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End of the Age of Running QBs in NFL? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter just_want_2_win
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bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Russell Wilson is running pretty well
MattFancy
Footballguy
The thing is RG3 didn't get hurt in 2012 on a running play. His 1st injury in the Ravens game was on a scramble when he forced from the pocket and slid awkwardly and Ngata caught his knee. The 2nd injury in 2012 was on a drop back when his knee just gave out. His injury this season he was rolling out and just came down weird on his ankle after he threw the ball. None of his injuries came off a QB draw or read option. I hate when people try to say that.
lod01
Footballguy
He runs different. When he runs, he is looking downfield for the open receiver. The toss to Hefret or whatever his name is, a couple weeks back, is a prime example. Running QB, don't see that open receiver.
On first-and-15 from the Arizona 20-yard line, quarterback Russell Wilson was forced out of the pocket and saw both of his tight ends — Helfet and Tony Moeaki — running in the flat. He dumped the ball to Helfet, who used blocking from Moeaki to make a charge for the end zone.
“It was kind of a broken play,” Helfet said. “He was leading for me and it worked out just perfect.”
Cam doesn't see these guys, RG 3 doesn't see these guys.
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Boston
Footballguy
I think the difference is like Rodgers he's a QB who can run not a running QB...
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
That doesn't mean that the problem is with quarterbacks running. The problem is with those who do not have accuracy.
Having the ability to run plus the accuracy is what everyone is looking for. Maybe some people put too much weight on the running and assumed it could overshadow throwing challenges, but I don't know why it means that a reversion to pocket quarterbacks necessarily. It still comes down to picking the right guys.
The running abilities of Rodgers and Wilson certainly help them be who they are, and to a smaller extent even a guy like Roethlisberger with his ability to move.
Jerry Curl
Footballguy
Luck, Tannehill and even Bortles have some good legs. QBs that can run are a good advntage, running QBs have never really been an era.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
The same thing could be said about Jeff George or countless other guys over the years and it has nothing to due with the ability to run. Maybe an ability to run makes some of these guys less likely to really work on the passing game like they need to, but I still think it's about the individual player, not the running. As if every pocket QB before was always good. Many are terrible for other reasons.
zamboni
Footballguy
Agreed.
The elite pure-pocket guys like Manning, Brees and Brady are super accurate and smart, but seem to be the old guard in terms of what NFL GMs are looking for.
It seems like the "new breed" of successful QBs are a hybrid - those that are very accurate passers, but also nimble enough to make things happen with their legs rather than force the ball or throw it away. Thinking of Rodgers, Luck, maybe Wilson in the few occasions he actually throws the ball. Time will tell if guys like Bortles, Bridgewater, Tannehill and the like move up the ranks.
Adam Harstad
Moderator
If we have a definition of "running QB" that excludes a guy who is 15th in the entire NFL in rushing yardage- a guy who has rushed for more yards than the leading rusher on more than half of the franchises in the entire NFL- I would humbly suggest we need to rethink the definition of "running QB" that we are using. Because any definition of "running QB" that does not include Russell Wilson is pretty much DOA.
Here is a complete list of seasons in NFL history where a QB has averaged more rushing yards per game than Wilson has been putting up: Bobby Douglas '72, Mike Vick '06, Mike Vick '04, Randall Cunningham '90. That's it. The rest of the top 10 includes two more Vick seasons, an RGIII season, a Terrelle Pryor season, and a Tim Tebow season. Go 20 deep and you add Cam Newton, Billy Kilmer, Donovan McNabb, and Steve McNair. This is pretty much a "who's who" of running QBs through history.
MarcO
Footballguy
no joke. There have been games this year where Seattle has opened the game with Wilson running the read option and keeping on most. If that's a weakness they think they can exploit or use to set up other things later on, they definitely use Wilson as a runner.Adam Harstad said:
jurb26
Footballguy
Tannehill is the only one of those guys to run as a primary function of his offense. Mia utilizes the QB zone read play a fair amount. The other guys run to extend the play and look for passing opportunities primarily. They are more like A. Rodgers/Roethlisberger than anything else in that regard.Jerry Curl said:
Futz
Footballguy
I think when a QB and it's offense relies on the QB's ability to run the ball that it's a recipe for a short lived career. Once defenses got film on Cam, RGIII etc... they became defensible and started absorbing way too many hits and exposed them as average to below average pocket QBs.
Guys like Luck and Wilson simply don't take the hits because a lot of their running is just instinctual when the play breaks down. Wilson certainly has designed runs but it's the infrequency and misdirection of some creative play calling that keep him from getting killed.
Guys like Luck and Wilson simply don't take the hits because a lot of their running is just instinctual when the play breaks down. Wilson certainly has designed runs but it's the infrequency and misdirection of some creative play calling that keep him from getting killed.
Ted Mullins
Footballguy
The concussion RG3 had that year vs the Falcons was on a scramble as well. There's a very reasonable argument that they should have ran him way less once he was visibly hurt, but it's frequently portrayed that he was hurt on a bunch of designed runs and that's not the case. What they ran that year was most likely not sustainable long term but it didn't help that Griffin does such a poor job protecting himself.MattFancy said:
I think a lot of the running QBs struggle because they don't ever really develop a lot of the skills that a typical drop back passer develops - if you are accustomed to looking at your first read or two and then running, it's probably pretty hard to have to try to break that habit and go through more reads for the first time at the NFL level. I think it's more about what they've been asked to do and able to get away with in high school and college as opposed to being able to pass and being able to run being mutually exclusive.
Not necessarily the article in the OP, but similar articles I have seen are flexible about who is a "running" or "pocket" qb as well - Rodgers has had a bunch of 250-350 yard rushing seasons and Luck runs a good bit as well. Their rushing stats are often closer to what Wilson does than a typical Brady or Manning year.
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thriftyrocker
Footballguy
Let's fuel this thinking so I can get Mariota in the 2nd in a ton of drafts next year.
Koya
Footballguy
The fact that the league is SO pass heavy and rules are SO pass friendly puts an emphasis on just that - passing. You don't need a running QB threat to open things up downfield. You need good o-line protection and not too much else. The risk of running your QB and then having a crap backup take the reigns is simply not worth the upside anymore.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
The Big 10lod01 said:
Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
Is this the PC way to say black QBs aren't getting it done anymore?
mr roboto
Footballguy
Guys who can run if need be, who can roll out, keep their eyes downfield, pick up a few yards if there's room in front of them - those guys are still very valuable. Bortles, Teddy, Wilson, Luck, Rodgers. Statues in the pocket need to be super accurate and smart (Brady, Manning).
Flacco is really an interesting case. Not that mobile, great arm, not terribly efficient. He's also being asked to take far less snaps out of the gun than any other QB.
Kaep, Cam, Manziel and RG3 still have major questions regarding reading defenses and accuracy. I think there is something to be said for the proliferation of spread and read option systems in CFB and the effect on those QBs preparation for the NFL.
Flacco is really an interesting case. Not that mobile, great arm, not terribly efficient. He's also being asked to take far less snaps out of the gun than any other QB.
Kaep, Cam, Manziel and RG3 still have major questions regarding reading defenses and accuracy. I think there is something to be said for the proliferation of spread and read option systems in CFB and the effect on those QBs preparation for the NFL.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
So that is right where your mind goes when discussing this particular football subject. Not a surprise coming from you.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Running needs to supplement and compliment effective throwing, not replace. That's the difference between the Rodgers, Lucks and Wilsons and the rest. A great example is early vs late Steve Young.
Running QBs aren't going away, they're just weeding out the ones that can't throw effectively and consistently. This process will continue over time and one day we'll see a guy with Cam's physicals and Rodgers' brain. Luck is close to that guy already, but not quite there rushing. Hell, Rodgers IS that guy, just not as physically strong as Cam/Luck.
Running QBs aren't going away, they're just weeding out the ones that can't throw effectively and consistently. This process will continue over time and one day we'll see a guy with Cam's physicals and Rodgers' brain. Luck is close to that guy already, but not quite there rushing. Hell, Rodgers IS that guy, just not as physically strong as Cam/Luck.
Koya
Footballguy
Thought had not even crossed my mind.
I guess some (most?) folks have moved beyond that small minded view?
LawFitz
Footballguy
Russ Wilson is black and no one is writing him off. He's probably thought of by many/most as a future elite QB, if anything.Thought had not even crossed my mind.
I guess some (most?) folks have moved beyond that small minded view?
jasvic
Footballguy
Opposite end of the spectrum is Tim Tebow. Proving that QBs need to be able to pass first, regardless of race.Russ Wilson is black and no one is writing him off. He's probably thought of by many/most as a future elite QB, if anything.Thought had not even crossed my mind.
I guess some (most?) folks have moved beyond that small minded view?
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I Am the Stig
Footballguy
This whole post sums it up. Great scrambling abilities are not required for the job, passing is.
If you can run great, but it is really a bonus. The running abilities have often times masked passing deficiencies. Further more, developing offenses around the running skill set doesn't teach these kids how to read a defense conventionally and they are well behind the curve.
Every pass not thrown is one less repetition, one less opportunity to learn from mistakes.
Boston
Footballguy
I guess we disagree with what a running QB means...when I think of a running QB I think of a guy who's legs come before his arm...when I think of a QB who can run I think of a guy who's arm comes before his legs...that doesn't mean he doesn't run but it does mean he can be very effective whether he runs or doesn't run...Adam Harstad said:
steelers1080
Footballguy
It's kinda weird that people pretend Mariota isn't a running QB and talk him up as the #1 QB and in the same breath say running QBs are done.
mr roboto
Footballguy
He seems to keep his eyes down field and look to pass vs tuck and run at any opportunity. Kinda like Russel.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Exactly.
A running QB is a QB who runs to cover up his throwing deficiencies - think Vick, Kapernick, G.Smith, Newton, Tebow, RG3 - their first instinct is to want to run the ball instead of throw it
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LargeMouthBass
Footballguy
Aaron Rodgers could rush for 50+ yards per game if he really wanted to...
Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
Carolina having the only Oline ranked in both the bottom 5 in both pass and run blocking and Cam's offseason ankle surgery are probably bigger factors than team mysteriously "getting film" on a player in his 4th season. He's certainly regressed as a passer but those other two issues plus him losing his entire receiving corps are more likely culprits than DCs accross the league just suddenly figuring out how to beat a 4th year player.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Exactly. Rushing QB's is a fairly new trend... running QB's (QB's that have scrambling ability) have been around forever, and always will be.
I agree with Polian in that it is coming to an end. Makes for a short career and probably ######s their development as a downfield passer.
lod01
Footballguy
Or you could state it like this> A couple of guys who came in with no NFL game film on their playing style, who lit it up out of the gate, and then started fizzling, getting worse weekly and yearly.
EBF
Footballguy
We've seen quite a few athletic QBs come into the league over the last decade or so, make a big early splash with their running ability, and then regress to mediocrity (or worse) as teams figure them out. Mike Vick was a consensus first round dynasty pick after his first full season as a starter. Vince Young was a consensus top 10 dynasty QB after his rookie year. More recently, Newton, Griffin, and Kaepernick have been badly overrated. Cam's case is a little different because he put together more than one strong FF season before falling off, but the general rule here seems clear: draft QBs based on their passing ability, not their running skills. The guys who have achieved sustained elite success in recent seasons (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning) are all elite passers who can thrive without relying on their legs.
This is something to think about before you go overboard with Johnny Manziel if he breaks a few amazing runs or Marcus Mariota if someone is foolish enough to make him a top three pick. Mobility is important, but much of what made those guys stars in college is virtually irrelevant with regards to their long term NFL performance.
This is something to think about before you go overboard with Johnny Manziel if he breaks a few amazing runs or Marcus Mariota if someone is foolish enough to make him a top three pick. Mobility is important, but much of what made those guys stars in college is virtually irrelevant with regards to their long term NFL performance.
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Maelstrom
Footballguy
Surprised this didn't get more love. It isn't really about running ability. It's about the death of taking an ultra-athletic QB who has no ability to read the defense or understand the playbook, and thinking that the athleticism trumps QB smarts on the field. QBs who can read the field, understand the playbook and can also run if necessary is really the holy grail, but you're going to see a shift back to QB smarts being more important than pure athleticism. I'll take a smart QB (football smart, not book smart) with the ability to make all the necessary throws over the guy that can run the 4.4-40 and throw the ball 80 yards downfield but may never learn to read a blitz.
Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
Maelstrom
Footballguy
That's why the qualification about "football smarts". Ponder is very intelligent, but he doesn't have the football smarts when the game in underway. He doesn't process the play quick enough, it seems like it never "sped up" for him.
mr roboto
Footballguy
And Manning. What's your point? Ponder was considered a reach when drafted and isn't very quick with his egg head on the field.
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Adam Harstad
Moderator
I think then we start to get into tautologies. "Running QBs" will never succeed in the NFL if we strictly limit the definition of "running QBs" to "guys who can't/don't pass". Russell Wilson is 19th in the NFL in passing yards, but 15th in the NFL in rushing yards. He is having one of the five most prolific rushing seasons in NFL history. I'll again say that if he doesn't qualify as a "running QB", then no one does. Literally three men in history have rushed for more yards per game from the QB position.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Here's what I show for the 2007-2014 (Total and Yds per QB):
2007 - 4080 - 63.75
2008 - 4577 - 77.58
2009 - 4567 - 77.41
2010 - 5687 - 96.39
2011 - 5687 - 103.20
2012 - 6749 - 132.33
2013 - 7427 - 137.54
2014 - 4782 - 97.59
gianmarco
Footballguy
Exactly. Pretty short memories if there are folks who think Cam can't throw the ball effectively. He threw for over 4000 yards as a rookie and followed that up with 3900 yards with 7.8 and 8.0 y/a. He was top 10 in passing yards as a rookie. He had the same y/a as Peyton (and better than any other QBs in the top of the league) in his second year.
If you've watched him play this year, he has clearly been hampered by his healing ankle injury and atrocious o-line play.
I have no concerns about Cam's ability to throw the football in the NFL.
cstu
Footballguy
In 2011, he had a 8.55 YPA and averaged 346 yards per game the first 4 games and 7.55 YPA and 222 yards per game the rest of the season.
He started out hot again in 2012 with 9.47 YPA the first 4 games and 7.53 YPA the rest of the season.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I'd love to see some actual scramble statistics, but I think the narrative that Wilson scrambles to pass while guys like Kaepernick and Newton scramble to run is completely fabricated.
Wilson is currently 1st in the NFL in rushing yards among QBs (on pace to finish top 5 all-time) and 19th in passing yards. His rushing pace for this year (905yds) blows Newton (741) or Kaep's (524) career bests out of the water, much less what they're doing this year.
More than anything though, I just don't see how the math would work out. Seattle calls fewer designed QB run plays than Carolina or SF, and calls fewer dropback passing plays (scramble opportunities) than either of those teams as well. That means, even if Wilson scrambles to run equally as often as those two guys he should still have significantly fewer rushing attempts. Yet, he actually has MORE rushing attempts. The only missing piece that could make up those extra attempts is that Wilson has not only more scrambled to run more than those guys, but he's done it a LOT more.
Wilson is currently 1st in the NFL in rushing yards among QBs (on pace to finish top 5 all-time) and 19th in passing yards. His rushing pace for this year (905yds) blows Newton (741) or Kaep's (524) career bests out of the water, much less what they're doing this year.
More than anything though, I just don't see how the math would work out. Seattle calls fewer designed QB run plays than Carolina or SF, and calls fewer dropback passing plays (scramble opportunities) than either of those teams as well. That means, even if Wilson scrambles to run equally as often as those two guys he should still have significantly fewer rushing attempts. Yet, he actually has MORE rushing attempts. The only missing piece that could make up those extra attempts is that Wilson has not only more scrambled to run more than those guys, but he's done it a LOT more.
I Am the Stig
Footballguy
The difference is Wilson is not, as you pointed out, getting the designed runs. He is dropping back, making his reads and then running. Wilson is being used more conventionally but he is relying on his running to protect the ball. Eventually though, he is going to have to start learning how to make the tough throws. He will eventually start to do that as he grows and learns and uses his legs less.
