Has the cure become worse than the disease? (1 Viewer)

[dkp993]

I just saw an interesting stat (or rather I extrapolated a stat from data) - but I saw that there are 3 Million covid19 cases worldwide, and 1 Million in the US alone.

Given that the US population is roughly 4% of the world population, having 33% of the covid19 cases is really odd.  (And I mean in odd in a bad way)

ETA - and maybe even more disturbing - 208,000 deaths world wide, and 57,000 in the US - roughly 27% of world deaths in the US

I posted that same stat a few days ago in a thread here too.  No one had any thoughts.  I’m extremely curious why it’s hit us so hard.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

I posted that same stat a few days ago in a thread here too.  No one had any thoughts.  I’m extremely curious why it’s hit us so hard.  

Its definitely weird.

Open borders allowed the virus to spread, slow reaction times, and virtually no testing/contact tracing in place did not help.  A leadership void at the top prevented a robust national response, and instead allowed a piecemeal local approach - which left gaps everywhere.

We apparently had a national response playbook - but its not clear on whether it was a poorly planned playbook, or poor execution - or a combination thereof.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

We must lead the world in globetrotters? And no I'm not just talking basketball.

 

[msudaisy26]

I posted that same stat a few days ago in a thread here too.  No one had any thoughts.  I’m extremely curious why it’s hit us so hard.  

I think it is a combination of things. I think China is lying about their actual numbers, I think our late response has hurt us, and I also think the way we perceive our freedoms and our government played a large role b

 

[Sinn Fein]

We must lead the world in globetrotters? And no I'm not just talking basketball.

Probably on par with China.

That played a big role - 40,000 people came from China, after travel from China was banned.  Many multiples of that number came from Europe, where the virus had already spread from China.

 

[The Commish]

I just saw an interesting stat (or rather I extrapolated a stat from data) - but I saw that there are 3 Million covid19 cases worldwide, and 1 Million in the US alone.

Given that the US population is roughly 4% of the world population, having 33% of the covid19 cases is really odd.  (And I mean in odd in a bad way)

ETA - and maybe even more disturbing - 208,000 deaths world wide, and 57,000 in the US - roughly 27% of world deaths in the US

Pretty good for the "greatest healthcare system in the world" eh?

 

[kwille]

I just saw an interesting stat (or rather I extrapolated a stat from data) - but I saw that there are 3 Million covid19 cases worldwide, and 1 Million in the US alone.

Given that the US population is roughly 4% of the world population, having 33% of the covid19 cases is really odd.  (And I mean in odd in a bad way)

ETA - and maybe even more disturbing - 208,000 deaths world wide, and 57,000 in the US - roughly 27% of world deaths in the US

Something, many somethings, went horribly wrong. ETA being on the tail end of the global spread seemed to make things tougher on us as some have mentioned above. I'd like to think that the added time to prepare could have served as a benefit but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

I'd like to think that the added time to prepare could have served as a benefit but that doesn't seem to be the case.

It certainly could have. It didn't, of course. Because that would require actually trying to prepare, at the national level.

 

[Stealthycat]

"guesses" can be accurate...

if you have good data.

But, if the data changes, like say, the number of spreads per infection drops, then that changes the model.

sure they can

I "guessed" weeks ago that covid-19 wouldn't be any more deaths than the normal flu/pneumonia has in a single year combined

time will tell if my guess is right

 

[sho nuff]

sure they can

I "guessed" weeks ago that covid-19 wouldn't be any more deaths than the normal flu/pneumonia has in a single year combined

time will tell if my guess is right

Time will tell?  What normal flu season kills 60,000 in two months?

The “its just the flu” narrative was bad early on and even worse now.  

 

[Stealthycat]

Remember...the guesses are based on legitimate science...not lies meant to hurt you and Trump.  And you still can't seem to acknowledge that the numbers discussed were if we didn't stay at home and didn't keep distancing and so on.  Want to see what the models look like about how fast hospitals can be overrun if we return too soon?  Worst case...46 days if the transmission rate spikes..

ok when's the last time any actions taken by the US Fed Govt or State Govt has ended with them admitting they were wrong ?

ever ? because they ARE wrong, a lot ... they just refuse to admit it

 

[Stealthycat]

Time will tell?  What normal flu season kills 60,000 in two months?

The “its just the flu” narrative was bad early on and even worse now.  

I think 80,000 a year is about right on flu isn't it ?

When did we last shut the economy down for that? Didn't those lives matter? 

 

[sho nuff]

ok when's the last time any actions taken by the US Fed Govt or State Govt has ended with them admitting they were wrong ?

ever ? because they ARE wrong, a lot ... they just refuse to admit it

What does that have to do with what you posted and what I responded to?

 

[Stealthycat]

this particular non vaccine/non defensible by human immune system virus

um .... 98-99% of the population has bodies that defend against covid-19 virus pretty well ... .right ?

 

[sho nuff]

I think 80,000 a year is about right on flu isn't it ?

When did we last shut the economy down for that? Didn't those lives matter? 

So no answer to the actual question I asked you?

This will kill that many with severe measures taken...what about that is hard to understand?

 

[Stealthycat]

What does that have to do with what you posted and what I responded to?

because this repetitive " well we took action so of course the numbers have changes, the guesses have changed" etc

ANY action taken would have been given credit for reducing deaths - ban twinkies and you could say that too was a good factor I guess ??

Look, if you took 1,000 healthy young people without any issues .... and gave them all covid-19 .... how many would die ?  0 ? 1 ??    this virus affects unhealthy people, just like fluy and pnemonia and we never reacted like this at any other time with 80-100,000 dying every year. 

Has the cure become worse?   yes - it has IMO

people EVERY YEAR with compromised immune systems and elderly etc have to be conscious of getting a virus - and we never quarantined healthy people before or shut the economy down. We've never allowed Walmart and Lowes and Home Depot and Amazon etc to literally monoplize people's buying things - and at the same time giving people a few central places to mass congregate while also shutting down all the ma and pa places that would have dispersed people. We've NEVER responded like this

ever

 

[Stealthycat]

This will kill that many with severe measures taken...what about that is hard to understand?

you are guessing

maybe it does, maybe it doesn't ... maybe the numbers are inflated? maybe the number is slightly more, or less

we don't know yet

 

[Amused to Death]

I think 80,000 a year is about right on flu isn't it ?

When did we last shut the economy down for that? Didn't those lives matter? 

Covid-19 will reach 80k WITH the restrictions. In only a few months, not a year. And a likelihood of another wave in the Fall that could be worse. Break it down to comparable time frames instead of a year for one and just a few months for the other.

And its worth repeating - the numbers for covid-19 are WITH the quarantines, face masks, etc.

 

[BladeRunner]

you are guessing

maybe it does, maybe it doesn't ... maybe the numbers are inflated? maybe the number is slightly more, or less

we don't know yet

We haven't even come close to the numbers they were predicting that would die from this. While more people may be testing positive, less people are actually being admitted to the hospital and even fraction of those are being admitted to the ICU.

 

[sho nuff]

because this repetitive " well we took action so of course the numbers have changes, the guesses have changed" etc

ANY action taken would have been given credit for reducing deaths - ban twinkies and you could say that too was a good factor I guess ??

Look, if you took 1,000 healthy young people without any issues .... and gave them all covid-19 .... how many would die ?  0 ? 1 ??    this virus affects unhealthy people, just like fluy and pnemonia and we never reacted like this at any other time with 80-100,000 dying every year. 

Has the cure become worse?   yes - it has IMO

people EVERY YEAR with compromised immune systems and elderly etc have to be conscious of getting a virus - and we never quarantined healthy people before or shut the economy down. We've never allowed Walmart and Lowes and Home Depot and Amazon etc to literally monoplize people's buying things - and at the same time giving people a few central places to mass congregate while also shutting down all the ma and pa places that would have dispersed people. We've NEVER responded like this

ever

You probably should read what actual doctors have said.  You either haven’t been paying attention or like getting reactions.

Good bye...I don't think anyone will be able to get through to you to understand...or you just don't want to.

 

[sho nuff]

Covid-19 will reach 80k WITH the restrictions. In only a few months, not a year. And a likelihood of another wave in the Fall that could be worse. Break it down to comparable time frames instead of a year for one and just a few months for the other.

And its worth repeating - the numbers for covid-19 are WITH the quarantines, face masks, etc.

Its becoming no longer worth repeating.

The old can lead a horse to water thing...some chose to not drink.

 

[The General]

Been awhile since a good ol’ “COVID is the flu” post.

 

[msudaisy26]

Been awhile since a good ol’ “COVID is the flu” post.

The funny part is watching him hook so many of you with it. 

 

[Kal El]

A million cases, with 56 thousand deaths, just in the US. 

 

[moleculo]

um .... 98-99% of the population has bodies that defend against covid-19 virus pretty well ... .right ?

As far as I know, 0% of the population has bodies that defend against covid-19.

 

[TripItUp]

We were both underprepared for any pandemic, and we handled this particular pandemic very poorly.  Ultimately that is on the president, though there are also others who dropped the ball here.

Standard liberal talking points 

Everything the President has done is bad.

Liberals are in for a rude awakening when they lose the Presidential election again to an easily beatable candidate.

 

[Kal El]

Standard liberal talking points 

Everything the President has done is bad.

Liberals are in for a rude awakening when they lose the Presidential election again to an easily beatable candidate.

1 million cases, 56 thousand deaths, all since Trump said "one day, it'll be gone, like a miracle."

 

[TripItUp]

“Stockholm to reach herd immunity in May.“

LINK

OPEN BACK UP

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

there are more than 18,500 confirmed coronavirus cases in Sweden, with 2,194 deaths as of Sunday.

These numbers don't bode well when compared with those of other Nordic countries.

This month, Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Löfven said thousands in the country could die.

"we will have more seriously ill people who need intensive care — we will have significantly more deaths."

Yeah sign me up baby.

 

[Henry Ford]

I think 80,000 a year is about right on flu isn't it ?

When did we last shut the economy down for that? Didn't those lives matter? 

No. It isn’t.
 

We are already past a normal flu season. Overall the CDC estimates are between 12,000 and 61,000 deaths are attributable to flu annually since 2010. And what we have done is make a flu vaccine available every year. 
 

We are at 55,000 Covid-19 deaths in a month and a half or so with these measures in place, and that doesn’t include a lot of people who may have died of it. 
 

It also doesn’t include long term organ damage issues with lungs, kidneys, and neurological symptoms, and we are nowhere near through a full year. 

 

[Stealthycat]

You probably should read what actual doctors have said.  You either haven’t been paying attention or like getting reactions.

Good bye...I don't think anyone will be able to get through to you to understand...or you just don't want to.

you can eat up what the left serves if you'd like ... reality is, we allow tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands to die every year for a variety of reasons .... either from the flu, pneumonia, obesity, drugs, smoking, abortion .... and all those deaths are fine and dandy and nobody complains, nobody shuts down the economy or takes away personal freedoms

the "doctors" are all saying the same thing - if you're unhealthy and/or older and/or immune compromised - you'd better be careful because this virus kills like others do. The differences are that it does spread fast, and there is no vaccine but that can be said for other viruses as well and we didn't freak out about those either. 

so yeah, I've read and read and it doesn't make sense to allow the giant mega stores to stay open and close all the little ones and gather everyone into those big stores to shop ... does it ? and many other things doesn't make sense either - but knee jerk reactions do those things.

the precedence has been set - now, every pandemic that is coming or feared is going to cause an economic shutdown, millions of out work, 10-12 to 15 trillion in costs, massive Govt spending , loss of freedoms ... and I mean every flu breakout, every new viral that comes etc etc and it'll all be about saving lives

meanwhile, 500,000 die from smoking every year ..... 

 

[Stealthycat]

No. It isn’t.
 

We are already past a normal flu season. Overall the CDC estimates are between 12,000 and 61,000 deaths are attributable to flu annually since 2010. And what we have done is make a flu vaccine available every year. 
 

We are at 55,000 Covid-19 deaths in a month and a half or so with these measures in place, and that doesn’t include a lot of people who may have died of it. 
 

It also doesn’t include long term organ damage issues with lungs, kidneys, and neurological symptoms, and we are nowhere near through a full year. 

the above is true Henry Ford - I thought 80,000 was the flu numbers but regardless .... 61,000 is a LOT of people and you have to admit, if we shut the economy down similarly, we WOULD save lives every year from the flu being spread

why don't we do that ?

because the cost isn't worth those lives every year (who would have died of flu)

that's the truth to that too, isn't it ?

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

Ah yes, the extremely contagious obesity, smoking and abortion.

 

[msudaisy26]

Seriously guys spit out the hook. 

 

[Henry Ford]

the above is true Henry Ford - I thought 80,000 was the flu numbers but regardless .... 61,000 is a LOT of people and you have to admit, if we shut the economy down similarly, we WOULD save lives every year from the flu being spread

why don't we do that ?

because the cost isn't worth those lives every year (who would have died of flu)

that's the truth to that too, isn't it ?

Because we have a vaccine and that’s what limits it to 61,000 people. Much like social distancing might limit it to 75,000 people. 

 

[Henry Ford]

“Stockholm to reach herd immunity in May.“

LINK

OPEN BACK UP

If you use Sweden’s expected death statistics per capita based on their social distancing methodology and apply it to the United States, close to a half million people would die here.  That’s not even taking into account packed cities here that Sweden doesn’t have; Stockholm doesn’t even compare to them with less than 2/3 the density of Los Angeles and less than half of NYC. 

I’m not okay with that.

And those are the same models that predicted less than 60,000 deaths total in the United States a couple weeks ago or so if we stayed locked up through May. We’ll break that number well before most lockdowns are lifted.  

 

[sho nuff]

Smoking...its almost as if that is a choice...and we don’t regulate the crap out of it.  
Dude...

 

[dkp993]

  yeah this is fun.  Let me try again  , yep still fun. 

 

[rcam]

I think 80,000 a year is about right on flu isn't it ?

When did we last shut the economy down for that? Didn't those lives matter? 

Nope. 80K/year is nothing close to a normal flu year. 

 

[moleculo]

I think a normal flu year is around 15-20k.  An exceptionally bad year gets to 60k.

I have never seen any hospitals in America have to employ refrigerated trucks to act as temporary morgues.  

Can anyone tell me the last time we dug mass graves in America?  I'd guess the Spanish Flu of 1918, but thata just a guess.

 

[The Commish]

What happened to the predictions of us having 2 Million deaths?

That was without intervention.

On this, I am noticing the attempt to rewrite history even as it is unfolding in front of us.  With all this, we must always consider the sources.  Where did the 2M deaths begin being reported?

A history

Something @TripItUp and @Stealthycat and the like should read and understand.

 

[James Daulton]

I think a normal flu year is around 15-20k.  An exceptionally bad year gets to 60k.

I have never seen any hospitals in America have to employ refrigerated trucks to act as temporary morgues.  

Can anyone tell me the last time we dug mass graves in America?  I'd guess the Spanish Flu of 1918, but thata just a guess.

This.  A largely countrywide lock down and the US will still hit 100k deaths.  Imagine if people didn't stop going to movies, concerts, restaurants, malls etc.

Not hard to see this would have easily spread everywhere and we could have had a million deaths. 

 

[The Commish]

We have vaccinations for flu in an attempt to mitigate.  We tax the #### out of cigarettes in an attempt to mitigate.  We have DUI laws in an attempt to mitigate drunk driving.  We see what the flu can do if left to it's own devices (remember 1918?)...we do what we can to mitigate.

These tropes that flu kills X people, cigs X people, drunk drivers x people (can't believe that nonsense is even being brought up...seems like the "go to" for bad analogies anymore), and we're "OK" with that is nonsense.  All those Xs are with mitigating efforts in place.  Clearly we care about people dying from those things.  The reality is, the virus is going to kill more people in two months than a flu kills people in a season (6-7 months) and that is WITH extreme measures in place.  And those extreme measures are in place because this is a brand new strand of nastiness that we have to figure out how to mitigate long term.  We missed our window to keep this at bay like we were able to with SARS...our inaction is to blame for that, but we can't change that now.  So we are left with trying to figure out how to manage it from now on, just like we manage the flu and it's going to be painful for a while as the best course of action is determined.  

 

[JAA]

It went over 50,000 already...with extreme measures to slow it down.

Everything else you mention is a deflection...and we take measures to lower those deaths as well.

Already sick?  No...stop making things up.

of the 50,000 I bet 25,000 of them would have died anyway but there is no way of knowing 

already sick people with multiple issues die - they do ......... and virus like the flu and others prey on those already weak and they have for , well, since the dawn of man

i can guarantee you all of them would die anyway 

these arguments are so childish

 

[JAA]

Because no pandemic since 1918 has been as serious as this. That's why.

ok we don't KNOW how serious a pandemic is when it starts,only when we look back

that's why this is different

You mean like looking back 6 weeks and seeing 10 times the amount of deaths in NYC than typical over the same period?

what about this one:  https://www.ft.com/content/6bd88b7d-3386-4543-b2e9-0d5c6fac846c

the urban data is simply amazing

 

[kface]

Seriously without the measures you have to believe that we would be much greater than 100,000 deaths in 6 weeks.  The flu season kills maybe 55k in 6 months...

 

[JAA]

same people who said Hillary was going to win in 2016 ?

same people who said we'd see 1-2 million covid-19 deaths in the USA ?

Let me straight up ask - in 2022 there will be another virus - it will kill 50-60,000 American's and the cost is a 5-6 trillion dollar bailout package and 10-15 trillion in economic impact, 5-7% jump in unemployment etc

Would you be ok with doing all this again for 50-60,000 ?

Who gets to choose which 50-60k die?  My answer will depend on if it is someone I care about ... /sarcasam

 

[JAA]

This reply isn't about you, specifically, but rather the thought process. Allow me to try to write this out coherently:

Too many people are putting their jobs ahead of their health. You're ranting about people losing jobs at the, possible, cost of losing their life. When a society puts working above and beyond the health and liberty of people... that is a problem. And, if that is what people classify "Capitalism" as, then the morphing of what Capitalism has become is demonstrably dangerous, bad, and time to die itself.

You and others complain about having to stay home to stay healthy, when we all should be complaining about how we are enslaved to jobs that, try, to keep our lives going. The jobs we have should be looking out for our health and well-being... we the people shouldn't be looking out for the health of the economy above and beyond the health of our neighbor.

This whole phrase of the "cure is worse than the disease" need to look into where that phrase came from. Where did it originate and look at the guys background. Is this who you want to follow? Is this guys philosophy the one you agree with? The person, I believe, that began saying it during this crisis is Kevin D. Williamson. Is this who you want to follow?

And, look at who people are listening to when it comes to loosening restrictions. Hannity, makes $36 million a year. Carlson, makes $6 million a year but also part of the Swanson family. Some of you are listening to million/billionaires who care nothing about you. This list goes on.

Thank you

 

[Ilov80s]

We all are going to die anyway. What’s an extra 5-10 years of life worth anyway? Hell in the grand scheme of existence, 80 years is a fraction of a blink of an eye. Anyone who dies of anything had it coming. 

 

[JAA]

Fundamentally I reject your entire post.  If I subscribe to the idea that the cure is worse that than disease it does NOT mean I subscribe to one person and I am not going to research where that phrase came from. GTFO.   I love the idea of every single person in the world working for a job that only cares about their health and well being and I'm sorry that we are "enslaved" in our jobs.  It sucks.  But I live in the real world and that's how it is right now.  If you want to change the world, you should maybe create a new thread.  And I already commented on the last part.  

This is not the message I am teaching my children. This is not the world I want my children to grow up in. You choose to accept it, I am choosing to change it.