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Head-to-Head bad way of playing FF? (1 Viewer)

For me....

Fantasy sports are about balancing the fun it brings while watching the games and reducing the luck factor. A H2H system has a much bigger "fun-factor" than a total points league and thus the reason why it is more popular.

 
Especially since the best team in the leagu has gotten screwed by the Manning/Wayne combo sitting in the FF playoffs.
I was going to use them as another example of the strategy difference between H2H and Total Points. An owner drafting Manning, Wayne, & Addai in total points is probably in better shape than one drafting all three on the same H2H team. In total points, you'd get their total full year of production. In H2H, the lower variance will regress toward your scoring average... some weeks a bad game by Peyton will sink your team, other weeks, his stellar production might 'go to waste' as it runs up the score in a game you'd win anyway. An owner might want to spread their team around a bit more in H2H to change their scoring dynamic. In Total Points, getting them is "set it and forget it", they won't be on the pine unless they're hurt or on a bye. In some cases in H2H, an owner might want to go with a higher variance lineup to have a better chance at winning.
 
It's just hard to spend time and money on something where the reward (either bragging rights or $ or both) don't go to the obvious best.
I guess if your entire objective of playing fantasy football is to win money, then I can see why you do not like H2H. For the 95% of fantasy players who enjoy more than just the monetary prize at the end of the year, then H2H offers much more pros than cons.
 
ah, this debate again.

think aboot it this way. how does the NFL work?

yea, theres some luck involved with H2H, but its much more fun that way, imo. a big part of FF is puttin the smack down on a leaguemate.

total points makes sense in an anonymous, salary cap league, where you can start anyone week to week. if you are in a league with people your know (i personally wont play in anonymous leagues anymore, not fun, imo) H2H is the only way to go.

 
The more tests you have against other teams in the league, the more representative results will be of how your team actually performed.

But, there is something to be said for having a specific opponent each week for trash talking, rivalries, etc.

I've found that a nice compromise is double headers. Winning percentage with double headers tends to be closer to what your all-play winning percentage is, without losing much of what people like about H2H. Plus you get to play your rivals twice as much each season.

 
i play both ....

all my free leagues are H2H & i know only a few of the other owners.

my money league ($200 per owner) is total points (has been since its inception in 1994) & i know all the owners.

.... i enoy both (& see the good & bad in both), but i prefer total points.

 
I don't play for money in either of my leagues, redraft or dynasty. It's not about that for me. For me it's about outsmarting the others in my league in drafting, WW, trades...

Sorry to start this discussion. Do what you want. Love it.

Just out of curiosity, what are the biggest reasons you all play FF?

 
Not trying to promote anything here...but if you are interested I will PM you or anybody else that is interested the unique "Head 2 Head Plus" system we created in 2004 after reading a similar idea by a guy named Mark Bond from the old fantasy asylum site. We actually used Bond's system for the 2004 season and my partner Chris worked on a "better" system during that season/offseason. I do feel the system he came up with is better and I also like Bond's...they are both much more accurate than tradtional H2H.

Our league members were very skeptical when the system was first implemented, because they felt like they needed a regular looking record...as opposed to some the larger #'s that are used to represent the standings. Although we don't end up with records that look like 8-5...we still keep the positive things H2H brings to the table...like building rivalries and weekly competition.

Regular H2H promotes the luck factor way too much, IMO and is one of the worst ways to run a league. At the end of the day all we can do as coaches is draft and start the best guys available. We can't play defense and slow the other guys team down like in a real physical sporting event. Even IDP's still add more positive points to the boxscores...FF is a completely different beast than the NFL and should handled as such in the scoring and standings. I have been discussing/arguing with FF people about this subject since 2003...when I read Mark Bond's article.

 
mr roboto said:
It's hard to have 'fun' once the truth comes out for me.This has really caused a bit of heated discussion in our league. Especially since the best team in the leagu has gotten screwed by the Manning/Wayne combo sitting in the FF playoffs.
So when does the Manning/Wayne owner start getting the hint that those two might not be available to him during the fantasy playoffs? When the Colts are 8-0? 9-0? 10-0? 11-0? 12-0?
 
Mr.Underhill said:
Everyone who plays H2H more than a year or two knows that H2H has an element of risk that all-play or total points lack. That's the point of H2H, it has an element of unpredictability and risk that is attractive. It keeps the underdog in play. Part of the challenge is not only beating another owner's skill, but also beating "luck".
This is the part I don't get. How did any group have the wits to put together a dynasty league and at the same time be clueless enough not to know that H2H was more random?
 
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Total Points is the best barometer of who is the BEST team but IMO you should use a combination of both. Generally speaking our league rewards the Total Point Champion with approximately 80% of the payout while the head-to-head champ gets about 25%. The total points champion is recognized as our league champion.
So is the H2H champ considered the 2nd best owner?How often are these the same person?
No. The 2nd best team is the team with the 2nd highest point total. I never understood this argument? The best fantasy team is the team with the highest number of points after week 17, not the H2H champion. Why is their a debate? Don't get it?
 
This is why one of my local leagues changed the playoff seedings four years ago. Only seeds 1-4 get in based on record. Seeds 5 and 6 get in on highest total points after the top 4 H2H records. This settles the matchup argument. In addition, playoff teams are handicapped in their post season games by their in season weekly average. So, H2H seeds 1 and 2 get a bye in the first round. And all other rounds have teams matched up and handicapped by the difference in their respective weekly average. Works out great for us.

 
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We have had every issue with the H2H in my dynasty league over the last 6 years. Only 2 of the years did the "best" team win. I agree that H2H is the only way to make the league fun. It just sucks if you have one bad week and it is in the playoffs. Last year there was a team with one loss in the regular season. Most total points in regular season. 1st round bye. Then he had his worst game all year in week 15 and was bounced out of the playoffs. Of coarse the next two weeks he out scored the 1st & 2nd place team by a ton. I have been floating this around my dynasty league. H2H weeks 1 - 13. Then three week total points weeks 14 -16 to determine champ. This way one big or clunker of a week doesn't screw the whole year. If your team is really that good you can recover from a bad week in the playoffs. Same goes for the wildcard team that starts Aaron Stecker and he goes off for 27 points and advances to the championship. WTF.

 
Everyone who plays H2H more than a year or two knows that H2H has an element of risk that all-play or total points lack. That's the point of H2H, it has an element of unpredictability and risk that is attractive. It keeps the underdog in play. Part of the challenge is not only beating another owner's skill, but also beating "luck".
This is the part I don't get. How did any group have the wits to put together a dynasty league and at the same time be clueless enough not to know that H2H was more random?
This was a redraft league that was switched to a keeper league to transition into dynasty. I came in the year that it was going to be keepers and then it went dynasty.I don't think anyone really thought about it because they had all played in redraft ESPN/yahoo type leagues. We have used myfantasyleague.com for 5 years now.Clueless is a bit strong. You must wish everyone was a smart as you. It just takes time for people to learn things in life. I guess it's taking you longer than most to learn that.
 
We use Victory Points. Basically, you get a point for a win and you get a point for being in the top 4 in points for the week.

IMO, it allows you to keep the fun of H2H, but have consistent high scoring mean something. Once you get to the playoffs, though, it's a crap shoot, but I'm OK with that.

 
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All-play or total points is good for on-line/$$$ leagues. But H2H is much more fun for local leagues.
:thumbdown: Totally agree.When there is money involved and you play with friends head-to-head is good .I have been in the same league for over 20 years ( No money ) and believe it s as competititve as if there was money, if there was money it end in a brawl ..
 
If you want to the league to determine who is the best at predicting which NFL players will generate the relevant stats, then yes anything that trends away from H2H and more towards total points will increase the 'skill' factor by some amount. I don't think there's a way to argue against that.

The question is: what is your cost benefit here? The cost is your 'fun factor' and the benefit is increase in 'skill factor'. For some groups of people skill factor = fun factor and you have a perfect match, just go Total Points. But that is rarely the case.

IMO: Convince all your leaguemates to start a new 2nd league based on Total Points and try out both in parallel for the year! :jawdrop:

 
If you want to the league to determine who is the best at predicting which NFL players will generate the relevant stats, then yes anything that trends away from H2H and more towards total points will increase the 'skill' factor by some amount. I don't think there's a way to argue against that. The question is: what is your cost benefit here? The cost is your 'fun factor' and the benefit is increase in 'skill factor'. For some groups of people skill factor = fun factor and you have a perfect match, just go Total Points. But that is rarely the case. IMO: Convince all your leaguemates to start a new 2nd league based on Total Points and try out both in parallel for the year! :)
This is exactly what we are going to do with one h2h and the other allplay.
 
Each week, a player goes H2H and also plays against the league average for that week. Can go 2-0, 1-1 or 0-2. We did this last year. Net effect: get rewarded for a strong week, don't get screwed for scoring second in points but losting against highest scorer and most deserving teams advance to playoffs. This has been great so far.

 
There are all kinds of leagues out there and many ways to play. The beauty of FF is that any league can do whatever they want to do. As someone earlier posted, some leagues will want to bias their results more toward "skill" and others might bias their results more toward "luck" and head-to-head vs. all-play vs. total points is a big part of that. Victory points is another method of compromise.

A couple thoughts I always have when I see these threads:

1. Head-to-head vs. total points isn't the only debate concerning luck. Auction vs. draft, scoring format, lineup vs. best ball, size of lineups, etc. all affect the so-called luck quotient.

2. Other aspects of a league (not just "luck") can also be addressed as PART of the solution.

Specifically, one of the other issues that come up every year is disinterested owners as the season progresses. Teams can start 0-5 or total points teams can get similarly far behind.

One way to both minimize luck and keep owners interested all season long is using weekly total high score(s) for prizes.

Put it all together in one league and you can have:

1. Head-to-head champion. Best emulates the NFL, maintains "rivalries" and trash talking, etc.

2. Total points champion (or all-play or combo). Rewards season-long consistency and lessens impact of one-week wonders.

3. Weekly points champions each week. Also rewards season-long strong teams and figure to keep owners more interested.

Should all three formats be used? Which should end up with the highest percentage of winnings? Who is the recognized champion?

The answers are different for each league. But if you haven't considered having a multiple format prize league (as I call this), you should. All of these formats are not for everyone, but if you take the time to explain what it is and why it has value to your league, maybe you'll find a way to improve the league for all involved. It certainly doesn't hurt to try.

 
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I am in the 9th year of a "big money" Fantasy League with friends. I have made the playoffs every year, have the best record since we started, and have scored the most points over that span, yet the championship ring has escaped my grasp. Why? because of our H2H system.

It may also be to my sour grapes, but a H2H playoff system is just as much luck as it is skill. Getting to the playoffs is the skill part of H2H to some degree, but the playoffs are luck, luck, and more luck.

Is H2H more fun? Hell yes! The trash talking between teams is worth more than any amount of money, and in my league its a nice chunk of change.

I have started to suggest TWO prizes, one for the H2H winner and one for the team with the most points scored, this way you have the fun and the league rewards "The Best" team.

 
There are all kinds of leagues out there and many ways to play. The beauty of FF is that any league can do whatever they want to do. As someone earlier posted, some leagues will want to bias their results more toward "skill" and others might bias their results more toward "luck" and head-to-head vs. all-play vs. total points is a big part of that. Victory points is another method of compromise.A couple thoughts I always have when I see these threads:1. Head-to-head vs. total points isn't the only debate concerning luck. Auction vs. draft, scoring format, lineup vs. best ball, size of lineups, etc. all affect the so-called luck quotient.2. Other aspects of a league (not just "luck") can also be addressed as PART of the solution.Specifically, one of the other issues that come up every year is disinterested owners as the season progresses. Teams can start 0-5 or total points teams can get similarly far behind.One way to both minimize luck and keep owners interested all season long is using weekly total high score(s) for prizes. Put it all together in one league and you can have:1. Head-to-head champion. Best emulates the NFL, maintains "rivalries" and trash talking, etc.2. Total points champion (or all-play or combo). Rewards season-long consistency and lessens impact of one-week wonders.3. Weekly points champions each week. Also rewards season-long strong teams and figure to keep owners more interested.Should all three formats be used? Which should end up with the highest percentage of winnings? Who is the recognized champion?The answers are different for each league. But if you haven't considered having a multiple format prize league (as I call this), you should. All of these formats are not for everyone, but if you take the time to explain what it is and why it has value to your league, maybe you'll find a way to improve the league for all involved. It certainly doesn't hurt to try.
We do H2H and weekly points awards. Generally speaking, the strongest teams will make their entry fee back in the weekly points contest.
 
We do H2H and weekly points awards. Generally speaking, the strongest teams will make their entry fee back in the weekly points contest.
There you go.The very first benefit of FF for me was that it gave me a reason to watch -- and be strongly interested in -- virtually any game on the schedule. Before FF, if MNF was a matchup of dud teams or it didn't affect the hometown team, there was little incentive to actively watch the game. Beyond scouting for free agents and just enjoying football, having a "side contest" be decided on MNF gives you another thrill once H2H is decided for the week. So it's not just about luck or holding owners interest once they are out of contention.
 
Whynot do both?

I'm having an experiment league where:

The first 11 weeks of the season are H2H (you play everyone once, 12 teams)

6 teams makes the playoffs and weeks 12-15 are a Total Points playoffs

Top 2 scoring teams in the playoffs play a H2H Super Bowl Week 16

(To make the regular season matter more, we have it so that you get bonus points counted toward the playoffs depending on how you finished in the regular season. 1st gets +20, 2nd get +16, all the way down to 6th who gets no bonus points)

 
We use Victory Points. Basically, you get a point for a win and you get a point for being in the top 4 in points for the week.IMO, it allows you to keep the fun of H2H, but have consistent high scoring mean something. Once you get to the playoffs, though, it's a crap shoot, but I'm OK with that.
:goodposting: Definitely the best of both worlds, I can't believe more people aren't on board with victory points
 
Chubbs said:
I am in the 9th year of a "big money" Fantasy League with friends. I have made the playoffs every year, have the best record since we started, and have scored the most points over that span, yet the championship ring has escaped my grasp. Why? because of our H2H system.

It may also be to my sour grapes, but a H2H playoff system is just as much luck as it is skill. Getting to the playoffs is the skill part of H2H to some degree, but the playoffs are luck, luck, and more luck.

Is H2H more fun? Hell yes! The trash talking between teams is worth more than any amount of money, and in my league its a nice chunk of change.

I have started to suggest TWO prizes, one for the H2H winner and one for the team with the most points scored, this way you have the fun and the league rewards "The Best" team.
All of my money leagues do this, there's no good reason why a league wouldn't (IMO).
 
No, there's no point to it. It's simply a matter of taste.

The goal of fantasy football is to enjoy the experience. My point is that the variables involved in any fantasy footall system, which we call luck, so color the outcome that you can't draw any real conclusion as to the quaility of the particpant who wins. All you can do is conclude that a particular participant recorded the best score according to whatever criteria you found more palatable.

So you started this thread to debate a matter of taste?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but when you take a better or worse position in a matter of taste, you're off track from the first step.
A game that is total luck - results should be purely random and no consistent winners or losers over time.A game that is partially luck/partially skill - results will have some people doing generally better/generally worse than average based on their skill.

A game that is total skill - results will have the most skilled people winning the most and the least skilled losing the most.

I would submit that if you looked at results of H2H leagues vs. total points leagues over time, the H2H winners/losers will be more random than the

total points winners/losers indicating that total points leagues have less of a luck factor.

I, like the OP, prefer that.

 
ah, this debate again.

think aboot it this way. how does the NFL work?

yea, theres some luck involved with H2H, but its much more fun that way, imo. a big part of FF is puttin the smack down on a leaguemate.

total points makes sense in an anonymous, salary cap league, where you can start anyone week to week. if you are in a league with people your know (i personally wont play in anonymous leagues anymore, not fun, imo) H2H is the only way to go.
You can't compare it to the NFL. NFL teams have defenses which attempt to keep the score of the opponents as low as possible. In Fantasy Football, what do you have to keep your opponent's score low? Nothing. No matter what team you play against in FF, your score is going to be the same.Imagine if the NFL was run H2H like FF. No defense on the field, every team plays at their home stadium and just scores as many points as they can in 60 minutes. Then randomly assign an opponent after the fact and whoever scored more gets the win. Sounds ridiculous, right? But yet that's basically how H2H FF works.

There are plenty of other things where the NFL and FF differ greatly. For example, the NFL does not award points for yardage or bonus points for long FG's.

 
We use Victory Points. Basically, you get a point for a win and you get a point for being in the top 4 in points for the week.

IMO, it allows you to keep the fun of H2H, but have consistent high scoring mean something. Once you get to the playoffs, though, it's a crap shoot, but I'm OK with that.
I did a simulation last year comparing H2H and VP. My league was increasing our league fees so I was pushing for VP's since luck is a lot lower. Despite the results of my simulations, there were still several league members reluctant to switch to VP's. I don't understand why (I think it was because those teams felt they could only make the playoffs with lucky wins), but we did get enough votes luckily to change to VP's.The assumptions were basically that the best team averaged 100 points per week, the 2nd best team 98 points, 3rd best 96 points and so on down to the 10th team which average 82 points. Then I assumed variability similar to what was seen in actual games over the first 11 seasons of our league. Here are the % times each team made the playoffs using the 2 different methods:



Rank (avg/week) VP H2H

1 (100) 91 66

2 (98) 79 54

3 (96) 66 46

4 (94) 53 43

5 (92) 41 40

6 (90) 29 35

7 (88) 21 34

8 (86) 11 30

9 (84) 6 28

10 (82) 3 24

Using H2H, even if you're the worst team under these assumptions, you make the playoffs about 1/4 of the time! Undeserving. And for the top team, they're over 5 times more likely (odds ratio = 5.2) to make the playoffs using VP's compared to H2H. If a lot of money is on the line and you're the best team ("best" being defined as the highest total scoring team), which method would you rather use?

Also, I liked seeing that 9% of the time the top team still doesn't make the playoffs. This means you still have to be consistent throughout the season to make the playoffs. I'm not a fan of total points leagues (although I would still prefer it over H2H) because someone can have a couple of huge weeks that allow them to coast the rest of the weeks. Using VP's or variations of VP's you're still forced to do well many weeks and therefore need to stay on top of in season roster management.

I also used our first 11 years worth of results to show that the correlation between H2H wins and total points was almost the same as the correlation between H2H wins and OPPONENT'S total points. So what your opponent scored played just as big a part in your record as what you scored and you have no way of even controlling that part.

 
I found the results of the correlations I was referring to in my previous post.

Wins vs. total points = 0.435

Wins vs. Opp total points = 0.269

VP vs. total points = 0.674

VP vs. Opp total points = 0.132

 
All-play or total points is good for on-line/$$$ leagues. But H2H is much more fun for local leagues.
Exactly...The roller coaster ride from week to week. Watching the last play of Monday night football as your win turns to a lose on a meaningless interception at the end of the game. Every lineup choice each week can play a critical part of the outcome of the game. Total score may be the way to go to see who has the best team, but for week in and week out excitement, head to head is the only way to go.
:mellow: :drive:
 

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