2013 Dynasty Rookie Rankings (1 Viewer)

[Concept Coop]

I think you're missing the point of what he's saying. If I understand him correctly, he's not just talking about who would win in a race. He's saying that elite speed is expected of thin players, and thus isn't exceptional. A guy who runs a 4.4 at a low BMI is not as exceptional as a guy who runs 4.4 at a high BMI. Thus the exact same time can be "average" for a thin player and "fast" for a thicker player.

Look at a guy like Jimmy Graham. In a vacuum, 4.53 is an average 40 time. However, 4.53 is a VERY GOOD 40 time for a player who is 6'6" 260 pounds. A big blind spot with most casual draftniks is that they just look at the times in a vacuum with minimal consideration for how they relate to the player's height/weight. Thus you get people believing that guys like Jamaal Charles and CJ Spiller are much more athletic than guys like Trent Richardson and Doug Martin when in reality they're probably pretty similar if you slide the scale to adjust for the vast difference in bulk/strength.

The real freaks aren't the guys like DeSean Jackson who can run fast in tiny frames, but rather the players like Andre Johnson, Jonathan Stewart, and Maurice Drew who have little guy speed in massive frames.

I understand and agree with what you're saying. I just don't think it's what he's claiming. Not clearly, at least, no offense.

This is what he's saying:

"In NFL terms, McCalebb really isn't that fast, given his size."

"Both Hester and Sproles are slow given their size..."

If Hester is slow for his size, who is fast for his size? If DeSean Jackson is slow for his size, who is fast for his size? If 4.34 is slow for a 168 pounder, what is average? What is fast?

 

[Coleman]

I think you're missing the point of what he's saying. If I understand him correctly, he's not just talking about who would win in a race. He's saying that elite speed is expected of thin players, and thus isn't exceptional. A guy who runs a 4.4 at a low BMI is not as exceptional as a guy who runs 4.4 at a high BMI. Thus the exact same time can be "average" for a thin player and "fast" for a thicker player.

Look at a guy like Jimmy Graham. In a vacuum, 4.53 is an average 40 time. However, 4.53 is a VERY GOOD 40 time for a player who is 6'6" 260 pounds. A big blind spot with most casual draftniks is that they just look at the times in a vacuum with minimal consideration for how they relate to the player's height/weight. Thus you get people believing that guys like Jamaal Charles and CJ Spiller are much more athletic than guys like Trent Richardson and Doug Martin when in reality they're probably pretty similar if you slide the scale to adjust for the vast difference in bulk/strength.

The real freaks aren't the guys like DeSean Jackson who can run fast in tiny frames, but rather the players like Andre Johnson, Jonathan Stewart, and Maurice Drew who have little guy speed in massive frames.

This ^

You articulate it better than I ever could.

Size matters in the NFL in a big way. McCalebb doesn't have the size to be anything more than space back in the NFL, while Miller has a workhorse profile.

That's fine, but that's not what you're claiming. Who was the lineman that ran a 4.7, or something like that? Could he play corner now? Or return kicks? His adjusted 40 would likely measure up to anyones.

Size/speed ratio is important - yes. But that is different than claiming players are "slow for their size". That's why big guys don't get a head start in track events and why 300 pounders don't play corner, despite their good size/speed ratio.

Without deeper study, his agility measurements would be terrible for a DB. But that's just being ridiculous. Obviously a 300+ player isn't going to line up at DB, I'm being realistic here. McCalebb is slow for his size in the modern NFL. Guys who are 215+ pounds are running the same speed as him.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

he's not just talking about who would win in a race.

He might not be, but that's exactly the question that he was asked to answer, originally.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

Onterio McCalebb and Lamar Miller ran the same time, 4.34. The difference is that Miller is 44 pounds heavier than McCalebb. In NFL terms, McCalebb really isn't that fast, given his size.

That's simply not accurate. He'd be one of the fastest players in the NFL. His size/speed combination might not be as impressive, but he's just as fast.

Size matters in the NFL in a big way. McCalebb doesn't have the size to be anything more than space back in the NFL, while Miller has a workhorse profile.

That doesn't change how fast he is in a straight line.

Never said it did. We can debate all day about who's faster than who in a straight and whatnot, but there's more than just 40 yard dash times that goes into my analysis.

As there should be. But running fast in a straight line is exactly what was being talked about, in this case.

 

[Concept Coop]

Size matters in the NFL in a big way. McCalebb doesn't have the size to be anything more than space back in the NFL, while Miller has a workhorse profile.

That's fine, but that's not what you're claiming. Who was the lineman that ran a 4.7, or something like that? Could he play corner now? Or return kicks? His adjusted 40 would likely measure up to anyones.

Size/speed ratio is important - yes. But that is different than claiming players are "slow for their size". That's why big guys don't get a head start in track events and why 300 pounders don't play corner, despite their good size/speed ratio.

Without deeper study, his agility measurements would be terrible for a DB. But that's just being ridiculous. Obviously a 300+ player isn't going to line up at DB, I'm being realistic here. McCalebb is slow for his size in the modern NFL. Guys who are 215+ pounds are running the same speed as him.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, then. You don't mean fast for a certain size. You are talking about size/speed ratio. Which I agree matters. And I don't know what that has to do with Hester and Murray running a race. If I simpy misunderstood you - my apologies.

 

[Coleman]

Size matters in the NFL in a big way. McCalebb doesn't have the size to be anything more than space back in the NFL, while Miller has a workhorse profile.

That's fine, but that's not what you're claiming. Who was the lineman that ran a 4.7, or something like that? Could he play corner now? Or return kicks? His adjusted 40 would likely measure up to anyones.

Size/speed ratio is important - yes. But that is different than claiming players are "slow for their size". That's why big guys don't get a head start in track events and why 300 pounders don't play corner, despite their good size/speed ratio.

Without deeper study, his agility measurements would be terrible for a DB. But that's just being ridiculous. Obviously a 300+ player isn't going to line up at DB, I'm being realistic here. McCalebb is slow for his size in the modern NFL. Guys who are 215+ pounds are running the same speed as him.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, then. You don't mean fast for a certain size. You are talking about size/speed ratio. Which I agree matters. And I don't know what that has to do with Hester and Murray running a race. If I simpy misunderstood you - my apologies.

The other gentleman articulated it far better than I could. No worries, it's the internet. Misunderstandings happen.

 

[Lavachebeadsman]

For those interested, I went ahead and posted my ranks as well

 

[Tibereas]