectives and make your own decisions.

you shouldn't be hesitant at all. you're spot on.

Where do you guys go for news on this that is presented factually and as unbiased as possible?

NPR, BBC, WSJ, AP, Reuters

Thanks all. I'd been going to Reuters but didn't know if people had other recs. I've done BBC as well. WSJ has a lot of paywall.

 

[Dickies]

This was an intelligence failure of epic proportions.

Agreed. I can’t comprehend that Israel was taken entirely by surprise by a coordinated attack on this scale

 

[Sand]

So answer me this, in the most non-political way possible, why doesn't Egypt open up?

Below is a good history. First 8 minutes or so. Egypt and the rest of the Arab world has washed their hands of the Palestinians.

HISTORY: Hamas Rise To Power Previews Gaza Fight| Breaking Points

Krystal and Saagar discuss the long history that led to the rise of Hamas in Gaza. To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show un...

www.youtube.com

 

[Sand]

Hamas has announced that it is going to start public executions of hostages in retaliation for bombings.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1711428619266904078

 

[Joe Bryant]

Not really sure it's possible to have this discussion without getting political

Yes, let's talk about a war but leave politics out of it.

comments like this are exactly why the forum was closed take that to the bank brohan

Thank you GB.

We know some folks are disappointed we closed the PSF and will do what they can to derail this thread.

Please don't do that. If you're mad about the PSF, take it to Twitter or somewhere else. But we'll try to have a discussion here and keep politics out of it. It's not easy but we've done it with the Ukraine thread mostly and we have good people here who'd like to try. Please take your slaps somewhere else.

 

[Dickies]

Hamas has announced that it is going to start public executions of hostages in retaliation for bombings.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1711428619266904078

Ugh. Awful

 

[Joe Bryant]

Hamas has announced that it is going to start public executions of hostages in retaliation for bombings.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1711428619266904078

Awful.

 

[beer 30]

So answer me this, in the most non-political way possible, why doesn't Egypt open up?

Below is a good history. First 8 minutes or so. Egypt and the rest of the Arab world has washed their hands of the Palestinians.

HISTORY: Hamas Rise To Power Previews Gaza Fight| Breaking Points

Krystal and Saagar discuss the long history that led to the rise of Hamas in Gaza. To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show un...

www.youtube.com

Thanks, I thought that was the case but I haven't looked at this topic in a long time.

Hamas has announced that it is going to start public executions of hostages in retaliation for bombings.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1711428619266904078

I suppose if you're rolling the dice with this incursion, might as well double down with hostage executions. I don't think it will stop the inevitable outcome because Israel is pretty pissed now. Executing hostages isn't going to make them stop their retaliation, just going to loosen the rules of engagement for Israel me thinks.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Honest question here why are we allowing IRAN to orchestrate terror every so often in the region. Lets not talk about sanctions. There is never a devastating attack on Iran by Israel or American forces based on the scale of damage there attacks create. When will Iran be justly punished.

Honestly? When oil becomes valueless.

Precisely why we need to solve these issues sooner rather than later. When oil becomes essentially worthless say 75 years from now, imagine the poverty and refugee crisis that will inevitably occur. Stabilizing the ME and Northern Africa is a must in our lifetimes.

 

[Sand]

Stabilizing the ME and Northern Africa is a must in our lifetimes.

I don't think that's possible. These societies don't want this type of stability. Therefore, it won't happen.

I do agree about making oil worthless. Billions should be poured into fusion research instead of what we do now - subsidizing Teslas and the like. This has the added advantage of taking away the income these unstable societies use to wage war.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Honest question here why are we allowing IRAN to orchestrate terror every so often in the region. Lets not talk about sanctions. There is never a devastating attack on Iran by Israel or American forces based on the scale of damage there attacks create. When will Iran be justly punished.

Honestly? When oil becomes valueless.

Precisely why we need to solve these issues sooner rather than later. When oil becomes essentially worthless say 75 years from now, imagine the poverty and refugee crisis that will inevitably occur. Stabilizing the ME and Northern Africa is a must in our lifetimes.

This isn't our problem. First of all, we have our own refugee issue to worry about. Second, this is north Africa we're talking about, not North America, so the Europeans and wealthier Arab countries can deal with this. Third, who even knows what's going to be happening with population migration three generations from now -- no point in worrying about it today.

Let's fix climate change and not start looking for excuses to slow down.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I think of the refuge solution the other way - let's move Israel to America and just tell the Middle East "So Long And Thanks For All The Fish".

I know the rebuttal is "Holy Land" but let's untie this Gordian Knot.

 

[The General]

Been on vacation so was ignoring all this. What a disaster with sickening stories everywhere. When something so extreme happens maybe some sanity can come out of this, but looking at what’s next it’s virtually impossible to see any good outcomes. Only a lot of death ahead with a new batch of terrorists being created and further entrenching of both sides.

Makes our issues look pretty trivial. Wake up everyone.

 

[timschochet]

Stabilizing the ME and Northern Africa is a must in our lifetimes.

I don't think that's possible. These societies don't want this type of stability. Therefore, it won't happen.

I do agree about making oil worthless. Billions should be poured into fusion research instead of what we do now - subsidizing Teslas and the like. This has the added advantage of taking away the income these unstable societies use to wage war.

I agree 100% and I don’t understand why we can’t get a strong consensus on this. I believe that if presented properly an investment into nuclear fusion would be supported by around 80% of the American public- liberal, conservative, doesn’t matter.

 

[Dickies]

So answer me this, in the most non-political way possible, why doesn't Egypt open up?

Below is a good history. First 8 minutes or so. Egypt and the rest of the Arab world has washed their hands of the Palestinians.

HISTORY: Hamas Rise To Power Previews Gaza Fight| Breaking Points

Krystal and Saagar discuss the long history that led to the rise of Hamas in Gaza. To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show un...

www.youtube.com

Thanks, I thought that was the case but I haven't looked at this topic in a long time.

Hamas has announced that it is going to start public executions of hostages in retaliation for bombings.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1711428619266904078

I suppose if you're rolling the dice with this incursion, might as well double down with hostage executions. I don't think it will stop the inevitable outcome because Israel is pretty pissed now. Executing hostages isn't going to make them stop their retaliation, just going to loosen the rules of engagement for Israel me thinks.

I’m not seeing how executing hostages benefits their cause in any way, but it doesn’t seem like they are rational actors.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Stabilizing the ME and Northern Africa is a must in our lifetimes.

I don't think that's possible. These societies don't want this type of stability. Therefore, it won't happen.

I do agree about making oil worthless. Billions should be poured into fusion research instead of what we do now - subsidizing Teslas and the like. This has the added advantage of taking away the income these unstable societies use to wage war.

I agree 100% and I don’t understand why we can’t get a strong consensus on this. I believe that if presented properly an investment into nuclear fusion would be supported by around 80% of the American public- liberal, conservative, doesn’t matter.

It's like a cure for cancer. "Not enough money" isn't the reason we don't have it

 

[tommyGunZ]

Honest question here why are we allowing IRAN to orchestrate terror every so often in the region. Lets not talk about sanctions. There is never a devastating attack on Iran by Israel or American forces based on the scale of damage there attacks create. When will Iran be justly punished.

Honestly? When oil becomes valueless.

Precisely why we need to solve these issues sooner rather than later. When oil becomes essentially worthless say 75 years from now, imagine the poverty and refugee crisis that will inevitably occur. Stabilizing the ME and Northern Africa is a must in our lifetimes.

This isn't our problem. First of all, we have our own refugee issue to worry about. Second, this is north Africa we're talking about, not North America, so the Europeans and wealthier Arab countries can deal with this. Third, who even knows what's going to be happening with population migration three generations from now -- no point in worrying about it today.

Let's fix climate change and not start looking for excuses to slow down.

Agree with fixing climate change; in addition to the benefits to the environment the geopolitical and long term economic advantages make it a no brainer.

Disagree with the "not our problem" take. If you think we have a refugee problem now, imagine the Middle East and North Africa in 50 years with hotter temps and no oil revenues.

 

[unckeyherb]

It seems clear to me that their goal is to provoke Israel into doing something truly shocking-shocking enough to galvanize support in the Arab world to come to the Palestinians aid against Israel. I mean, they had to know this was going to elicit a less than measured response. And their round two is to start publicly hanging Israeli civilians?

It’s like a bad guy in a hostage situation running, gun in hand, at a bunch of cops with their guns drawn. Death by cop. They have to know the level of crushing retaliation that would come their way. The only answer is that they want it.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I’m not seeing how executing hostages benefits their cause in any way, but it doesn’t seem like they are rational actors.

They want a land invasion of Gaza. I'm nowhere near familiar enough with the military situation to have much of an opinion about whether that is a wise strategy or not, but I don't think there's any other explanation for why Hamas did what it did. You don't murder families in their homes and take women and children hostage unless you're intentionally provoking the other guy into coming after you with everything he's got. That's how anybody would react under the circumstances. If they just wanted to make a point, they could have struck military targets. That's not what they did.

I've seen a lot of speculation that this is about disrupting Israeli-Saudi relations. Can't comment on that specifically, but it would make sense I suppose.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Agree with fixing climate change; in addition to the benefits to the environment the geopolitical and long term economic advantages make it a no brainer.

Disagree with the "not our problem" take. If you think we have a refugee problem now, imagine the Middle East and North Africa in 50 years with hotter temps and no oil revenues.

Still not our problem. We're not the world police, and we're also not the world's social worker. I agree with you that the situation you describe is going to come to pass and it will be bad. Europe is right there. Let them deal with it. Until north Africans find a way to walk to the United States, I'm more interested in South America.

 

[tommyGunZ]

It seems clear to me that their goal is to provoke Israel into doing something truly shocking-shocking enough to galvanize support in the Arab world to come to the Palestinians aid against Israel. I mean, they had to know this was going to elicit a less than measured response. And their round two is to start publicly hanging Israeli civilians?

It’s like a bad guy in a hostage situation running, gun in hand, at a bunch of cops with their guns drawn. Death by cop. They have to know the level of crushing retaliation that would come their way. The only answer is that they want it.

This seems like the right read to me. A targeted response along with restraint is the likely the only way out of this debacle but that isn't Netanyahu's MO.

In fairness, when hit with our 9/11, we reacted ignorantly out of rage and made policy blunders that cost us trillions of dollars and crippled American credibility for decades, so expecting Israel to respond rationally and humanely is unlikely.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I’m not seeing how executing hostages benefits their cause in any way, but it doesn’t seem like they are rational actors.

They want a land invasion of Gaza. I'm nowhere near familiar enough with the military situation to have much of an opinion about whether that is a wise strategy or not, but I don't think there's any other explanation for why Hamas did what it did. You don't murder families in their homes and take women and children hostage unless you're intentionally provoking the other guy into coming after you with everything he's got. That's how anybody would react under the circumstances. If they just wanted to make a point, they could have struck military targets. That's not what they did.

I've seen a lot of speculation that this is about disrupting Israeli-Saudi relations. Can't comment on that specifically, but it would make sense I suppose.

Agree with this take.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Still not our problem. We're not the world police, and we're also not the world's social worker. I agree with you that the situation you describe is going to come to pass and it will be bad. Europe is right there. Let them deal with it. Until north Africans find a way to walk to the United States, I'm more interested in South America.

PREACH!

 

[Navin Johnson]

Honest question here why are we allowing IRAN to orchestrate terror every so often in the region. Lets not talk about sanctions. There is never an devastating attack on Iran by Israel or American forces based on the scale of damage there attacks create. When will Iran be justly punished.

You want regime change in Iran? We did that in Iraq, and it didn't work. As soon as you set these people free, they just turn to murdering their neighbors, not organizing bake sales for their local PTA. Democracy-promotion was how we got the people of Gaza voting for freaking Hamas in the first place.

Pretty sure we've already done that

 

[tommyGunZ]

I'm one of the rare folks who miss the PSF. Despite the problems, was a great place to follow current events and read differing perspectives.

Good to see many familiar handles in this thread. I hope you and your families are well.

 

[Navin Johnson]

The Gaza strip has been intentionally built up to this point by Iran backed groups. Seems odd that the region crying "genocide" and "apartheid" is one of the fastest growing and most densely populated regions in the world. Don't most people try to flee such places? Look at Yemen and Syria for places where life is truly difficult and there is an actual mass exodus of citizens. Yet life is good enough in Gaza that people are reproducing and not moving and have been for decades now. They know what is around them, they elected Hamas and they have had decades to choose another home, yet almost none have.

The entire goal is to create chaos in Israel, to push into Israel, to make Israel look bad on the world stage and to ultimately take over Israel and expel the Jews. That, is was and always has been the goal of Palestine.

Israel already looks bad on the world stage. The only reason they have avoided harsh sanctions is the US wielding it's veto power in the UN.

 

[Boston]

It seems clear to me that their goal is to provoke Israel into doing something truly shocking-shocking enough to galvanize support in the Arab world to come to the Palestinians aid against Israel. I mean, they had to know this was going to elicit a less than measured response. And their round two is to start publicly hanging Israeli civilians?

It’s like a bad guy in a hostage situation running, gun in hand, at a bunch of cops with their guns drawn. Death by cop. They have to know the level of crushing retaliation that would come their way. The only answer is that they want it.

This seems like the right read to me. A targeted response along with restraint is the likely the only way out of this debacle but that isn't Netanyahu's MO.

In fairness, when hit with our 9/11, we reacted ignorantly out of rage and made policy blunders that cost us trillions of dollars and crippled American credibility for decades, so expecting Israel to respond rationally and humanely is unlikely.

What do you consider a rational response to someone who wants to commit genocide and just murdered, raped and dragged dead bodies thru the street?

 

[Navin Johnson]

It seems clear to me that their goal is to provoke Israel into doing something truly shocking-shocking enough to galvanize support in the Arab world to come to the Palestinians aid against Israel. I mean, they had to know this was going to elicit a less than measured response. And their round two is to start publicly hanging Israeli civilians?

It’s like a bad guy in a hostage situation running, gun in hand, at a bunch of cops with their guns drawn. Death by cop. They have to know the level of crushing retaliation that would come their way. The only answer is that they want it.

This seems like the right read to me. A targeted response along with restraint is the likely the only way out of this debacle but that isn't Netanyahu's MO.

In fairness, when hit with our 9/11, we reacted ignorantly out of rage and made policy blunders that cost us trillions of dollars and crippled American credibility for decades, so expecting Israel to respond rationally and humanely is unlikely.

What do you consider a rational response to someone who wants to commit genocide and just murdered, raped and dragged dead bodies thru the street?

What do you consider a rational response to someone who has been doing just that for decades?

 

[Dickies]

I’m not seeing how executing hostages benefits their cause in any way, but it doesn’t seem like they are rational actors.

They want a land invasion of Gaza. I'm nowhere near familiar enough with the military situation to have much of an opinion about whether that is a wise strategy or not, but I don't think there's any other explanation for why Hamas did what it did. You don't murder families in their homes and take women and children hostage unless you're intentionally provoking the other guy into coming after you with everything he's got. That's how anybody would react under the circumstances. If they just wanted to make a point, they could have struck military targets. That's not what they did.

I've seen a lot of speculation that this is about disrupting Israeli-Saudi relations. Can't comment on that specifically, but it would make sense I suppose.

I agree with this, but I don't understand why they would want it.

 

[timschochet]

Agree with fixing climate change; in addition to the benefits to the environment the geopolitical and long term economic advantages make it a no brainer.

Disagree with the "not our problem" take. If you think we have a refugee problem now, imagine the Middle East and North Africa in 50 years with hotter temps and no oil revenues.

Still not our problem. We're not the world police, and we're also not the world's social worker. I agree with you that the situation you describe is going to come to pass and it will be bad. Europe is right there. Let them deal with it. Until north Africans find a way to walk to the United States, I'm more interested in South America.

I don’t fully disagree with this. Yes we are not the world’s policeman. Our resources are limited and we need to be cautious. All that is true.

But on the other hand our way of life, our economic prosperity, is tied to the flow of world goods. There’s no way around that. We live in a global economy. We are not self sufficient and we will never be again. We depend on international trade. Any disruption to that trade, particularly energy supply, is vital to us and we have to be involved z

 

[Dezbelief]

What do you consider a rational response to someone who wants to commit genocide and just murdered, raped and dragged dead bodies thru the street?

Are you referring to Hamas or Russia?

 

[The Commish]

It seems clear to me that their goal is to provoke Israel into doing something truly shocking-shocking enough to galvanize support in the Arab world to come to the Palestinians aid against Israel. I mean, they had to know this was going to elicit a less than measured response. And their round two is to start publicly hanging Israeli civilians?

It’s like a bad guy in a hostage situation running, gun in hand, at a bunch of cops with their guns drawn. Death by cop. They have to know the level of crushing retaliation that would come their way. The only answer is that they want it.

This seems like the right read to me. A targeted response along with restraint is the likely the only way out of this debacle but that isn't Netanyahu's MO.

In fairness, when hit with our 9/11, we reacted ignorantly out of rage and made policy blunders that cost us trillions of dollars and crippled American credibility for decades, so expecting Israel to respond rationally and humanely is unlikely.

What do you consider a rational response to someone who wants to commit genocide and just murdered, raped and dragged dead bodies thru the street?

There isn't a rational response to completely irrational and out-of-touch people. Can't be done. You can only hope to contain them which has needed to be our policy in the middle east for as long as I've been alive. The US can't "fix" that area and needs to stop trying.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Apologies if honda. I'm not knowledgeable about this situation.

Is there a good and concise link to an article summarizing what the main points of conflict are? I know it's long running and complex. But trying to get a basic understanding.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Egypt doesn't want Palestinians because Hamas is backed by Iran -- and both are Shia Muslim. Egypt (and Saudi Arabia) are both Sunni and have their own problems with both terrorists and Iran already.

I'm sure there's more to it than that, but that's a piece of it anyhow.

 

[The Commish]

I’m not seeing how executing hostages benefits their cause in any way, but it doesn’t seem like they are rational actors.

They want a land invasion of Gaza. I'm nowhere near familiar enough with the military situation to have much of an opinion about whether that is a wise strategy or not, but I don't think there's any other explanation for why Hamas did what it did. You don't murder families in their homes and take women and children hostage unless you're intentionally provoking the other guy into coming after you with everything he's got. That's how anybody would react under the circumstances. If they just wanted to make a point, they could have struck military targets. That's not what they did.

I've seen a lot of speculation that this is about disrupting Israeli-Saudi relations. Can't comment on that specifically, but it would make sense I suppose.

I agree with this, but I don't understand why they would want it.

They are convinced they are doing the honorable and noble thing and God is on their side and that they will be greatly rewarded in the afterlife.

 

[The Commish]

Apologies if honda. I'm not knowledgeable about this situation.

Is there a good and concise link to an article summarizing what the main points of conflict are? I know it's long running and complex. But trying to get a basic understanding.

Palestine has land Israel believes is theirs.

 

[belljr]

Apologies if honda. I'm not knowledgeable about this situation.

Is there a good and concise link to an article summarizing what the main points of conflict are? I know it's long running and complex. But trying to get a basic understanding.

Palestine has land Israel believes is theirs.

And vice versa.....

 

[General Malaise]

Apologies if honda. I'm not knowledgeable about this situation.

Is there a good and concise link to an article summarizing what the main points of conflict are? I know it's long running and complex. But trying to get a basic understanding.

Palestine has land Israel believes is theirs.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the land that is now Israel the home of the Palestinains before it was taken from them? Been a minute since I studied this but both sides strongly believe the land is theirs.

 

[General Malaise]

Apologies if honda. I'm not knowledgeable about this situation.

Is there a good and concise link to an article summarizing what the main points of conflict are? I know it's long running and complex. But trying to get a basic understanding.

Palestine has land Israel believes is theirs.

And vice versa.....

More succinctly stated....

 

[Navin Johnson]

Apologies if honda. I'm not knowledgeable about this situation.

Is there a good and concise link to an article summarizing what the main points of conflict are? I know it's long running and complex. But trying to get a basic understanding.

Palestine has land Israel believes is theirs.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the land that is now Israel the home of the Palestinains before it was taken from them? Been a minute since I studied this but both sides strongly believe the land is theirs.

yes

 

[unckeyherb]

I’m not seeing how executing hostages benefits their cause in any way, but it doesn’t seem like they are rational actors.

They want a land invasion of Gaza. I'm nowhere near familiar enough with the military situation to have much of an opinion about whether that is a wise strategy or not, but I don't think there's any other explanation for why Hamas did what it did. You don't murder families in their homes and take women and children hostage unless you're intentionally provoking the other guy into coming after you with everything he's got. That's how anybody would react under the circumstances. If they just wanted to make a point, they could have struck military targets. That's not what they did.

I've seen a lot of speculation that this is about disrupting Israeli-Saudi relations. Can't comment on that specifically, but it would make sense I suppose.

I agree with this, but I don't understand why they would want it.

Again, just my opinion, but they want to unify the Arab world against Israel. There is a point in this skirmish that Sunni, Shi'ite et al Arabs see Israel carpet bombing Palestinian Arabs and they move against Israel once and for all. At least, that is what Hamas is hoping happens.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Apologies if honda. I'm not knowledgeable about this situation.

Is there a good and concise link to an article summarizing what the main points of conflict are? I know it's long running and complex. But trying to get a basic understanding.

Palestine has land Israel believes is theirs.

Thanks. Is there a summary-type article you can link to that is a good summary with more information?

 

[unckeyherb]

Agree with fixing climate change; in addition to the benefits to the environment the geopolitical and long term economic advantages make it a no brainer.

Disagree with the "not our problem" take. If you think we have a refugee problem now, imagine the Middle East and North Africa in 50 years with hotter temps and no oil revenues.

Still not our problem. We're not the world police, and we're also not the world's social worker. I agree with you that the situation you describe is going to come to pass and it will be bad. Europe is right there. Let them deal with it. Until north Africans find a way to walk to the United States, I'm more interested in South America.

I don’t fully disagree with this. Yes we are not the world’s policeman. Our resources are limited and we need to be cautious. All that is true.

But on the other hand our way of life, our economic prosperity, is tied to the flow of world goods. There’s no way around that. We live in a global economy. We are not self sufficient and we will never be again. We depend on international trade. Any disruption to that trade, particularly energy supply, is vital to us and we have to be involved z

Hey Tim, long time no talk. You should read Peter Zeihan's book "The End of The World is Just The Beginning". He makes a compelling case that this is simply not the case and that it is coming sooner rather than later.

 

[dickey moe]

It seems clear to me that their goal is to provoke Israel into doing something truly shocking-shocking enough to galvanize support in the Arab world to come to the Palestinians aid against Israel. I mean, they had to know this was going to elicit a less than measured response. And their round two is to start publicly hanging Israeli civilians?

It’s like a bad guy in a hostage situation running, gun in hand, at a bunch of cops with their guns drawn. Death by cop. They have to know the level of crushing retaliation that would come their way. The only answer is that they want it.

This seems like the right read to me. A targeted response along with restraint is the likely the only way out of this debacle but that isn't Netanyahu's MO.

In fairness, when hit with our 9/11, we reacted ignorantly out of rage and made policy blunders that cost us trillions of dollars and crippled American credibility for decades, so expecting Israel to respond rationally and humanely is unlikely.

For heaven's sake please don't get this discussion shut down.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Apologies if honda. I'm not knowledgeable about this situation.

Is there a good and concise link to an article summarizing what the main points of conflict are? I know it's long running and complex. But trying to get a basic understanding.

Palestine has land Israel believes is theirs.

Thanks. Is there a summary-type article you can link to that is a good summary with more information?

From the son of a general in the IDF

The truth about Palestine and Israel's Occupation "The General's Son" - Miko Peled

Miko Peled's appearance in Seattle in October 2012, where he dispels absolutely the myths surrounding Palestine, it's ethnic cleansing, and occupation by Isr...

youtu.be

 

[unckeyherb]

It seems clear to me that their goal is to provoke Israel into doing something truly shocking-shocking enough to galvanize support in the Arab world to come to the Palestinians aid against Israel. I mean, they had to know this was going to elicit a less than measured response. And their round two is to start publicly hanging Israeli civilians?

It’s like a bad guy in a hostage situation running, gun in hand, at a bunch of cops with their guns drawn. Death by cop. They have to know the level of crushing retaliation that would come their way. The only answer is that they want it.

This seems like the right read to me. A targeted response along with restraint is the likely the only way out of this debacle but that isn't Netanyahu's MO.

In fairness, when hit with our 9/11, we reacted ignorantly out of rage and made policy blunders that cost us trillions of dollars and crippled American credibility for decades, so expecting Israel to respond rationally and humanely is unlikely.

The problem is that 9/11 wasn't a state sanctioned attack. Al Qaida wasn't acting on behalf of a specific government. Imagine if right away we knew that the Peruvian government was responsible for 9/11. Do you think Peru would still be a thing? Of course not. We had no clear targets at the beginning and when we did, we didn't do great with hitting them.

ETA: my point was just that in the heat of the moment, when the country was coalescing around NYC and the Bush admin, if we knew Peru was to blame I don't think there is much we as a nation would have been opposed to doing to them.