ACL injuries-now vrs. 30 years ago (1 Viewer)

[shadrap]

I'm taking the lazy way out with no facts but just seems like they are more commonplace these days vrs. the old days.

Wonder why?

 

[Truebluey]

You want a quick answer? 

Physics. 

I'd be happy to explain more tonight. 

 

[Anarchy99]

If you mean "in general," then that is probably true. If you mean "this year," that is also true but that stems from the limited off season. In prior years when there was a limited off season due to labor issues, there were many more injuries once the season got under way. We are seeing that again this year. I meant to start a thread on this over the summer that people needed to be better prepared than most years to deal with injured players but never got around to it.

 

[-jb-]

Players are bigger stronger faster. That creates more stress on the body and these guys are now pushing what’s possible physically to the limit. 

 

[Deamon]

Faster, bigger, stronger athletes for sure plays a roll.  Also maybe the surface... is there more Turf now than 50 years ago?

 

[LawFitz]

Faster, bigger, stronger athletes for sure plays a roll.  Also maybe the surface... is there more Turf now than 50 years ago?

This.

Physics of larger, more explosive musculature +

Turf doesn't produce divots when planted cleats pivot like grass does - not even the best modern synthetics. And athletes are resistant to wearing shorter turf cleats due to being on the razor's edge of performance competitiveness.

 

[shadrap]

This.

Physics of larger, more explosive musculature +

Turf doesn't produce divots when planted cleats pivot like grass does - not even the best modern synthetics. And athletes are resistant to wearing shorter turf cleats due to being on the razor's edge of performance competitiveness.

wasn't thinking of the turf factor but that makes the most sense along with the bigger, faster aspect.

 

[shadrap]

I mean think about it.  Walter Payton started like 160 games or so.  

 

[glock]

"After my first knee operation, in January of '65 before I went to the Jets, Dr. James Nicholas told me everything went well and that I could probably play four years in the NFL. The surgery was trailblazing to a certain extent."

-Joe Namath

1965  (NINETEENSIXTYFIVE )

55 years ago. Think just how primitive that surgery must have been compared to today.

 

[Rhythmdoctor]

Players are bigger stronger faster. That creates more stress on the body and these guys are now pushing what’s possible physically to the limit. 

I don’t buy this explanation. 
 

Me personally, I think it’s shoes or training. 

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

Better surgical procedures are probably a factor. They are allowing people to return who are at high risk. 

 

[I-ROK]

If you get bigger, stronger, your ligaments, bones, etc also get stronger. It’s why a 600 pound man can walk around without issue (relatively), but if you suddenly add 500 pounds to a 100 pound person, chances are they get hurt. 
 

yes, at some point the body can only take so much and have limits. I think with advances in supplements and performance enhancement drugs we are seeing some guys get too big for their bodies, or maybe too big too fast and their bodies can’t adjust

 

[Ilov80s]

I don’t buy this explanation. 
 

Me personally, I think it’s shoes or training. 

Why? Players are 50-100 pounds heavier than they were even 30 years ago and they are far more athletic. It makes logical sense. F= MxA

 

[Biabreakable]

ACL injury to a RB used to be a career ender.

The first RB to have a good season after ACL surgery was Terry Allen. 

Here is an article about that.

become the first running back to gain 1,000 yards after two ACL surgeries

 

[Rhythmdoctor]

Why? Players are 50-100 pounds heavier than they were even 30 years ago and they are far more athletic. It makes logical sense. F= MxA

Maybe lineman are 50 pounds heavier but they’re not the guys getting ACL injuries. RBs/WRs are basically the same size as they’ve always been yet are suffering way more blown ACLs. Heck, I’d argue that WRs are smaller on average than they used to be. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Maybe lineman are 50 pounds heavier but they’re not the guys getting ACL injuries. RBs/WRs are basically the same size as they’ve always been yet are suffering way more blown ACLs. Heck, I’d argue that WRs are smaller on average than they used to be. 

I am not going to aggregate the data but I think a few things are happening

1. We notice injuries more with skill positions than non skill positions because of fantasy. We know all these players even  a 4th string RB so if he tears his knee we notice where as if the 4th DT on a team does, it is more likely to be off the radar. 

2. It's not just size, also speed/burst. Looking at combine events, it sure seems like players keep getting more and more explosive. If you look at the formula for momentum, velocity is a far bigger factor than mass. 

 

[Biabreakable]

Maybe lineman are 50 pounds heavier but they’re not the guys getting ACL injuries. RBs/WRs are basically the same size as they’ve always been yet are suffering way more blown ACLs. Heck, I’d argue that WRs are smaller on average than they used to be. 

I recall from reading some stuff ZWK put together that shows RB have been getting heavier overall compared to their weights in the 1980s and that generally being heavier is good.

Its been awhile since I have looked at something like that, but that is what I recall seeing.

I don't think the ideal size and weight for a RB has changed from 5' 10" 220 lbs for as long as I have been paying attention to this game.

 

[Deamon]

I am not going to aggregate the data but I think a few things are happening

1. We notice injuries more with skill positions than non skill positions because of fantasy. We know all these players even  a 4th string RB so if he tears his knee we notice where as if the 4th DT on a team does, it is more likely to be off the radar. 

2. It's not just size, also speed/burst. Looking at combine events, it sure seems like players keep getting more and more explosive. If you look at the formula for momentum, velocity is a far bigger factor than mass. 

Good points here. 

In terms of the 2nd one, I think speed is the issue.  Back in the day there were a lot of bruiser backs.  Now, as an RB, cutting and having the ball in open space is FAR  more important than it used to be.  A lot of these Injuries come without contact, in open space when cutting or planting.

 

[[scooter]]

One factor that hasn't been brought up yet is that a lot of guys never got a "chance" to tear their ACL because their careers ended early from other injuries that would be considered "minor" by today's standards -- a meniscus tear, for example.

It's similar to why there are so many more people getting cancer nowadays. It's not because cancer is necessarily more prevalent; it's because people are surviving other illnesses and simply living longer.

 

[Biabreakable]

Good points here. 

In terms of the 2nd one, I think speed is the issue.  Back in the day there were a lot of bruiser backs.  Now, as an RB, cutting and having the ball in open space is FAR  more important than it used to be.  A lot of these Injuries come without contact, in open space when cutting or planting.

I listened to an interesting interview with Dalvin Cook who said he tore his ACL trying to make a hard cut against a Lions defender. He regrets making that cut because he didn't need to do that to make the defender miss.

In relation to that I did come across a study showing correlation between players with fast 40 times having more of these types of injuries than others, which does support the idea that they are pushing their bodies to the limit and the more quick twitch they are also the higher risk of hurting themselves. I read a lot about this stuff when Adrian Peterson had his ACL.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Artificial playing surfaces are thought to be an issue with the players union in the recent spike in injuries. Story out a few hours ago quoting NFLPA president J.C. Tretter.

J.C Tretter: ‘Only Natural Grass Can Level The NFL’s Playing Field’
 

The San Francisco 49ers had to play back-to-back games against the New York Jets and the New York Giants. Sure, it was two wins for them as they are the much superior team to those two, the effects were still felt though. Both of the New York teams play at MetLife Stadium. MetLife is an artificial turf field, one many believe didn’t help the number of injuries the Niners’ came across in the last couple weeks, including the season ending injuries.

NFL investigated the field, found nothing to be wrong with it. This did not change how the players or coaches felt. NFL Players Association President J.C. Tretter discussed how the inspection is a flawed process.

“It’s true that NFL-NFLPA inspectors evaluate practice and game fields through the Clegg test, which measures the hardness of the surface. The Clegg test, however, is extremely limited in its ability to tell us about the performance or safety of a field and is not nearly as comprehensive for what the modern game requires.”

So, basically all teams can really find out is how hard the field is, it helps some - there is more to it though. With the recent spike in injuries there will undoubtedly be new ways to tests field surfaces before to long. Tests that let you know how safe it is to cut on a route, dig in and more.

Tretter said, “as a rookie learning the ins and outs of being a professional football player, I remember the collective groan that my older teammates made whenever it was announced that we’d be practicing indoors on artificial turf instead of the usual outdoor grass field”. The center was used to playing on turf fields in college, so he never thought much of it. Once he began noticing the difference between natural grass fields and turf fields, he understood why his teammates despised it. Whenever he would practice on artificial surfaces, his joints were noticeably stiffer the following day....

Go to the link for the rest of the read.

 

[Ostro]

Damn, some of you are saying 'because players are getting bigger.' That's the complete opposite of my thinking.

My guess would be the lack of practice, and ####ty pads that these people play in.

Look at the shoulder pads from the 90's and look at them now. They're 4x bigger back then.

Not to mention the players not wanting to practice with or without pads because they might get hurt. Maybe if they practiced more and hit the weight room more often, they might not get hurt. I understand ACL injuries is a little different than a broken bone, but the same premise still applies.

If theirs any other bills fans to back me up on this let me know. I'm too lazy to find some articles, but I know there's some out there.

A couple years ago when the Pagula's (Bills/Sabres owner) bought the Bills, he had a state of the art conditioning center put in at the stadium. New weight room and a whole bunch of other state of the art equipment so the players can train at the stadium.

Now, the big thing with this, is that the Bills have less injuries in the past 3 years combined(major injuries- injuries that you'd lose a player for a whole season) than we did for each of the prior years before we had that put in.

So, it looks to me like if you practice and hit the weight room more often, you'd get less injuries. Huh, who woulda thought.  SMH....

I don't know how old you guys are on here, but does anyone remember what a REAL sack looks like?? You know, the ones where the DE/DT would completely destroy a QB and slam him to the ground?

Yeah, they used to do that when they actually wore pads when playing....

 

[GroveDiesel]

Damn, some of you are saying 'because players are getting bigger.' That's the complete opposite of my thinking.

My guess would be the lack of practice, and ####ty pads that these people play in.

Look at the shoulder pads from the 90's and look at them now. They're 4x bigger back then.

Not to mention the players not wanting to practice with or without pads because they might get hurt. Maybe if they practiced more and hit the weight room more often, they might not get hurt. I understand ACL injuries is a little different than a broken bone, but the same premise still applies.

If theirs any other bills fans to back me up on this let me know. I'm too lazy to find some articles, but I know there's some out there.

A couple years ago when the Pagula's (Bills/Sabres owner) bought the Bills, he had a state of the art conditioning center put in at the stadium. New weight room and a whole bunch of other state of the art equipment so the players can train at the stadium.

Now, the big thing with this, is that the Bills have less injuries in the past 3 years combined(major injuries- injuries that you'd lose a player for a whole season) than we did for each of the prior years before we had that put in.

So, it looks to me like if you practice and hit the weight room more often, you'd get less injuries. Huh, who woulda thought.  SMH....

I don't know how old you guys are on here, but does anyone remember what a REAL sack looks like?? You know, the ones where the DE/DT would completely destroy a QB and slam him to the ground?

Yeah, they used to do that when they actually wore pads when playing....

The Bills put in an awesome facility, but what made it stand out wasn’t necessarily the weight equipment, it’s all the recovery stuff they have. Saunas, cryo chambers, hyperbaric chambers, hydrotherapy pool, massage rooms, acupuncture, hot yoga, etc. And they’ve put a ton of investment into sports science to create individual health and recovery programs for every player.

It’s not so much the strength they’re focused on, it’s whole body health. Strength is part of it, but so is nutrition, flexibility, speed, recovery, basically whole body health.

 

[3nOut]

I mean think about it.  Walter Payton started like 160 games or so.  

I think it's just more terminology than anything. Back then, they just said knee injury, even though it was an ACL. Only doctors used those terms, not the general public. There were many ACL injuries, just ask Gale Sayers - may he rest in peace.

 

[LawFitz]

Artificial playing surfaces are thought to be an issue with the players union in the recent spike in injuries. Story out a few hours ago quoting NFLPA president J.C. Tretter.

J.C Tretter: ‘Only Natural Grass Can Level The NFL’s Playing Field’
 

Go to the link for the rest of the read.

Again, it's this more than anything else.

Turf, even modern rubber-pellet-infused surfaces - which are MUCH better to fall on - are still horrible for sudden change of direction. The reason is two-fold:

1. With natural grass when the cleat pivots on a hard cut, the grass gives, and creates a divot in the field, but doesn't torque the knee or ankle. Synthetic turf, even modern versions, don't have that same give, paticularly problematic when

2. Played on with deeper cleats - which the players prefer b/c it gives them the best footing. Players don't care about injury risk, if wearing shorter turf-cleats creates a sizeable performance disadvantage, which it does.

Knowing the above - google the articles and studies supporting this concept - the simple and easy solution is to limit the types of cleats players can wear on synthetic surfaces. Require them all to wear turf shoes, instead of 'multi-ground' cleats and you would very likely see an instant reduction in ligament injury prevalance. Due to the Prisoners' Dilemma concept (look it up), the players won't do that for themselves, so it's something that the league would need to mandate.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Miami Dolphins 1972...only team to go undefeated all the way thru the Super Bowl 17-0!

Let's look at the height/weight of their starting DL and OL while we are checking up...

Stanfill-DE 6-5 and 250

Manny Fernandez Nose Tackle 6-2, 250 lbs...

Vern Den Herder DE 6-6, 250...

OLine now...

All of them including Hall of Fame Larry Little and Jim Langer right around 250 lbs....Langer passed in 2019 FYI...

 

[TwinTurbo]

Again, it's this more than anything else.

Turf, even modern rubber-pellet-infused surfaces - which are MUCH better to fall on - are still horrible for sudden change of direction. The reason is two-fold:

1. With natural grass when the cleat pivots on a hard cut, the grass gives, and creates a divot in the field, but doesn't torque the knee or ankle. Synthetic turf, even modern versions, don't have that same give, paticularly problematic when

2. Played on with deeper cleats - which the players prefer b/c it gives them the best footing. Players don't care about injury risk, if wearing shorter turf-cleats creates a sizeable performance disadvantage, which it does.

Knowing the above - google the articles and studies supporting this concept - the simple and easy solution is to limit the types of cleats players can wear on synthetic surfaces. Require them all to wear turf shoes, instead of 'multi-ground' cleats and you would very likely see an instant reduction in ligament injury prevalance. Due to the Prisoners' Dilemma concept (look it up), the players won't do that for themselves, so it's something that the league would need to mandate.

I completely agree with this. Shoe outsole selection is often completely overlooked, even at the NFL level. On a related note, here's a study for soccer cleats that assessed the optimal range of shoe-surface traction as it related to performance and injury over a complete season: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6490939/

Also just my opinion but I vastly prefer a pair of Nike AG soccer cleats over a pair of Nike (American) FG football cleats for playing either version of football, on modern turf. The stud design on multi-ground football cleats is outdated, if you are playing RB or WR or even CB on turf. There are too many toe and heel studs along the peripheral sole line (edge design) that are also too high. It's supposed to give a player extra grip when they push off and improve traction, but it's not shocking that this type of design also gets caught deep in the turf and even natural grass resulting in injury. This older 3 year study of high school football players showed that the edge design cleats were associated with a significantly higher ACL injury rate: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8775112/

 

[shadrap]

Good points here. 

In terms of the 2nd one, I think speed is the issue.  Back in the day there were a lot of bruiser backs.  Now, as an RB, cutting and having the ball in open space is FAR  more important than it used to be.  A lot of these Injuries come without contact, in open space when cutting or planting.

immediately thought of Larry Csonka.  he only made a cut to run into an additional defender.

 

[TwinTurbo]

Another gruesome injury, this time Dak. It's mind boggling these teams haven't figured out they have to stop allowing players to wear soft ground cleats with full length studs on artificial turf. Nike, Adidas, all of the shoe companies. Do your job. Make turf shoes for turf. It's so simple. 

 

[Doug B]

Also just my opinion but I vastly prefer a pair of Nike AG soccer cleats over a pair of Nike (American) FG football cleats for playing either version of football, on modern turf. The stud design on multi-ground football cleats is outdated, if you are playing RB or WR or even CB on turf. There are too many toe and heel studs along the peripheral sole line (edge design) that are also too high. It's supposed to give a player extra grip when they push off and improve traction, but it's not shocking that this type of design also gets caught deep in the turf and even natural grass resulting in injury. This older 3 year study of high school football players showed that the edge design cleats were associated with a significantly higher ACL injury rate: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8775112/

I played HS football in suburban New Orleans in the late 1980s. We played one game on artificial turf, in the Superdome. Coaches on both squads would not allow the players to wear cleats on the old Dome carpet. Everyone on both sides wore flat-soled athletic shoes.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I played HS football in suburban New Orleans in the late 1980s. We played one game on artificial turf, in the Superdome. Coaches on both squads would not allow the players to wear cleats on the old Dome carpet. Everyone on both sides wore flat-soled athletic shoes.

Look at the video of Dak's poor foot when he holds it up. He's wearing the same cleats for real grass, soft ground surfaces. Now maybe the injury still happens either way but I think his foot doesn't get stuck if he's wearing turf shoes and definitely not if he was wearing flat-soled shoes.