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Creation vs. Evolution (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter larry_boy_44
- Start date
If you don't believe in or worship any gods, you are still an atheist. You're an atheist who realizes that picking a god just in case is senseless.
You're not acknowledging that there is a god. You're just acknowledging that even if there is a god, it still doesn't make sense to "pick one."
Mr. Anonymous
Footballguy
Well, fortunately, the Jews, Muslims, and Christians share the exact same God, so that narrows down your choices a bit. When you add in the religions that believe in a single creator deity (Australian aborigines? and others), and figure they've just got different stories about the same creator, the choice is even easier.Then you've just got to decide whether you're pissing off the many gods (if one of the pantheistic relgions is right) or whether you're wasting your time (if there is no God).Fortunately, we grew up in a culture descended from the monotheistic religions, so we can instinctively pick the "right" God if, in fact, there is one and only one. Or not, if we choose, since we also great up in a culture that permits freedom of religion.
That's a big assumption. Thor will not be impressed when you "instinctively pick the right god".Mr. Anonymous
Footballguy
That's why I said that we could still be in trouble with pantheistic religions.Unless Thor IS "God," in which case I would just say that I meant him but got the story wrong.
I want to know what it is that makes people think they have an eternal soul. It is extraordinarily clear to me that consciousness and life derives from the electro-chemical reactions in the brain. That when those reactions stop, you stop, full-stop, no more. That consciousness is simply an evolved trait that helped our species gain a natural survival edge.Somebody who actually believes in an eternal soul - what's the deal? What's the nature of the soul? I'll warn you ahead of time that this is a booby trapped question, as I've read some pretty good essays at EbonMusings about the nature of the "soul"...
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shining path
:prettyplease:
MT,Tell me where this isn't making sense.
1. You don't believe there is a God(s) based upon what you know.
2. You realize that you don't know everything
3. You realize that you could gain some potential utility by believing in a God(s)
4. You don't want to lose utility (drinking for the early games) so you pick a God(s) that allow this or minimizes your investment. (i.e. creates a positive EV for you)
5. You realize that by picking the wrong God(s) you could actually create a negative EV (your penalty is worse than not believing)
6. You are back to square one of not believing but armed with the knowledge that you did not believe for fear of picking the wrong one and creating negative EV.
The real argument against this, to me, is that you can't "fake" faith.
Your sequence becomes incorrect at step 3.An atheist can certainly make that statement, as we have been, but you have to understand that by doing so they are simply taking part in a thought exercise. To an atheist, actually believing in god(s) is just as impossible as disbelieving is to a theist. So starting at step 3, every argument is merely part of a hypothetical construct to be used in a thought exercise. It's no longer "real".
bostonfred2
Footballguy
It's also quite possible that God's answer is, live honestly, be good, don't lie, and that He sees lying to God about your faith in Him as the worst form of dishonesty. The problem with Pascal's wager, to me, is that it assumes that "picking one" is the same as actually believing in God.
Maybe God doesn't want you to lie to Him? Maybe He just wanted you to believe in something bigger, and He's trying to help keep you from getting guided away by the Kool Aid drinking cults out there?
----
Or maybe - and this is what I'd like to believe - maybe God loves you anyways. Imagine your niece or nephew, going to their grandma's house on Christmas day, then going to Aunt Suzie's house, then showing up at your house later on. You have a big present sitting under the tree, but before you give it to them, you ask your niece who their favorite is, and they say you. Are they being completely honest? Or just trying to get the present?
Even if they are lying a little to get the present, do you care, or do you still love them?
And what if they say "Grandma"? Or their adoptive parent? Does that in any way impact their love for you? Does that in any way impact your love for them?
To me, just be honest with yourself. Don't pretend to be something you're not. If right now, you believe in the religion in which you were raised, cool. If you don't believe in that religion, but you know you believe in something, that's cool too. And if at this point in your life, you don't believe in God, I bet God thinks that's OK too - just don't pretend to be an atheist because you think it's smart or cool or rebellious.
Mark Speener
Comfortably Numb
I wonder what would happen when Christians learn that some the days of the week are named after gods that aren't God?My points is that Thor follows Odin even there.
ElGatoLoco
Footballguy
Is it kind of scary that Jericho's post was the 666th of this thread?
Of course. I also acknowledge the possibility that an alien battle cruiser will warp into our atmosphere tomorrow, that a giant space slug will devour our sun next Easter, and that Angelina Jolie may knock on my door tonight with a trench coat and a can of whipped cream.Possibilities come in degrees. And they are independent of what I actually believe.
Mark Speener
Comfortably Numb
Odin - Ripped his eye out and traded it for wisdomThor - Cuckold, 0\/\/n3d by LokiYou got me on the TV thing though.
CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
Fixed. :rotflmao:
Mr. Anonymous
Footballguy
bostonfred, that's just crazy talk!
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Sorry, I blacked out there for a minute. I think I was channeling Joe Bryant.
Wintermute
Footballguy
Can we get Larry back? The unintentional humor value of this thread has plummented.:votesforlarry:
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
Only if we all stop being so ignorant and closed-minded and listen to his rational arguments.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
You mean you don't think the canopy of water floating in the sky was rational?
I'd like to put more thought into how the Second Law of Thermodynamics proves there's a god. I must have read it wrong. Sneaky of them to code it into language that appears to merely involve the rules of heat transfer.Please, Larry, come back. Let's talk about the ancient people who kept fire-breathing dinosaurs as pets. I'll answer your questions this time, I promise.
C
CrossEyed
Guest
There is always water floating in the sky. It's called rain and snow.You mean you don't think the canopy of water floating in the sky was rational?
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
If we agree on that (admitting that you don't know everything, which no one does), then you admit to the possibility that what you believe (either being a theist or athiest) is wrong, then doesn't that make everyone agnostic?
Lonesome Dove
Footballguy
if we define agnostic as believing one thing but knowing that you could be wrong then yes.
Lonesome Dove
Footballguy
Why does it bother you? You don't seem to have the same problem with bb/sp doing this very thing in this thread?
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Lonesome Dove
Footballguy
I did this because I wanted to comment on lonesome dove in the movie thread with this user name. I thought it would add a little touch. I didn't feel the need to log out and log back in.
Lonesome Dove
Footballguy
you sure about that because when that trivia contest was run a while back everyone listed bb/sp and jericho/smoo as known alii
The most practical definition of agnosticism if your goal is differentiate it from atheism and theism is one of conviction or commitment of belief.A theist may not know if there is a god, but believes strongly that there is one.
A (strong) atheist may not know if there is a god, but believes strongly that there isn't one.
An agnostic does not know if there is a god, and therefore refuses to commit either way.
However, the act of non-committal means that there will be no worshipping or active believing being done of any gods (because that would be a form of commitment). That could be construed as weak atheism (no belief in gods).
If you want to stick with the true etymological definition, agnosticism is just the opposite of gnosticism, which is the belief that one possesses spiritual knowledge. Therefore, agnosticism would be the belief that one does not possess spiritual knowledge. This is the definition you've been using throughout this thread, but you if you're going to use it then you have to understand that it's not a mutually exclusive state from either atheism OR theism.
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Men-in-Cleats
Footballguy
No. An agnostic is straddling the fence between theism and athiesm. An agnostic believes that God could exist but hasn't decided whether he believes it or not while an athiest believes that you cannot eliminate the possiblity that God exists but believes that he doesn't. One is undecided while the other has made up his mind.As for Larry's theories, I have a question regarding dragons. Why haven't I heard of any Native American legends regarding dragons? I hear about ones regarding giant bears, regarding the buffalo, and so on but have never heard of any Native American dragon legends. Plenty of dinosaur bones in North America yet there seem to be a distinct lack of dragon legends. As for the "rest of the world" as you put it, how far back do the legends go? Do you know whether the dragon legends of middle age Europe predate the dragon legends of Eastern Asia? People from Europe had visited China for centuries by that time and it is quite possible that these stories had similar origins. Have you eliminated these possibilities prior to proclaiming that dragon legends provide evidence of whatever it was you were attempting to prove with them?
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
How can you be so sure?
Lonesome Dove
Footballguy
I was just replying to the post above when I responded with the agnostic definition above.You are asserting that one can be agnostic and athiestic but according to these denotation, I don't think that's correct.
I assert that disbelief is a commitment. And really the point I've been trying to make the whole thread. Why be an atheist. Why make the commitment of disbelief. Why not be agnostic?
Lonesome Dove
Footballguy
My apologies. That was probably it.
