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Cam Newton another Vince Young? RGIII next? (1 Viewer)
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
Waldman didn't write it, can't remember who did. I thought it was awful. Just don't want Waldman's name to be tied to it, when it wasn't him.
thriftyrocker
Footballguy
Certainly the fact that Washington has adapted its offense to the Baylor college system means there is some gimmick to it that will be figured out. Vick's post-prison breakout was much more dominant and in a traditional offense, yet it just took one DC making a change to pull the reins.
Vince was a good NFL QB in TENN. He could win games and that's 90% of it. Fisher gets credit for building an offense around him, but Vince gets credit for making plays. Vince did not have a huge speed edge so now that his athletic skill has downgraded, it's right he's not even worthy to be Fitzpatrick's backup. An OC can no longer build an offense around his skills, and he's not a good enough QB to execute a proper offense.
McNabb changed as he got older. When he was young, he got a lot of rushing stats. The pass game was mediocre but consistent. He won games. When his speed dropped a notch, he stopped running. He was a good enough QB and was ingrained enough in the system, that he could execute Reid's offense. He still won games, but not as many.
Of course Brady's game changed too. He was a game manager for his first 3 years. Eli's game changed too, and it took him about 7 years to get it and be consistent. Someone like Alex Smith took years before he could even be a passable game manager. You could say McNabb was a game manager his first 3 to 5 years too, just with rushing.
I don't think Chud has built a good offense around Cam. That's pretty much the biggest red flag. More than his personality. The Shanahans have it better figured out.
Vince was a good NFL QB in TENN. He could win games and that's 90% of it. Fisher gets credit for building an offense around him, but Vince gets credit for making plays. Vince did not have a huge speed edge so now that his athletic skill has downgraded, it's right he's not even worthy to be Fitzpatrick's backup. An OC can no longer build an offense around his skills, and he's not a good enough QB to execute a proper offense.
McNabb changed as he got older. When he was young, he got a lot of rushing stats. The pass game was mediocre but consistent. He won games. When his speed dropped a notch, he stopped running. He was a good enough QB and was ingrained enough in the system, that he could execute Reid's offense. He still won games, but not as many.
Of course Brady's game changed too. He was a game manager for his first 3 years. Eli's game changed too, and it took him about 7 years to get it and be consistent. Someone like Alex Smith took years before he could even be a passable game manager. You could say McNabb was a game manager his first 3 to 5 years too, just with rushing.
I don't think Chud has built a good offense around Cam. That's pretty much the biggest red flag. More than his personality. The Shanahans have it better figured out.
dollarbill13
Footballguy
Ah yeah, it was Nathan Miller on Waldman's site: http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/10/15/robert-griffin-iii-first-ballot-inductee-not-so-fast/
Banger
Footballguy
no. he's white.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I'll bet none of those guys could run a marathon
Cookiemonster
Footballguy
I'm going to reserve opinion until I see them downhill ski and compete in water polo.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Something tell me they could dance circles around most of their peers, however.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
I know it's a small sample size, but I was pretty impressed with RGIII on Sunday vs. the Giants. That play at the end of the game where he dodged JPP and then threw the bomb and got a TD (I think) was awesome.
After watching Vince Young on the Eagles last season, the only question I was left with was "How did he stay in the league as long as he did?". He couldn't throw to save his life and he was DADS.
After watching Vince Young on the Eagles last season, the only question I was left with was "How did he stay in the league as long as he did?". He couldn't throw to save his life and he was DADS.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Or swim.
Warren Moon thinks a lot of folks in this thread are racist
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/23/moon-thinks-criticism-of-newton-is-off-base-possibly-racist/
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/23/moon-thinks-criticism-of-newton-is-off-base-possibly-racist/
Insein
Footballguy
RG3 is a different breed. As an Eagles fan, I've been watching a lot of him on Red Zone this year and he scares me. All the athletic ability of vick when he came out but he also has the prowess of a pocket passer. He can read a defense and knows where to go with the football. It's ridiculous how good he looks from a passing perspective in his rookie year. Redskins look scary going forward all because of him. Totally worth 3 first rounders.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Lets not forget that Newton had the best rookie season ever, a year ago. A slow start with poor support around him, doesn't change the fact that there isn't another young QB who's a different breed than Newton, in term of potential.But you're right about RG3: he is a special player and being used perfectly.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
As a Seattle guy I liked Moon as a player..... but he is an idiot sometimes. He is one of those guys that LOVES to pull the race card anytime he can. I would say by always claiming racism he is a racist himself.
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
A black guy raised in the 60's is racist becuase he thinks it is possible that African Americans can be treated differently in America?
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Newton is a metal midget....lets not forget that either. RG3 is the total package, the only thing Newton has on RG3 is a little more size. You could offer me 3 first rounders and Newton...... I would still hold onto RG3.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
With what he has been able to do with adversity around him - I'll take that kind of mental midget. Win me football games, and I don't care what people think about you chewing gum, putting a towel over your head, pulling an Aaron Rodgers every time you run it in, smile for the camera...And, take it how you want, I wouldn't accept your definition of what is and isn't mentally viable.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Its 2012, we have an African American president. We treat Jay Cutler like #### but nobody says he's being treated that way because he is white...they just say he is an idiot. The idea that race has ANYTHING to do with the way Newton is treated is ignorant on Moon's part. Do you agree with Moon or are you just arguing to argue? If so who or which media outlets are racist? Most of them seem pro-Obama to me.If you act like a tool after every loss you will get killed in the media regardless of race.
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
I don't know if any of it has to do with race or not. I agree that Newton is held to a different set of standards, but then so are non-black polarizing people. But I can't go inside the heads of those writing about Newton. And the fact that our president is half black hardly means racism is dead. It's not. And I didn't call, nor did Moon, any media outlet racist.And call it ignorant - fine. But I am not going to go around labeling those most affected by racism, racist themselves, for having their view's altered by their circumstances.
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The racial paradox argument is a lazy man's argument and a common logical fallacy
No surprise here but you clearly didn't read the article.Moon is complaining that Cam is drawing Vince comparisons when he should be drawing Jay Cutler comparisons
jackdubl
Footballguy
I'm pretty sure Cam can read and write, so that already puts him ahead of Vince Young.
As far as race goes, I'm pretty sure Cam actually gets less criticism because of it, not more. Media doesn't want to be labeled as racists. That is changing, however, as the new car smell wears off.
As far as race goes, I'm pretty sure Cam actually gets less criticism because of it, not more. Media doesn't want to be labeled as racists. That is changing, however, as the new car smell wears off.
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ImTheScientist
Footballguy
"I heard somebody compare him to Vince Young. It’s the same old crap – it’s always a comparison of one black to another black. I get tired of it. I get tired of defending it"
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Moon said that?! I take it back; he is clearly racist.
Here are some numbers to put Cam's supposed 'bust' year in perspective
Cam's 2nd year
YPG 231.2, Comp 58.4%, YPA 8, TD 2.9%, Int 3.5%, Rat 79.3
Matt Ryan's 2nd year
YPG 208.3, Comp 58.3%, YPA 6.5, TD 4.9%, Int 3.1%, Rat 80.9
Eli Manning's 4th year
YPG 208.5, Comp 56.1%, YPA 6.3, TD 4.3%, Int 3.8%, Rat 73.9
Roethlisberger's 3rd year
YPG 234.2, Comp 59.7%, YPA 6.1, TD 3.8%, Int 4.9%, Rat 75.4
Drew Brees 2nd year as starter
YPG 191.6, Comp 57.6%, YPA 5.9, TD 3.1%, Int 4.2%, Rat 67.5
Cam's 2nd year
YPG 231.2, Comp 58.4%, YPA 8, TD 2.9%, Int 3.5%, Rat 79.3
Matt Ryan's 2nd year
YPG 208.3, Comp 58.3%, YPA 6.5, TD 4.9%, Int 3.1%, Rat 80.9
Eli Manning's 4th year
YPG 208.5, Comp 56.1%, YPA 6.3, TD 4.3%, Int 3.8%, Rat 73.9
Roethlisberger's 3rd year
YPG 234.2, Comp 59.7%, YPA 6.1, TD 3.8%, Int 4.9%, Rat 75.4
Drew Brees 2nd year as starter
YPG 191.6, Comp 57.6%, YPA 5.9, TD 3.1%, Int 4.2%, Rat 67.5
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Concept Coop
Footballguy
And that is without rushing stats, which can't be ignored. But, you have to admit, they don't chew gum or sit on the sideline with towels on their heads. Only the mentally weak do that.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Because he is a hateful racist. Of course he says things like this. It's who he is, and it's wrong. Hurtful and wrong. On a serious note: it's the same subject and conversation. A black QB who was subjected to stereotypes feels he sees it being repeated - feels Newton is going through some of the same things he went through. The issue here is?
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
it's funny because when I was reading page one I was going to post a comparison to cutler, seeing as how there's a 30 page thread ripping him.
cracKer
Shawn Culcasi
W/L records were also missing from that list. The dude just doesn't come across as a leader if men. Has nothing to do with his stats or his race, it has everything to do with the way he portrays himself. It's Cams world and Carolina fans are stuck in it...unfortunately. Just make you cheer loudly for him next time he runs one in and does his Superman pose, down by 4 scores....otherwise you are racist'Concept Coop said:
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Nobody here has called anyone racist, or suggested it, even - lets make that clear.A second bit of information you are missing: The Panthers were down 15, after scoring on their first opportunity to do so in the 2nd half, when Cam took flack for celebrating. His teammate, Steve Smith, celebrated a 40 yard catch, later on in the 4th, when the game was truly out of hand - nobody seems to care about that. Now, on to the good points you made: W-L record does matter, but more so later on during a players career. Is it truly realistic to expect a 2nd year player to be responsible for winning game against better coached teams with more talent?He might not be a leader of men, but if he wins games, the locker room will follow. Again, Eli and even more so, Big Ben were called out for lack of leadership early on. Neither are leaders of men, the way Tom Brady is, yet, they are in the top 5-7 "leaders" at the QB position today. Why? Becuase they have rings. This is the first season in which Newton retained teammates since high school.
cstu
Footballguy
Concept Coop
Footballguy
I think it deserves a sig.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Earth-to-Coop, Earth-to-Coop.....nobody cares about WR's or what they do, the league is all about the Quarterback.
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
Mental midget, you say?
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
i'm pretty sure warren moon did -- or mcnabb, or whoever that was.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
"One of those black guys said it."Please tell me more about mental midgets.
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ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Ryan Leaf.
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