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Driving Guys: what's the rule on this left turn? (1 Viewer)

Turning Left:

  • Stop in the middle at the crosswalk for the 'second set' of red lights

    Votes: 5 27.8%
  • Don't stop in the middle of the intersection on a left turn, the red lights aren't for you

    Votes: 13 72.2%

  • Total voters
    18

Philo

Footballguy
This is pretty difficult to describe, because this road is weird. There's a road in Burbank, CA which is a double-road. It's not a divided highway; a divided highway has the different travel directions separated by a median. On this road, there is traffic in both directions on both sides of the median. I don't know what the official term for this type of road is, if there is one. I guess if I knew what this is called, I could google the relevant California driving rules. :shrug:

Here's the Google Maps image of the relevant scene. You are facing West, to the left is South and to the right is North.

The road is Chandler Blvd, which is an East/West road separated by a pedestrian/bike path median (over what used to be industrial railroad tracks from back in the 40s or 50s). Now that it's a normal driving road, there is traffic going both Eastbound and Westbound on both the north and south halves of the road.

At this intersection, it crosses Buena Vista, a North/South street, at an intersection controlled by traffic lights.

The other half of Chandler Blvd, parallel to you on your left, also has traffic lights. They are timed to be offset so that the southern East/West road gets a green light, then Buena Vista gets a green light, then the northern half of Chandler gets a green light, then Buena Vista gets another green, and then back to the southern road and the cycle repeats.

There is a crosswalk in the middle of the road for pedestrians and bikers, and painted lines that seem to indicate a stop line. There's also a second set of stop lights: these lights have special lenses which prevent you from seeing what color they are until you've entered the intersection, that is, if you're already traveling south on Buena Vista and approaching this intersection, you'll only see the first set of lights (hanging over the middle of the intersection) until you actually enter the intersection, once you're over the first crosswalk you'll be able to see the second set of lights (hung over the far side of the intersection) which are presumably also green. It is possible, however, for the first light (holding back traffic on Buena Vista) to be red, while the farther lights they can't see are green for traffic in the middle of intersection.

Say you're on the north half of the road, traveling west, as portrayed in the above linked scene, and wish to turn left so as to be southbound on Buena Vista. The right lane here is for right turns only, the left lane is for driving straight or turning left. There is no specific left-turn lane, and there is no left-green arrow. You are in the leftmost lane for westerly traffic.

When you get a green light, and if there's no opposing traffic, how much of a left turn can you make if the 'second set' of lights (hanging over the southernmost edge of this intersection) is red? That is, you start to turn left, then in the middle of the intersection, at the crosswalk (where the gray SUV is in the above image), you see the lights in front of you are red. Do you stop before driving over the crosswalk and wait for the green? Or can you drive all the way through and complete the left turn, driving over the middle crosswalk in the process?

 
Not sure if the lights are for you or not but I think you should clear the crosswalk or it could be dangerous for pedestrians/bikers.

 
So, soccer moms scared to press the Input button on a TV remote are driving SUVs through that intersection. We need driverless cars and we need them now.

 
Without knowing the traffic patterns, if it's safe to keep going, I wouldn't immediately stop.

That said, what a ridiculously designed intersection(s).

 
This is pretty difficult to describe, because this road is weird. There's a road in Burbank, CA which is a double-road. It's not a divided highway; a divided highway has the different travel directions separated by a median. On this road, there is traffic in both directions on both sides of the median. I don't know what the official term for this type of road is, if there is one. I guess if I knew what this is called, I could google the relevant California driving rules. :shrug:

Here's the Google Maps image of the relevant scene. You are facing West, to the left is South and to the right is North.

The road is Chandler Blvd, which is an East/West road separated by a pedestrian/bike path median (over what used to be industrial railroad tracks from back in the 40s or 50s). Now that it's a normal driving road, there is traffic going both Eastbound and Westbound on both the north and south halves of the road.

At this intersection, it crosses Buena Vista, a North/South street, at an intersection controlled by traffic lights.

The other half of Chandler Blvd, parallel to you on your left, also has traffic lights. They are timed to be offset so that the southern East/West road gets a green light, then Buena Vista gets a green light, then the northern half of Chandler gets a green light, then Buena Vista gets another green, and then back to the southern road and the cycle repeats.

There is a crosswalk in the middle of the road for pedestrians and bikers, and painted lines that seem to indicate a stop line. There's also a second set of stop lights: these lights have special lenses which prevent you from seeing what color they are until you've entered the intersection, that is, if you're already traveling south on Buena Vista and approaching this intersection, you'll only see the first set of lights (hanging over the middle of the intersection) until you actually enter the intersection, once you're over the first crosswalk you'll be able to see the second set of lights (hung over the far side of the intersection) which are presumably also green. It is possible, however, for the first light (holding back traffic on Buena Vista) to be red, while the farther lights they can't see are green for traffic in the middle of intersection.

Say you're on the north half of the road, traveling west, as portrayed in the above linked scene, and wish to turn left so as to be southbound on Buena Vista. The right lane here is for right turns only, the left lane is for driving straight or turning left. There is no specific left-turn lane, and there is no left-green arrow. You are in the leftmost lane for westerly traffic.

When you get a green light, and if there's no opposing traffic, how much of a left turn can you make if the 'second set' of lights (hanging over the southernmost edge of this intersection) is red? That is, you start to turn left, then in the middle of the intersection, at the crosswalk (where the gray SUV is in the above image), you see the lights in front of you are red. Do you stop before driving over the crosswalk and wait for the green? Or can you drive all the way through and complete the left turn, driving over the middle crosswalk in the process?
Tldr

 
Jaysus said:
That's way too confusing, I'm out. Good luck with this.
:shrug:

Easier to look at the picture than explain it I guess. It's certainly a weird intersection. 

I've got my opinion but other drivers don't seem to agree. 

 
That seems like a cluster#### but without giving it a ton of thought I think I'd complete the turn and drive all the way through the intersection.  

 
First thing I would do is find out the law. 

I think in this case, I would stop a few feet back from where the black car is if the light is red. So it seems, I wouldn't do either of the two options you listed. 

Id also consider turning a few blocks earlier on Keystone and not deal with that nonsense. 

 
That road is weird however the one true rule of driving is that there should be zero cars in the intersection once the light turns green for me. If there are any cars in the intersection, they need to clear before any new traffic enters the intersection.

 
What a cluster. Only way I'm stopping in the middle is if the oncoming traffic has taken off so as to prevent me from driving on through. 

Are there traffic cams there? Seems like a good place for traffic cops to get quota numbers. 

 
That seems like a cluster#### but without giving it a ton of thought I think I'd complete the turn and drive all the way through the intersection.  
Yeah, it seems like the "middle" lights are only for people traveling on Buena Vista, since one of the Chandler streets could get the green light while a BV driver is crossing the other Chandler street.

If you're driving on either Chandler, and YOUR light is green, then it seems like you can assume that BOTH sets of BV lights are read, as is the other Chandler, and you can proceed with your turn (as long as there's no oncoming traffic on YOUR side of Chandler).

 
I'm probably just confused by this basic exercise but why would the "second set" of red lights not be for you?

I stop at red lights, crosswalks or not.

 
How many people have been killed at that intersection?  :loco:  

ETA: My answer is don't turn left. Make a series of right turns until you are going in the correct direction. HTH.

 
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It's the same a bit further down at the intersection with Hollywood Way.

Here a car is turning left. If the lights that are visible above the "Sizzler" sign on the left side of the picture are red, should he stop at the crosswalk or continue through?

Here's the view after the car turns. The lights in front of the car (center of the picture, above the white SUV) are green and he's driving through. If they were red, should he have stopped before the crosswalk in the marked lanes?

Interestingly, the city has proposed turning this stretch of road into a standard divided highway, with eastbound traffic all on one side and westbound traffic on the other. Residents shoot down the suggestion every time, sometimes going door-to-door to get petitions signed. The reason: The intersections are so confusing that no one speeds on these roads. They have 1/10th the accidents that the next parallel road has on the same stretch.

 
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It's a six-way intersection with seven pairs of lights and five crosswalks. What about that is confusing?

I just drove through it again on my way to work, and believe I have the definitive answer.

 
If I pull forward into the intersection, wait for oncoming traffic to clear, then wheel around and turn left, this is what I see.

And if those lights are red, I stop, and I believe that is correct. My initial reasoning was: "Why would the city put in a second set of lights, that you couldn't see until you were already in the intersection, if they didn't intend for you to stop in the middle?"

Here's what happened today: I was the second car in line to turn left, south on Buena Vista, while traffic already on Buena Vista had a green light. Several pedestrians and a cyclist were waiting at the crosswalk to continue the bike path. Then, our side of Chandler got a green light at the same time as the parallel crosswalk got a walk sign. The "second set" of lights was red. The car in front of me waited for pedestrians to clear, then drove through over the crosswalk (through the second red light). I stopped before the crosswalk and waited. There were only a few seconds left on the walk sign. As soon as it turned to "Don't Walk", the 'second set' of lights on the far side of the intersection turned green, allowing me to go. Meanwhile, the cars behind me on Buena Vista were still stopped. They still had a red light.

It seems obvious to me that the middle was being cleared of left-turning cars like me, before the rest of the north/south traffic was allowed through. I think the intention is that cars turning left across the middle are supposed to wait for the pedestrian walk sign to turn off before progressing. We're supposed to queue up and wait before driving over the middle crosswalk.

However, I'm the only one I've ever seen do this. No one else waits. The car in front of me today blew through that second set of red lights. Last week, I waited, and the car behind me drove on the other side of the street to get around me and go through the intersection. :shrug:

Guess it's just really confusing to people, or, that people aren't used to seeing another set of lights once they start a left turn.

 
Sounds like, basically, once you've turned left you aren't on Chandler anymore.  You're on BV between the two Chandlers and BV has a stop light there...so you should stop if it's red. Right?

 
Philo said:
It's a six-way intersection with seven pairs of lights and five crosswalks. What about that is confusing?

I just drove through it again on my way to work, and believe I have the definitive answer.
text and barrel right through whatever poor soul happens to be there?

 
Sounds like, basically, once you've turned left you aren't on Chandler anymore.  You're on BV between the two Chandlers and BV has a stop light there...so you should stop if it's red. Right?
that was my initial thought but there seems to be barely room for one car without blocking the bikers.  DO NOT BLOCK THE BIKERS.

 
pretty sure the answer is to make a U-turn at keystone. onward to Victory!

 
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pull a Boston & drive down the left sidewalk & claim you are a pedestrian (thus under CA law giving you unlimited right of way for life... short as it may be).

 
is the second set only tied to the crosswalk lights? In other words, does the second set only turn red when the Walk signal is on?


I haven't driven through and noticed the crosswalk signals enough times to be sure, but, I haven't yet had a trip through that would disprove the hypothesis that they are.

 
I clipped a biker once in a similar situation.  Dude came way out of the designated bike lane into the road. Tried to hop in the left lane to avoid him but there was a car in the intersection waiting to turn so I couldn't.  Not much else I could have done so I just kept driving.  I'm sure that the biker was probably furious with me but he should be upset with the guy parked in the intersection. 

 

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