Read this yesterday and thought it was interesting. Wondering what you thought about it.
How to know if you are the problem in America:
How to know if you are the problem in America:
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How To Know If You're The Problem With America... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I mostly agree.
I am sure the people who do not will be oblivious to the fact that they match some or all of the thing mentioned in that article, and are the ones most likely to push back on the sentiment expressed there, but the sad thing nowadays is that too many are more concerned with being right and winning than getting along with their fellow citizens.
I am sure the people who do not will be oblivious to the fact that they match some or all of the thing mentioned in that article, and are the ones most likely to push back on the sentiment expressed there, but the sad thing nowadays is that too many are more concerned with being right and winning than getting along with their fellow citizens.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I agree with a lot but disagree with the part where he said “the other side isn’t going away.” At one time half the country supported slavery. That side has gone away. There are lots of examples in history where there is a public policy debate and after a period of time one side clearly emerges as the winner and the opponents basically disappear.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I agree in spirit.
Max Power
Footballguy
I slightly agree. I don't think one side is trying to destroy the other. I tend to think the extreme 5% on both ends of the spectrum are the loudest voices in the room and the Media amplifies those voices. I think 80-90% of America is pretty rational and could come together, but that isn't in the best interests of the people running everything.
FairWarning
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Exactly what I was going to post.
Also, I think the description in the OP describes more than a few people around here.
moleculo
Footballguy
The argument went away but the people were still there.
Also, the anti-slavery argument didn't go away over night. It took maybe a hundred years. From the perspective of people living in 1864, the "pro-slavery" side didn't really go away.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I believe social media and for-profit news are the main driver for just about most of that list.
I don't disagree.
I think what he means there is the people on the other side aren't going away.
The issue may change and the people may or may not change their opinion, but they're still here.
For Roe v Wade for instance, Conservative may have received the change they were looking for. But the people on the other side aren't going away. That's how I read it.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Also, it took a literal civil war -- with people shooting cannons at each other and burning down cities -- to end slavery. Then a bunch of constitutional amendments that were enforced by a military occupation of the former confederacy. When that military occupation went away, the pro-slavery confederates transitioned directly into a system of racial terrorism and segregation that lasted until the 1960s. So basically the people who were in favor of racial apartheid in the US controlled significant chunks of the country from the 1600s until approximately the Johnson administration. Not sure I would have nominated "slavery" as an example of a transitory issue that vanished into the ether as a result of people realizing the error of their ways.
timschochet
Footballguy
I mostly agree.
The part about only watching or reading media that agrees with you- IMO that’s not a both sides thing. That’s currently only true of conservatives.
The part about only watching or reading media that agrees with you- IMO that’s not a both sides thing. That’s currently only true of conservatives.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I have said this a number of times.
In my day to day life at home, at play, at work, with friends or family. I never or very, very rarely see what is fed to us by the media every night.
This includes people from all walks of life, races and religions. There are 350 million people in this country so of course there will be outliers as there are everywhere.
Now pretty sure the PSF brings out the worst in some. I highly doubt most here would talk the same way face to face to people.
In my day to day life at home, at play, at work, with friends or family. I never or very, very rarely see what is fed to us by the media every night.
This includes people from all walks of life, races and religions. There are 350 million people in this country so of course there will be outliers as there are everywhere.
Now pretty sure the PSF brings out the worst in some. I highly doubt most here would talk the same way face to face to people.
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timschochet
Footballguy
As a general rule most political positions that, at the time they’re popular, are described as “conservative”, gradually fade away over time. Almost any modern day conservative these days would have been a liberal 50 years ago. Almost any conservative 50 years from now would be a liberal right now.
That’s the main reason so many of the debates these days, particularly those surrounding woke issues, seem so silly and irrelevant to me. Because I already know that the liberal side is going to win, and years from now most conservatives will accept all the stuff we’re currently arguing about as a given (even as they argue about new stuff that they object to.)
timschochet
Footballguy
(HULK)
(Smash)
There are plenty of liberals that only watch MSNBC or CNN and would never turn on Fox News.
You said that is a conservative only problem, proving the point of the author.
timschochet
Footballguy
It is only a conservative problem. MSNBC and CNN are neutral sources- they report things I don’t want to hear all the time. (I’m referring to news reporting, not opinion shows.) Whoever watches CNN news can generally be regarded as a well informed person IMO. I believe this is true of Fox News as well. It is NOT true of other conservative news sources however.
squistion
Footballguy
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The Commish
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
You need to get out of your little bubble...there are PLENTY who watch ONLY MSNBC, refuse to watch FOX etc etc etc. That's the other side of the coin from those who ONLY watch FOX and refuse to watch MSNBC. Two peas, one pod and no amount of mental gymnastics are going to get you out of that reality.
The Commish
Footballguy
This happens in EVERY SINGLE thread this comes up. Tim's narrowly crafted argument addresses approx 0.000000001% of the "media" and "sources". His definitions are unique to him and necessarily so to fit his arugment.
crackattack
Footballguy
He is the perfect mold of the case in point. But he'll never see it because he believes the MSM like cnn and msnbc are moderate. They're not and almost everyone but Tim knows it. It's outstanding his bootlicking for the MSM.
timschochet
Footballguy
So rather than explain your disagreement with me and show where I am wrong, you simply accept “both sides do it” as an obvious truth and condemn anyone who points only at one side as part of the problem hurting America. It’s lazy and wrong.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Yep. He’ll bust out some long-winded posts about what “he believes,” and then make it to where the thread is all about him and his denial of the obvious. You can set your watch to it.
Manster
Footballguy
This is untrue. Both sides digest media that tends to reinforce their POV.....maybe different formats.
timschochet
Footballguy
I certainly don’t mind being an outlier (I often am) but in this case I hardly think I’m the only one who believes that conservative news sources are biased and the MSM is fair. That’s not exactly an unpopular POV.
Manster
Footballguy
The ultimate goal.....non-binary, asexual beings who have achieved nirvana, and zero carbon footprint.
supermike80
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Not my intent. Obviously I do think this is an issue worthy of discussion (sometimes I think it’s the most important issue worthy of discussion) but I don’t want to turn this thread into a discussion about me. So I’ll bow out.
supermike80
Footballguy
Hes nuts...The bias in that guy is palpable and it's a shame. Conservatives and republicans are bad. All of them--always and forever. Just know that's what you will always get from this guy. It's a darn shame. These are exactly the people that post references. Wow
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
These two people will be misinformed in different ways, but I would not value either of their opinions on anything of substance. Both are the intellectual equivalent of consuming nothing but Skittles and beer and imagining yourself to be well-nourished because you've grown fat.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
And it still fascinates me how he is able to take over threads and monopolize a good portion of the conversation. People you don't normally see in threads coming in to argue with him. Impressive, really.
supermike80
Footballguy
I've said this before. Anyone that legitimately believes CNN and MSNBC are neutral sources CANNOT in anyway be taken seriously when it comes to understanding of the media. Just can't.
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unckeyherb
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I don't see how these could describe anyone around here:
- You are surrounded by people who agree with you.
- You mostly read or watch media that supports your beliefs.
People like to complain a lot about the PSF but I think just about anybody has to acknowledge that there's a pretty decent mixture of folks across the left/right spectrum. Makes this place much more interesting than somewhere where we all agreed with each other and we never heard different POVs
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
Thank you GB. In my life I've overheard drunkards at a tavern speaking louder than they realize how "blacks" aren't fully human, lazy, stupid and should still be slaves. Every time I see a Confederate flag it's a reminder too. I don't want any laws forbidding either but society should view them as if they were flying a flag from any other terrorist group.
Max Power
Footballguy
This is a good time to promote podcasts as an alternative POV to the MSM. I get my MSM at work and have half a dozen podcasts I'll listen to on my drive home. Most of them do a much better job at discussing both sides of the issue. The ones who can do it respectfully tend to resonate with people more.
supermike80
Footballguy
I agree. Most of my family on my wife's side is liberal. Some very far liberal. And I'm good with that. (They on the other hand are not good with my or my wife's conservatism) but I have zero issue with their political beliefs and I flat out refuse to judge people or base my relationship status with people based on their politics. I guess to me it isn't that important.
And I don't mean to single out Tim. I think a lot of us, me included, have the problem. At the very least, I think it's helpful to recognize it's out there.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
I disagree. But what I appreciate is you always make an attempt to pull the discussion here towards the center. If you have a political bias, I don't personally see it. I've seen others accuse you of it but they are just sealioning/gaslighting you, which is completely bizarre to me since you have the power to delete the entire PSF. Which, to be honest, and looking those two pinned threads, might not actually be a bad idea at all. There is clearly a level of gross entitlement that many Americans have, that "abundance" is a birthright. No one is entitled to waking up tomorrow and having any of these forums be here. No one is entitled to anything to be completely honest.
The real core problem in America, if we are talking about political divide, rests in three specific areas.
1) The most important, the entire country is divided in part because there has been sustained aggressive campaign against federalism by many of the powerful big money corporate fat cat donor overlords. The Democratic Party, the elected officials there, all the way across the board, want to centralize all authority in the federal government. The operational arm of this egregious assault is the radical left which has made absolutely everything in our society into a political purity test.
Practical "federalism", which is a Conservative benchmark and more aligned to our Founder's vision of our country and it's future, ensures the role of the respective states to be the near complete center of gravity regarding functional governance and ground level public policy. The overturning of Roe v. Wade is very much in line with this. Trump didn't just put FedSoc Conservative Catholics onto SCOTUS, he put "originalists" in place. Hence what our Founders would have wanted to happen, flaws and all, because a federal ban on abortion restrictions would have actually silenced the views and will of many people in those states. A good immediately example is the 15-20 million Pro Life Democrats that exist in this country, spread out everywhere. The original Roe decision essentially made them politically homeless as their own Party apparatus pretends they don't exist at all.
The end result is traditional liberals in this country are effectively held hostage and the notion of "classic liberalism" is being effectively destroyed.
2) Most of us here are parents. And I've used this example before, if two kids are always fighting, what do parents do? Tell them to go play with other kids instead. We tell them sometimes you can't get along with other kids, you've tried, we've tried, the teachers and principal have intervened. Sometimes two kids need to stop talking to each other, stay away from each other and move on towards different lives and paths. There are 340-350 million people in this country. If you account for all the illegal immigrants flooding in plus the failures/struggles of the census. That's too many people to hold under one Big Government vision and find any kind of consensus. Well you can, in theory, but that requires a full authoritarian regime, which is what we are seeing now from the establishment Democrats, a push for chipping away at open dissent on all levels.
I said this pretty much in my first post in the PSF over a year and a half ago - Conservatives and Republicans should live in states and cities and towns and geographic regions with like minded people. So should traditional liberals, Progressives and radical leftists. Once you are in a place where values are aligned, mostly, then you can work the problems of functional governance. There is where smaller government is better, you can be more reactive and responsive to the needs of everyday working class people, because you are closer to them. Because let's face it, working class people in America today are getting the shaft by political overlords that have no concept of what it means to be working class at all.
3) Something Clemenza, Don Vito's enforcer caporegime, said in Mario Puzo's The Godfather was that war needed to happen between the Five Families every ten years or so, it was a necessity because you needed to wash away all the old bad blood. America needs to go to war with China or have an all out internal civil war. While that might be abhorrent to you, there is too much bad blood out there. There can be a hyperfocus on putting that rage towards a common external threat, or people can just start picking each other off here domestically. But it's going to happen. One or the other. Personally I find going to war with China more practical and palatable. What Clemenza was talking about was the reality of the human condition and human nature at work.
The fight is inevitable. Lots of people are going to die.
To alleviate that somewhat, we will need many states to secede and we will need economic "bifurcation" But I've always advocated for this, and Ben Shapiro of The Daily Wire has pushed for this too - Conservatives and Republicans should focus their dollars and spending on other Conservatives and Republicans and to those who remain politically neutral. You can still be a part of America, just a separated segment of it. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I do understand your sentiment. I don't think it's a bad sentiment. I think it's a very humanistic sentiment. But I don't see a pathway where what you want can happen. There has to be a functional pathway for hope to turn to reality.
I don't believe compromise is a dirty word. But surrender is a dirty word. What's being asked of myself and my godson and my employees and their children is just outright surrender. My answer is No. I love America but I reserve the right to not love all Americans. I reserve the right not to agree with all Americans. I don't think half of America's rank and file citizens are trying to destroy me and mine, I do believe we all exist on a playground where they should go play by the swings with their like minded group and I should hang out at the jungle gym with my cohort of allies.
There's a difference between accountability and blame. Sometimes, in your attempts to be centrist, which I actually do value and appreciate on a community level, I find you actually end up with more blame than you originally intended. You might even be unaware that it's going on. Saying everyone needs to be better has a place, but it also creates an escape hatch ( it's watering down blame onto everyone) for bad faith actors in our society who want to skirt past actual accountability. If that happens, it's just as dangerous as how you see open tribalism. People need to pay for their choices. They need to own their lives and answer for what they have done. This is something else we all teach our children.
Mercy has no value without discipline.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
No, you're an outlier here because when everyone else is talking about this topic they have an agreed upon set of standards and frame of focus. You use the same terms the rest of us do only have a SIGNIFICANTLY different framing of terms. THAT is what makes you an outlier. The "MSM" is SIGNIFICANTLY more than what you want it to be. Nobody here makes the distinctions you do.
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