​ 🏛️ ​Official Supreme Court nomination thread - Amy Coney Barrett (5 Viewers)

[TobiasFunke]

Puerto Rico will never be a state. It’s made up almost entirely of poor, non-Caucasians who don’t speak English.

This will not be the reason offered publicly for not making it a state (except maybe by Trump) but it is the main reason it won’t happen. 

The assumption here is that the Dems re-take the White House and both sides of Congress in 2020 or 2024, giving them a rare and likely brief chance to push back against the forces pushing us towards minority rule.

If they do, why wouldn't they want a state made of poor non-Caucasians who don't speak English as part of that push?

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Puerto Rico will never be a state. It’s made up almost entirely of poor, non-Caucasians who don’t speak English.

This will not be the reason offered publicly for not making it a state (except maybe by Trump) but it is the main reason it won’t happen. 

My experience in Puerto Rico is that most everyone does speak English in addition to Spanish.  Perhaps my experience is limited, in fact almost certainly it is.

 

[timschochet]

The assumption here is that the Dems re-take the White House and both sides of Congress in 2020 or 2024, giving them a rare and likely brief chance to push back against the forces pushing us towards minority rule.

If they do, why wouldn't they want a state made of poor non-Caucasians who don't speak English as part of that push?

Honestly? For the same reason they didn’t pass amnesty when they had the chance. Because they’re scared white voters will abandon them. 

I know I sound cynical, but about this I am. When it comes to any decision that might benefit non-whites, the Democratic Party is always very reluctant to take action, no matter what their rhetoric says. 

 

[The Commish]

Isn't the biggest reason for pushing for statehood is to open up more efficient ways of dealing with their crippling debt?  Congress could do something about that, short of statehood, but Congress can't seemed to be bothered to provide the same effective rights as states.

They aren't afforded the same bankruptcy benefits as states are.  There's also a bit of a split on the island.  There are some that want no part of being a state in this country.  The individuals there are relatively conservative in the traditional non-Trump sense of the term.  In talking with several folks who moved here last year because of the hurricane it's a lot more complicated than I realized.

 

[timschochet]

My experience in Puerto Rico is that most everyone does speak English in addition to Spanish.  Perhaps my experience is limited, in fact almost certainly it is.

That was mine too in fact, though I was limited to San Juan. 

Still this is about perception...

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I honestly don't know why geographic size would matter.  As you said the population is greater than Wyoming (and Vermont, according to Wikipedia), and that's all that matters.

As for the Constitutional issue and to some degree the other ones- most of the proposals for DC statehood would work around that by carving out a small portion of the city that contains very few homes and apartments. You could put the White House, Congress (both the Capitol and the office buildings) the Supreme Court and other federal courts, the Library of Congress along with several agencies including State and DOJ and many of the monuments within a new District fairly easily.  And as you seem to acknowledge, many of the reasons for the contemplated separation are gone. And given the scale of the government that kind of delineation is now impossible anyway- the majority of federal workers in DC live in MD or VA, and some key agencies are already outside the city including DoD obviously.

I don't know why size should matter other than my preconceptions of what constitutes a state, and that is, of course, no reason at all.  Still, there it is. Hell, I have a tough time thinking of Rhode Island  or Delaware as real states, and actually I think one of them has some other designation in their official name, though it alludes me right now.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Honestly? For the same reason they didn’t pass amnesty when they had the chance. Because they’re scared white voters will abandon them. 

I know I sound cynical, but about this I am. When it comes to any decision that might benefit non-whites, the Democratic Party is always very reluctant to take action, no matter what their rhetoric says. 

I don't buy it. I see this more as a DREAMer type thing, which the Dems obviously would have pushed through if they'd had an opening and which Obama adopted through EO anyway. Something that's clearly popular within the party, gets little if any resistance from moderates, and is clearly the right thing to do.

 

[timschochet]

I don't buy it. I see this more as a DREAMer type thing, which the Dems obviously would have pushed through if they'd had an opening and which Obama adopted through EO anyway. Something that's clearly popular within the party, gets little if any resistance from moderates, and is clearly the right thing to do.

The Dems did have an opening to push the Dream Act through in 2009. They chose not to. 

What is more profitable for Democrats? Passing a Dream Act? Or criticizing Republicans for not passing a Dream Act? 

 

[Sinn Fein]

I don't know why size should matter other than my preconceptions of what constitutes a state, and that is, of course, no reason at all.  Still, there it is. Hell, I have a tough time thinking of Rhode Island  or Delaware as real states, and actually I think one of them has some other designation in their official name, though it alludes me right now.

Kentucky, Virginia, Massachusetts and Pennsylvania are Commonwealths, not states.  I am not sure of any other designations. 

 

[Henry Ford]

My understanding, and it may be wrong, is that until very recently Puerto Ricans were enjoying the benefits of being a territory but not a State. They were not required to pay Federal income Tax, and some of their GDP comes from having corporations there who enjoy the territorial status. Going back to the Treaty of Paris the idea of Statehood has been discussed, and generally rejected by narrow majorities. Only recently, the last dozen years or so has that changed, and only narrowly so, with a movement of abstainers from referendum always growing and skewing the vote, though that is their right and risk at the same time.  I figure this is on the Puerto Ricans.  If they want statehood they should clearly state as much.  I do not oppose it In  any way, I just thought it was more or less an open question.

I always thought that part of the opposition to statehood is their enjoyment of their formerly independent status, and for some, even, their association with Spain, if by force.  (Of course their being ceded to us was also by force)  they have a unique culture and some fear losing that to gain the representation of being a State.  They may figure that as a territory they already enjoy some of the benefits of statehood, or enough of the benefits, in that we provide for them a "common defense", no small matter.  Still, as I say, I would provide them all of the rights of statehood if that is their wish.

As for D.C. it would be a comically small state geographically if not by population as I believe it has now passed Wyoming (Pity poor Wyoming).  They have most of the benefits of statehood after the 23rd amendment was it.  Also I believe it would take a Constitutional Amendment to accomplish this for them.  Finally, I sort or bought the argument in Federalist 43 or maybe it was 46 as to the essential reasons the seat of government should not be beholding to any one state.  Now many of those arguments were much stronger in an agrarian, pre-industrial, pre-mass communication world, but I think they sort of still apply. 

This is actually something that feeds corruption in Puerto Rican government more than it benefits the citizens.  In fact, more Puerto Ricans pay Commonwealth Taxes than would pay Federal Taxes if they were a state because of the P.R. taxation system - basically the poor are getting robbed so that internal commonwealth pork spending and government skimming can take place.

Also, anyone who works for the government has to pay federal taxes.  Which is about 20% of the country.

 

[thayman]

Puerto Rico will never be a state. It’s made up almost entirely of poor, non-Caucasians who don’t speak English.

This will not be the reason offered publicly for not making it a state (except maybe by Trump) but it is the main reason it won’t happen. 

Just FYI over 90% of the population speaks English.

 

[TobiasFunke]

The Dems did have an opening to push the Dream Act through in 2009. They chose not to. 

What is more profitable for Democrats? Passing a Dream Act? Or criticizing Republicans for not passing a Dream Act? 

They had a very narrow opening (I think it was like September 2009-February 2010 or something), and they stupidly spent that time focused on finding some sort of bipartisan way forward on health care and to a lesser extent other issues. It was a naive mistake borne of misplaced good faith in the GOP, and we can probably rest assured that they won't be making it again.  They tried again later in 2010 and got to 55 votes, but that wasn't enough to pass a bill through the Senate at the time.  If the Dems do get the Senate back at some point I expect 55 votes will be more than enough.

And the thing about Puerto Rico is that even if they did fear some sort of backlash, they'd also be getting two Senate seats and maybe seven House seats worth of buffer against said backlash.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

This is actually something that feeds corruption in Puerto Rican government more than it benefits the citizens.  In fact, more Puerto Ricans pay Commonwealth Taxes than would pay Federal Taxes if they were a state because of the P.R. taxation system - basically the poor are getting robbed so that internal commonwealth pork spending and government skimming can take place.

Also, anyone who works for the government has to pay federal taxes.  Which is about 20% of the country.

Good information.  Trying to upload it into my memory on Puerto Rico 

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Just FYI over 90% of the population speaks English.

Good info.  From where is this info? 

 

[thayman]

Good info.  From where is this info? 

I'll see if I can find it, it was in an article about education I recall reading a few months ago.  

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

World Atlas, which I never heard of before has English speaking at substantially less.

 https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-languages-are-spoken-in-puerto-rico.html

 

[Tom Hagen]

I don't know why size should matter other than my preconceptions of what constitutes a state, and that is, of course, no reason at all.  Still, there it is. Hell, I have a tough time thinking of Rhode Island  or Delaware as real states, and actually I think one of them has some other designation in their official name, though it alludes me right now.

Officially the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations

 

[jiffy]

Would people now in favor of statehood for DC and PR feel it's the right thing to do if statehood meant adding 4 Republican Senators, 8 Republican House members and 7 Republican electoral college votes?

DC wouldn't even come close to being Republican. 

 

[thayman]

World Atlas, which I never heard of before has English speaking at substantially less.

 https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-languages-are-spoken-in-puerto-rico.html

wow and their literacy rate is at 99%.  I think my number is off, I can't find the article I seem to be misremembering.  Although your link has them at south of 10%, I do not think that is accurate.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Officially the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations

So a State, but one with a long name.  My bad then.  I thought it had an official designation, meaningless for any real purpose but there nonetheless, like commonwealth, but not actually commonwealth. I guess I would have gotten this one wrong on Jeopardy. Now that I see the name I do remember it. 

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

wow and their literacy rate is at 99%.  I think my number is off, I can't find the article I seem to be misremembering.  Although your link has them at south of 10%, I do not think that is accurate.

Having never used World Atlas I do not vouch for them, at all.

 

[thayman]

Having never used World Atlas I do not vouch for them, at all.

That's a crazy high number.  Seems like there is lots of different reports on the topic on The Googles.

 

[Insomniac]

I don't know why size should matter other than my preconceptions of what constitutes a state, and that is, of course, no reason at all.  Still, there it is. Hell, I have a tough time thinking of Rhode Island  or Delaware as real states, and actually I think one of them has some other designation in their official name, though it alludes me right now.

Rhode Island is officially the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations.

too late

 

[Ranethe]

We're already at this point and we're not returning to the way things used to be. The unwritten rules were changed by the right wingers, there's no point in the left playing by the old rules.

"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell

Unless the Democrats want to be the face in that image they better learn to stand up and fight back. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

That's always sort of how I assumed people felt. 

To be fair, Joe- your hypothetical is difficult because it assumes a radically different GOP, and is impossible without that.  If the party actually supported the empowerment of the minority-heavy populations of DC and Puerto Rico, then they wouldn't be the GOP I know and I'd feel a lot differently about furthering their interests more broadly.

It's like saying "you want to start Todd Gurley after he's posted 560 total yards and 9 TDs over the first five games, but would you also start Trent Richardson if he'd posted 560 total yards and 9 TDs over the first five games?"  The answer is yes, because if Trent Richardson did that he wouldn't be the guy we think he is.  He'd be something way, way better.

 

[Henry Ford]

To be fair, Joe- your hypothetical is difficult because it assumes a radically different GOP, and is impossible without that.  If the party actually supported the empowerment of the minority-heavy populations of DC and Puerto Rico, then they wouldn't be the GOP I know and I'd feel a lot differently about furthering their interests more broadly.

It's like saying "you want to start Todd Gurley after he's posted 560 total yards and 9 TDs over the first five games, but would you also start Trent Richardson if he'd posted 560 total yards and 9 TDs over the first five games?"  The answer is yes, because if Trent Richardson did that he wouldn't be the guy we think he is.  He'd be something way, way better.

I think it's also reasonable to assume his question encompasses "What if D.C. and Puerto Rico were basically just like Mississippi instead of their actual demographics?"

 

[TobiasFunke]

I think it's also reasonable to assume his question encompasses "What if D.C. and Puerto Rico were basically just like Mississippi instead of their actual demographics?"

Ah. Well then it's a tough one.

DC/PR statehood solves two existing problems with our democracy- the one where lots of people affected by the federal government don't have elected representation, and the one where the interests of the smaller/whiter states are so disproportionately favored that we have a minority governing a dissatisfied majority at the moment (and demographic trends suggest it may get worse). If it only solved the former problem but exacerbated the latter, I'd probably say no.  Good question though, @Joe Bryant, if that's what you meant.

 

[whoknew]

But what about the flag?

 

[jon_mx]

Just FYI over 90% of the population speaks English.

FYI...about 20 percent fluently. 

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Basically, yeah.  You don't really get to complain about the Garland seat and then in the next breath propose escalating things even further.  

Sure I do.

Compromising and/or complaining to non-existent authority and/or hoping voters give enough of #### about bad behavior to fix it for them hasn't worked out.  So punch twice for every punch, and harder.  Make them pay an insanely high price for all of it.  Every time you can.

Eventually maybe everyone exhausts themselves and there's a truce.  But it's never going to happen as long as all of it keeps working without a response.  And some fights are worth having.

But getting kicked in the nuts over and over and not responding in kind needs to end.  It didn't work out when Newt rode into town.  Didn't work out when Ken Starr worked his magic.  Didn't work out in Bush v Gore.  Didn't work out in Kenyun Soshalist.  Didn't work out in Merrick Garland.  Didn't work out in Russian Collusion.  And sure as #### isn't going to work out in the future unless there's pain in reply.

The willingness to exercise pure power and inflict damage on your enemies is the one thing Trump gets and we can all learn from.  It's his only tool, instead of just one of many, and used on everyone, instead of just his foes, but it's a good thing to be able to do.  And Dems have sucked at it since LBJ.

Go ahead:  bring up ethical zero, justice-obstructing, criminal co-conspirator Robert Bork again.  I'll wait.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

My experience in Puerto Rico is that most everyone does speak English in addition to Spanish.  Perhaps my experience is limited, in fact almost certainly it is.

Tim doesn't actually know if everyone speaks English or not.

He just likes to say non Caucasians that don't speak English as his reason.

Because everything is racism 

 

[timschochet]

Tim doesn't actually know if everyone speaks English or not.

He just likes to say non Caucasians that don't speak English as his reason.

Because everything is racism 

Not everything. But certainly it’s an important factor in considering why Puerto Rico will never be a state. 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Tim doesn't actually know if everyone speaks English or not.

He just likes to say non Caucasians that don't speak English as his reason.

Because everything is racism 

Judging from Tim's history, he would view his own statement assuming Puerto Ricans don't speak English as racist

 

[squistion]

English is not the official language of this country. There is no official language. The percentage of English spoken by Puerto Ricans as their first language should not enter into the mix for possible statehood.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Judging from Tim's history, he would view his own statement assuming Puerto Ricans don't speak English as racist

Good call 

 

[timschochet]

Judging from Tim's history, he would view his own statement assuming Puerto Ricans don't speak English as racist

So was calling them all poor. So was calling them all non-Caucasian. I was presenting a point of view, not my own. 

 

[Sand]

I would.  Political posturing is one thing, but people deserve a voice in their governments.  Puerto Rico and D.C. have been treated poorly and full representation is a way to help that.

PR has voted down statehood 4 times, including in 2012.  Not until 2017, when they managed to destroy their own economy, did the tide turn.  So it isn't as if they have been asking to be a state for a century or anything here.

 

[Henry Ford]

PR has voted down statehood 4 times, including in 2012.  Not until 2017, when they managed to destroy their own economy, did the tide turn.  So it isn't as if they have been asking to be a state for a century or anything here.

I agree.  But it’s a detriment to the people.  To a great extent it’s been voted down due to campaigns by the government and supporters trying to keep control of tax funds. In my humble opinion. 

 

[Sand]

I agree.  But it’s a detriment to the people.  To a great extent it’s been voted down due to campaigns by the government and supporters trying to keep control of tax funds. In my humble opinion. 

IMO the US govt should authorize territories to declare chapter 9.  Once they clean up their fiscal mess, then we should consider letting them in.  Right now they are in a bit of a twilight zone as they don't have any real hammer to wield over bond holders (though, to be fair, they were the ones that let a truly ridiculous amount of debt pile up. It's staggering.)

 

[Henry Ford]

IMO the US govt should authorize territories to declare chapter 9.  Once they clean up their fiscal mess, then we should consider letting them in.  Right now they are in a bit of a twilight zone as they don't have any real hammer to wield over bond holders (though, to be fair, they were the ones that let a truly ridiculous amount of debt pile up. It's staggering.)

Yeah, the people didn’t realize what was happening which is why they thought staying a territory was a great idea. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

English is not the official language of this country. There is no official language. The percentage of English spoken by Puerto Ricans as their first language should not enter into the mix for possible statehood.

Of course not. Only the percentage that would vote democrat matters. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Sure I do.

Compromising and/or complaining to non-existent authority and/or hoping voters give enough of #### about bad behavior to fix it for them hasn't worked out.  So punch twice for every punch, and harder.  Make them pay an insanely high price for all of it.  Every time you can.

Eventually maybe everyone exhausts themselves and there's a truce.  But it's never going to happen as long as all of it keeps working without a response.  And some fights are worth having.

But getting kicked in the nuts over and over and not responding in kind needs to end.  It didn't work out when Newt rode into town.  Didn't work out when Ken Starr worked his magic.  Didn't work out in Bush v Gore.  Didn't work out in Kenyun Soshalist.  Didn't work out in Merrick Garland.  Didn't work out in Russian Collusion.  And sure as #### isn't going to work out in the future unless there's pain in reply.

The willingness to exercise pure power and inflict damage on your enemies is the one thing Trump gets and we can all learn from.  It's his only tool, instead of just one of many, and used on everyone, instead of just his foes, but it's a good thing to be able to do.  And Dems have sucked at it since LBJ.

Go ahead:  bring up ethical zero, justice-obstructing, criminal co-conspirator Robert Bork again.  I'll wait.

Sexual misconduct and lying under oath is okay when my side does it.  But it's totally disqualifying when guys on the other side get caught.

 

[Sabertooth]

I agree.  The Democrats need to quit playing so nice.  They need new leadership that is as hard and vicious as their opponents.  The Pelosi and Schumer crowd needs to be cast aside (cause God knows they won't leave easily) and replaced with people who can combat Trump.  The Democrats have nobody close to Mitch McConnell or Donald Trump.  Basically those two along with Hillary have reduced the Democratic party to snivelling impotent whiners.  It's sickening.  Quite bringing a knife to this obvious gun fight.  

Hillary put herself above the country (just like Donald) and strong-armed her way to second place.  Big deal, first loser to be honest.  She won the nomination but lost two SCOTUS seats.  Was she worth it?  No.  She was going to usher in the golden age of women's lib right?  Nope - she set the movement back 40 years.  Now my daughters have to be raised in a post Trump - Kavanaugh United States.  Scary to me.  

 

[parasaurolophus]

I agree.  The Democrats need to quit playing so nice.  They need new leadership that is as hard and vicious as their opponents.  The Pelosi and Schumer crowd needs to be cast aside (cause God knows they won't leave easily) and replaced with people who can combat Trump.  The Democrats have nobody close to Mitch McConnell or Donald Trump.  Basically those two along with Hillary have reduced the Democratic party to snivelling impotent whiners.  It's sickening.  Quite bringing a knife to this obvious gun fight.  

Hillary put herself above the country (just like Donald) and strong-armed her way to second place.  Big deal, first loser to be honest.  She won the nomination but lost two SCOTUS seats.  Was she worth it?  No.  She was going to usher in the golden age of women's lib right?  Nope - she set the movement back 40 years.  Now my daughters have to be raised in a post Trump - Kavanaugh United States.  Scary to me.  

This sentiment is funny to me. You do realize that finding people to act like complete jerks to do this kind of bidding are in fact complete jerks right?

Do you really think that complete jerks would then do what is best for the country? 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

This sentiment is funny to me. You do realize that finding people to act like complete jerks to do this kind of bidding are in fact complete jerks right?

Do you really think that complete jerks would then do what is best for the country? 

And they tried that mess in 2016 and we saw how it went for them when Hillary pulled the Deplorables card.  Then we've heard for over two years how the Democrats are the adult in the room.  Yeah, not so much.

 

[parasaurolophus]

And they tried that mess in 2016 and we saw how it went for them when Hillary pulled the Deplorables card.  Then we've heard for over two years how the Democrats are the adult in the room.  Yeah, not so much.

I would say that the democrats are kind of the adults in the room right now. Sabertooth was saying he wants leaders that behave like republicans. That would mean the adults would be leaving the room. I am fine with getting new adults or wanting new smarter adults, but I cant figure out why you would want children.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I would say that the democrats are kind of the adults in the room right now. Sabertooth was saying he wants leaders that behave like republicans. That would mean the adults would be leaving the room. I am fine with getting new adults or wanting new smarter adults, but I cant figure out why you would want children.

Meh.  Compared to Trump anyone looks like an adult in the room.  But I wouldn't say Feinstein using the Ford sexual assault situation to her benefit politically is being an adult in the room.  That's just me though.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Meh.  Compared to Trump anyone looks like an adult in the room.  But I wouldn't say Feinstein using the Ford sexual assault situation to her benefit politically is being an adult in the room.  That's just me though.

Yes, but they follow him so they cant get a free pass. I am not saying it is far and away different, which is why I said kind of. But if we look at it objectively right now, it is really hard to make a case that democrats currently aren't behaving closer to mature, intelligent adults than republicans are. Doesn't make them such, we just happen to be grading on a curve here. 

 

[jon_mx]

Yes, but they follow him so they cant get a free pass. I am not saying it is far and away different, which is why I said kind of. But if we look at it objectively right now, it is really hard to make a case that democrats currently aren't behaving closer to mature, intelligent adults than republicans are. Doesn't make them such, we just happen to be grading on a curve here. 

Hmmmm....you have Hillary going around telling everyone not to be civil with Republicans and you have followers setting a truck on fire for having a Trump sticker on it.   I am not sure that qualifiers as being the intelligent mature adults.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Hmmmm....you have Hillary going around telling everyone not to be civil with Republicans and you have followers setting a truck on fire for having a Trump sticker on it.   I am not sure that qualifiers as being the intelligent mature adults.  

Does the person who set that truck on fire hold any office?  Because Hillary Clinton doesn't.