Government Response To The Coronavirus (3 Viewers)

[derek245583]

Interesting. My work sent out an email saying they are determining next steps.

If this is up to the employer then what is the issue?

Ours said waiting for department of labor to finalize

 

[The General]

Ours said waiting for department of labor to finalize

Went back and read ours and it said something to the effect that we will share a plan as we learn more. We were already under very restrictive RTO policies, very limited travel tied to case numbers, etc. It was beginning to lighten up then this Delta #### came up.

 

[tonydead]

"The American way" is what we make it as a collective. The vision for the nation that I would support and uphold differs specifically on the bolded point.

Now you're just making stuff up.  

 

[jm192]

But let's continue this line of thinking anyway.  Who is determining if it is unsafe or not?

Doctors, scientists, Pharmacists.

5.2 billion doses given world wide.  We have the safety data.  

 

[tonydead]

Doctors, scientists, Pharmacists.

5.2 billion doses given world wide.  We have the safety data.  

Hint - Looking for a name or organization.  

 

[jm192]

The CDC is one organization.  

Now that I've answered the question to your standards--you'll move the goal posts "LOL THE CDC, LIKE I TRUST THEM."

 

[moleculo]

Coercion is fine in some situations.  For example, we coerce people not to go around punching other people in the face -- do that, and an agent of the state will show up to take you into custody.  And that's good, because punching people in the face violates their rights and the government exists for the express purpose of defending my rights against encroachment by others.

Notice how I defended coercion there by explicitly arguing for why coercion is justified.  I didn't try to deny that I was coercing anybody.

just trying to get ahead of the very silly argument that coercion = bullying and something the government should not be doing.

 

[tonydead]

The CDC is one organization.  

Now that I've answered the question to your standards--you'll move the goal posts "LOL THE CDC, LIKE I TRUST THEM."

ummmm, right, so back to the original discussion you jumped into the middle of:

If the CDC is determining it's safety @fatguyinalittlecoat would choose the option to have the government decide for him when and what shots to get because his only qualifier was that it be safe.  

 

[beer 30]

For the record, my company (about 15,000 employees) implemented this a few weeks ago via the use of a survey with three questions on it. It was mandated that the survey was taken.

1. Vaccinated

2. Not vaccinated

3. Prefer not to say

2 & 3 were treated as unvaccinated. This meant you had to wear a mask at all times and test weekly if you were identified as a frequent traveler. Most everyone is compliant but there has certainly been grumbling. This move by the government is going to make it tough on us because our company is about 45% vax'd right now. We're not laying off 8,250, like most we are struggling to fill open job opportunities now. I'm also sure we aren't paying that fine.

This is going to jack up a lot of companies out there already struggling to fill job openings.

 

[jm192]

ummmm, right, so back to the original discussion you jumped into the middle of:

If the CDC is determining it's safety @fatguyinalittlecoat would choose the option to have the government decide for him when and what shots to get because his only qualifier was that it be safe.  

You can STILL choose for yourself.  You just may be out of a job.  

If this little jab that will keep you from literally dying is worth dying on the hill of your job--stand to your convictions.  

 

[jm192]

ummmm, right, so back to the original discussion you jumped into the middle of:

If the CDC is determining it's safety @fatguyinalittlecoat would choose the option to have the government decide for him when and what shots to get because his only qualifier was that it be safe.  

I think this is how it's always worked, right?

The CDC says a vaccine is safe and effective at preventing disease x.  Kids are require to get it for school.  Health care workers are required to get it to work at hospitals and nursing homes.  

Why are you upset about it now?

Seems like a silly argument.

 

[-fish-]

I think this is how it's always worked, right?

The CDC says a vaccine is safe and effective at preventing disease x.  Kids are require to get it for school.  Health care workers are required to get it to work at hospitals and nursing homes.  

Why are you upset about it now?

Seems like a silly argument.

He has no clue.   "Rocket scientist" who doesn't understand anything about viruses or vaccines.   Don't validate his ridiculous and uninformed opinions.  It's a waste of time.

 

[tonydead]

He has no clue.   "Rocket scientist" who doesn't understand anything about viruses or vaccines.   Don't validate his ridiculous and uninformed opinions.  It's a waste of time.

Typical response in here when your logic doesn't hold up to scrutiny.  

 

[Rich Conway]

It's not jail, but the form of the argument is the same.  "I'm not forcing you to do X, I'm just making it super-inconvenient for you not to X because I really want you to do X."  That's still coercion    

While this is true, that's not an argument that coercion is necessarily and always bad or wrong.  Our tax code is probably 90% coercion.  The mortgage interest deduction is coercion.  Sin taxes are a form of coercion.  Existing vaccine mandates in schools and the military are coercion.

Edit: should have kept reading.

 

[tonydead]

You can STILL choose for yourself.  You just may be out of a job.  

If this little jab that will keep you from literally dying is worth dying on the hill of your job--stand to your convictions.  

Maybe you should read the entire conversation you jumped in the middle of?

I’m not giving away any freedoms, I’m already vaccinated.

This was the first post I responded to.  It's premise is that you loose your freedom.  

 

[Weebs210]

Is the mandate for private sector or does it also cover public companies?

 

[tonydead]

I think this is how it's always worked, right?

The CDC says a vaccine is safe and effective at preventing disease x.  Kids are require to get it for school.  Health care workers are required to get it to work at hospitals and nursing homes.  

Why are you upset about it now?

Seems like a silly argument.

No.  Vaccines have never been mandated through the Labor Department for all Companies with 100 or more employees.

Federal jobs and public schools, sure, ok. 

Who mandates it to work in hospitals?  

 

[jm192]

Maybe you should read the entire conversation you jumped in the middle of?

This was the first post I responded to.  It's premise is that you loose your freedom.  

You loose it?

You sit on here and argue medicine and vaccines like you're some sort of genius expert, and you're word you're going to LOOSE your freedoms?  Give me a break.

 

[-fish-]

Typical response in here when your logic doesn't hold up to scrutiny.  

Would you like me to bump your posts about how vaccines ended the pandemic and we shouldn't worry about "varrients"?  That's the funny part... it's easy to search for your ignorant posts because you can't spell basic words.   

Your view on the virus are dangerously misinformed.  Nobody should take you seriously. It's time for people to stop pretending that views like yours should be treated as valid and wasting time on your conspiracy theories and garbage science.   And stop following me around.  I get that you'll report me if I call you what you are, but it's really pathetic.   Grow up.   

@Joe Bryant This is exactly what we were discussing.  We all see this.  It's frustrating that your moderators allow this to continue.

 

[tonydead]

You loose it?

You sit on here and argue medicine and vaccines like you're some sort of genius expert, and you're word you're going to LOOSE your freedoms?  Give me a break.

I'm not worried. 

I'm vaccinated.

It's a new precedent.  If you are ok with this you must be ok with it in the future.  Anytime the government says get a shot you get in line.

 

[-fish-]

You loose it?

You sit on here and argue medicine and vaccines like you're some sort of genius expert, and you're word you're going to LOOSE your freedoms?  Give me a break.

He's a rocket scientist!

 

[Insein]

For the record, my company (about 15,000 employees) implemented this a few weeks ago via the use of a survey with three questions on it. It was mandated that the survey was taken.

1. Vaccinated

2. Not vaccinated

3. Prefer not to say

2 & 3 were treated as unvaccinated. This meant you had to wear a mask at all times and test weekly if you were identified as a frequent traveler. Most everyone is compliant but there has certainly been grumbling. This move by the government is going to make it tough on us because our company is about 45% vax'd right now. We're not laying off 8,250, like most we are struggling to fill open job opportunities now. I'm also sure we aren't paying that fine.

This is going to jack up a lot of companies out there already struggling to fill job openings.

So if you answered 1 did they require proof?

 

[-fish-]

For the record, my company (about 15,000 employees) implemented this a few weeks ago via the use of a survey with three questions on it. It was mandated that the survey was taken.

1. Vaccinated

2. Not vaccinated

3. Prefer not to say

2 & 3 were treated as unvaccinated. This meant you had to wear a mask at all times and test weekly if you were identified as a frequent traveler. Most everyone is compliant but there has certainly been grumbling. This move by the government is going to make it tough on us because our company is about 45% vax'd right now. We're not laying off 8,250, like most we are struggling to fill open job opportunities now. I'm also sure we aren't paying that fine.

This is going to jack up a lot of companies out there already struggling to fill job openings.

Or they could just get vaccinated.   

 

[CrossEyed2]

Haven't the authorities stated that getting the vaccine doesn't prevent someone from getting or transmitting the virus, it only prevents serious illness/death?

If that is the case, why the push to mandate it for anyone else? Just let us get sick and die if you are protected. I'm not following the logic here. 

 

[Max Power]

The Biden administration is bracing for a number of lawsuits from governors and businesses around the country after President Joe Biden announced new Wuhan coronavirus vaccine mandates and weekly testing requirements, which impact 100 million Americans, on Thursday afternoon. 

After the mandate was announced, White House Chief of Staff Ron Klein took to Twitter in hopes of finding praise on the issue. While he was there, he retweeted MSNBC host Stephanie Ruhle, who said using OSHA to implement the mandate was the "ultimate work-around." 

George Washington University Law Professor Jonathan Turley, noticed and is explaining how Klain just created a headache for the administration.

"In the law, it is called an admission against interest or an out-of-court statement by a party that, when uttered, is against the party’s pecuniary, proprietary, or penal interests. In politics, it is called just dumb. White House chief of staff Ronald Klain offered a doozy this week when he admitted that the announced use of the authority of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) for a vaccine mandate was a mere 'work around' of the constitutional limit imposed on the federal government," Turley writes on his website. "The problem is that the thing being 'worked around' is the Constitution. Courts will now be asked to ignore the admission and uphold a self-admitted evasion of constitutional protections."

"The retweet by Klain will not be determinative in this case but it will be heavily referenced by challengers. He was saying the quiet part out loud.  However, the real question is why the Administration would bring a case that is unnecessary to litigate a theory that is at best novel and untested. For a department known for its reluctance to bring such test cases to avoid negative precedent, the declaratory judgment says more about the political than legal priorities of the Administration," he continued. 

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2021/09/10/law-professor-points-out-how-bidens-chief-of-staff-may-have-already-blown-the-vaccine-mandate-n2595688

Interesting take here.

 

[tonydead]

Would you like me to bump your posts about how vaccines ended the pandemic and we shouldn't worry about "varrients"?  That's the funny part... it's easy to search for your ignorant posts because you can't spell basic words.   

Your view on the virus are dangerously misinformed.  Nobody should take you seriously. It's time for people to stop pretending that views like yours should be treated as valid and wasting time on your conspiracy theories and garbage science.   And stop following me around.  I get that you'll report me if I call you what you are, but it's really pathetic.   Grow up.   

@Joe Bryant This is exactly what we were discussing.  We all see this.  It's frustrating that your moderators allow this to continue.

Bump any post you want.  I'm willing to defend anything that I may have said.

I'm not worried about the variants at all.  The vaccines have been shown to be effective against the new variants.  I'm fully vaccinated, why would I be worried?   The vaccines are readily available to anyone that wants it.  Masks and restrictions at this point are especially dumb and there are arguments they were dumb originally.   If you don't want to discuss any of that feel free not to.  Or bump some posts, I don't care.

 

[tonydead]

He's a rocket scientist!

Fact  

 

[Weebs210]

Is the mandate for private sector or does it also cover public companies?

Someone smarter then me answer please

 

[Rich Conway]

Haven't the authorities stated that getting the vaccine doesn't prevent someone from getting or transmitting the virus, it only prevents serious illness/death?

If that is the case, why the push to mandate it for anyone else? Just let us get sick and die if you are protected. I'm not following the logic here. 

While vaccinated people can be infected and can transmit the virus to others, the rate at which both of these things occur is significantly lower in vaxxed people than unvaxxed.

An analogy would be that sober drivers can have accidents, but we still only outlaw drunk driving.

 

[Insein]

Haven't the authorities stated that getting the vaccine doesn't prevent someone from getting or transmitting the virus, it only prevents serious illness/death?

If that is the case, why the push to mandate it for anyone else? Just let us get sick and die if you are protected. I'm not following the logic here. 

Because they've been convinced that their vaccine doesn't work unless everyone gets it even though that's never been how vaccines work. 

 

[Bogeys]

Bump any post you want.  I'm willing to defend anything that I may have said.

I'm not worried about the variants at all.  The vaccines have been shown to be effective against the new variants.  I'm fully vaccinated, why would I be worried?   The vaccines are readily available to anyone that wants it.  Masks and restrictions at this point are especially dumb and there are arguments they were dumb originally.   If you don't want to discuss any of that feel free not to.  Or bump some posts, I don't care.

Bump

 

[CrossEyed2]

Here's one of the reasons that some of us simply don't like to take pharmaceutical products at all, let alone have them mandated. You may disagree with our reasoning, but please stop pretending that we don't have any facts to back up our personal decisions:

ONE: Epidemiologically, appropriately prescribed, prescription drugs are the fourth leading cause of death, tied with stroke at about 2,460 deaths each week in the United States. About 330,000 patients die each year from prescription drugs in the United States and Europe. They [the drugs] cause an epidemic of about 20 times more hospitalizations [6.6 million annually], as well as falls, road accidents, and [annually] about 80 million medically minor problems such as pains, discomforts, and dysfunctions that hobble productivity or the ability to care for others. Deaths and adverse effects from overmedication, errors, and self-medication would increase these figures.” (ASA publication, “Footnotes,” November 2014)

TWO: Journal of the American Medical Association, April 15, 1998: “Incidence of Adverse Drug Reactions in Hospitalized Patients.”

The authors, led by Jason Lazarou, culled 39 previous studies on patients in hospitals. These patients, who received drugs in hospitals, or were admitted to hospitals because they were suffering from the drugs doctors had given them, met the following fate:

Every year, in the US, between 76,000 and 137,000 hospitalized patients die as a direct result of the drugs.

Beyond that, every year 2.2 million hospitalized patients experience serious adverse reactions to the drugs.

The authors write: “...Our study on ADRs [Adverse Drug Reactions], which excludes medication errors, had a different objective: to show that there are a large number of ADRs even when the drugs are properly prescribed and administered.”

So this study had nothing to do with doctor errors, nurse errors, or improper combining of drugs. And it only counted people killed or maimed who were admitted to hospitals. It didn't begin to tally all the people taking pharmaceuticals who died as consequence of the drugs, at home.

THREE: July 26, 2000, Journal of the American Medical Association; author, Dr. Barbara Starfield, revered public health expert at the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health; “Is US health really the best in the world?”

Starfield reported that the US medical system kills 225,000 Americans per year. 106,000 as a result of FDA-approved medical drugs, and 119,000 as a result of mistreatment and errors in hospitals. Extrapolate the numbers to a decade: that’s 2.25 million deaths. You might want to read that last number again.

I interviewed Starfield in 2009. I asked her whether she was aware of any overall effort by the US government to eliminate this holocaust. She answered a resounding NO. She also said her estimate of medically caused deaths in America was on the conservative side.

FOUR: BMJ June 7, 2012 (BMJ 2012:344:e3989). Author, Jeanne Lenzer. Lenzer refers to a report by the Institute for Safe Medication Practices: “It [the Institute] calculated that in 2011 prescription drugs were associated with two to four million people in the US experiencing ‘serious, disabling, or fatal injuries, including 128,000 deaths.’”

The report called this “one of the most significant perils to humans resulting from human activity.”

The report was compiled by outside researchers who went into the FDA’s own database of “serious adverse [medical-drug] events.”

Therefore, to say the FDA isn’t aware of this finding would be absurd. The FDA knows. The FDA knows and it isn’t saying anything about it, because the FDA certifies, as safe and effective, all the medical drugs that are routinely maiming and killing Americans. Every public health agency knows the truth.

 

[CrossEyed2]

While vaccinated people can be infected and can transmit the virus to others, the rate at which both of these things occur is significantly lower in vaxxed people than unvaxxed.

An analogy would be that sober drivers can have accidents, but we still only outlaw drunk driving.

But, again, if your vaccine protects you from even serious illness, let alone death, why worry about it?

 

[Snotbubbles]

Is the mandate for private sector or does it also cover public companies?

From what I understand, any company with 100+ employees must comply.

 

[-fish-]

Haven't the authorities stated that getting the vaccine doesn't prevent someone from getting or transmitting the virus, it only prevents serious illness/death?

If that is the case, why the push to mandate it for anyone else? Just let us get sick and die if you are protected. I'm not following the logic here. 

As an example, Georgia ICU beds are over 90% full right now due to COVID patients.   At this point, they are reporting that all of the hospitalized cases are unvaccinated.   Due to the fact that the hospitals are overrun, they are not able to perform any non-emergency surgeries.   So because of misinformed, selfish unvaccinated people, other people are being harmed. 

Additionally, this petrie dish of unvaccinated people allows variants to develop, which may make it worse for everyone.  

If people that make stupid decisions would just get sick and die, I'd be ok with it.  But that's not how it works.  These foolish decisions have a negative effect on everyone else.  

 

[jm192]

But, again, if your vaccine protects you from even serious illness, let alone death, why worry about it?

If your seatbelt protects you from car accidents, why do we punish drunk drivers?

 

[-fish-]

Is the mandate for private sector or does it also cover public companies?

Someone smarter then me answer please

It's going through OSHA, so it applies to all companies with 100+ employees.

 

[CrossEyed2]

As an example, Georgia ICU beds are over 90% full right now due to COVID patients.   At this point, they are reporting that all of the hospitalized cases are unvaccinated.   Due to the fact that the hospitals are overrun, they are not able to perform any non-emergency surgeries.   So because of misinformed, selfish unvaccinated people, other people are being harmed. 

Additionally, this petrie dish of unvaccinated people allows variants to develop, which may make it worse for everyone.  

If people that make stupid decisions would just get sick and die, I'd be ok with it.  But that's not how it works.  These foolish decisions have a negative effect on everyone else.  

My wife has worked in healthcare for 30+ years. Hospitals run at 90% ICU capacity as SOP. They can't afford to have empty ICU beds. If they do, they shut down a unit or shift a portion to a step-down unit. Talking about scary ICU percentages is a fear tactic with no real consequences. Many hospitals are capable of increasing to decreasing ICU beds as the needs fluctuate.

 

[Bogeys]

My wife has worked in healthcare for 30+ years. Hospitals run at 90% ICU capacity as SOP. They can't afford to have empty ICU beds. If they do, they shut down a unit or shift a portion to a step-down unit. Talking about scary ICU percentages is a fear tactic with no real consequences. Many hospitals are capable of increasing to decreasing ICU beds as the needs fluctuate.

Link for this data.  

 

[-fish-]

My wife has worked in healthcare for 30+ years. Hospitals run at 90% ICU capacity as SOP. They can't afford to have empty ICU beds. If they do, they shut down a unit or shift a portion to a step-down unit. Talking about scary ICU percentages is a fear tactic with no real consequences. Many hospitals are capable of increasing to decreasing ICU beds as the needs fluctuate.

This is completely false.  

 

[CrossEyed2]

If your seatbelt protects you from car accidents, why do we punish drunk drivers?

Poor analogy if the official story about vaccines is accurate. Your vaccine protects you. They've stated that confidently. It's not like a seatbelt, it's like a steel cage.

 

[CrossEyed2]

This is completely false.  

OK, I didn't mean to suggest that it's an every day occurrence, but it's not the least bit unusual. ICUs don't sit around empty when there's no "pandemic".

 

[jm192]

Poor analogy if the official story about vaccines is accurate. Your vaccine protects you. They've stated that confidently. It's not like a seatbelt, it's like a steel cage.

As others have stated, the vaccine dramatically lowers my chances.  If everyone I come into contact with has dramatically lowered their chances of getting it--then my chances are now extraordinarily low.  

But really, it's not about concern for myself.  It's the unvaccinated coming into contact with more unvaccinated.  They sometimes get very sick and wind up in the hospital.  They die.  I'd like to stop that. 

And you guys say "well, they made their choice."  But they're making it based off poor information/misinformation.

 

[CrossEyed2]

As others have stated, the vaccine dramatically lowers my chances.  If everyone I come into contact with has dramatically lowered their chances of getting it--then my chances are now extraordinarily low.  

But really, it's not about concern for myself.  It's the unvaccinated coming into contact with more unvaccinated.  They sometimes get very sick and wind up in the hospital.  They die.  I'd like to stop that. 

And you guys say "well, they made their choice."  But they're making it based off poor information/misinformation.

So I'm guessing you're also pushing to mandate the closing of McDonalds, Burger King, the sale of cigarettes and alcohol, and limiting ice cream purchases based on one's BMI?

 

[Jayrod]

As an example, Georgia ICU beds are over 90% full right now due to COVID patients.   At this point, they are reporting that all of the hospitalized cases are unvaccinated.   Due to the fact that the hospitals are overrun, they are not able to perform any non-emergency surgeries.   So because of misinformed, selfish unvaccinated people, other people are being harmed. 

Additionally, this petrie dish of unvaccinated people allows variants to develop, which may make it worse for everyone.  

If people that make stupid decisions would just get sick and die, I'd be ok with it.  But that's not how it works.  These foolish decisions have a negative effect on everyone else.  

I completely agree with this and believe it to be fact.

I also, still believe a vaccine mandate is out of line and should not be done in the USA.

This is not who we are or what we do.

It reminds me a lot of my arguments for the 2nd amendment.  I know it causes a lot of unnecessary death in the country, but it is a hill I AM willing to die on to prevent the overrun of tyrannical government which is why it was placed in the Bill of Rights.  I believe to force vaccination across the board (or make it financially untenable for most to not get vaccinated) is tyrannical in nature and the kind of thing that is done in Russia or China.  But not here.

 

[jm192]

OK, I didn't mean to suggest that it's an every day occurrence, but it's not the least bit unusual. ICUs don't sit around empty when there's no "pandemic".

Do you understand what you're saying?

Hospitals are able to close down an ICU or CCU during non-pandemic times.  We can't do that now.  ICU's are very full.  

What you're saying is accurate--but your interpretation is off.  

My hospital has two ICU's.  When they don't have enough patients for both--we put them all in one and close the other down.  That doesn't negate the fact that ICU's are at capacity now and no one is closing ICU's to help those statistics. 

 

[Jayrod]

And you guys say "well, they made their choice."  But they're making it based off poor information/misinformation.

This is life in the 21st century.

 

[jm192]

So I'm guessing you're also pushing to mandate the closing of McDonalds, Burger King, the sale of cigarettes and alcohol, and limiting ice cream purchases based on one's BMI?

Are you able to discuss this without whataboutisms?  I've played this game with a lot of your buddies on here a lot of times.  

I'm not sure what McDonalds has to do with vaccines.

Hospitals aren't full due to fat people from McDonalds.  They aren't full from alcoholics.  You have a few of those at a time.  Hospitals have 70-80 covids right now.  And they generally get a lot sicker.  They stay in the hospital longer.  They use up more resources.  

Most alcoholics come in with pancreatitis or low sodium or something completely unrelated to their alcohol use.  They rarely stay in the hospital more than a few days?

 

[CrossEyed2]

Are you able to discuss this without whataboutisms?  I've played this game with a lot of your buddies on here a lot of times.  

I'm not sure what McDonalds has to do with vaccines.

Hospitals aren't full due to fat people from McDonalds.  They aren't full from alcoholics.  You have a few of those at a time.  Hospitals have 70-80 covids right now.  And they generally get a lot sicker.  They stay in the hospital longer.  They use up more resources.  

Most alcoholics come in with pancreatitis or low sodium or something completely unrelated to their alcohol use.  They rarely stay in the hospital more than a few days?

Well, I'd disagree with the assessment of how many "COVIDS" are in each hospital based on the completely faulty and misused "test" that determines one's status, but I'm sure that would fall on deaf ears, so I'll just move along.

 

[jm192]

Well, I'd disagree with the assessment of how many "COVIDS" are in each hospital based on the completely faulty and misused "test" that determines one's status, but I'm sure that would fall on deaf ears, so I'll just move along.

Yeah.  

When nothing else works "I don't trust the data."