Like I said, related to the holidays - suck it up really isn't an option mostly due to the inherent awkwardness and nails on a chalkboard for my wife, as well as the small crowd. We came up with alternatives where everyone gets time but some of that time doesnt include the ex. This doesn't feel great for everyone, but the divorce didn't feel great for everyone either and we've all accepted that.
Did you ever truly apologize for this? Because you absolutely have no right to make other people's reasonable health choices for them. I have no idea why you think it's "ridiclous" for people to want distance from others during a pandemic. Picking on others for wanting to wear a mask or maintain a distance is just wrong on so many levels.Covid hits, we are fine 2019 and 2020. However, once vaccinated in 2021 we want to get back together with everyone and start having normal family dinners, etc. He and his wife balk because of the baby (who is 1.5 at this point and unvaccinated). This also causes my parents to balk and they want to continue 6ft and zoom "get-togethers" which my wife and I deem ridiculous at that point.
Right. Having a family member that one probably wouldn't otherwise ever socialize with is commonplace. I mentioned my sister-in-law above and I will reiterate that she is very challenging at times. And, at points, she has caused some issues between my wife and me (primarily because my wife is comfortable letting SIL be in complete control where I don't handle being directed without it bothering me) as well as put my wife and I in a position where we have seriously considered not attending certain events that are important to her family.You might be more like a "normal" family than you know. Holidays can be tough on families. My SIL blows up with drama every year between now and Xmas. She is the poster child for "pay me but I don't want to work".
Not too mention this is right after the Delta surge and an unvaccinated one year old.Did you ever truly apologize for this? Because you absolutely have no right to make other people's reasonable health choices for them. I have no idea why you think it's "ridiclous" for people to want distance from others during a pandemic. Picking on others for wanting to wear a mask or maintain a distance is just wrong on so many levels.Covid hits, we are fine 2019 and 2020. However, once vaccinated in 2021 we want to get back together with everyone and start having normal family dinners, etc. He and his wife balk because of the baby (who is 1.5 at this point and unvaccinated). This also causes my parents to balk and they want to continue 6ft and zoom "get-togethers" which my wife and I deem ridiculous at that point.
Man up and apologize if you have not already done so.
Or, just simply agree to disagree and move on.Did you ever truly apologize for this? Because you absolutely have no right to make other people's reasonable health choices for them. I have no idea why you think it's "ridiclous" for people to want distance from others during a pandemic. Picking on others for wanting to wear a mask or maintain a distance is just wrong on so many levels.Covid hits, we are fine 2019 and 2020. However, once vaccinated in 2021 we want to get back together with everyone and start having normal family dinners, etc. He and his wife balk because of the baby (who is 1.5 at this point and unvaccinated). This also causes my parents to balk and they want to continue 6ft and zoom "get-togethers" which my wife and I deem ridiculous at that point.
Man up and apologize if you have not already done so.
While a Festivus celebration is always brilliant, I assume such airing occurred in the dissolution pleadings.Have you tried to have an airing of grievances yet?
This is true wisdom, Grasshopper.Or, just simply agree to disagree and move on.Did you ever truly apologize for this? Because you absolutely have no right to make other people's reasonable health choices for them. I have no idea why you think it's "ridiclous" for people to want distance from others during a pandemic. Picking on others for wanting to wear a mask or maintain a distance is just wrong on so many levels.Covid hits, we are fine 2019 and 2020. However, once vaccinated in 2021 we want to get back together with everyone and start having normal family dinners, etc. He and his wife balk because of the baby (who is 1.5 at this point and unvaccinated). This also causes my parents to balk and they want to continue 6ft and zoom "get-togethers" which my wife and I deem ridiculous at that point.
Man up and apologize if you have not already done so.
Speaking from firsthand experience, we have some family members who always did Thanksgiving and Christmas with us. When Covid hit, we (the collective family) asked that attendees Christmas dinner to either be vaccinated or, at the very least, test beforehand to ensure everybody is negative at the get together. These particular family members responded by saying it's a hoax and they won't do that. We all then just mutually agreed that they wouldn't join. Nobody got all mad and apologies were never necessary or expected. A few years later when Covid died down they resumed coming and it hasn't been an issue since.
But, if I apply yours and your wife's logic, these family members should be apologizing to us for some irrational reason.
I remember having a masked gathering with my grandma and aunt that Christmas. It was great to see them as it had been since pre-pandemic. They both tested positive for Covid the next day; so, we were glad had the masks on, and, as a result, they did not spread to us or my unvaccinated kid. Able to meet up safely and glad no one said to stay away if wanted masks or social distance.Not too mention this is right after the Delta surge and an unvaccinated one year old.Did you ever truly apologize for this? Because you absolutely have no right to make other people's reasonable health choices for them. I have no idea why you think it's "ridiclous" for people to want distance from others during a pandemic. Picking on others for wanting to wear a mask or maintain a distance is just wrong on so many levels.Covid hits, we are fine 2019 and 2020. However, once vaccinated in 2021 we want to get back together with everyone and start having normal family dinners, etc. He and his wife balk because of the baby (who is 1.5 at this point and unvaccinated). This also causes my parents to balk and they want to continue 6ft and zoom "get-togethers" which my wife and I deem ridiculous at that point.
Man up and apologize if you have not already done so.
Not when there's a child involved.Also, what the hell is this crap about spending holidays with your ex - I thought the whole point of getting divorced was not to have to spend time with them?
In my experience it takes two very exceptional people to be able to do joint holidays after a divorce and such is not the norm. And that's okay, even if a child is involved.Not when there's a child involved.Also, what the hell is this crap about spending holidays with your ex - I thought the whole point of getting divorced was not to have to spend time with them?
As a child of divorce, I actually enjoyed a couple days a year spent as a “family”, even if it was forced, and fleeting.Also, what the hell is this crap about spending holidays with your ex - I thought the whole point of getting divorced was not to have to spend time with them?
As a child of divorce, I actually enjoyed a couple days a year spent as a “family”, even if it was forced, and fleeting.Also, what the hell is this crap about spending holidays with your ex - I thought the whole point of getting divorced was not to have to spend time with them?
Not when there's a child involved.Also, what the hell is this crap about spending holidays with your ex - I thought the whole point of getting divorced was not to have to spend time with them?
Not when there's a child involved.Also, what the hell is this crap about spending holidays with your ex - I thought the whole point of getting divorced was not to have to spend time with them?
I could spend time with my kid without having to spend time with my ex. I’ll never have to deal with it as I never plan to get divorced and my kids are essentially all grown. But anything that would make me or my wife feel like we needed to divorce the other would be bad enough where we’d probably not be interested in spending holidays together.
Not when there's a child involved.Also, what the hell is this crap about spending holidays with your ex - I thought the whole point of getting divorced was not to have to spend time with them?
I could spend time with my kid without having to spend time with my ex. I’ll never have to deal with it as I never plan to get divorced and my kids are essentially all grown. But anything that would make me or my wife feel like we needed to divorce the other would be bad enough where we’d probably not be interested in spending holidays together.
It’s not that the divorced parents want to spend time with each other. It’s that they each want to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas with their child.
No doubt that the leaving of messenger was the pivotal point that started all this. There was alot of buildup to it though.After reading the above sounds like your wife kinda started the whole thing.
Most people going through a divorce are going through the worst point in their lives. For a decent length of time, and certainly during the divorce process itself, the divorce is constantly weighing on them and beating them down emotionally. So, naturally, there's not a ton of rational decision-making or even a whole lot of listening to one's lawyer and the result is a term that seems to the parties like a good way to maintain the family unit for the child only for them to realize later it's not.Not when there's a child involved.Also, what the hell is this crap about spending holidays with your ex - I thought the whole point of getting divorced was not to have to spend time with them?
I could spend time with my kid without having to spend time with my ex. I’ll never have to deal with it as I never plan to get divorced and my kids are essentially all grown. But anything that would make me or my wife feel like we needed to divorce the other would be bad enough where we’d probably not be interested in spending holidays together.
It’s not that the divorced parents want to spend time with each other. It’s that they each want to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas with their child.
Sure - and my original post was a little tongue in cheek but as someone who spent Christmas and Thanksgiving at different parents houses it was much better, IMO, than them pretending. We joke kids are dumb but they aren’t. Ultimately, it’s a very individual choice and situation specific so I don’t think there’s a right or wrong decision to make. I just find it weird people would put that in a divorce agreement.
This is all so petty and childish. Sorry man, you asked for input. This sounds like my 17 year old daughter and her overly dramatic friends. the woman is a selfish ingrate that is unpleasant. There are zillions of those in the world. Can you not put your righteousness aside for 3 days a year and be as nice as possible? Even if she’s not? Your elderly parents, the kid and your brother deserve it.No doubt that the leaving of messenger was the pivotal point that started all this. There was alot of buildup to it though.After reading the above sounds like your wife kinda started the whole thing.
Ex Wife would gaslight current wife throughout any get together. Subtle, but there, to an extent we were often left with "did she really say that"
Ex wife would show up 30-45 min late to gatherings at her own house because she was still getting ready. When the whole gathering is slated for 2 hours thats a bit off. We blew that off too.
My wife put about 6 weeks of effort into making a 1st year baby book for brother and his wife. Not so much as a thank you or any follow up comment on the book.
Wife would put together gifts (birthday, etc) but her birthday was delayed or forgotten. Ex wife never bought my wife one single gift.
All of these are in and of themselves not that big of a deal but it starts to paint a picture when you put it all together. That led to my wife saying ok something has to change or this isn't going to end well, and the call for change wasn't well communicated or received and definitely didn't end well.
Its worth noting that the rest of my family was annoyed at wife leaving messenger chat as well, but that was all reconciled and we get together with everyone except the ex wife now no problem.
Long time member, very rare poster, but I read what people write and generally respect the anonymous collective wisdom of the FFA, and would like your thoughts. I'll try to keep it succinct.
My Brother is five years younger than me (mid-40s). We had a good but distant relationship just due to life circumstances. (hadn't lived in the same state from 1993 to 2019). He is married and moved to our area fall of 2019 since his wife is pregnant to be close to family. We get along well and he is a quirky but great guy.
Covid hits, we are fine 2019 and 2020. However, once vaccinated in 2021 we want to get back together with everyone and start having normal family dinners, etc. He and his wife balk because of the baby (who is 1.5 at this point and unvaccinated). This also causes my parents to balk and they want to continue 6ft and zoom "get-togethers" which my wife and I deem ridiculous at that point.
This led to some harsh words between my wife and his wife. There was a leaving of a Facebook group text, a bad 5-minute phone call, and then around 4 bad texts back and forth, then silence for a year.
Last Thanksgiving we attempted to reconcile and get everyone together, at which point my brother announced his separation and pending divorce. We think "Okay, sad about divorce but one less problem".
Divorce is finalized in the spring of this year. They sell the house, now live in 2 separate houses a few blocks from each other, and share custody of 3 year old. This is also fine.
The problem is now his ex-wife wants to be involved in all of our family events. All birthdays, etc. Her vision (and he says his vision too) is that we are all just one big happy family regardless. Meanwhile, after some advice and a fair amount of research, my wife and I are convinced she has narcissistic personality disorder. She refuses to apologize for any past actions or words and just wants to blow things under the rug and pretend everything is fine. My brother's divorce agreement states that he is obligated to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas together with her and their daughter, so now the family is split on those holidays because my now elderly parents have to decide between my family and his as we refuse to get together with ex-wife without a clearing of the air and sincere apologies all around. Even still I feel weird about it because she is now his ex and I feel like she has exited the family so she's responsible for herself.
I feel pressure because this is the first real interpersonal conflict in my small family pretty much ever (my wife and I have been married 21 years) and my parents are sad about it.
So bottom line - are we the "a-holes"? Any sanity check would be appreciated.
This is… this is perfect. /threadi think the ex wife sounds like a long bad road of uncool but who cares just do the gathering and sit on the other side of the room and be awesome and let her eat cake take that to the bank brohan
Some suggestions I have really seemed to work for us and, quite honestly, put me in a situation where my SIL's relationship with me is about as good as it's ever been:
1. Stay away from alcohol when around the family member - why should be obvious.
Sometimes the very definition of maturity is apologizing for something that is not your fault.My take would be do what you think is best without expectations of anyone else.
It's just easier that way. And better I think.
She's your niece's mother. And always will be. That's still family.
Family is precious and changes too quickly on it's own with folks passing and such.
My advice would be to be gracious and accommodating as best you can. I'd apologize and do the best I could to clear the air on my side with more of a "this is in the past. I'm sorry it went down this way but I can only affect the future and do the best you can there. With zero expectation or even a hint that you expect the same from her.
These things often work themselves out on their own for the best.
Sometimes the very definition of maturity is apologizing for something that is not your fault.
Thanks for the thoughtful feedback.Thinking a bit more.
It doesn't take mutual consent to "clear the air".
You can clear your side of the air, be gracious and move on.
It's also important to define "clear the air". In most cases it's not reach some hard fought negotiation.
It's often just a simply apology or acknowledgement and owning part or all of the past, then expressing an intent to move forward in a positive way.
My wife can be difficult in that she is incapable of ignoring an issue, or even just shelving it. She hits it head on, works through it and then moves on. That works as long as the other person is also willing to hit it head on and has a mutual interest in resolving it. For us that has resulted in 21 years of marriage and counting. Its a core value for her and its been this way forever. She wears her heart on her sleeve and calls a spade a spade. In many ways she is kind of like a dude in this regard. "Pretending" is not on the table for her. This isn't always the easiest approach thats for sure.As does the OP‘s current wife…” sounds like a long road of uncool”. I think the OP is trying to protect his wife because she is equally unstable.i think the ex wife sounds like a long bad road of uncool but who cares just do the gathering and sit on the other side of the room and be awesome and let her eat cake take that to the bank brohan
ETA…it’s so sad to see this impact the kiddo and the grandparents
She's not going to do it. And, at this point, now your wife is being equally stubborn and incapable as literally all it would take is her just relaxing a little bit and putting up with the SIL for a portion of a day.Thanks for the thoughtful feedback.Thinking a bit more.
It doesn't take mutual consent to "clear the air".
You can clear your side of the air, be gracious and move on.
It's also important to define "clear the air". In most cases it's not reach some hard fought negotiation.
It's often just a simply apology or acknowledgement and owning part or all of the past, then expressing an intent to move forward in a positive way.
The last line is most poignant and we are more than willing to do that. My wife is locked in that she wants the same in return. Its a little different with her in that given her childhood past (rough home life including physical abuse) she is literally incapable of pretending that everything is fine or even a fake it till you make it approach.
So the tear is at what point do you do what is best vs. what is easiest? I'm getting the responses I mostly expected from a largely gen x male board and to be honest if it were just me feel mostly the same way. However, I also have my own home to consider and balance out responsibilities for both.
My frustration with my ex SIL is she is incapable of the last sentence and refuses to do it. That's all it would take (or would have taken, maybe not at this point).
Its also hard to describe but my ex SIL does about 50% of the time have a very negative energy (had to describe but you can feel it come off her), so you kind of don't know what you are gonna get.
We were ready to forge ahead at all costs until the divorce, at which point we let go. ex SIL has moved on and is dating, and apparently has a significant other important enough to mention to my mom, and brother hasn't even considered it yet. He seems to be hanging on.
I take it as it just means that the SIL says annoying and pompous stuff as the OP has already stated. People use "gaslight" all the time now and it just seems to mean now that it's anything that anybody else says that they don't like and by calling it "gaslighting" is justifies their irrational emotional response to it.As an aside, I’m curious what you mean when you say your brother’s ex “gaslights” your wife. Do you have specific examples. “Gaslighting” is obviously a prevalent concept in modern society but a word that would never be found in my regular vocabulary (same with “triggering”). I’m curious to hear specifics.
"let's not get together until you guys feel a little safer because this is triggering for me"
are you kidding me? Cause that would piss me off too.
These are two new terms that entered my vernacular the last couple years too, as it has I think for most of American society.I take it as it just means that the SIL says annoying and pompous stuff as the OP has already stated. People use "gaslight" all the time now and it just seems to mean now that it's anything that anybody else says that they don't like and by calling it "gaslighting" is justifies their irrational emotional response to it.As an aside, I’m curious what you mean when you say your brother’s ex “gaslights” your wife. Do you have specific examples. “Gaslighting” is obviously a prevalent concept in modern society but a word that would never be found in my regular vocabulary (same with “triggering”). I’m curious to hear specifics.
After reading everything, it sounds like your wife is the only one preventing the entire family get-togethers. In the end, she will have to decide if her inability to let bygones be bygones are going to prevent your family from being at these events.My wife can be difficult in that she is incapable of ignoring an issue, or even just shelving it. She hits it head on, works through it and then moves on. That works as long as the other person is also willing to hit it head on and has a mutual interest in resolving it. For us that has resulted in 21 years of marriage and counting. Its a core value for her and its been this way forever. She wears her heart on her sleeve and calls a spade a spade. In many ways she is kind of like a dude in this regard. "Pretending" is not on the table for her. This isn't always the easiest approach thats for sure.As does the OP‘s current wife…” sounds like a long road of uncool”. I think the OP is trying to protect his wife because she is equally unstable.i think the ex wife sounds like a long bad road of uncool but who cares just do the gathering and sit on the other side of the room and be awesome and let her eat cake take that to the bank brohan
ETA…it’s so sad to see this impact the kiddo and the grandparents
My natural inclination is to let things marinate and see if time heals wounds. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the incremental hurts build up until they boil over and that's why many folks get divorced.
The kiddo thus far is unaffected. She's 3, and we see her reasonably often and its a nice time. The grandparents are also unaffected outside of their stress for my brother and their inherent need for Norman Rockwell holidays. They are taking the high road all around to the best of their ability. We see them often, usually once per week.
*edited to add, and probably worth noting, no previous issues and family was peas and carrots prior to 2021.
I see this and agree to an extent. I give a little more grace to my wife who realizes she Fed up and is more than willing to accept her share of the blame, she just doesn't want to be the martyr. For that I have a hard time blaming her."I refuse to apologize" and "I refuse to be around her until she apologizes" are two sides of the same coin. And when it comes to that intractable coin, it's a no brainer - you should side with your wife. Sucks for your family, and especially your parents who I'm sure would love to spend time with all the grandkiddos on those special days, but it is what it is. Hopefully you only have to deal with it another year or two.
Nada, my wife and I have zero issues outside of this particular one, which is externally driven and likely temporary.Have you considered divorce?No doubt that the leaving of messenger was the pivotal point that started all this. There was alot of buildup to it though.After reading the above sounds like your wife kinda started the whole thing.
Ex Wife would gaslight current wife throughout any get together. Subtle, but there, to an extent we were often left with "did she really say that"
Ex wife would show up 30-45 min late to gatherings at her own house because she was still getting ready. When the whole gathering is slated for 2 hours thats a bit off. We blew that off too.
My wife put about 6 weeks of effort into making a 1st year baby book for brother and his wife. Not so much as a thank you or any follow up comment on the book.
Wife would put together gifts (birthday, etc) but her birthday was delayed or forgotten. Ex wife never bought my wife one single gift.
All of these are in and of themselves not that big of a deal but it starts to paint a picture when you put it all together. That led to my wife saying ok something has to change or this isn't going to end well, and the call for change wasn't well communicated or received and definitely didn't end well.
Its worth noting that the rest of my family was annoyed at wife leaving messenger chat as well, but that was all reconciled and we get together with everyone except the ex wife now no problem.
That was just a joke, but your wife is the root cause of the problem hereNada, my wife and I have zero issues outside of this particular one, which is externally driven and likely temporary.Have you considered divorce?No doubt that the leaving of messenger was the pivotal point that started all this. There was alot of buildup to it though.After reading the above sounds like your wife kinda started the whole thing.
Ex Wife would gaslight current wife throughout any get together. Subtle, but there, to an extent we were often left with "did she really say that"
Ex wife would show up 30-45 min late to gatherings at her own house because she was still getting ready. When the whole gathering is slated for 2 hours thats a bit off. We blew that off too.
My wife put about 6 weeks of effort into making a 1st year baby book for brother and his wife. Not so much as a thank you or any follow up comment on the book.
Wife would put together gifts (birthday, etc) but her birthday was delayed or forgotten. Ex wife never bought my wife one single gift.
All of these are in and of themselves not that big of a deal but it starts to paint a picture when you put it all together. That led to my wife saying ok something has to change or this isn't going to end well, and the call for change wasn't well communicated or received and definitely didn't end well.
Its worth noting that the rest of my family was annoyed at wife leaving messenger chat as well, but that was all reconciled and we get together with everyone except the ex wife now no problem.