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How much of Fantasy Football is Luck? (1 Viewer)

If all owners draft equally balanced teams, how much luck is involved, due to injuries, trades, bust

  • Less than 25%

    Votes: 14 10.1%
  • 26% to 50%

    Votes: 44 31.7%
  • 51% to 75%

    Votes: 52 37.4%
  • 76% to 100%

    Votes: 29 20.9%

  • Total voters
    139
So question to the 50%+ luck people:

Can anyone call themselves good at fantasy?

If over half of the reason you win is because it simply fell your way you cant take credit for being lucky can you?
I think sustained success shows skill. If you're constantly making the playoffs in your leagues year after year, you're doing something right. It takes some luck to get there, but to be able to do it consistently, IMO, is what seperates the players with skill and the ones with luck.
It is a case of "perception equals reality". If you consistently make the playoffs, others around you will think of you as being good and, therefore, you are. But the reality in it is you just happened to be on the right side of things in the midst of a million variables that happened to line up a certain way.

None of us are "good" at fantasy. We are just active participants. Those of us that participate more than others probably end up appearing better because we have more exposure but there is absolutely no skill in anything I do in a fantasy league that denotes my ability to do anything more than manage what I have.

People that are good at fantasy would probably make good shop keepers, business managers, etc. That is the extent of our skill on display.
I think if you are consistently one of the top teams in your league or in multiple leagues, you're obviously doing something right. Yes, there is still luck involved, but the preparedness that goes into each week of the season, is where you can use your skill. Doing research before the draft, reading up on guys during the season, working the WW, etc. Those are things good fantasy players do. Sure, you can luck into the next big WW wonder, but by doing research and staying on top of things, you put yourself in a better position to succeed.

 
I'm going to go with too much. I finished 3rd (2pts less than 2nd) in points scored and 10th (12 man league) in the rankings.

3rd place finisher and going to the playoffs was 11th in points scored. Even the last place team outscored him.

:(

 
I'm going to go with too much. I finished 3rd (2pts less than 2nd) in points scored and 10th (12 man league) in the rankings.

3rd place finisher and going to the playoffs was 11th in points scored. Even the last place team outscored him.

:(
Usually balances out but every once and a while it doesnt.

I know of a league that goes with:

12 Teams - 2 Conferences

Each conference gets 2 teams in the playoffs and then top 2 points scored from the rest of the field

 
So question to the 50%+ luck people:

Can anyone call themselves good at fantasy?

If over half of the reason you win is because it simply fell your way you cant take credit for being lucky can you?
I think sustained success shows skill. If you're constantly making the playoffs in your leagues year after year, you're doing something right. It takes some luck to get there, but to be able to do it consistently, IMO, is what seperates the players with skill and the ones with luck.
It is a case of "perception equals reality". If you consistently make the playoffs, others around you will think of you as being good and, therefore, you are. But the reality in it is you just happened to be on the right side of things in the midst of a million variables that happened to line up a certain way.

None of us are "good" at fantasy. We are just active participants. Those of us that participate more than others probably end up appearing better because we have more exposure but there is absolutely no skill in anything I do in a fantasy league that denotes my ability to do anything more than manage what I have.

People that are good at fantasy would probably make good shop keepers, business managers, etc. That is the extent of our skill on display.
I think if you are consistently one of the top teams in your league or in multiple leagues, you're obviously doing something right. Yes, there is still luck involved, but the preparedness that goes into each week of the season, is where you can use your skill. Doing research before the draft, reading up on guys during the season, working the WW, etc. Those are things good fantasy players do. Sure, you can luck into the next big WW wonder, but by doing research and staying on top of things, you put yourself in a better position to succeed.
What you (and others) are saying makes sense and to be honest I would like to think that too because I am one of these guys that has played for many years and I tend to always make the playoffs, always have a team in contention, active on Waivers and finding nuggets, and all that good stuff. So I would like to think I am "good" at it. I think most of my league mates would give a tip of the hat and say that.

However, the other edge of that sword is "I have played for many years" etc, etc, and I have seen SO many things happened where you just end up saying "that was luck". All those "that guy shouldn't even be in the playoffs", "that guys shouldn't have MISSED the playoffs", too many "this guy only won because he had the waiver dibs on player "x"",. Just on and on to the degree that you realize that the amount of effort and sticktoitiveness that you can possibly put into it pales in comparison to how a multitude of things you can't possibly have any influence over is what really makes or breaks your whole season.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've seen the scenario where best team all year long flops on that ONE game and costs them everything, or that one blown call on the field let's team A in and kills team B and changes everything as far as who would have won, and on and on.

I bet you right now, this year, there are fantasy owners out there that can tell you EXACTLY how that obvious blown call that gave Percy Harvin a TD about two months ago when he stepped out of bounds clearly...how it affected the outcome of that league. That's not skill. That's the random luck of a blown call or an interpretation of one. Just like the randomness of who played who that day in H2H or whatnot.

Just my thoughts. I'd like to think I'm good but sometimes it's better to be lucky.

At this point, in fantasy football, the only Luck I am interested in is Andrew Luck. That guy has the skill to make my fantasy team good.

 
So question to the 50%+ luck people:

Can anyone call themselves good at fantasy?

If over half of the reason you win is because it simply fell your way you cant take credit for being lucky can you?
I think sustained success shows skill. If you're constantly making the playoffs in your leagues year after year, you're doing something right. It takes some luck to get there, but to be able to do it consistently, IMO, is what seperates the players with skill and the ones with luck.
It is a case of "perception equals reality". If you consistently make the playoffs, others around you will think of you as being good and, therefore, you are. But the reality in it is you just happened to be on the right side of things in the midst of a million variables that happened to line up a certain way.

None of us are "good" at fantasy. We are just active participants. Those of us that participate more than others probably end up appearing better because we have more exposure but there is absolutely no skill in anything I do in a fantasy league that denotes my ability to do anything more than manage what I have.

People that are good at fantasy would probably make good shop keepers, business managers, etc. That is the extent of our skill on display.
I think if you are consistently one of the top teams in your league or in multiple leagues, you're obviously doing something right. Yes, there is still luck involved, but the preparedness that goes into each week of the season, is where you can use your skill. Doing research before the draft, reading up on guys during the season, working the WW, etc. Those are things good fantasy players do. Sure, you can luck into the next big WW wonder, but by doing research and staying on top of things, you put yourself in a better position to succeed.
What you (and others) are saying makes sense and to be honest I would like to think that too because I am one of these guys that has played for many years and I tend to always make the playoffs, always have a team in contention, active on Waivers and finding nuggets, and all that good stuff. So I would like to think I am "good" at it. I think most of my league mates would give a tip of the hat and say that.

However, the other edge of that sword is "I have played for many years" etc, etc, and I have seen SO many things happened where you just end up saying "that was luck". All those "that guy shouldn't even be in the playoffs", "that guys shouldn't have MISSED the playoffs", too many "this guy only won because he had the waiver dibs on player "x"",. Just on and on to the degree that you realize that the amount of effort and sticktoitiveness that you can possibly put into it pales in comparison to how a multitude of things you can't possibly have any influence over is what really makes or breaks your whole season.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've seen the scenario where best team all year long flops on that ONE game and costs them everything, or that one blown call on the field let's team A in and kills team B and changes everything as far as who would have won, and on and on.

I bet you right now, this year, there are fantasy owners out there that can tell you EXACTLY how that obvious blown call that gave Percy Harvin a TD about two months ago when he stepped out of bounds clearly...how it affected the outcome of that league. That's not skill. That's the random luck of a blown call or an interpretation of one. Just like the randomness of who played who that day in H2H or whatnot.

Just my thoughts. I'd like to think I'm good but sometimes it's better to be lucky.

At this point, in fantasy football, the only Luck I am interested in is Andrew Luck. That guy has the skill to make my fantasy team good.
I don't disagree with all those points.

But to me, I consider myself a good fantasy player. Sure, there were some weeks this year and my leagues were I got lucky and was able to get a win. But in the last 2 years that I've been in all 4 of these leagues, I've made the payoffs in all 4 leagues both years, the seminals 7 of 8 times and won 3 championships last year. Was there luck involved in some of that? Sure there was and I admitted as much during the season to my leaguemates. But to be able to do it all again this season, again, it took some luck, but I felt like I've put myself in position to get some luck. By doing the extra research, by reading stuff on here to get ideas and opinions, to reading all sorts of fantasy sites, etc. That's where I think the skill seperates itself from the luck.

Sure there is still randomness and luck involved. For instance, in one of my dynasty leagues last week, I was down by 36 going into MNF with only Julio left. I ended up winning. I was lucky to get the win. But, I feel my skill put me in position to get there making the playoffs and having solid players on my team. I think week to week winning takes luck, but overall sustained success in your leagues, that's a skill.

 
Poker is a miserable analogy here.

In poker I can choose not to play any hand at any given time, often at no cost to myself, after processing in many cases several pieces of information (action ahead of me, my own hole cards, stack sizes/style of play of players behind me, etc.) I can also exert pressure in a hand - many things happen during a given hand of poker that I have full control over. The only things I can't control are how the villain(s) react and what cards are flopped/turned/rivered. But over the course of a hand, I can change my strategy in any number of ways to compensate for those uncontrollable actions.

In fantasy football, I can't look at a given matchup and say ####, my guys all play on the road in the snow this week against top 10 defenses, and my opponent has a bunch of weak ### matchups in Florida and in domes, and decide not to play my game that week. I also have zero control over what happens once my lineup is locked and a game starts. A blowout takes a stud RB out of the game flow. An injury to one of my starters midway through the first quarter. Andy Reid. Two of my top 3 picks go down with injuries effectively wiping out their seasons (happened last year with Rodgers and Julio.) All things being equal, FF is 70-80% luck and I would call poker 50% luck. Either way, they are apples and oranges when it comes to how they play out.
Well, I wasn't comparing the games themselves, just the role that variance (luck) plays in those games. Which I stand by.

Yes, sometimes 2-7 will beat AA in Texas Hold 'Em.

Yes, sometimes the worst team in fantasy will beat the best team.

But, over enough time, a quality poker player will beat his weaker opponent a majority of the time, as will a quality fantasy player.

As Matt Damon famously states in Rounders:

"Why do you think the same 5 guys make the final table of the World Series of Poker every year? What are they, the luckiest guys in Vegas?

It's a skill game, Jo."

 
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I dont believe it is much luck at all. I have won the championship two years in a row in a competitive 12 man re draft league, and am a combined 21-3 in four leagues this year. Its about doing pre draft research and staying up on the inseason news and active on the waiver wire always looking to improve even if youre undefeated
I don't buy this. There is a TON of luck involved in FF, especially in H2H formats......You can lower the luck percentage by being prepared for the draft, and working the WW, but no matter how prepared you are, you don't have a crystal ball.

 
I dont believe it is much luck at all. I have won the championship two years in a row in a competitive 12 man re draft league, and am a combined 21-3 in four leagues this year. Its about doing pre draft research and staying up on the inseason news and active on the waiver wire always looking to improve even if youre undefeated
I don't buy this. There is a TON of luck involved in FF, especially in H2H formats......You can lower the luck percentage by being prepared for the draft, and working the WW, but no matter how prepared you are, you don't have a crystal ball.
I can't disagree more than people talking about so much luck involved in Fantasy Football. Just because something unlikely happens does not mean someone is lucky or unlucky it simply means that the universe is working. Everything goes back to statistics and just because we don't know all the variables in the equation does not mean its just luck then.

Are you unlucky when your car doesn't start in the morning, to equate it to fantasy football even though you read up on your vehicle (research of players/teams), did the needed maintenance (filter through waiver wires and trade offers), and had a perfectly working vehicle the night before (#1 scoring team in the league)?

I would say things do happen randomly at times but it is neither luck nor a curse, its just simply how the world works. Also while the guy next door who never checks his oil even can have a working car that same morning (hence winning the FF game that week) doesn't mean he still doesn't have an engine with some sludge sapping his RPMs (#12 scoring FF team) and isn't the worse car owner (FF owner).

PS - like how we are not able to predict if Aaron Rodgers is injured that week we also can't predict a belt breaking on our car because a little factory in China had some bad rubber composite the day they made your belt

 
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I think what makes some people better at this than others is things like paying attention to SOS and watching what CB your WR is matched up against in a certain week . Having foresight and picking up handcuffs or paying attention to defensive matchups EVERY WEEK . Not just throwing your guys in every week without research. Putting in the homework and watching the little details that the people in Vegas do. If you do the little things week in and week out you have a much higher chance of succeeding consistently.Predicting who will be the hot waiver wire guy BEFORE he goes off and becomes the hot commodity that week . Bottom line is if you take FF seriously and not just a past time you will do better than the guy who just plays for the heck of it.

 
I dont believe it is much luck at all. I have won the championship two years in a row in a competitive 12 man re draft league, and am a combined 21-3 in four leagues this year. Its about doing pre draft research and staying up on the inseason news and active on the waiver wire always looking to improve even if youre undefeated
I don't buy this. There is a TON of luck involved in FF, especially in H2H formats......You can lower the luck percentage by being prepared for the draft, and working the WW, but no matter how prepared you are, you don't have a crystal ball.
I can't disagree more than people talking about so much luck involved in Fantasy Football. Just because something unlikely happens does not mean someone is lucky or unlucky it simply means that the universe is working. Everything goes back to statistics and just because we don't know all the variables in the equation does not mean its just luck then.

Are you unlucky when your car doesn't start in the morning, to equate it to fantasy football even though you read up on your vehicle (research of players/teams), did the needed maintenance (filter through waiver wires and trade offers), and had a perfectly working vehicle the night before (#1 scoring team in the league)?

I would say things do happen randomly at times but it is neither luck nor a curse, its just simply how the world works. Also while the guy next door who never checks his oil even can have a working car that same morning (hence winning the FF game that week) doesn't mean he still doesn't have an engine with some sludge sapping his RPMs (#12 scoring FF team) and isn't the worse car owner (FF owner).

PS - like how we are not able to predict if Aaron Rodgers is injured that week we also can't predict a belt breaking on our car because a little factory in China had some bad rubber composite the day they made your belt
meh, believe what you want. Like I said, there are ways to lessen the luck involved like total points instead of H2H, victory points, etc........But H2H has a lot of luck involved, period........Of course, I'm not really a guy who has an ego about FF. I'll put my time in, and field a good team, but at the end of the day, its more about the people in my league..........Now, when it comes to fly fishing and hunting......mostly skill, with a little luck sprinkled in.......My point is, any schmuck can field a decent FF team with a small amount of research and time spent. Most wont manage their team throughout the year to go far in the playoffs, but it happens enough.....I've seen it plenty.

 
I want to say its mostly skill but in reality its not. Luck plays a HUGE factor in fantasy. You could have been lucky to draft all the top players at each round and be unstoppable right now or you could have drafted AP and montee ball your first 2 picks and your season was over before it even started. You can argue oh well I'm in contention every year so it must be skill. I would disagree. This year in one of my leagues I placed 9 in a 12 man league with the most points scored but just was unlucky almost every week against the opponent I went against. Would lose over just dumb luck things such as a defense getting over 30points or a kicker getting 20+. People that say its skill want to believe it but nobody has a crystal ball. You can't see into the future and say oh, he is going to have a breakout game this week. You can have a hunch and make a move based on it but how many times are your "hunches" correct. Odds are its just a very few and the ones you are wrong at you think nothing less of, but when you hit one such as maybe say starting big Ben the back to back weeks he throws for 12 TDs combined you think its skill when in reality it was just blind luck. Nobody saw it coming and if you say you did why didn't you bet the house on it and make millions? If you are so confident that you saw it coming you should be a millionaire. But in reality it was a hunch and you were not confident and the fact that it played out was just luck! Either way though I love fantasy football and will always play it. Its almost like playing the lottery. The more tickets "leagues" you get into the better your odds are of winning one!

 
I dont believe it is much luck at all. I have won the championship two years in a row in a competitive 12 man re draft league, and am a combined 21-3 in four leagues this year. Its about doing pre draft research and staying up on the inseason news and active on the waiver wire always looking to improve even if youre undefeated
I don't buy this. There is a TON of luck involved in FF, especially in H2H formats......You can lower the luck percentage by being prepared for the draft, and working the WW, but no matter how prepared you are, you don't have a crystal ball.
I can't disagree more than people talking about so much luck involved in Fantasy Football. Just because something unlikely happens does not mean someone is lucky or unlucky it simply means that the universe is working. Everything goes back to statistics and just because we don't know all the variables in the equation does not mean its just luck then.

Are you unlucky when your car doesn't start in the morning, to equate it to fantasy football even though you read up on your vehicle (research of players/teams), did the needed maintenance (filter through waiver wires and trade offers), and had a perfectly working vehicle the night before (#1 scoring team in the league)?

I would say things do happen randomly at times but it is neither luck nor a curse, its just simply how the world works. Also while the guy next door who never checks his oil even can have a working car that same morning (hence winning the FF game that week) doesn't mean he still doesn't have an engine with some sludge sapping his RPMs (#12 scoring FF team) and isn't the worse car owner (FF owner).

PS - like how we are not able to predict if Aaron Rodgers is injured that week we also can't predict a belt breaking on our car because a little factory in China had some bad rubber composite the day they made your belt
That would be a nice analogy but to make it fit the model, your car would have to not start, despite all the preparation, about three times a day because in fantasy we aren't talking about something that happens once every other year. This stuff happens every week of the season in almost every league of any size.
 
I want to say its mostly skill but in reality its not. Luck plays a HUGE factor in fantasy. You could have been lucky to draft all the top players at each round and be unstoppable right now or you could have drafted AP and montee ball your first 2 picks and your season was over before it even started. You can argue oh well I'm in contention every year so it must be skill. I would disagree. This year in one of my leagues I placed 9 in a 12 man league with the most points scored but just was unlucky almost every week against the opponent I went against. Would lose over just dumb luck things such as a defense getting over 30points or a kicker getting 20+. People that say its skill want to believe it but nobody has a crystal ball. You can't see into the future and say oh, he is going to have a breakout game this week. You can have a hunch and make a move based on it but how many times are your "hunches" correct. Odds are its just a very few and the ones you are wrong at you think nothing less of, but when you hit one such as maybe say starting big Ben the back to back weeks he throws for 12 TDs combined you think its skill when in reality it was just blind luck. Nobody saw it coming and if you say you did why didn't you bet the house on it and make millions? If you are so confident that you saw it coming you should be a millionaire. But in reality it was a hunch and you were not confident and the fact that it played out was just luck! Either way though I love fantasy football and will always play it. Its almost like playing the lottery. The more tickets "leagues" you get into the better your odds are of winning one!
If you laughed at the guy for drafting a kicker or defense too soon this is the Fantasy Gods smiting you.

 
I want to say its mostly skill but in reality its not. Luck plays a HUGE factor in fantasy. You could have been lucky to draft all the top players at each round and be unstoppable right now or you could have drafted AP and montee ball your first 2 picks and your season was over before it even started. You can argue oh well I'm in contention every year so it must be skill. I would disagree. This year in one of my leagues I placed 9 in a 12 man league with the most points scored but just was unlucky almost every week against the opponent I went against. Would lose over just dumb luck things such as a defense getting over 30points or a kicker getting 20+. People that say its skill want to believe it but nobody has a crystal ball. You can't see into the future and say oh, he is going to have a breakout game this week. You can have a hunch and make a move based on it but how many times are your "hunches" correct. Odds are its just a very few and the ones you are wrong at you think nothing less of, but when you hit one such as maybe say starting big Ben the back to back weeks he throws for 12 TDs combined you think its skill when in reality it was just blind luck. Nobody saw it coming and if you say you did why didn't you bet the house on it and make millions? If you are so confident that you saw it coming you should be a millionaire. But in reality it was a hunch and you were not confident and the fact that it played out was just luck! Either way though I love fantasy football and will always play it. Its almost like playing the lottery. The more tickets "leagues" you get into the better your odds are of winning one!
If you laughed at the guy for drafting a kicker or defense too soon this is the Fantasy Gods smiting you.
It really is. I posted in what we have learned this year and what I learned is I'm going to be one of the first people to pick a kicker. Colts or patriots kickers are money almost every year. Defense is still blind luck. Just play matchups and hope for the best. Impossible to predict that the eagles would score touchdowns like crazy on special teams. Everyone thought Seattle would be number 1 and they just started to get things together.

 
RealReactions said:
I Am the Stig said:
RealReactions said:
I want to say its mostly skill but in reality its not. Luck plays a HUGE factor in fantasy. You could have been lucky to draft all the top players at each round and be unstoppable right now or you could have drafted AP and montee ball your first 2 picks and your season was over before it even started. You can argue oh well I'm in contention every year so it must be skill. I would disagree. This year in one of my leagues I placed 9 in a 12 man league with the most points scored but just was unlucky almost every week against the opponent I went against. Would lose over just dumb luck things such as a defense getting over 30points or a kicker getting 20+. People that say its skill want to believe it but nobody has a crystal ball. You can't see into the future and say oh, he is going to have a breakout game this week. You can have a hunch and make a move based on it but how many times are your "hunches" correct. Odds are its just a very few and the ones you are wrong at you think nothing less of, but when you hit one such as maybe say starting big Ben the back to back weeks he throws for 12 TDs combined you think its skill when in reality it was just blind luck. Nobody saw it coming and if you say you did why didn't you bet the house on it and make millions? If you are so confident that you saw it coming you should be a millionaire. But in reality it was a hunch and you were not confident and the fact that it played out was just luck! Either way though I love fantasy football and will always play it. Its almost like playing the lottery. The more tickets "leagues" you get into the better your odds are of winning one!
If you laughed at the guy for drafting a kicker or defense too soon this is the Fantasy Gods smiting you.
It really is. I posted in what we have learned this year and what I learned is I'm going to be one of the first people to pick a kicker. Colts or patriots kickers are money almost every year. Defense is still blind luck. Just play matchups and hope for the best. Impossible to predict that the eagles would score touchdowns like crazy on special teams. Everyone thought Seattle would be number 1 and they just started to get things together.
HA! I still take them earlier than is ever promoted and sometimes I hit and sometimes I miss :) But the season needs to play out a bit to get a feel for how the matchups will pan out for streaming purposes. I've been hoarding defenses based on matchups for the last three weeks now.

 
I'm sure its been said in this thread already, but when P. Manning scores a total of 2pts. any given week, particularly in playoffs, you will have been quite lucky to be the opponent regardless of how well you think you managed your team up to that point (and no, I'm not a PFM owner).

 
I'm sure its been said in this thread already, but when P. Manning scores a total of 2pts. any given week, particularly in playoffs, you will have been quite lucky to be the opponent regardless of how well you think you managed your team up to that point (and no, I'm not a PFM owner).
that was the equivalent to an injury

 
I'm sure its been said in this thread already, but when P. Manning scores a total of 2pts. any given week, particularly in playoffs, you will have been quite lucky to be the opponent regardless of how well you think you managed your team up to that point (and no, I'm not a PFM owner).
Or, as I stated earlier in this thread, when viewed through the prism that Manning was down two of his favorite weapons, playing against a legit defense, and an attempt at adapting to a ball control running game for December a lower than projected point total is not unexpected. Two points is extreme, but that was more due to game flow. Take away his two pics and his points based on his season low, and perhaps game planned 20 attempts would have been 6-12 points.

In other words, welcome to Fantasy Football 1980's style.

 
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Skoo said:
Poker is a miserable analogy here.

In poker I can choose not to play any hand at any given time, often at no cost to myself, after processing in many cases several pieces of information (action ahead of me, my own hole cards, stack sizes/style of play of players behind me, etc.) I can also exert pressure in a hand - many things happen during a given hand of poker that I have full control over. The only things I can't control are how the villain(s) react and what cards are flopped/turned/rivered. But over the course of a hand, I can change my strategy in any number of ways to compensate for those uncontrollable actions.

In fantasy football, I can't look at a given matchup and say ####, my guys all play on the road in the snow this week against top 10 defenses, and my opponent has a bunch of weak ### matchups in Florida and in domes, and decide not to play my game that week. I also have zero control over what happens once my lineup is locked and a game starts. A blowout takes a stud RB out of the game flow. An injury to one of my starters midway through the first quarter. Andy Reid. Two of my top 3 picks go down with injuries effectively wiping out their seasons (happened last year with Rodgers and Julio.) All things being equal, FF is 70-80% luck and I would call poker 50% luck. Either way, they are apples and oranges when it comes to how they play out.
Well, I wasn't comparing the games themselves, just the role that variance (luck) plays in those games. Which I stand by.

Yes, sometimes 2-7 will beat AA in Texas Hold 'Em.

Yes, sometimes the worst team in fantasy will beat the best team.

But, over enough time, a quality poker player will beat his weaker opponent a majority of the time, as will a quality fantasy player.

As Matt Damon famously states in Rounders:

"Why do you think the same 5 guys make the final table of the World Series of Poker every year? What are they, the luckiest guys in Vegas?

It's a skill game, Jo."
Haven't watched the World Series of Poker in the last dozen years?

Anyway, I understand and largely agree that number of seasons generally allows us the see the most skillful players.

 
BustedKnuckles said:
I think what makes some people better at this than others is things like paying attention to SOS and watching what CB your WR is matched up against in a certain week . Having foresight and picking up handcuffs or paying attention to defensive matchups EVERY WEEK . Not just throwing your guys in every week without research. Putting in the homework and watching the little details that the people in Vegas do. If you do the little things week in and week out you have a much higher chance of succeeding consistently.Predicting who will be the hot waiver wire guy BEFORE he goes off and becomes the hot commodity that week . Bottom line is if you take FF seriously and not just a past time you will do better than the guy who just plays for the heck of it.
Sure.

having your star qb get run off the road is pure bad luck. Seeing him have a bad game against the Rams or Seahawks would not have been luck.

 
BustedKnuckles said:
I think what makes some people better at this than others is things like paying attention to SOS and watching what CB your WR is matched up against in a certain week . Having foresight and picking up handcuffs or paying attention to defensive matchups EVERY WEEK . Not just throwing your guys in every week without research. Putting in the homework and watching the little details that the people in Vegas do. If you do the little things week in and week out you have a much higher chance of succeeding consistently.Predicting who will be the hot waiver wire guy BEFORE he goes off and becomes the hot commodity that week . Bottom line is if you take FF seriously and not just a past time you will do better than the guy who just plays for the heck of it.
Sure.

having your star qb get run off the road is pure bad luck. Seeing him have a bad game against the Rams or Seahawks would not have been luck.
did you plan ahead? do you have a good back up? did you scour the waiver wire for a QB with a nice matchup?

 
BustedKnuckles said:
I think what makes some people better at this than others is things like paying attention to SOS and watching what CB your WR is matched up against in a certain week . Having foresight and picking up handcuffs or paying attention to defensive matchups EVERY WEEK . Not just throwing your guys in every week without research. Putting in the homework and watching the little details that the people in Vegas do. If you do the little things week in and week out you have a much higher chance of succeeding consistently.Predicting who will be the hot waiver wire guy BEFORE he goes off and becomes the hot commodity that week . Bottom line is if you take FF seriously and not just a past time you will do better than the guy who just plays for the heck of it.
Sure.having your star qb get run off the road is pure bad luck. Seeing him have a bad game against the Rams or Seahawks would not have been luck.
did you plan ahead? do you have a good back up? did you scour the waiver wire for a QB with a nice matchup?
Of course. Tannehill will suffice and i picked up anderson. Doesn't change the fact that losing a guy you expect to score well this week is unlucky.Otoh, it is luckier than losing him early in the game.

 
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BustedKnuckles said:
I think what makes some people better at this than others is things like paying attention to SOS and watching what CB your WR is matched up against in a certain week . Having foresight and picking up handcuffs or paying attention to defensive matchups EVERY WEEK . Not just throwing your guys in every week without research. Putting in the homework and watching the little details that the people in Vegas do. If you do the little things week in and week out you have a much higher chance of succeeding consistently.Predicting who will be the hot waiver wire guy BEFORE he goes off and becomes the hot commodity that week . Bottom line is if you take FF seriously and not just a past time you will do better than the guy who just plays for the heck of it.
Sure.

having your star qb get run off the road is pure bad luck. Seeing him have a bad game against the Rams or Seahawks would not have been luck.
did you plan ahead? do you have a good back up? did you scour the waiver wire for a QB with a nice matchup?
Let's be honest. Buffalo's defense has been playing great... but the one game they matched up against an elite qb, they got shredded. And Peyton has been the most reliable player in FF over the past 2, 3 seasons. 10/10 times you start him, even if he is playing the Seahawks. Unless you are in a 2 person league in which you own Rodgers, Luck, and Manning, under what circumstances do you consider 30 other QBs better than Manning? How exactly do you mitigate "game flow?" Ya, DT was dinged and Julius was coming back from injury. But DT was starting, and the latter was active. Even without them, surely 0% of the FF community expected Manning to be the 31st best QB last Sunday. It was a fluke, plain and simple.

Edit: Bleh, quoted the wrong comment.

 
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BustedKnuckles said:
I think what makes some people better at this than others is things like paying attention to SOS and watching what CB your WR is matched up against in a certain week . Having foresight and picking up handcuffs or paying attention to defensive matchups EVERY WEEK . Not just throwing your guys in every week without research. Putting in the homework and watching the little details that the people in Vegas do. If you do the little things week in and week out you have a much higher chance of succeeding consistently.Predicting who will be the hot waiver wire guy BEFORE he goes off and becomes the hot commodity that week . Bottom line is if you take FF seriously and not just a past time you will do better than the guy who just plays for the heck of it.
Sure.having your star qb get run off the road is pure bad luck. Seeing him have a bad game against the Rams or Seahawks would not have been luck.
did you plan ahead? do you have a good back up? did you scour the waiver wire for a QB with a nice matchup?
Let's be honest. Buffalo's defense has been playing great... but the one game they matched up against an elite qb, they got shredded. And Peyton has been the most reliable player in FF over the past 2, 3 seasons. 10/10 times you start him, even if he is playing the Seahawks. Unless you are in a 2 person league in which you own Rodgers, Luck, and Manning, under what circumstances do you consider 30 other QBs better than Manning? How exactly do you mitigate "game flow?" Ya, DT was dinged and Julius was coming back from injury. But DT was starting, and the latter was active. Even without them, surely 0% of the FF community expected Manning to be the 31st best QB last Sunday. It was a fluke, plain and simple.

Edit: Bleh, quoted the wrong comment.
Even the great Peyton Manning will have a dud game. This doesn't make a person unlucky to have started them again this just means stasticially things are even out towards the average. It just happens Peyton's average is a heck of a lot higher than Gino Smith.If you ask Peyton do you think he would respond yup it's all luck out there today?

Do you think the Owner of the Broncos had control on what happened? Is it luck for him? He actually did less about Peyton starting for his team than anyone. He only potentially said yes we can pay Peyton X amount. He also likely only had control over hiring Elway who then hired those putting any gameplan in place.

PS- Luck would not have an explanation like Justin made. While its out of the norm by far I attach luck to things with no explanation why things fall your way.

 
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BustedKnuckles said:
I think what makes some people better at this than others is things like paying attention to SOS and watching what CB your WR is matched up against in a certain week . Having foresight and picking up handcuffs or paying attention to defensive matchups EVERY WEEK . Not just throwing your guys in every week without research. Putting in the homework and watching the little details that the people in Vegas do. If you do the little things week in and week out you have a much higher chance of succeeding consistently.Predicting who will be the hot waiver wire guy BEFORE he goes off and becomes the hot commodity that week . Bottom line is if you take FF seriously and not just a past time you will do better than the guy who just plays for the heck of it.
Sure.

having your star qb get run off the road is pure bad luck. Seeing him have a bad game against the Rams or Seahawks would not have been luck.
did you plan ahead? do you have a good back up? did you scour the waiver wire for a QB with a nice matchup?
Let's be honest. Buffalo's defense has been playing great... but the one game they matched up against an elite qb, they got shredded. And Peyton has been the most reliable player in FF over the past 2, 3 seasons. 10/10 times you start him, even if he is playing the Seahawks. Unless you are in a 2 person league in which you own Rodgers, Luck, and Manning, under what circumstances do you consider 30 other QBs better than Manning? How exactly do you mitigate "game flow?" Ya, DT was dinged and Julius was coming back from injury. But DT was starting, and the latter was active. Even without them, surely 0% of the FF community expected Manning to be the 31st best QB last Sunday. It was a fluke, plain and simple.

Edit: Bleh, quoted the wrong comment.
It wasn't a "fluke". DT was a decoy at best. Sure, you don't know that going in but in context Manning's performance makes sense. Calvin Johnson burned owners earlier in the year when he was started injured and used the same way. But, taking all those factors into account it is not a fluke that Manning performed below his projected points.

Nobody ever says it is "luck" when a player over performs. Instead they say things like "beast mode", "machine", or "elite". A good player gets hot and takes advantage of a good matchup and game flow conditions.

Again, "Luck" is nothing more than how you personally feel about and justify the outcome.

 
BustedKnuckles said:
I think what makes some people better at this than others is things like paying attention to SOS and watching what CB your WR is matched up against in a certain week . Having foresight and picking up handcuffs or paying attention to defensive matchups EVERY WEEK . Not just throwing your guys in every week without research. Putting in the homework and watching the little details that the people in Vegas do. If you do the little things week in and week out you have a much higher chance of succeeding consistently.Predicting who will be the hot waiver wire guy BEFORE he goes off and becomes the hot commodity that week . Bottom line is if you take FF seriously and not just a past time you will do better than the guy who just plays for the heck of it.
Sure.having your star qb get run off the road is pure bad luck. Seeing him have a bad game against the Rams or Seahawks would not have been luck.
did you plan ahead? do you have a good back up? did you scour the waiver wire for a QB with a nice matchup?
Of course. Tannehill will suffice and i picked up anderson. Doesn't change the fact that losing a guy you expect to score well this week is unlucky.Otoh, it is luckier than losing him early in the game.
look ,im not saying luck is`nt a factor,that would be foolish. Im saying one can prepare for bad luck and ease the outcome if even just a bit. Some things are completely out of our control.

 
Luck is a big factor. Weird things happen in the NFL game to game, and year to year. But, after every bad year I can see the mistakes I made in drafting too. An example is last week; Brees had his worst game of the year against a Carolina team that was a good match-up on paper and it bounced me from the playoffs. However, in hindsight it was clear that I should of taken Rodgers over Brees to begin with and my season would be a whole lot different. A new O-coordinator, the loss of Sproles and the fact the Drew is getting older and was hurt most of preseason were big red flashing warning signs that I didn't fully take into account. So that was on me.

 
I'm making a playoff run in large part due to odell Beckham who I only have because cooks was gone and a team before me took Hyde, and Andre Williams who was included by the other team in an unsolicited offer.

This happens more than some would want to believe.
This is a great point.

Any format that allows one owner to exclusively own a player injects more luck into the equation. And making the selection process a draft (further eliminating owners from having the opportunity to acquire certain players) just increases the luck involved.

LeSean McCoy is the 9th ranked RB in total points and the 14th ranked RB in per game points.

Chances are that EVERYONE in your league had him in the top 3 at RB. Meaning that literally every owner in the league would take him if they had, say, the 1.7 pick and he slipped that far.

But if he was already gone, they might take D.Murray, Calvin, J.Graham, Lacy, etc.

So 12 guys agree that he would be the pick at 1.7 if he lasted that long. But every one of those guys would be wrong in terms of the expectation versus realization, correct? Yet only one owner, the guy who actually picked McCoy, suffers the let down of that miss on McCoy. The owner picking at 1.7 actually benefits from the 1.3 owner taking McCoy because he gets D.Murray instead, even though he, just like the 1.3 owner had McCoy over Murray in his rankings.

So, in a system where the skill of the players is largely equal, luck is playing a huge role in the outcomes.

Even in dynasty, I don't know that luck really lessens all that much. The 2009 NFL first round WR's were DHB, M.Crabtree, J.Maclin, P.Harvin, H.Nicks and K.Britt. That's six NFL first rounders and every one of them should have been on dynasty rosters that fall. So that means we all should have had a ranking for them. So here we are finishing up the 5th season for these guys and is anyone really wanting to crow about how their skill allowed them to ferret out lasting and reliable value over the past 4 years from that list? I was high on Nicks, but it was more about acquisition costs because I knew that Crabtree would cost more than Nicks. I would have jumped on Crabtree at the Nicks price given the opportunity. But I sure thought I was a genius early on for getting Nicks cheaper. Now, not so much. Because over the last 5 years, Nicks hasn't consistently paid dividends. In fact, I think you could argue that his holding costs have actually been a net negative because at some point you probably relied on him at season's start to be a starter for you and got burned.

Even the guy who landed M.Wallace, who was taken in the 3rd round (of the same NFL draft), can't really get to uppity. He's gotten more out of Wallace the last two years than a Nicks owner has. But there is also the holding costs associated with Wallace. What did the Wallace owner NOT do thinking that Wallace in Miami should at least be a safe WR2 for his team? And look at what injuries have done to Crabtree, Maclin, Harvin, Nicks and Britt just in terms of availability to even be in your lineup at all, not to mention how those injuries could have changed their career arcs.

So I'm just not seeing where luck is being lessened all that much in dynasty. Sure, dynasty lets you hang on to your hits. But is that really lessening luck...or just letting you enjoy the after glow a little longer when good luck strikes?

When it comes down to it, we really don't keep good records on how many hits we have compared to our own misses, much less any disciplined record keeping of our opponents' hits and misses. So then, how do we really know how much skill is involved to begin with?

The house in Vegas makes it's money over the long haul, right. But it isn't really so much time as it is the volume of transactions. I seriously question how finely we can define skill given the amount and nature of transactions we actually engage in. If I am not also being punished in my win column, points total or all-play record for having McCoy ranked over Murray like the McCoy owner is, how much can I really trust any assessment of our relative skill based on win column, total points or all-play record?

 
Luck is a big factor. Weird things happen in the NFL game to game, and year to year. But, after every bad year I can see the mistakes I made in drafting too. An example is last week; Brees had his worst game of the year against a Carolina team that was a good match-up on paper and it bounced me from the playoffs. However, in hindsight it was clear that I should of taken Rodgers over Brees to begin with and my season would be a whole lot different. A new O-coordinator, the loss of Sproles and the fact the Drew is getting older and was hurt most of preseason were big red flashing warning signs that I didn't fully take into account. So that was on me.
You mean like when Manning changed teams, thereby playing with a new O-coordinator, being older and seriously hurt prior to that season?

So then, is it all about Sproles, because other QB's have lit it up coming back from injury, changing teams and OC's and getting older and past their prime?

I don't know. Which is why hindsight isn't as good a teacher as we make it out to be, primarily because we don't apply it with any discipline.

Has anyone ever studied O-coordinator changes and the impact on QB's in any disciplined way? Or is it just that this one time you remember when that one QB had an OC change and he then had a disappointing year so you've decided that an OC change generally means a negative impact on the QB's stats the next year. That is, unless Mike Martz is your new OC. Well, and you're in St. Louis with **** Vermeil as the HC and you have Marshall Faulk, Tory Holt and Isaac Bruce at your skill positions. And Kurt Warner. Well, Kurt Warner circa his early St. Louis Rams days. Not so keen on the Warner from his last year or so in St. Louis. Or the one from the New York Giants.

The system of variables which produce player stats in the NFL is incredibly complex. I don't know that any of these simplistic truisms we toss around here are that meaningful. Does a talented WR2 help or hurt a talented WR1? Yes. The answer is "yes". And, the answer is "no". Sometime it does, and sometimes it doesn't. But because the stat outcomes in the box score depend on so many variables other than "a better WR2 was added this off-season", we can't really isolate the impact of that detail alone.

The problem is we think these truisms can be predictive when broadly applied. But the results at the end of the season are produced by many variables, not just that one.

 
BustedKnuckles said:
I think what makes some people better at this than others is things like paying attention to SOS and watching what CB your WR is matched up against in a certain week . Having foresight and picking up handcuffs or paying attention to defensive matchups EVERY WEEK . Not just throwing your guys in every week without research. Putting in the homework and watching the little details that the people in Vegas do. If you do the little things week in and week out you have a much higher chance of succeeding consistently.Predicting who will be the hot waiver wire guy BEFORE he goes off and becomes the hot commodity that week . Bottom line is if you take FF seriously and not just a past time you will do better than the guy who just plays for the heck of it.
Sure.having your star qb get run off the road is pure bad luck. Seeing him have a bad game against the Rams or Seahawks would not have been luck.
did you plan ahead? do you have a good back up? did you scour the waiver wire for a QB with a nice matchup?
Let's be honest. Buffalo's defense has been playing great... but the one game they matched up against an elite qb, they got shredded. And Peyton has been the most reliable player in FF over the past 2, 3 seasons. 10/10 times you start him, even if he is playing the Seahawks. Unless you are in a 2 person league in which you own Rodgers, Luck, and Manning, under what circumstances do you consider 30 other QBs better than Manning? How exactly do you mitigate "game flow?" Ya, DT was dinged and Julius was coming back from injury. But DT was starting, and the latter was active. Even without them, surely 0% of the FF community expected Manning to be the 31st best QB last Sunday. It was a fluke, plain and simple.

Edit: Bleh, quoted the wrong comment.
Even the great Peyton Manning will have a dud game. This doesn't make a person unlucky to have started them again this just means stasticially things are even out towards the average. It just happens Peyton's average is a heck of a lot higher than Gino Smith.If you ask Peyton do you think he would respond yup it's all luck out there today?

Do you think the Owner of the Broncos had control on what happened? Is it luck for him? He actually did less about Peyton starting for his team than anyone. He only potentially said yes we can pay Peyton X amount. He also likely only had control over hiring Elway who then hired those putting any gameplan in place.

PS- Luck would not have an explanation like Justin made. While its out of the norm by far I attach luck to things with no explanation why things fall your way.
If you ask him if completing that pass is more luck or skill, he would probably say skill (and preparation).

If you ask him if it was luck or skill to be born with the physical talent to even be in that position to attempt the throw, he would say luck.

So then, is completing that pass more luck or skill?

Most players will talk about how fortunate they were to get to play the game at that level.

It all depends on how broad or narrow you frame the question.

BustedKnuckles said:
I think what makes some people better at this than others is things like paying attention to SOS and watching what CB your WR is matched up against in a certain week . Having foresight and picking up handcuffs or paying attention to defensive matchups EVERY WEEK . Not just throwing your guys in every week without research. Putting in the homework and watching the little details that the people in Vegas do. If you do the little things week in and week out you have a much higher chance of succeeding consistently.Predicting who will be the hot waiver wire guy BEFORE he goes off and becomes the hot commodity that week . Bottom line is if you take FF seriously and not just a past time you will do better than the guy who just plays for the heck of it.
Sure.

having your star qb get run off the road is pure bad luck. Seeing him have a bad game against the Rams or Seahawks would not have been luck.
did you plan ahead? do you have a good back up? did you scour the waiver wire for a QB with a nice matchup?
Did you handcuff Ball with Hillman and C.J. Anderson?

Or did you opt instead to use that roster spot to lock down both Moreno and Miller trying to ensure that you had the starter and back-up at two teams?

Did you lose out on the QB with the better match-up because your waiver wire priority was lower than some other guy who needed a one week QB fill-in that week?

There aren't too many scenarios you can envision involving fantasy football where skill is isolated from luck.

 
Even the great Peyton Manning will have a dud game. This doesn't make a person unlucky to have started them again this just means stasticially things are even out towards the average. It just happens Peyton's average is a heck of a lot higher than Gino Smith.If you ask Peyton do you think he would respond yup it's all luck out there today?

Do you think the Owner of the Broncos had control on what happened? Is it luck for him? He actually did less about Peyton starting for his team than anyone. He only potentially said yes we can pay Peyton X amount. He also likely only had control over hiring Elway who then hired those putting any gameplan in place.

PS- Luck would not have an explanation like Justin made. While its out of the norm by far I attach luck to things with no explanation why things fall your way.
If you ask him if completing that pass is more luck or skill, he would probably say skill (and preparation).

If you ask him if it was luck or skill to be born with the physical talent to even be in that position to attempt the throw, he would say luck.

So then, is completing that pass more luck or skill?

Most players will talk about how fortunate they were to get to play the game at that level.

It all depends on how broad or narrow you frame the question.
Except a wide majority of NFL Players would point back to GOD as the reason they have the ability and fortune to play in the NFL? So is it really luck or are they grateful to GOD for giving them the ability and life to do so?

Also if you don't believe in GOD and want to go scientific it again is not luck. Is it luck to have brown hair? Is it luck to be 6'4 tall? Nope its called genetics... Also is it luck that Manning is born to Archie Manning (another NFL QB) to help develop him and strive for greatness? Nope again Peyton wouldn't exist without him...

I'm making a playoff run in large part due to odell Beckham who I only have because cooks was gone and a team before me took Hyde, and Andre Williams who was included by the other team in an unsolicited offer.

This happens more than some would want to believe.
This is a great point.

Any format that allows one owner to exclusively own a player injects more luck into the equation. And making the selection process a draft (further eliminating owners from having the opportunity to acquire certain players) just increases the luck involved.

LeSean McCoy is the 9th ranked RB in total points and the 14th ranked RB in per game points.

Chances are that EVERYONE in your league had him in the top 3 at RB. Meaning that literally every owner in the league would take him if they had, say, the 1.7 pick and he slipped that far.

But if he was already gone, they might take D.Murray, Calvin, J.Graham, Lacy, etc.

So 12 guys agree that he would be the pick at 1.7 if he lasted that long. But every one of those guys would be wrong in terms of the expectation versus realization, correct? Yet only one owner, the guy who actually picked McCoy, suffers the let down of that miss on McCoy. The owner picking at 1.7 actually benefits from the 1.3 owner taking McCoy because he gets D.Murray instead, even though he, just like the 1.3 owner had McCoy over Murray in his rankings.

So, in a system where the skill of the players is largely equal, luck is playing a huge role in the outcomes.
I wont even try to get deep into this one but if we attribute everything in life to luck based on having our primary choice not an option everything is luck.

<example>

I couldn't get into medical school so I opened my own business and now I am a successful businessman so that means my success as a businessman is all luck

Is equivalent to

I couldn't get Cooks in the draft so I drafted Beckham and has lead me to the play-offs so that means my success as a FF owner is all luck

I don't get the thought process of "Everything didnt go exactly like expected so its luck". Think we are spinning the wheels though so checking out of this thread.

PS - FF is so not luck hahaha

 
I guess when you win or lose a game because a star player (or sometimes 2) get knocked out of the game, or suspended prior to a game, or drops a pass that would have decided a game, or has an uncharacteristic game, or due to whatever unforeseen or unlikely circumstances that may occur, you could call yourself lucky or unlucky. Whether luck is just a perception of how an event has turned out is debatable I guess, but it's still an appropriate term. Whether you use the terms fortunate or unfortunate or fortune or misfortune it all means the same thing because the definitions of all of those words contain the word luck.

 
Even in dynasty, I don't know that luck really lessens all that much. The 2009 NFL first round WR's were DHB, M.Crabtree, J.Maclin, P.Harvin, H.Nicks and K.Britt. That's six NFL first rounders and every one of them should have been on dynasty rosters that fall. So that means we all should have had a ranking for them. So here we are finishing up the 5th season for these guys and is anyone really wanting to crow about how their skill allowed them to ferret out lasting and reliable value over the past 4 years from that list? I was high on Nicks, but it was more about acquisition costs because I knew that Crabtree would cost more than Nicks. I would have jumped on Crabtree at the Nicks price given the opportunity. But I sure thought I was a genius early on for getting Nicks cheaper. Now, not so much. Because over the last 5 years, Nicks hasn't consistently paid dividends. In fact, I think you could argue that his holding costs have actually been a net negative because at some point you probably relied on him at season's start to be a starter for you and got burned.
In dynasty:

2011 - Consensus top 2 picks were Julio and Green

2012 - Consensus top 3 picks were a combination of TRich, Blackmon and Martin

 
Fantasy football, imo, is a game of skill (at least for some). Luck can be a significant factor in winning or losing any one specific game or league, especially in redraft. However, given a larger sample size of leagues and seasons, skill becomes more apparent. Some players are just better than others. Some are MUCH much better.

There are players that are elite at the game evidenced by a high level of performance over a long period of time. They are more than skillful “managers” imo. You can manage and research all you want (and there are many that spend a ton of time doing so without elite results), but you still have to make the right picks over time.

If fantasy football were mostly luck, we wouldn’t see players like Chad Schroeder consistently dominate the high stakes redraft competitions like he does. He’s a professional fantasy football player and always at the top of the leaderboards in the high stakes competitions (and a winner of the grand prize in several of the national competitions). There are others, but he’s the one that most readily comes to mind. There are players out there (as few as they may be) that are in control of their overall success to a large extent. There are those (like me) that may never understand how it is these elite redrafters get it done year after year, league after league. While I don’t have that level of skill and don’t know necessarily what it takes, it is evident to me that there are those that do.

As for dynasty, I have always maintained that luck plays an even more diminished role in dynasty over time (relative to redraft). Guys like Wayne Ellis consistently win (and win big) in the high stakes dynasty arena. There are a few others that I see that are also consistently in the winner’s circle. I will include myself as the prime example of this.

Out of my 7 FFPC high stakes dynasty leagues (ranging from $750 to $2500 in entry fees, all non-startups), I made it to the final 4 this year in all but one (with the one team not making it going through a rebuild). Now, whether any one of those teams wins the league championship will come down to luck to a much greater extent, since its now just a 2-week competition and anything can happen down the stretch (like Julio Jones, whom I own in all of the leagues but 1, being out/injured at the worst possible time!). I could win all of them, I could win none. Admitttedly, I am relying on luck from here on out despite how good or not good any particular team may be. However, getting my teams into the playoffs in the first place was not luck. I can always rely on having a high percentage of my teams in the playoffs year after year. In fact, out of my 14 non-startup dynasty teams (spread across various competitions) this year, I missed the playoffs in only the one rebuild mentioned above (next year for those leagues could very well be 14 out of 14).

I also play in a 24-league, 288-team dynasty competition in the DFWC ($300 per team). I have multiple teams in the competition (3 future-centric startups and 3 2nd year teams). Of those 3 second year dynasty teams, all 3 finished in the top 15 overall this year in total points during the regular season, with one finishing #1 overall, another at #7 and the third at #15. I expected/predicted this kind of success before I entered the competition last year, and I expect to do the same again next year. That can’t be mostly luck. Whether any of my 3 teams wins the grand prize in a 3-week playoff against 96 teams will come down to luck to a much greater extent. The odds are against any one of the teams winning. I will be truly lucky to win the overall $7,500 grand prize this year. But I am fairly confident that one of my teams will take down the 3-year rolling “Dynasty King” prize ($2,000 annually) starting in 2016 (and again in 2017, 2018, etc.) as a 3-year competition is far less prone to luck swings, especially in dynasty, even against a field of 288 teams.

It is easy to discount success in fantasy football to luck, and perhaps in many cases that may be appropriate. However, as winning track records get longer, particularly in dynasty, it becomes more apparent that luck is not necessarily the predominant factor.

 
Ernol said:
Fantasy football, imo, is a game of skill (at least for some). Luck can be a significant factor in winning or losing any one specific game or league, especially in redraft. However, given a larger sample size of leagues and seasons, skill becomes more apparent. Some players are just better than others. Some are MUCH much better.

There are players that are elite at the game evidenced by a high level of performance over a long period of time. They are more than skillful managers imo. You can manage and research all you want (and there are many that spend a ton of time doing so without elite results), but you still have to make the right picks over time.

If fantasy football were mostly luck, we wouldnt see players like Chad Schroeder consistently dominate the high stakes redraft competitions like he does. Hes a professional fantasy football player and always at the top of the leaderboards in the high stakes competitions (and a winner of the grand prize in several of the national competitions). There are others, but hes the one that most readily comes to mind. There are players out there (as few as they may be) that are in control of their overall success to a large extent. There are those (like me) that may never understand how it is these elite redrafters get it done year after year, league after league. While I dont have that level of skill and dont know necessarily what it takes, it is evident to me that there are those that do.

As for dynasty, I have always maintained that luck plays an even more diminished role in dynasty over time (relative to redraft). Guys like Wayne Ellis consistently win (and win big) in the high stakes dynasty arena. There are a few others that I see that are also consistently in the winners circle. I will include myself as the prime example of this.

Out of my 7 FFPC high stakes dynasty leagues (ranging from $750 to $2500 in entry fees, all non-startups), I made it to the final 4 this year in all but one (with the one team not making it going through a rebuild). Now, whether any one of those teams wins the league championship will come down to luck to a much greater extent, since its now just a 2-week competition and anything can happen down the stretch (like Julio Jones, whom I own in all of the leagues but 1, being out/injured at the worst possible time!). I could win all of them, I could win none. Admitttedly, I am relying on luck from here on out despite how good or not good any particular team may be. However, getting my teams into the playoffs in the first place was not luck. I can always rely on having a high percentage of my teams in the playoffs year after year. In fact, out of my 14 non-startup dynasty teams (spread across various competitions) this year, I missed the playoffs in only the one rebuild mentioned above (next year for those leagues could very well be 14 out of 14).

I also play in a 24-league, 288-team dynasty competition in the DFWC ($300 per team). I have multiple teams in the competition (3 future-centric startups and 3 2nd year teams). Of those 3 second year dynasty teams, all 3 finished in the top 15 overall this year in total points during the regular season, with one finishing #1 overall, another at #7 and the third at #15. I expected/predicted this kind of success before I entered the competition last year, and I expect to do the same again next year. That cant be mostly luck. Whether any of my 3 teams wins the grand prize in a 3-week playoff against 96 teams will come down to luck to a much greater extent. The odds are against any one of the teams winning. I will be truly lucky to win the overall $7,500 grand prize this year. But I am fairly confident that one of my teams will take down the 3-year rolling Dynasty King prize ($2,000 annually) starting in 2016 (and again in 2017, 2018, etc.) as a 3-year competition is far less prone to luck swings, especially in dynasty, even against a field of 288 teams.

It is easy to discount success in fantasy football to luck, and perhaps in many cases that may be appropriate. However, as winning track records get longer, particularly in dynasty, it becomes more apparent that luck is not necessarily the predominant factor.
Good points, but the amount of money it costs to play in league does not mean it is a "stronger" league. It just means some people have more money and are willing to risk more of it is all.

 
Ernol said:
Fantasy football, imo, is a game of skill (at least for some). Luck can be a significant factor in winning or losing any one specific game or league, especially in redraft. However, given a larger sample size of leagues and seasons, skill becomes more apparent. Some players are just better than others. Some are MUCH much better.

There are players that are elite at the game evidenced by a high level of performance over a long period of time. They are more than skillful managers imo. You can manage and research all you want (and there are many that spend a ton of time doing so without elite results), but you still have to make the right picks over time.

If fantasy football were mostly luck, we wouldnt see players like Chad Schroeder consistently dominate the high stakes redraft competitions like he does. Hes a professional fantasy football player and always at the top of the leaderboards in the high stakes competitions (and a winner of the grand prize in several of the national competitions). There are others, but hes the one that most readily comes to mind. There are players out there (as few as they may be) that are in control of their overall success to a large extent. There are those (like me) that may never understand how it is these elite redrafters get it done year after year, league after league. While I dont have that level of skill and dont know necessarily what it takes, it is evident to me that there are those that do.

As for dynasty, I have always maintained that luck plays an even more diminished role in dynasty over time (relative to redraft). Guys like Wayne Ellis consistently win (and win big) in the high stakes dynasty arena. There are a few others that I see that are also consistently in the winners circle. I will include myself as the prime example of this.

Out of my 7 FFPC high stakes dynasty leagues (ranging from $750 to $2500 in entry fees, all non-startups), I made it to the final 4 this year in all but one (with the one team not making it going through a rebuild). Now, whether any one of those teams wins the league championship will come down to luck to a much greater extent, since its now just a 2-week competition and anything can happen down the stretch (like Julio Jones, whom I own in all of the leagues but 1, being out/injured at the worst possible time!). I could win all of them, I could win none. Admitttedly, I am relying on luck from here on out despite how good or not good any particular team may be. However, getting my teams into the playoffs in the first place was not luck. I can always rely on having a high percentage of my teams in the playoffs year after year. In fact, out of my 14 non-startup dynasty teams (spread across various competitions) this year, I missed the playoffs in only the one rebuild mentioned above (next year for those leagues could very well be 14 out of 14).

I also play in a 24-league, 288-team dynasty competition in the DFWC ($300 per team). I have multiple teams in the competition (3 future-centric startups and 3 2nd year teams). Of those 3 second year dynasty teams, all 3 finished in the top 15 overall this year in total points during the regular season, with one finishing #1 overall, another at #7 and the third at #15. I expected/predicted this kind of success before I entered the competition last year, and I expect to do the same again next year. That cant be mostly luck. Whether any of my 3 teams wins the grand prize in a 3-week playoff against 96 teams will come down to luck to a much greater extent. The odds are against any one of the teams winning. I will be truly lucky to win the overall $7,500 grand prize this year. But I am fairly confident that one of my teams will take down the 3-year rolling Dynasty King prize ($2,000 annually) starting in 2016 (and again in 2017, 2018, etc.) as a 3-year competition is far less prone to luck swings, especially in dynasty, even against a field of 288 teams.

It is easy to discount success in fantasy football to luck, and perhaps in many cases that may be appropriate. However, as winning track records get longer, particularly in dynasty, it becomes more apparent that luck is not necessarily the predominant factor.
Good points, but the amount of money it costs to play in league does not mean it is a "stronger" league. It just means some people have more money and are willing to risk more of it is all.

 
TDorBust said:
JamesTheScot said:
Even the great Peyton Manning will have a dud game. This doesn't make a person unlucky to have started them again this just means stasticially things are even out towards the average. It just happens Peyton's average is a heck of a lot higher than Gino Smith.

If you ask Peyton do you think he would respond yup it's all luck out there today?

Do you think the Owner of the Broncos had control on what happened? Is it luck for him? He actually did less about Peyton starting for his team than anyone. He only potentially said yes we can pay Peyton X amount. He also likely only had control over hiring Elway who then hired those putting any gameplan in place.

PS- Luck would not have an explanation like Justin made. While its out of the norm by far I attach luck to things with no explanation why things fall your way.
If you ask him if completing that pass is more luck or skill, he would probably say skill (and preparation).

If you ask him if it was luck or skill to be born with the physical talent to even be in that position to attempt the throw, he would say luck.

So then, is completing that pass more luck or skill?

Most players will talk about how fortunate they were to get to play the game at that level.

It all depends on how broad or narrow you frame the question.
Except a wide majority of NFL Players would point back to GOD as the reason they have the ability and fortune to play in the NFL? So is it really luck or are they grateful to GOD for giving them the ability and life to do so?

Also if you don't believe in GOD and want to go scientific it again is not luck. Is it luck to have brown hair? Is it luck to be 6'4 tall? Nope its called genetics... Also is it luck that Manning is born to Archie Manning (another NFL QB) to help develop him and strive for greatness? Nope again Peyton wouldn't exist without him...

JamesTheScot said:
I'm making a playoff run in large part due to odell Beckham who I only have because cooks was gone and a team before me took Hyde, and Andre Williams who was included by the other team in an unsolicited offer.

This happens more than some would want to believe.
This is a great point.

Any format that allows one owner to exclusively own a player injects more luck into the equation. And making the selection process a draft (further eliminating owners from having the opportunity to acquire certain players) just increases the luck involved.

LeSean McCoy is the 9th ranked RB in total points and the 14th ranked RB in per game points.

Chances are that EVERYONE in your league had him in the top 3 at RB. Meaning that literally every owner in the league would take him if they had, say, the 1.7 pick and he slipped that far.

But if he was already gone, they might take D.Murray, Calvin, J.Graham, Lacy, etc.

So 12 guys agree that he would be the pick at 1.7 if he lasted that long. But every one of those guys would be wrong in terms of the expectation versus realization, correct? Yet only one owner, the guy who actually picked McCoy, suffers the let down of that miss on McCoy. The owner picking at 1.7 actually benefits from the 1.3 owner taking McCoy because he gets D.Murray instead, even though he, just like the 1.3 owner had McCoy over Murray in his rankings.

So, in a system where the skill of the players is largely equal, luck is playing a huge role in the outcomes.
I wont even try to get deep into this one but if we attribute everything in life to luck based on having our primary choice not an option everything is luck.

<example>

I couldn't get into medical school so I opened my own business and now I am a successful businessman so that means my success as a businessman is all luck

Is equivalent to

I couldn't get Cooks in the draft so I drafted Beckham and has lead me to the play-offs so that means my success as a FF owner is all luck

I don't get the thought process of "Everything didnt go exactly like expected so its luck". Think we are spinning the wheels though so checking out of this thread.

PS - FF is so not luck hahaha
Your med school / business analogy is flawed because you would make your business successful. We have zero impact on the players we draft.

I'm not calling all of my success luck, but that one event (the other guy picking cooks) is the only reason I won two weeks ago. Doesn't make me a better ff player or worse if I had gotten the player I wanted.

 

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