Can T.O. or Moss possibly catch Jerry Rice... (1 Viewer)

[cvnpoka]

Moss = 17.56% chanceTO = 0% chance

way too high for moss imo. proly like 5% would be generous.

 

[Jersey35]

It's amazing how much the repeated misspelling of a word can make you think less of a person's argument - regardless of the validity of the argument itself.

Bellow: to emit a hollow, loud, animal cry, as a bull or cow.

Below: at or to a lower position or place

 

[FUBAR]

The Randy Ratio was an awful system, yet somehow Moss still made it work. There is no system friendlier than the revolutionary WCO that SF had. SF had the best coaching and best QB at the time. Minn had neither.

Ummm... the Randy Ratio guaranteed Randy 160+ targets a year. Of course he made it work, it's one of the most conducive systems to WR production the league has ever seen.

and the only reason it worked at all is that Moss is one of, if not the, best WR of all time. I don't know if Rice would have had the same success with it, maybe but I doubt it. As already mentioned though, Moss benefited from this system for 5 years. Then he had the 2007 season with Brady. He may have had 9 years where he was in an ideal situation to put up stats. Rice had 14 years of being the lead WR for two of the best QBs in the history of the league, in a system where they passed a lot. Look what happened when the 49ers went from Young to Garcia, Rice dropped 237 yards (to 830) despite still playing 16 games. Granted, he was 37 at that point, but that's a big drop and he was able to put up over 1,000 with Oakland later. He just had to deal with a lesser QB for a season for the first time.

If we compare Moss's years with George, Cunningham, CPep and Brady vs. Rice's with Montana and Young:

Rice 85-98: 14 years, 164 TDs, 11.7 TDs/Year

Moss 98-04, 2007, 2009: 9 years, 126 TDs, 14 TDs/Year (including Cassel keeps him at 13.7 TD/Yr)

A good part of Rice's brilliance was his ability to play for 20 years, and he certainly was one of the best. But when lucky enough to play with decent QBs, Moss has produced better receiving stats. He just didn't have the fortune of playing with good QBs as long. Rice has 5 seasons of 15 or more TDs in 20 years, Moss has 4 in 12; I'd wager Moss has another 15 TD year in him (especially if he plays 8 more).

We'll see what happens in NE though, for all we know, he and Brady will stick together for another 5 (doubtful, but possible). Or maybe Moss will head off to Green Bay, Houston, Indy, etc. Some of this argument is premature until Moss hangs it up.

 

[SSOG]

The Randy Ratio was an awful system, yet somehow Moss still made it work. There is no system friendlier than the revolutionary WCO that SF had. SF had the best coaching and best QB at the time. Minn had neither.

Ummm... the Randy Ratio guaranteed Randy 160+ targets a year. Of course he made it work, it's one of the most conducive systems to WR production the league has ever seen.

and the only reason it worked at all is that Moss is one of, if not the, best WR of all time. I don't know if Rice would have had the same success with it, maybe but I doubt it. As already mentioned though, Moss benefited from this system for 5 years. Then he had the 2007 season with Brady. He may have had 9 years where he was in an ideal situation to put up stats. Rice had 14 years of being the lead WR for two of the best QBs in the history of the league, in a system where they passed a lot. Look what happened when the 49ers went from Young to Garcia, Rice dropped 237 yards (to 830) despite still playing 16 games. Granted, he was 37 at that point, but that's a big drop and he was able to put up over 1,000 with Oakland later. He just had to deal with a lesser QB for a season for the first time.

If we compare Moss's years with George, Cunningham, CPep and Brady vs. Rice's with Montana and Young:

Rice 85-98: 14 years, 164 TDs, 11.7 TDs/Year

Moss 98-04, 2007, 2009: 9 years, 126 TDs, 14 TDs/Year (including Cassel keeps him at 13.7 TD/Yr)

A good part of Rice's brilliance was his ability to play for 20 years, and he certainly was one of the best. But when lucky enough to play with decent QBs, Moss has produced better receiving stats. He just didn't have the fortune of playing with good QBs as long. Rice has 5 seasons of 15 or more TDs in 20 years, Moss has 4 in 12; I'd wager Moss has another 15 TD year in him (especially if he plays 8 more).

We'll see what happens in NE though, for all we know, he and Brady will stick together for another 5 (doubtful, but possible). Or maybe Moss will head off to Green Bay, Houston, Indy, etc. Some of this argument is premature until Moss hangs it up.

Again, I never said that Moss's situation was anywhere near as good as Jerry Rice's. That would be an absurd argument and impossible to defend. The only all-time great receiver who has had QB play anywhere near what Rice enjoyed is Marvin Harrison. I'm simply saying that, while Culpepper/Cunningham/Brady are no Montana/Young/Gannon, they still represent an upgrade in QB play over what most all-time great WRs have enjoyed. Randy Moss has had the good fortune of playing in some very, very favorable systems over his career. That's a simple fact.

 

[hardcoredx]

TO physically speaking is the greatest ever and Moss is a close second.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Update?

 

[lod01]

Update?

Sure. NO CHANCE.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

TO physically speaking is the greatest ever and Moss is a close second.

Possibly, but being a great athlete doesn't make you a great receiver. Also, having great hands would help. TO has above average to good hands.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Update...

Rice: 303 games, 197 rec TD (+10 rush TD)

Owens: 219 games, 153 rec TD (+3 rush TD)

Moss: 202 games, 153 rec TD (0 rush TD)

 

[zoonation]

Update...Rice: 303 games, 197 rec TD (+10 rush TD)Owens: 219 games, 153 rec TD (+3 rush TD)Moss: 202 games, 153 rec TD (0 rush TD)

The most telling stat is the games played. If either T.O. or Moss were in good enough shape to play that many games they would likely beat that record. They aren't, so they won't.I will say T.O. was performing at a really high lvel last year before he got hurt.Moss is finished. He's lost a step and that means stick a fork in him. He was painful to watch last year. I don't think he plays anywhere this year.

 

[Faust]

Update...

Rice: 303 games, 197 rec TD (+10 rush TD)

Owens: 219 games, 153 rec TD (+3 rush TD)

Moss: 202 games, 153 rec TD (0 rush TD)

The most telling stat is the games played. If either T.O. or Moss were in good enough shape to play that many games they would likely beat that record. They aren't, so they won't.I will say T.O. was performing at a really high lvel last year before he got hurt.

Moss is finished. He's lost a step and that means stick a fork in him. He was painful to watch last year. I don't think he plays anywhere this year.

But wait...his agent claims that Moss is in "freakish shape"

Three and out: Randy Moss in ‘freakish shape’

Moss working to make impact: If you drafted Moss last season, I don’t have to tell you that he was the biggest bust in fantasy football. After playing for three teams and producing some of the worst numbers of his career, his stock is clearly on the downside. But will that actually make Moss a bargain? His agent claims Moss is in “freakish shape” and plans to return to the “old Randy Moss.” Whether the veteran wideout, 34, can accomplish his goal could depend on where he lands. Everyone knows that Moss has the reputation of playing when he wants to play, so if he’s with a winner (like the Jets) he could be more motivated. But fantasy owners will be disappointed if the expectations are that Moss will be the elite player he was with the Vikings and Patriots. I’d roll the dice on him no sooner than the middle to late rounds.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Update...Rice: 303 games, 197 rec TD (+10 rush TD)Owens: 219 games, 153 rec TD (+3 rush TD)Moss: 202 games, 153 rec TD (0 rush TD)

The most telling stat is the games played.

It is, but not in the way you seem to think it is. You're making the same mistake others made earlier in the thread. It took Rice just 186 games to get to 153 receiving TDs. Then, he put up totals over the back end of his career that no one has ever matched (see any of my earlier posts in this thread for examples). So they didn't score as many TDs as Rice did in their respective primes, but you think that they would somehow outpace Rice by a wide enough margin in the tail end of their careers to make up the difference?Not only is it obvious that neither TO nor Moss will play 303 games, I'm convinced that even if they did, they still probably wouldn't catch Rice.

 

[spider321]

There has never been another receiver that could hold Jerry's jock, and I don't think there ever will be.

He should have his own wing added to the HOF.

 

[BaBastage]

I don't see any way Owens catches Rice.

Moss has been averaging between 11 and 13 TD's per season (Depending if you want to include or exclude last year and the Oakland years.)

I think it's possible that he maintains 10-13 TD's for the next few years, but highly unlikely. As mentioned, he'd have to play on a winner team with a QB willing to chuck him the ball a lot.

Therefore, I doubt it happens.

The shame of it is that 5 years ago I was predicting that no one would ever catch Rice. I still feel that way, but Moss could have if he had a little more heart. ymmv.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Update...

Rice: 303 games, 197 rec TD (+10 rush TD)

Owens: 219 games, 153 rec TD (+3 rush TD)

Moss: 202 games, 153 rec TD (0 rush TD)

The most telling stat is the games played.

It is, but not in the way you seem to think it is. You're making the same mistake others made earlier in the thread. It took Rice just 186 games to get to 153 receiving TDs. Then, he put up totals over the back end of his career that no one has ever matched (see any of my earlier posts in this thread for examples). So they didn't score as many TDs as Rice did in their respective primes, but you think that they would somehow outpace Rice by a wide enough margin in the tail end of their careers to make up the difference?Not only is it obvious that neither TO nor Moss will play 303 games, I'm convinced that even if they did, they still probably wouldn't catch Rice.

Most touchdowns through 12 seasons: http://pfref.com/tiny/xhnsp (Jerry Rice)

Most touchdowns through 13 seasons: http://pfref.com/tiny/0jDlM (Jerry Rice) (Moss has played 13 years; Rice is up 166-153)

-- Most touchdowns in seasons 14+: http://pfref.com/tiny/jThsi (Jerry Rice, 42; next closest is Marcus Allen with 25; next closest WR is Charlie Joiner with 18)

Most touchdowns through 14 seasons: http://pfref.com/tiny/2V0ln (Jerry Rice)

Most touchdowns through 15 seasons: http://pfref.com/tiny/s0k53 (Jerry Rice) (Owens has played 15 years; Rice is up 180-156)

-- Most touchdowns in seasons 16+: http://pfref.com/tiny/S9G4E (Jerry Rice, 28; next closest is Charlie Joiner with 15).

 

[DesmondBishop]

If Moss had the work ethic Jerry or T.O. had, he surely would have gotten close, but he is such a pathetic me first player that only tries when he feels like it, he blew the chance for himself.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

I look for Randy to quit football in 2-3 years; just an opinion...

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

No.