Cheap Shot or Not? (1 Viewer)

[footballnerd]

seriously, without the psychological fear of punishment for going over the middle, WRs will have an unfair advantage over the secondary. Part of the reason they drop balls is the hit they expect to receive. You get these WRs thinking someone is going to catch them and place them over a bed of flowers and they will catch everything. I like Shipley, think hes going to be a great player, but I guarantee that rook will remember that hit throughout his career.

 

[Mello]

i dont understand why "leading with the shoulder" should absolve him of all responsibility. he clearly attempted to take the guys head off in a brutal and unnecessary fashion.

That's a TD if he doesn't make that hit. It was completely necessary.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I officiate high school football....and as an official...when it comes to unneccessary roughness, etc.....usually you know it when you see it.........it's pretty clear cut....and many times it is actually very difficult at live action speed to determine things like did he lead with the helmet or did his shoulder make contact first, etc.....I'm all for player safety, but at game speed these guys can't always adjust at the last second, and there will be some brutal collisions.....

some of the worst hits at all levels are on the peel back blocks when a guy doesn't see the other guy coming.....often those hits do more damage than hits by DB's to "defenseless" receivers, yet I have not heard the league come out and say anything like "hey take it easy on those blocks when you know you got the guy locked in on radar and he doesn't see you coming"......those are the times for sure where guys could technically just get in the way or make a solid block just by extending their arms or something, they're not trying to break up a pass or dislodge a ball....yet they don't, they go for the biggest hit possible......if the league is really concerned about these things, they should address the peel back blocks as well......

 

[Truman]

I don't see why this is a flag, and I usually hate it when safeties tee off on receivers. In this instance, Shipley has caught the ball in the endzone and Ward is trying to prevent the TD. It's not as if the ball is gone, the play is over and Rodney Harrison sees a chance to get a cheap shot in. Shipley comes in pretty low and Ward actually comes in lower than he could have so he could dislodge the ball. If Ward doesn't duck down he would have got a much cleaner shot at Shipley's head.

 

[Truman]

i dont understand why "leading with the shoulder" should absolve him of all responsibility. he clearly attempted to take the guys head off in a brutal and unnecessary fashion.

That's a TD if he doesn't make that hit. It was completely necessary.

 

[cvnpoka]

i dont understand why "leading with the shoulder" should absolve him of all responsibility. he clearly attempted to take the guys head off in a brutal and unnecessary fashion.

That's a TD if he doesn't make that hit. It was completely necessary.

lol. he had already missed the catch by a few seconds when the hit was made. smashing a dudes head with any part of your body at full speed is a cheap shot imo.

 

[Truman]

i dont understand why "leading with the shoulder" should absolve him of all responsibility. he clearly attempted to take the guys head off in a brutal and unnecessary fashion.

That's a TD if he doesn't make that hit. It was completely necessary.

lol. he had already missed the catch by a few seconds when the hit was made. smashing a dudes head with any part of your body at full speed is a cheap shot imo.

By a few seconds? The entire play from the time Palmer releases lasts less than a second, how can he recognize the ball is dropped and pull out of the hit in that timeframe?

 

[j3r3m3y]

Borderline. The ball was already on the ground when he hit him. I realize that things happen fast out there, but that's the reason I think you could call it an unnecessary hit. It looked like he tried to lead with his shoulder, but there did appear to be helmet to helmet contact first.

I don't know...I could see it going either way. Voted borderline cheapshot.

 

[cvnpoka]

the ball appears to be in the air on some of the replays bc it has actually already bounced off the ground. this is pretty much indisputable if you pay just a small amount of attention to the actual play rather than droning on old man yells at clowd about the good old days when ruining health and lives was applauded.

 

[daveR]

Borderline. The ball was already on the ground when he hit him. I realize that things happen fast out there, but that's the reason I think you could call it an unnecessary hit. It looked like he tried to lead with his shoulder, but there did appear to be helmet to helmet contact first.

I don't know...I could see it going either way. Voted borderline cheapshot.

BSShipley hit the ground before the ball did.

That's wrong. Watch it again. On the close up of the hit the ball has already hit the ground and is bouncing up when the hit is made.But it's the combination of all factors that makes it a borderline cheapshot. Like I said, I realize that things happen fast out there.

For those who keep referring to how it used to be and guys like Jack Tatum, we know a LOT more about head injuries and the long term affects that shots to the head cause. It just doesn't make any sense to allow guys to take shots at other guys heads, no matter what part of your body you are leading with.

Watched it about 20 times. Still don't see what you're saying.Anybody got a different video?

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

If a suspension is handed down, it will and should be aggressively appealed. Fine I can agree with, suspension not so much.

 

[notdarkyet]

i dont understand why "leading with the shoulder" should absolve him of all responsibility. he clearly attempted to take the guys head off in a brutal and unnecessary fashion.

That's a TD if he doesn't make that hit. It was completely necessary.

WTF? The ball damn near hit the ground TWICE at the time he was hit. Is there some sort of new one bounce rule I'm late on catching up to?

 

[notdarkyet]

Borderline. The ball was already on the ground when he hit him. I realize that things happen fast out there, but that's the reason I think you could call it an unnecessary hit. It looked like he tried to lead with his shoulder, but there did appear to be helmet to helmet contact first.

I don't know...I could see it going either way. Voted borderline cheapshot.

BSShipley hit the ground before the ball did.

That's wrong. Watch it again. On the close up of the hit the ball has already hit the ground and is bouncing up when the hit is made.But it's the combination of all factors that makes it a borderline cheapshot. Like I said, I realize that things happen fast out there.

For those who keep referring to how it used to be and guys like Jack Tatum, we know a LOT more about head injuries and the long term affects that shots to the head cause. It just doesn't make any sense to allow guys to take shots at other guys heads, no matter what part of your body you are leading with.

Watched it about 20 times. Still don't see what you're saying.Anybody got a different video?

8 second mark, in slow mo you clearly see the ball bouncing off the turf and back on the way down at the time of impact.

 

[Terps2002]

i dont understand why "leading with the shoulder" should absolve him of all responsibility. he clearly attempted to take the guys head off in a brutal and unnecessary fashion.

let's be honest, the recent rule changes have all favored the offense and the WR.......the intimidation and making you think about having your clocked cleaned is about all these DB's have left.........

If he wanted to "take his head off" he probably would have followed through with the shot then letting up at the end. The way I saw it he led with his shoulder and Shipley started to go down making the contact worst then it should have been.BTW the NFL defines leading with the helmet as the crown of the helmet (very top of the helmet), you have every right as a player to put your facemask into the opposing players facemask. The rule is to protect offensive players and defensive players from hurting themselves. The NFL doesn't want you dropping your head or spearing the top of your helmet under somebody's chinThe defender has to be given a reasonable amount of time to stop his momentum. The hit was unfortunate but it wasn't malicious or illegal.

 

[Mentos]

the ball appears to be in the air on some of the replays bc it has actually already bounced off the ground. this is pretty much indisputable if you pay just a small amount of attention to the actual play rather than droning on old man yells at clowd about the good old days when ruining health and lives was applauded.

Agreed. I don't know what some of these other people are looking at. This was a more egregrious foul than when Eric Smith almost destroyed Anquan Boldin. If I'm not mistaken Smith was fined and suspended as a result. For those who are defending Ward, I'd love to see them all get hit in a similar fashion and not be mad one iota at Ward. "That's okay you unnecessarily concussed me, Mr. Ward. That was a great football play on your part."

 

[Da Guru]

i dont understand why "leading with the shoulder" should absolve him of all responsibility. he clearly attempted to take the guys head off in a brutal and unnecessary fashion.

let's be honest, the recent rule changes have all favored the offense and the WR.......the intimidation and making you think about having your clocked cleaned is about all these DB's have left.........

If he wanted to "take his head off" he probably would have followed through with the shot then letting up at the end. The way I saw it he led with his shoulder and Shipley started to go down making the contact worst then it should have been.BTW the NFL defines leading with the helmet as the crown of the helmet (very top of the helmet), you have every right as a player to put your facemask into the opposing players facemask. The rule is to protect offensive players and defensive players from hurting themselves. The NFL doesn't want you dropping your head or spearing the top of your helmet under somebody's chinThe defender has to be given a reasonable amount of time to stop his momentum. The hit was unfortunate but it wasn't malicious or illegal.

At regular speed it is bam..bam. Just trying to stop a TD.

 

[comfortably numb]

the ball appears to be in the air on some of the replays bc it has actually already bounced off the ground. this is pretty much indisputable if you pay just a small amount of attention to the actual play rather than droning on old man yells at clowd about the good old days when ruining health and lives was applauded.

Agreed. I don't know what some of these other people are looking at. This was a more egregrious foul than when Eric Smith almost destroyed Anquan Boldin. If I'm not mistaken Smith was fined and suspended as a result. For those who are defending Ward, I'd love to see them all get hit in a similar fashion and not be mad one iota at Ward. "That's okay you unnecessarily concussed me, Mr. Ward. That was a great football play on your part."

Of course anyone would be mad, cause they got their ### knocked down.Ever see a catcher block the plate, get run over, then complain?Ever see a QB throw an INT, and get knocked over by a CB, then the QB is complaining.I just don't get the idea.You want your players to make big physical hits, but not too big or not to hard.In the nano second that you realize the ball is not caught you have to let up?Def players are gonna start tearing knees apart, when they try to stop on a dime in mid stream when they realize a WR does not have control of the ball or when the QB has officially released the ball.It was a big hit, big hits look ugly, they look horrible at times, but he lowered his shoulder on a player coming to him with the ball in his hands.and yes, the ball was out of his hands, but at that point Ward may have already closed his eyes and prepared for impact in hopes of dislodging the ball and saving a TD.It's just very easy for us to watch a replay 46 times, have our opinions, complain, cheer etc...But when you are on the field playing for a WIN, or saving your job, you have to play physical and realize the unfortunate injuries happen in the split seconds we re debating.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Great post, comfortably numb. It is easy for fans to watch a play in slo-mo after the fact, but hits like that happen in a split second. If you already having your momentum going in for the hit, and the ball is dropped at the last second, it is not always that easy to just stop. This is football. Big hits happen. People sometimes get hurt. That's the way it has always been.

 

[daveR]

Borderline. The ball was already on the ground when he hit him. I realize that things happen fast out there, but that's the reason I think you could call it an unnecessary hit. It looked like he tried to lead with his shoulder, but there did appear to be helmet to helmet contact first.

I don't know...I could see it going either way. Voted borderline cheapshot.

BSShipley hit the ground before the ball did.

That's wrong. Watch it again. On the close up of the hit the ball has already hit the ground and is bouncing up when the hit is made.But it's the combination of all factors that makes it a borderline cheapshot. Like I said, I realize that things happen fast out there.

For those who keep referring to how it used to be and guys like Jack Tatum, we know a LOT more about head injuries and the long term affects that shots to the head cause. It just doesn't make any sense to allow guys to take shots at other guys heads, no matter what part of your body you are leading with.

Watched it about 20 times. Still don't see what you're saying.Anybody got a different video?

Yeah. I see it now. I change my vote to "unnecessary / late".Ward was drafted to hit, that's what he's about, and I don't know that it was the classic "helmet to helmet", but it was late. No doubt.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I am all for player safety, but I have never liked the "defenseless" receiver rule......who puts the receiver in a defenseless position?.....the receiver and the QB......if you don't want to get hit in a defenseless position, don't put yourself in it........nobody is forcing these guys to be put in the position....yet we expect the defenders to make split second adjustments and stop on a dime or not hit a guy in a certain area........I agree leading with the helmet should be illegal, but everything else should be fair game........if a WR gets blown up by a hit that is not with the helmet there should be no flag.......run the ball if you don't want to throw it....

The "defenseless receiver" rule is ridiculous. If the WR holds onto the ball then people call it a good clean hit. If he drops it prior to getting hit then it's considered a cheap shot, even though the majority of the time the defender has no idea the receiver dropped it or sees it at the last possible instant. Defenders lower their head to hit someone with their shoulder. Where are they supposed to see that the ball came loose, through the top of their helmet?This is simple, really. Guys get paid millions of dollars to play receiver in the NFL. It's a dangerous job, and you're compensated appropriately for it. Consider it hazard pay. If you're scared of getting concussions or not being able to walk in your 70's then there are plenty of other career choices out there and plenty of other guys that are willing to take the risk going over the middle for millions of dollars.

 

[rayjones248]

Total cheap shot. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for hard nose hitting football but when the play is over anything beyond is a personal foul. TJ Ward should of made that hit on the ball; not after the play was over.

Fine and suspension for the rookie. That is all.

 

[Fanatics]

How about two-hand touch? But wait, you can only touch on the lower back, above the waist and only with your thumbs!

 

[Voice Of Reason]

are some of you guys

obv blown call by the refs. lead with shoulder, didn't even leave the ground, clean hit

 

[delusional]

Cheap shot.

Sure he lead with his shoulder....at the guys head. I can't understand why there is a discussion on this. He tried taking the guys head off literally.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

At first I couldn't see that the ball had already bounced off of the ground by the time T.J. made his hit.

I had to slow it down to see that the ball bounes on ground and DB hits him, so even though it happened very fast it was a late hit.

Shipley was off the ground so the hit looks worse than what it was but you can see that T.J. did not lead with his helmet or leave the ground and follow thru making the hit.

Shipley's head hitting the ground is what caused the concussion.

Bad throw by Carson. Palmer delivered a high meat ball over the middle right in front of a defender where his WR had to leap and leave his feet to make a play on the ball.

If the ball is in lower the WR doesn't have to leave his feet. If Jordan isn't up in the air he is able to absorb and bounce off the hit by Ward instead of getting upended and coming down hard on his head on the ground.

The effect of his head bouncing off the ground is what caused the concussion not the hit by Ward so the fact he was in the air is significant and a direct cause of the injury because it he wasn't up in the air he would have just bounced off of the late hit and more than likely the official wouldn't have thrown a flag in the first place.

It was a late hit but the effect of the hit is because Shipley was left vulnerable going up in the air so I have to suspicion the throw. I can't blame T.J. for delivering a hard shot however, even though this is a bam-bam play I fault him for making a late hit.

I fault the concussion on the high throw over the middle by Palmer because that is why Shipley was up in the air and Jordan wouldn't have bounced off the hit instead of his head boucning off the ground if he wasn't off his feet.

 

[3C's]

Those saying it wasn't helmet to helmet apparently don't realize that doesn't matter. The rule was changed in 2009 to: Any hits to a "defenseless" receiver cannot be made by a defender's helmet, forearm or shoulder to the head.

It was a cheap, flag-able, fine-able, and possibly suspension (though not likely) worthy shot because the ball had already hit the ground, the receiver was in a defenseless position (without the ball even) and Ward went high at the head. If he had hit him in the ribs it might have been a late hit at the most and probably not even flagged.

 

[CaptainHook]

seeing #### like this start to get flagged honestly makes me consider not watching anymore. if it gets worse i will probably move on.

 

[Fanatics]

seeing #### like this start to get flagged honestly makes me consider not watching anymore. if it gets worse i will probably move on.

 

[Bobcat10]

People need to stop acting like Ward had 5 seconds to react to a dropped TD catch.

If the WR makes the catch and the safety pulls up there....I don't want that safety on my team.

 

[treat88]

Palmer should be fined and suspended for getting his receiver laid out.

Ward made a play that from his angle was all about separating the receiver from the ball in the end zone.

It's exactly what he is paid to do.

With one step's time frame there is no way he could know that Shipley had already whiffed the catch.

If he holds up and Shipley makes the catch, he's to blame for the TD.

If I'm the owner, coach, or teammates I'd pay that fine for him and make sure he makes the exact same play next time.

 

[Uwe Blab]

Cheap/late hit. Fine him a good amount. Suspend him a game.

 

[RobMexico]

I hate to see anyone get hurt, but as many have stated, it is hard to stop momentum at some points. Also in the endzone you gotta do your best to dislodge the ball, so guys in the middle will get popped.

I don't think it was a "cheap" shot, but I wouldn't be surprised about a fine. A suspension is out of the question.

If it were Troy Polomalu out there making that hit, the announcers woulda been talking about how tough a football player he is.

 

[Kosar]

BTW the NFL defines leading with the helmet as the crown of the helmet (very top of the helmet), you have every right as a player to put your facemask into the opposing players facemask. The rule is to protect offensive players and defensive players from hurting themselves. The NFL doesn't want you dropping your head or spearing the top of your helmet under somebody's chin

This isn't true at all. Maybe on the O and D lines, but if a defensive player catches one inch of a QB or WR helmet, they are getting flagged.

 

[Kosar]

I don't care if Ward gets fined or suspended. The fact that he said "I'd do it again" after the game is all I need to know that we finally found a safety worth a damn.

 

[Dismattle]

Should the Ref's have thrown a flag? (eject the QB, OC, or the Coach?) What was he thinking? Did you guys catch the Bears lining up only five lineman?

I doubt that everyone from the OC to the QB to hopefully Shipley himself was not totally shocked on the outcome. I imagine if they were at all surprised that it was well played.

I know we have all seen plays like (time 4:30) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp2ErPgTJZA (Troy on the ground needing a touch) and we probably all seen replays to verify player was touched (common sence you tackle!) <--suks

The fact is that Football is a contact sport! The NFL requires Speed, Strength, Skill, and Size in every position but NFL WR's really only need to know one thing, the fear of only GOD himself. I honestly would have selected borderline play, but cheapshot is a bit much. A cheapshot used to mean goin for the legs...

I imagine if you could come up with a flag on the offence for poor play-calling or bad decision-making that it could lead to some changes ie. A Kick Returner decides to not wave-off and gets slammed (15 yds for poor judgement). However if contact is inevitable, and the defender is attempting to let up, Im pretty sure the offensive player will instintually lower the boom. The player who hits the hardest, hurts the least.

How bad do you want it?

Wear your BIG-BOY Pads Shipley, I wanna see a PLAYMAKER!!!

 

[wadegarrett]

Former NFL VP of Officiating Mike Pereira on T.J. Ward's hit: 'I think it was a cheap shot and he needs to be hit hard'

Cleveland.com

Wednesday, October 06, 2010

BEREA, Ohio -- Former NFL Vice President of Officiating Mike Pereira, now the rules analyst for Fox Sports, called T.J. Ward's hit on Bengals receiver Jordan Shipley a cheap shot and said he thinks the NFL should fine Ward at least $25,000.

"Nobody in the league likes to say that somebody took a cheap shot at somebody. But I'm not in the league," said Pereira, who joined Fox this season after 10 years as the league's director and then V.P. of officiating. "And I think it was a cheap shot and I think he deserves to be hit and he needs to be hit hard."

Pereira said the play was severe enough to warrant something far more substantial than the standard $5,000 or $7,500 for a late hit.

"I'd look at the severity of the hit and even the fact that it led to the concussion and this is just my opinion -- but I'd start at the $25,000 mark. To me, I'd make it stiff. He needs to learn his lesson. If people say you're making an example of T.J. Ward, I'd say 'so be it.' There's no place in the game for that stuff."

Pereira agreed with Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer and receiver Terrell Owens, who called the hit a cheap shot after the game Sunday and lit into Ward on the field.

"I think it's one of the worst I've seen in a while," said Pereira. "I think it's the exact hit that the NFL is trying to get out of the game. There's no intent to tackle. There's just a lead with the shoulder to the head and helmet-to-helmet hit and it's after the ball is on the ground."

Other excerpts from the Pereira interview:

• "You can see why Carson Palmer went in there and the Cincinnati players were upset. In my mind, it's worse than just the normal shoulder or helmet-to-the-head hit. Sometimes helmet-to-helmet contact or shoulder to head contact could be considered incidental, but this was a shot. He knew exactly what he was doing."

• "I think it's a hit that every other player in this league needs to look at and realize that's not acceptable."

• "It's an expensive lesson for him to learn. I understand he's a rookie but it's no excuse. I just wish I could muster up some sympathy for him, but I can't."

• "I would virtually assure you that the letter would say something to the effect that if it does happen again, he'd be subject to suspension. I won't be surprised if the number is pretty substantial."

• "Cleveland fans may not like it that your own player is going to be disciplined for an act like this, but it's the facts. The Bengals were called for a hit on a defenseless receiver [ben Watson] also, but it wasn't as nearly as brutal as this. It was a player who left his feet and launched and it's suspect if there was even any contact with the head. This was such a clear lead to the head that it can't be tolerated."

Browns coach Eric Mangini said Monday that Ward is "not a dirty guy" and that he doesn't want to curtail his aggressiveness. However, he did stress he wants him to play within the rules.

 

[comfortably numb]

I just want to make sure I understand people calling this a cheap shot.

A "cheap shot" can be classified in many ways.

I classify it as a premeditated, and calculated move with intent to injure a player.

I really don't see that as the case with Ward.

Now, lets take a look at these nice clean hits.

Now, we expect Ward to switch from doing his job (make sure Shipley does not catch the all in the endzone) and while he is in motion on doing his job, he has to acknowledge the ball has been dropped, and begin to let up.

While the links above, (and we all have seen them) are OK...any player can get a 10 yard head start, find an unsuspecting player (who does not have the ball), line him up at an angle that will send him doing a backflip, and make even a guy like Randy Moss look Butkis.

These are allowable?

These "have a place in the NFL"?

If we expect Ward within a fraction of a second to let up, why can't we ask Moss to just stiff arm this guy or just push them out of the way, instead of lowering a shoulder, that would have also done the job.

 

[GregR_2]

I just want to make sure I understand people calling this a cheap shot.

A "cheap shot" can be classified in many ways.

I classify it as a premeditated, and calculated move with intent to injure a player.

I really don't see that as the case with Ward.

Now, lets take a look at these nice clean hits.

 

[cvnpoka]

id say the hines ward hit was deserving of a penalty of some sort bc of the execution and the results. rivers suffered a broken jaw, so ward obv hit his jaw with his helmet. bang bang play blah blah precision game of inches. the law is results oriented and striking a player in the jaw causing a fracture should be dealt with.

 

[comfortably numb]

I just want to make sure I understand people calling this a cheap shot.

A "cheap shot" can be classified in many ways.

I classify it as a premeditated, and calculated move with intent to injure a player.

I really don't see that as the case with Ward.

Now, lets take a look at these nice clean hits.

Guess well just disagree.I don't know he intentionally went after his head, just looks like Shipley came into his area, and by the time the ball got there with Ward, he just lowered his shoulder.



If he went as lower and broke a rib, i guess it would not be cheap?

 

[GregR_2]

I just want to make sure I understand people calling this a cheap shot.

A "cheap shot" can be classified in many ways.

I classify it as a premeditated, and calculated move with intent to injure a player.

I really don't see that as the case with Ward.

Now, lets take a look at these nice clean hits.

Targeting a hit on someone's body is less cheap than targeting the hit on someone's head. Why would you think anyone would answer otherwise?

 

[Steel Dillo]

Now imagine it was Hines Ward laying a bone crushing block on TJ Ward.

Would his reputation sway more people to call this a cheap shot? I think so.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Targeting a hit on someone's body is less cheap than targeting the hit on someone's in the head. Why would you think anyone would answer otherwise?

Because a lot of people in this world are reactionary and base their opinion on something like this strictly on the outcome. This is the same way that people base their opinion on whether or not a certain decision made by a coach in a football game is smart or stupid based on the result of it. The same people that think Sean Payton is a genius for kicking an onside kick to open the second half of the Super Bowl because the Saints recovered it, but would have called the same exact decision idiotic if the Colts had gotten it.If he went low and the guy hurt his knee, reactionary people would call it a cheapshot. If he went midsection and injured his ribs, they would have said the same.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Total cheap shot. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for hard nose hitting football but when the play is over anything beyond is a personal foul. TJ Ward should of made that hit on the ball; not after the play was over. Fine and suspension for the rookie. That is all.

At least half the people in this thread had to watch the clip multiple times and in slow motion to see that the ball had hit the ground. Yet you expect a player going in full speed, not getting the benefit of watching it multiple times, with his eyes moved off the ball once he decides to try and hit the receiver to dislodge the ball, to see it without a problem on his first try?