What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

I Bought a Handgun in California Today(gun control opinions, please) (1 Viewer)

Chadstroma said:
FreeBaGeL said:
Chadstroma said:
joffer said:
Chadstroma said:
Here is my biggest problem with "Gun control" beyond the whole Constitution thingee. I have yet to hear anything that would really make a difference. I am not really opposed to many things that are typically brought up personally but the problem is this: Let's say we went ahead and did a wishlist of most non-insane liberals on gun control. It does nothing to stop gun violence. Then what? Do you think they will say "Well, shoot, that did not work. Let's try something that might actually work." or do you think they will say something along the lines of "OMG, think of the kids! We must have more gun control!!!" right up to the point where there is no longer a right to bear arms in this country. And guess what? It STILL would not do anything to stop the violence.
"What will we do if we try this and it doesn't work?" is not a good argument for not trying it. Especially if there are legit arguments that it may work.
If the argument is "we have to do something because of the violence" and that something does not do anything to stop the violence than eventually there is a point where 'gun control' means 'gun ban'. That is a very dark place to go in the US.
So elementary school kids getting violently shot to death and watching the kid next to them bleed out is not a dark place, but not being able to own a gun is. Got it. Just want to make sure I had your priorities straight.
A US that attempts to enact a gun ban will be a US that quickly devolves into revolt/civil war. That is a very dark place. I think there was a thread not too long ago asking if the US would be in another civil war. I don't see that happening at all short of an attempt by the Federal government to enact a gun ban and then, yes, absolutely- there would be some form of war. So, yes, you got that straight.
:lmao:
[SIZE=14pt]“ I Do Solemnly Swear (Or Affirm) That I Will Uphold the Constitution of the United States of America, Against All Enemies, Foreign and Domestic…Pledging My Life , My Fortune, and My Sacred Honor. So Help Me God.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Good. Everyone who swears this oath, on the Constitution of the United States, warrants that this oath will never be violated. Their motto is, ““Not on our watch!” This pro-American oath has been sworn by hundreds of thousands of active military and veterans, police officers, national guardsmen, TSA officials, firemen, and peace officers across America. The Oath is further defined in ten separate parts:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.[/SIZE]

2. [SIZE=14pt]We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects – such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.[/SIZE]

3. [SIZE=14pt]We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.[/SIZE]

4. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.[/SIZE]

5. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty and declares the national government to be in violation of the compact by which that state entered the Union.[/SIZE]

6. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.[/SIZE]

7. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.[/SIZE]

8. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control” during any emergency, or under any other pretext. We will consider such use of foreign troops against our people to be an invasion and an act of war.[/SIZE]

9. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies, under any emergency pretext whatsoever.[/SIZE]

10. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Estimates put Oath Keepers membership in excess of 200,000.Within these ranks are every military rank from all three branches of the military, and the intelligence service. From Gunny Sargent to Admiral, from Army Chaplain to Naval Captain, Marine Corp. General to enlisted man, America’s veteran corp. remains full of a vast wealth of very expensive and thorough military training. All these men and women were trained to fight. They remember their training. They remember that they are, first and foremost, American’s sworn to protect the constitution and the American people. That never changed.[/SIZE]

 
Chadstroma said:
FreeBaGeL said:
Chadstroma said:
joffer said:
Chadstroma said:
Here is my biggest problem with "Gun control" beyond the whole Constitution thingee. I have yet to hear anything that would really make a difference. I am not really opposed to many things that are typically brought up personally but the problem is this: Let's say we went ahead and did a wishlist of most non-insane liberals on gun control. It does nothing to stop gun violence. Then what? Do you think they will say "Well, shoot, that did not work. Let's try something that might actually work." or do you think they will say something along the lines of "OMG, think of the kids! We must have more gun control!!!" right up to the point where there is no longer a right to bear arms in this country. And guess what? It STILL would not do anything to stop the violence.
"What will we do if we try this and it doesn't work?" is not a good argument for not trying it. Especially if there are legit arguments that it may work.
If the argument is "we have to do something because of the violence" and that something does not do anything to stop the violence than eventually there is a point where 'gun control' means 'gun ban'. That is a very dark place to go in the US.
So elementary school kids getting violently shot to death and watching the kid next to them bleed out is not a dark place, but not being able to own a gun is. Got it. Just want to make sure I had your priorities straight.
A US that attempts to enact a gun ban will be a US that quickly devolves into revolt/civil war. That is a very dark place. I think there was a thread not too long ago asking if the US would be in another civil war. I don't see that happening at all short of an attempt by the Federal government to enact a gun ban and then, yes, absolutely- there would be some form of war. So, yes, you got that straight.
:lmao:
[SIZE=14pt]“ I Do Solemnly Swear (Or Affirm) That I Will Uphold the Constitution of the United States of America, Against All Enemies, Foreign and Domestic…Pledging My Life , My Fortune, and My Sacred Honor. So Help Me God.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Good. Everyone who swears this oath, on the Constitution of the United States, warrants that this oath will never be violated. Their motto is, ““Not on our watch!” This pro-American oath has been sworn by hundreds of thousands of active military and veterans, police officers, national guardsmen, TSA officials, firemen, and peace officers across America. The Oath is further defined in ten separate parts:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.[/SIZE]

2. [SIZE=14pt]We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects – such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.[/SIZE]

3. [SIZE=14pt]We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.[/SIZE]

4. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.[/SIZE]

5. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty and declares the national government to be in violation of the compact by which that state entered the Union.[/SIZE]

6. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.[/SIZE]

7. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.[/SIZE]

8. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control” during any emergency, or under any other pretext. We will consider such use of foreign troops against our people to be an invasion and an act of war.[/SIZE]

9. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies, under any emergency pretext whatsoever.[/SIZE]

10. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Estimates put Oath Keepers membership in excess of 200,000.Within these ranks are every military rank from all three branches of the military, and the intelligence service. From Gunny Sargent to Admiral, from Army Chaplain to Naval Captain, Marine Corp. General to enlisted man, America’s veteran corp. remains full of a vast wealth of very expensive and thorough military training. All these men and women were trained to fight. They remember their training. They remember that they are, first and foremost, American’s sworn to protect the constitution and the American people. That never changed.[/SIZE]
Which is why we'll always remember the great American Civil War of 2001 after the 4th amendment was spit all over.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
If a person with a CCW causes injury to a bystander, are they given any latitude in being prosecuted? In other words, if they accidentally shoot someone while trying to stop a crime, is there prosecutorial discretion allowed? Could someone claim good intentions and avoid prosecution?

I certainly hope there's very little.

 
If a person with a CCW causes injury to a bystander, are they given any latitude in being prosecuted? In other words, if they accidentally shoot someone while trying to stop a crime, is there prosecutorial discretion allowed? Could someone claim good intentions and avoid prosecution?

I certainly hope there's very little.
There is very little.

And even if you are found innocent in criminal proceedings, you are still potentially a target for civil litigation. It's a massive risk and responsibility... Which is why most intelligent carriers really really hope they never have to use their gun.

 
If a person with a CCW causes injury to a bystander, are they given any latitude in being prosecuted? In other words, if they accidentally shoot someone while trying to stop a crime, is there prosecutorial discretion allowed? Could someone claim good intentions and avoid prosecution?

I certainly hope there's very little.
There is very little.

And even if you are found innocent in criminal proceedings, you are still potentially a target for civil litigation. It's a massive risk and responsibility... Which is why most intelligent carriers really really hope they never have to use their gun.
Yeah, I remember my instructor drilling it into us that we were responsible for every round that left the barrel.... whatever the consequences, it was our responsibility.

 
Have you ever been trained under live fire? Have you ever been in a hostile environment under fire? If so how did you respond? I have seen highly trained guys, special ops types, freeze up or worse get trigger happy especially the first time. I don't think there is any way to really simulate that. That's what worries me about Joe Q Public going Wyatt Earp. You may have had great training, you think you are ready. You won't know until it happens and I hate to think of that being in a crowded mall or restaurant. Especially if I am there. You don't make me feel one bit safer in fact I feel more endangered. Sorry that's what my life experience leads me to.
I hear ya... but the reality is that if you refuse to live anywhere but a place where live under fire training is the standard of being able to defend yourself a pistol, maybe moving is the right play? Don't know what to tell ya... but that's not a realistic standard.

I can tell you that I am far from a trigger happy individual who is looking for an excuse to pull out my pistol. If it comes out, it's a life or death situation.... and of course considering line of fire is something I'd keep in mind in that scenario.

EDIT: Regardless... I will add that I think the current testing for CCW is pretty insufficient in TN. The standards for the written and range tests are woefully inadequate. There is definitely room for improvement. I just am not willing to go as far as NCC in limiting what citizens are qualified to be able to protect themselves.
Combat Vets Destroy the NRA’s Heroic Gunslinger Fantasy The last thing a chaotic crime scene needs is more untrained civilians carrying guns.

Wayne LaPierre, the head of the National Rifle Association (NRA), has famously claimed that “the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.”

Much of today’s opposition to stronger gun safety regulations rests on the gun lobby’s Hobbesian vision of self-sufficient, heavily-armed citizens standing up to vicious thugs. This Die Hard argument is constantly parroted by politicians and conservatives pundits. But the statistical reality is that for every justifiable homicide in the United States—for every lethal shooting in defense of life or property—guns are used to commit 34 murders and 78 suicides, and are the cause of two accidental deaths, according to an analysis of FBI data by The Washington Post.

LaPierre, a career lobbyist, has no clue what it’s like to use a firearm in anger. But The Nation spoke to several people who do—combat veterans and former law enforcement officers—and who believe that the NRA’s heroic gunslinger mythology is a dangerous fantasy that bears little resemblance to reality. Stephen Benson knows what it’s like when bullets start flying. The former Navy SEAL saw extensive combat during his three tours in Vietnam. Later, while recovering from the wounds that earned him his third Purple Heart, he also trained elite troops at the Naval Special Warfare Center in Coronado, California. “In chaotic situations, the first thing you know is that the #### has hit the fan and you don’t know where the fan is,” says Benson. “And unless it’s constantly drilled into you, it’s very hard to maintain discipline in those situations. You’re immediately hit with a massive thump of adrenaline. Your mouth begins to taste like copper. You can hear the blood moving in your system. You can even experience a kind of time-warp. And the problem with that kind of state is that conscious thought shuts down because you’ve been taken over by your nervous system, and your nervous system is saying, ‘holy ####, things just got really bad.’”

Retired Army Sergeant Rafael Noboa y Rivera, who led a combat team in Iraq, says that most soldiers only function effectively after they’ve been exposed to fire a number a times. “I think there’s this fantasy world of gunplay in the movies, but it doesn’t really happen that way,” he says. “When I heard gunfire [in Iraq], I didn’t immediately pick up my rifle and react. I first tried to ascertain where the shooting was coming from, where I was in relation to the gunfire and how far away it was. I think most untrained people are either going to freeze up, or just whip out their gun and start firing in that circumstance,” Noboa said. “I think they would absolutely panic.”

Everyone interviewed for this article agreed that the key distinction isn’t between “good guys” and “bad guys,” because intentions are less important than the rigorous—and continuous—training that it takes to effectively handle firearms in high-stress situations.

Dr. Pete Blair, an associate professor of criminal justice at Texas State University and director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center (ALERRT), has studied mass shooting incidents and trains law enforcement personnel to respond to active-shooter situations. The cops who go through his course conduct live-fire exercises using real firearms which are re-chambered to fire “soap rounds” that leave only welts when they hit.

Blair’s trainees run through a number of real-world scenarios—“force on force training” that’s designed to “inoculate” officers against the problems people naturally encounter in high-stress situations. That stress response, says Blair, includes “tunnel vision, audio exclusion and time dilation,” and one would expect people who weren’t trained in these situations to “freeze up or not know what to do, and to have difficulty performing actions correctly.”

Weekend-long tactical training courses for civilians are growing in popularity. But these courses offer only a shadow of what’s required, says David Chipman, a former agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Chipman, who spent several years on the agency’s SWAT team, says, “Training for a potentially deadly encounter meant, at a minimum, qualifying four times a year throughout my 25-year career. And this wasn’t just shooting paper—it meant doing extensive tactical exercises. And when I was on the SWAT team we had to undergo monthly tactical training.”

Tactical officers typically receive training in “judgmental shooting,” which includes knowing when it’s prudent to hold their fire, and “blue-on-blue awareness,” which drills into them the importance of considering whether other cops are present, including officers who aren’t in uniform. They’re trained to overcome tunnel vision by looking not only at their target but also maintaining an awareness of who or what is behind it.

“The notion that you have a seal of approval just because you’re not a criminal—that you walk into a gun store and you’re ready for game-day—is ridiculous,” says Chipman.

A case in Texas two weeks ago highlights the risks of civilians intervening in chaotic situations. Police say that as two carjackers struggled with the owner of a car at a gas station in northeast Houston, a witness decided to take action into his own hands. He fired several shots, but missed the perpetrators and shot the owner of the car in the head. He then picked up his shell casings and fled the scene. Police are still looking for the shooter.

The potential for that kind of outcome is why most police agencies strongly recommend that concealed carry holders only use their weapons as an absolute last resort, and not intervene in robberies or other crimes in which they’re not directly involved. David Chipman notes that even police officers are told that if they encounter a crime in progress while off-duty, “maybe the best thing to do at that time is not to take lethal action but instead try to be the best witness you can be.”

Not pulling a weapon is often the wisest course of action in active-shooter situations. While a number of conservatives declared that Oregon’s Umpqua Community College, the scene of a mass shooting last week, was a gun-free zone, the truth is that several concealed carry holders were present, and they wisely decided to leave their guns holstered. Veteran John Parker later explained to MSNBC, “We could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was… if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys.”

Dabid Chipman says the Secret Service’s history is instructive. “Here’s an agency that has all the weaponry that they could ever need, all the training that they could ever need, and they’ve never fired a weapon in defense of a president during an assassination attempt. You’re trained to throw your body in front of the protectee, not to open fire. Just look at the picture taken immediately after Reagan was shot and count the guns in that photograph. They’re all being held by highly-trained experts and not one of them fired. They didn’t shoot [would-be assassin John] Hinckley. And that’s because you’re likely to do more harm than good in that situation.”

The gun lobby and some conservative politicians have seized on a “study” by Davi Barker, a conservative blogger, which purports to show that when a “good guy with a gun” is present during a mass shooting, an average of 2.5 people die, but in similar situations where nobody is armed, there are an average of 18 deaths.

It’s provided the basis for claims that gun-free zones are, in former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee’s words, “sitting duck zones.” But Barker later admitted that his methodology entailed analyzing “10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere.… I honestly don’t even remember where.” And Pete Blair from Texas State notes that by definition, shootings with fewer than four casualties aren’t “mass shootings,” and incidents with as many as 18 casualties are exceedingly rare. Blair acknowledges the possibility that shooters may be more likely to seek out places they see as soft targets, like gun-free zones, but adds, “Trying to prove that is difficult to do.”

Blair co-authored a study for the FBI that looked at 185 mass shooting events over a 13-year period. It found that while around one-in-five were stopped by civilians before police arrived, in only one case was it done by a typical “good guy with a gun” (professionals—an off-duty cop and an armed security guard—used their guns to stop two others). In most cases Blair and his colleague studied, civilians ended a rampage by tackling the assailant.

None of this has prevented the gun manufacturers’ lobby from insisting that more guns make a society safer. And many Americans have come to believe it. According to the Pew Research Center, the share of gun owners who cite “protection” as “the main reason they own a gun” almost doubled between 1999 and 2013, from 26 percent to 48 percent.

But a large body of empirical evidence finds the opposite to be true. Last year, epidemiologists at the University of California, San Francisco, conducted an extensive analysis of data from 16 previous peer-reviewed studies, and found that having access to a firearm makes a person almost twice as likely to become the victim of a homicide and three times more likely to commit suicide. Previous research has shown that countries with higher rates of gun ownership also have higher rates of gun deaths and states with more guns have higher homicide rates. (The gun lobby’s side of the scholarly debate rests largely on the discredited and allegedly fraudulent work of economist John Lott.)

Those who have carried weapons into combat or to make an arrest scoff at the very idea.“It’s insane,” says Stephen Benson. He recalls an anecdote from his first pistol class in basic training. “We put on our issue .45s, and our instructor said, ‘Gentlemen, the first and most important thing you’ve done by putting on that weapon is you’ve increased your chances of being in a gunfight by 100 percent.’ That’s a lesson that a lot of people don’t get. More guns means more gunfights. And the idea that in a chaotic, pressurized, terrifying situation, they’re going to do the right thing is ridiculous.” He adds: “The NRA and the gun manufacturers have been able to lie about this without being confronted.”

Rafael Noboa y Rivera agreed, adding that he’s personally wary of “untrained yahoos” who “think they’re Wyatt Earp.”

“Despite what we see on TV, the presence of a firearm is a greater risk, especially in the hands of an untrained person,” says David Chipman, the former ATF agent. “Someone can always say, ‘If your mother is being raped by 5 people, wouldn’t you want her to have a gun?’ Well, OK, if you put it that way, I’d say yes, but that’s not a likely scenario. The question is: If you see someone running out of a gas station with a gun in their hand, do you want an untrained person jumping out and opening fire. For me, the answer is clearly ‘no.’”
The Nation

Actually posted this in another thread but felt like it should go here as well.

 
TL;DR


;)

Kidding, GB. Again... I am not saying that the average citizen is on with battle hardened vets. Not really sure why you keep arguing that they're not.

That said.... forgive me if I struggle to swim through the bias from a publication that "is self-described as "the flagship of the left"" and has an entire department dedicated to "disarmament". :lol:

 
Chadstroma said:
FreeBaGeL said:
Chadstroma said:
joffer said:
Chadstroma said:
Here is my biggest problem with "Gun control" beyond the whole Constitution thingee. I have yet to hear anything that would really make a difference. I am not really opposed to many things that are typically brought up personally but the problem is this: Let's say we went ahead and did a wishlist of most non-insane liberals on gun control. It does nothing to stop gun violence. Then what? Do you think they will say "Well, shoot, that did not work. Let's try something that might actually work." or do you think they will say something along the lines of "OMG, think of the kids! We must have more gun control!!!" right up to the point where there is no longer a right to bear arms in this country. And guess what? It STILL would not do anything to stop the violence.
"What will we do if we try this and it doesn't work?" is not a good argument for not trying it. Especially if there are legit arguments that it may work.
If the argument is "we have to do something because of the violence" and that something does not do anything to stop the violence than eventually there is a point where 'gun control' means 'gun ban'. That is a very dark place to go in the US.
So elementary school kids getting violently shot to death and watching the kid next to them bleed out is not a dark place, but not being able to own a gun is. Got it. Just want to make sure I had your priorities straight.
A US that attempts to enact a gun ban will be a US that quickly devolves into revolt/civil war. That is a very dark place. I think there was a thread not too long ago asking if the US would be in another civil war. I don't see that happening at all short of an attempt by the Federal government to enact a gun ban and then, yes, absolutely- there would be some form of war. So, yes, you got that straight.
:lmao:
[SIZE=14pt]“ I Do Solemnly Swear (Or Affirm) That I Will Uphold the Constitution of the United States of America, Against All Enemies, Foreign and Domestic…Pledging My Life , My Fortune, and My Sacred Honor. So Help Me God.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Good. Everyone who swears this oath, on the Constitution of the United States, warrants that this oath will never be violated. Their motto is, ““Not on our watch!” This pro-American oath has been sworn by hundreds of thousands of active military and veterans, police officers, national guardsmen, TSA officials, firemen, and peace officers across America. The Oath is further defined in ten separate parts:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.[/SIZE]

2. [SIZE=14pt]We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects – such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.[/SIZE]

3. [SIZE=14pt]We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.[/SIZE]

4. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.[/SIZE]

5. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty and declares the national government to be in violation of the compact by which that state entered the Union.[/SIZE]

6. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.[/SIZE]

7. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.[/SIZE]

8. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control” during any emergency, or under any other pretext. We will consider such use of foreign troops against our people to be an invasion and an act of war.[/SIZE]

9. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies, under any emergency pretext whatsoever.[/SIZE]

10. [SIZE=14pt] We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Estimates put Oath Keepers membership in excess of 200,000.Within these ranks are every military rank from all three branches of the military, and the intelligence service. From Gunny Sargent to Admiral, from Army Chaplain to Naval Captain, Marine Corp. General to enlisted man, America’s veteran corp. remains full of a vast wealth of very expensive and thorough military training. All these men and women were trained to fight. They remember their training. They remember that they are, first and foremost, American’s sworn to protect the constitution and the American people. That never changed.[/SIZE]
And despite all that they were going to "protect" Kim Davis from duly authorized federal officers as she thumbed her nose at the very Constitution they act like they are protecting. Hypocrites who can't let go of playing soldier is more like it.

 
TL;DR

;)

Kidding, GB. Again... I am not saying that the average citizen is on with battle hardened vets. Not really sure why you keep arguing that they're not.

That said.... forgive me if I struggle to swim through the bias from a publication that "is self-described as "the flagship of the left"" and has an entire department dedicated to "disarmament". :lol:
Pretty sure the sentiments you see expressed there were not all expressed by liberals. In fact given what we know about military demographics it's likely most of them aren't. And we both know the NRA wouldn't publish it. But my point is that the average person has no business with a gun in public and never will. My point is they make no one safer and actually make everything worse. My last point is that a nation awash in guns will also be awash in the blood of innocent people. And whether you are left or right I think that gets proved pretty much everyday sadly enough.

 
A concealed-carry license holder is now cooperating with police after she opened fire on a shoplifter who was fleeing a Home Depot on Tuesday afternoon, Auburn Hills Police said.

The shooting happened in the store’s parking lot at around 2 p.m., when Home Depot security was chasing a shoplifter in his 40s who jumped into a waiting dark SUV, said Lt. Jill McDonnell, an Auburn Hills police spokeswoman.

But when the SUV began to pull away, a 48-year-old woman suddenly began firing shots at the fleeing vehicle. The vehicle escaped – but possibly has a flat tire, McDonnell said.

The woman who fired the shots has a license to carry a firearm and is cooperating with police.

It’s not clear whether the woman would face charges in the incident.

The Home Depot, located on Joslyn, is part of a retail district with hundreds of stores in the area.
This is not helping the gun owners' case that they make the world safer...

"oh look, someone is fleeing!! Maybe they stole something!!! I need to shoot them!!"

 
Interesting that there is a full industry of Concealed Carry Legal Defense Services that have popped up.... where for a negligible annual/monthly fee, you essentially have a legal team on retainer in case you're ever in a situation where you have to use your firearm.

Basically if there is an incident, you call them and are immediately connected to an attorney who calms you, advises you what to/not to say. Then they hand you off to a local Pro-2nd amendment attorney and all legal defense fees, expert witnesses, bail bonds, etc are covered by the insurance.

Very interesting stuff. There are several players in the market... looks like CCWsafe is $150/yr for two adults in a household. For a husband/wife who both carry I'm not sure that's a bad investment.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Interesting that there is a full industry of Concealed Carry Legal Defense Services that have popped up.... where for a negligible annual/monthly fee, you essentially have a legal team on retainer in case you're ever in a situation where you have to use your firearm.

Basically if there is an incident, you call them and are immediately connected to an attorney who calms you, advises you what to/not to say. Then they hand you off to a local Pro-2nd amendment attorney and all legal defense fees, expert witnesses, etc are covered by the insurance.

Very interesting stuff. There are several players in the market... looks like CCWsafe is $150/yr for two adults in a household. For a husband/wife who both carry I'm not sure that's a bad investment.
Of course, the other option is - just don't shoot anyone...you can do that for free!

 
Interesting that there is a full industry of Concealed Carry Legal Defense Services that have popped up.... where for a negligible annual/monthly fee, you essentially have a legal team on retainer in case you're ever in a situation where you have to use your firearm.

Basically if there is an incident, you call them and are immediately connected to an attorney who calms you, advises you what to/not to say. Then they hand you off to a local Pro-2nd amendment attorney and all legal defense fees, expert witnesses, etc are covered by the insurance.

Very interesting stuff. There are several players in the market... looks like CCWsafe is $150/yr for two adults in a household. For a husband/wife who both carry I'm not sure that's a bad investment.
Of course, the other option is - just don't shoot anyone...you can do that for free!
That's the plan! Sometimes life doesn't always go according to plan :)

Certainly nobody is trying to convince you to carry if you don't feel it's worthwhile or don't want the responsibility :thumbup:

 
Interesting that there is a full industry of Concealed Carry Legal Defense Services that have popped up.... where for a negligible annual/monthly fee, you essentially have a legal team on retainer in case you're ever in a situation where you have to use your firearm.

Basically if there is an incident, you call them and are immediately connected to an attorney who calms you, advises you what to/not to say. Then they hand you off to a local Pro-2nd amendment attorney and all legal defense fees, expert witnesses, etc are covered by the insurance.

Very interesting stuff. There are several players in the market... looks like CCWsafe is $150/yr for two adults in a household. For a husband/wife who both carry I'm not sure that's a bad investment.
Of course, the other option is - just don't shoot anyone...you can do that for free!
That's the plan! Sometimes life doesn't always go according to plan :)

Certainly nobody is trying to convince you to carry if you don't feel it's worthwhile or don't want the responsibility :thumbup:
Probably just as well. I'd end up shooting myself in the foot.

 
I remember when you had to prove you had a reason to carry concealed. You actually had to have some sort of reason that you might be in need of a gun in public. Not just "because I want to."

 
Interesting that there is a full industry of Concealed Carry Legal Defense Services that have popped up.... where for a negligible annual/monthly fee, you essentially have a legal team on retainer in case you're ever in a situation where you have to use your firearm.

Basically if there is an incident, you call them and are immediately connected to an attorney who calms you, advises you what to/not to say. Then they hand you off to a local Pro-2nd amendment attorney and all legal defense fees, expert witnesses, etc are covered by the insurance.

Very interesting stuff. There are several players in the market... looks like CCWsafe is $150/yr for two adults in a household. For a husband/wife who both carry I'm not sure that's a bad investment.
Of course, the other option is - just don't shoot anyone...you can do that for free!
That's the plan! Sometimes life doesn't always go according to plan :)

Certainly nobody is trying to convince you to carry if you don't feel it's worthwhile or don't want the responsibility :thumbup:
Probably just as well. I'd end up shooting myself in the foot.
Well-trained professionals have done the same.

 
otello said:
TobiasFunke said:
43 recorded instances of toddler shootings this year

Clearly the problem here is not nearly enough armed toddlers. The best way to stop a bad toddler with a gun is a good toddler with a gun. Although I also think our toddler mental health care system is partially to blame.
i think you are on to something.
I think we can all agree that toddlers operating firearms should be illegal. It's just common sense. Let's get some legislation going.

 
I just got my first gun last weekend. I grew up in a liberal, union, Irish-Catholic family and I don't think I'd ever seen a gun that wasn't on a policeman's hip until I was a teenager and moved from the cities/suburbs to a more rural area. My friend brought me skeet shooting w/ his dad when I was in high school one afternoon. I shot the shotgun about a dozen times and that was it, almost 30 years ago.

I'd always had an interest in guns but it's actually a very intimidating thing to get involved in if you don't grow up around it or in a hunting/gun family. I've lived in California and the People's Republic of NJ for the past 20+ years and as my curiosity about shooting increased my options in NJ were very limited. I started the process once for getting permits but it was a bit of a barrier for me. When I finally moved to the South (NC) I decided I was going to purchase a firearm.

There were really two reasons. The first was curiosity I had always had, I've always wanted to get involved in target shooting and hunting. It's just something I always thought I would like and while I haven't been able to start hunting yet, target shooting has been a blast. The second reason was my growing concern for my family. Not so much on the street but in my home. Two things have changed my thinking or pushed me further in a direction I already thought. First, there was a home invasion incident on a street I used to live on that was very violent and a bit frightening. Second, the aftermath after Sandy showed me how shockingly quick that regular people begin to turn dark and feral when they get desperate. I truly feel that food and power came back just in time where I lived and another week living the way we were and things were going to turn violent (as they did in some places that were worse off). I felt very vulnerable during that time (one of the very few houses that still had power and food) and I decided I wasn't going to be in that position again.

So, first, i watched about a hundred youtube videos on gun safety, gun handling, types of guns, ammo, etc., etc.. I educated myself as much as I could and was VERY sure to learn all of the basic safety rules and procedures someone growing up in a household w/ guns would have learned. Once I did that I took my wife to the range, we were both hooked. Then I brought my two teen age sons a couple times. I shot a bunch of different kinds of guns and decided what I wanted to buy for myself. Then started reading reviews and articles and narrowed down to the gun I wanted and started shopping.

In NC you have two choices. You can purchase gun permits, 1 per handgun, or you can get a CCW permit. I figured the extra $100 for the class and application would give me freedom to purchase what I want, to carry it if I ever felt I wanted to (I haven't), and it would be an opportunity in the class to learn more about something that is still a bit foreign to me. The class was actually really great. I learned so much about when, legally, you are allowed to shoot, how to protect myself, where I can and can't carry, and then we went through a ton of situational scenarios discussing when it was legally and ethically appropriate to draw my weapon and shoot. It was very enlightening. I also had to qualify on a simple range test. Afterwards you take your certificate to the sheriffs office, fill out a bunch of paperwork, fingerprint, write another check and then wait 6-8 weeks for your CCW.

I made my purchase last weekend at the Asheville gun show. I know gun shows are kind of the boogey man to the anti-gun activist but I went through the same process I would have at ****'s or Cabela's. I filled out a DOJ form, my background check and fingerprinting was done when I got my CCW (or would have been done when I got my purchase permit), and I paid my money and left with my new pistol. It's illegal to purchase a hangun in NC from a business or a private party without a permit for purchase or a CCW... even at a gun show. Now I have my gun at home, heading out to the range with it for the first time tonight. Probably taking my daughter (9yo) shooting over the weekend for the first time, she's really excited.

I don't think I'm going to carry any time soon. I would like to be more proficient before walking around with a gun on my hip and I don't live in a place where, at this point in time, i feel a need to walk around packing. My wife also just took a CCW class, she is going through the process now. She takes the kids on long hikes into the woods sometimes while I'm working, or goes walking alone and I think she may carry in those situations when she is more comfortable with the weapon.

I taught my kids gun safety right off the bat. In addition we talked about guns, gun rights, why we had a gun, the whole deal. I let them hold the gun, ask questions, and take as much mystery from it as possible. I also told them any time they wanted to see it or had curiosity to let me know and I would take it out of the safe for them. I'm also going to take them shooting regularly. I think the more familiar they are the less risk their curiosity makes them want to take a look when I'm not home (not that they'll know the safe code).

I've read through this entire thread. There are so many partisan facts, stories, stats, and observations from both sides of the gun issue. I'm sure whatever argument you give me I can find an article, link, or "expert" to successfully refute it and push my agenda with my own article, link, or "expert". I just know this. If someone broke into my home, where my little girl and precious boys and beautiful wife sleep and they're armed, I don't think having a gun is going to put me at a disadvantage. The idea that the gun puts my family at risk is absolutely absurd and most anyone actually in that situation I'm sure would agree. I know things change when you're under fire, I know being in a life and death situation is different than shooting a paper target. I also know that in that situation my family would be much safer with me behind a gun than me cowering in front of an intruder begging them not to hurt me or my family. I'm sure there are VERY long odds something like that ever happens but until that time I get to go to the range and shoot and enjoy the fun parts of owning a gun.

That's my experience going from a liberal, gun fearing upbringing to having my own CCW permit and gun. Is society safer now that I can walk around with a gun in my waistband? I don't know. I do know it gives me peace of mind and enjoyment and I'm going to spend as much time as I came becoming a proficient shooter because it's fun and so that I am prepared if, God forbid, the day ever comes that I need to draw my weapon.
 
otello said:
TobiasFunke said:
43 recorded instances of toddler shootings this year

Clearly the problem here is not nearly enough armed toddlers. The best way to stop a bad toddler with a gun is a good toddler with a gun. Although I also think our toddler mental health care system is partially to blame.
i think you are on to something.
I think we can all agree that toddlers operating firearms should be illegal. It's just common sense. Let's get some legislation going.
Tried some. Didn't work. From the article:

There are policy and technical responses to preventable childhood gun deaths as well. States and localities could require guns to be locked up at home, a policy supported by 67 percent of Americans. Various types of smart gun technology, which prevent anyone other than their owners from firing a given gun, exist as well. But gun lock requirements and smart guns have been vehemently opposed by the National Rifle Association and its allies.
 
otello said:
TobiasFunke said:
43 recorded instances of toddler shootings this year

Clearly the problem here is not nearly enough armed toddlers. The best way to stop a bad toddler with a gun is a good toddler with a gun. Although I also think our toddler mental health care system is partially to blame.
i think you are on to something.
I think we can all agree that toddlers operating firearms should be illegal. It's just common sense. Let's get some legislation going.
Uh, are you trying to infringe on my toddlers 2nd Amendment rights?!?!? :D

 
That's my experience going from a liberal, gun fearing upbringing to having my own CCW permit and gun. Is society safer now that I can walk around with a gun in my waistband? I don't know. I do know it gives me peace of mind and enjoyment and I'm going to spend as much time as I came becoming a proficient shooter because it's fun and so that I am prepared if, God forbid, the day ever comes that I need to draw my weapon.
I grew up hunting and target shooting. A long time ago I decided hunting really was not my thing. This was mostly about not liking the taste of most of the birds/deer/rabbit that we hunted as well as not enjoying the field dressing process as well.

Long after, I still would love to shoot targets. Skeet is hecka fun and for me was 75% of what was enjoyable about bird hunting anyways. However, it has just been a very long time since I actually done it. Since moving to the Chicagoland area I just have not ended up being friends with those who did it and never had the inclination to go by myself. I still own a single shotgun and I do plan on buying a handgun- perhaps more shotguns/rifles down the road as well but we are still healing financially from the Great Recession and it is not something I have chosen to spend 'extra' cash on.

I have a 4 year old girl, a 2 year old boy and another boy on the way. I have always planned on teaching them proper gun handeling and safety. I went to an NRA safety course and would send them as well. That being said, I will never leave a weapon available for them. They will be locked up. Even with my extensive background and safety and there was no mystery- there was times I snuck a view of the gun. For me, it was almost like I could do it because I knew what I was doing and how to handle it safely. I never handled it in a way that was unsafe but it was forbidden for me to handle them by myself.

I do plan on going through the CCW process for Illinois and will carry but like owning more weapons- at this time it is not high on the priority list.

I do think that there are a lot of idiots out there that ought not have a weapon. Just as much as I believe there are a lot of idiots out there that ought not be able to drive too. The only problem is that owning a weapon is a Constitutional right. That right is not about hunting or the pride of gun ownership- it is about our political system. Now, just as much as a person can not yell "fire" in a theatre as part of free speech, the 2nd Amendment is not a blanket ability to own a weapon. So, I am fine with most "gun control" things that are brought up but the problem is that they just do not really address the problem or do anything to stop the problem. I do not trust liberals to stop and really think through how to address the problem until they move away from their 'guns are evil' presumption.

The very essence of freedom means that there is personal responsibility that is required to enjoy that freedom. Not everyone is fit to be responsible. And void of personal responsibility freedom is extremely dangerous. Whether we are talking about taking care of their own financial needs in life or driving a car or owning a weapon. The US was built around allowing for individual ability to succeed or fail. With gun ownership, failure can have devastating results.

 
I passed the Federal background check. Picked up my pistol this afternoon. I'll be taking it to the range this Saturday and put it through its paces. :thumbup:

 
Chadstroma said:
That's my experience going from a liberal, gun fearing upbringing to having my own CCW permit and gun. Is society safer now that I can walk around with a gun in my waistband? I don't know. I do know it gives me peace of mind and enjoyment and I'm going to spend as much time as I came becoming a proficient shooter because it's fun and so that I am prepared if, God forbid, the day ever comes that I need to draw my weapon.
I grew up hunting and target shooting. A long time ago I decided hunting really was not my thing. This was mostly about not liking the taste of most of the birds/deer/rabbit that we hunted as well as not enjoying the field dressing process as well.

Long after, I still would love to shoot targets. Skeet is hecka fun and for me was 75% of what was enjoyable about bird hunting anyways. However, it has just been a very long time since I actually done it. Since moving to the Chicagoland area I just have not ended up being friends with those who did it and never had the inclination to go by myself. I still own a single shotgun and I do plan on buying a handgun- perhaps more shotguns/rifles down the road as well but we are still healing financially from the Great Recession and it is not something I have chosen to spend 'extra' cash on.

I have a 4 year old girl, a 2 year old boy and another boy on the way. I have always planned on teaching them proper gun handeling and safety. I went to an NRA safety course and would send them as well. That being said, I will never leave a weapon available for them. They will be locked up. Even with my extensive background and safety and there was no mystery- there was times I snuck a view of the gun. For me, it was almost like I could do it because I knew what I was doing and how to handle it safely. I never handled it in a way that was unsafe but it was forbidden for me to handle them by myself.

I do plan on going through the CCW process for Illinois and will carry but like owning more weapons- at this time it is not high on the priority list.

I do think that there are a lot of idiots out there that ought not have a weapon. Just as much as I believe there are a lot of idiots out there that ought not be able to drive too. The only problem is that owning a weapon is a Constitutional right. That right is not about hunting or the pride of gun ownership- it is about our political system. Now, just as much as a person can not yell "fire" in a theatre as part of free speech, the 2nd Amendment is not a blanket ability to own a weapon. So, I am fine with most "gun control" things that are brought up but the problem is that they just do not really address the problem or do anything to stop the problem. I do not trust liberals to stop and really think through how to address the problem until they move away from their 'guns are evil' presumption.

The very essence of freedom means that there is personal responsibility that is required to enjoy that freedom. Not everyone is fit to be responsible. And void of personal responsibility freedom is extremely dangerous. Whether we are talking about taking care of their own financial needs in life or driving a car or owning a weapon. The US was built around allowing for individual ability to succeed or fail. With gun ownership, failure can have devastating results.
I don't plan on ever leaving any guns lying around. I have a cable lock on it because I just bought it but I'm shopping for a bio-safe now.

As for gun rights I agree and often look at it like cars. If we based our decisions on lives lost then not many of us would be driving cars around. EASILY the most dangerous and life threatening thing we do every single day. Then we let 16 year kids cram 6 of their friends into a hatchback and drive off into the night with the stereo controls in one hand and their cell phone in the other. You want to stop death, concentrate on that and then we'll move on to guns when that problem is solved. And yes, way more innocent people killed in these drunken and texting wrecks than by guns. Not many people are advocating we ban cars. I know it's not a direct comparison but when you look at the numbers the perspective changes. Especially when you compare it to non-crime/gang related gun violence which is what we're talking about most of the time when people get riled up about guns. Nobody seems to really care when black people shoot each other in Chicago, a non-story.

The latest shooter, the Oregan guy, was yet another lonely and disaffected young male, riddled with anti-psych meds. I know the left is tired of hearing it but if we want to examine this rationally we have to look at the drugs. Every one of these drugs has a side affect of suicidal thoughts and we know the epidemic of suicides that follows long term use of SSRI's. Honestly, how far from a suicidal thought is a homicidal thought? It's becoming more of a copycat/sport than anything else. Malcolm Gladwell just wrote a really good piece in the New Yorker discussing it, really interesting...

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence

 
Leviathan said:
I passed the Federal background check. Picked up my pistol this afternoon. I'll be taking it to the range this Saturday and put it through its paces. :thumbup:
What did you buy?

 
Phew! One more armed citizen on the street to protect us from those Russians that parachute in on Swayze and his buddies on the football team.

 
Leviathan said:
I passed the Federal background check. Picked up my pistol this afternoon. I'll be taking it to the range this Saturday and put it through its paces. :thumbup:
This basically means you are going to wear bad 80's headphones and punch holes in a piece of paper, more or less?

 
If a person with a CCW causes injury to a bystander, are they given any latitude in being prosecuted? In other words, if they accidentally shoot someone while trying to stop a crime, is there prosecutorial discretion allowed? Could someone claim good intentions and avoid prosecution?

I certainly hope there's very little.
Victims of crime should have to protect themselves. If I was carrying and observed a violent crime taking place I wouldn't intervene, especially if the victim was from a known liberal demographic. I'd just watch it play out from a distance and protect myself if necessary, maybe call the cops if there was a break in the action. There really isn't much good that can come from intervening in stopping crime, maybe in Texas you can but not in my area. Kill the criminal and you get a Murder 1 charge. The liberal jurors typically throw the book at people who attempt to stop crimes with guns and end up injuring the criminal. God forbid you injure a bystander trying to stop a crime.

 
We actually went over this a lot. You can only shoot someone for 3 possible reasons. If you are about to suffer Death, Serious Bodily Harm, or Sexual Assault. If some drunk throws a punch or someone is running off with your tv or driving off in your car you are definitely not legally allowed to shoot them. Nor, morally, would I feel justified in shooting them. Deadly force is used to protect yourself from only those three things above.

If you witness someone else who is suffering or about to suffer one of those three things you can intervene, legally, with deadly force. It's as if what happened to them was happening to you. You shoot someone for robbing a store or in a street fight then you're probably going to jail. You see a guy stabbing someone or stomping on someone who is unconscious you may intervene. Seriously bodily harm was described as permanent disfigurement or harm. Lost teeth, broken limbs, internal injuries type of beating.... not a black eye or split lip. It's DEFINITELY subjective but the instructor said "If you have to think about the situation and weight it in your mind you probalby shouldn't be shooting, if you feel you absolutely must shoot to stop something terrible then it's more likely you're in the right".

However, our instructor was ex-LEO. He gave a few scenarios, including one where a guy walked around an ally corner and saw a dude assaulting a woman with a knife. He shoots, perp dies. Turns out the perp was attacked by the woman and her boyfriend and the boyfriend ran off and they were struggling. He stabbed in self-defense only to have the Lone Ranger see the tail end of the fight and pop a few into him. So when intervening in something you're not involved in it was stressed to be ABSOLUTELY sure what you're getting involved in. If you didnt' see it start you don't know who the instigator is.

That was the caveat, you could NOT be the instigator. If you start a fist fight, then a guy is beating you near to death and you shoot him, not justified. You instigated. So if you intervene half way through an altercation, even if you save someone's life form a real thug, if the guy you saved instigated the fracas then you're going to jail.

That's all criminal law, it doesn't even touch the civil side where people can sue you for almost anything. A lot of the gung-ho literature from the "look at me and my gun" guys says things like every bullet has a lawyer's name attached it, make sure there is only 1 side of the story, dead man can't testify and things like that. Most of that is false bravado but I'm sure some of that goes on also.

This is all NC laws, by the way, different in each state. We are also a castle law, stand your ground state in NC. If someone breaks into your home or your car while you're in it (which I didn't know) then that person is ASSUMED to be intending bodily harm, death , or assault. You can legally shoot that person even if you don't see a weapon or they don't advance towards you. If they retreat then you cannot fire. Someone tries to jack your car or breaks in during the middle of the night you have a lot more rights to defend yourself than on the public street. No matter WHAT the situation is, even if someone just killed someone... once they begin to flee you are not allowed to shoot. Even if they're carrying your tv away.

You can shoot if there is an abduction. If someone is running off with your kid or wife or something you can shoot them, but of course that has its own risks.

I actually really enjoyed a lot of the conversation in the CCW class. It was really interesting and the instructor had been involved in 3 shootings, two on the job and one a late night break-in at his house. Half the people in the class were there because they had recently suffered some kind of assault or crime.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I haven't purchased a firearm in the Golden State for over 20 years. This is the process that I went through to do so. I personally do not have any objections to the requirements.

Looking for opinions regarding whether or not the requirements are enough, or should it be more difficult to do so.

1. Your ID (drivers lisense or state ID) plus proof of your physical address. Vehicle registration, utility bill qualifies.

2. A 30 question test. 10 questions are True or False. The remaining questions are multiple choice.

3. A thumbprint is required, followed by a federal background check.

4. 10 day waiting period.

Is there room for improvement?
I'd be interested in the type of questions

Were they primarily tactical, or were they more "what would you do" in x situation?

 
However, our instructor was ex-LEO. He gave a few scenarios, including one where a guy walked around an ally corner and saw a dude assaulting a woman with a knife. He shoots, perp dies. Turns out the perp was attacked by the woman and her boyfriend and the boyfriend ran off and they were struggling. He stabbed in self-defense only to have the Lone Ranger see the tail end of the fight and pop a few into him. So when intervening in something you're not involved in it was stressed to be ABSOLUTELY sure what you're getting involved in. If you didnt' see it start you don't know who the instigator is.
We got this same scenario.

CCW isn't about playing barney fife.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Leviathan said:
I passed the Federal background check. Picked up my pistol this afternoon. I'll be taking it to the range this Saturday and put it through its paces. :thumbup:
This basically means you are going to wear bad 80's headphones and punch holes in a piece of paper, more or less?
Yes, more or less. I'll also be firing bullets of different designs and weights.
 
I haven't purchased a firearm in the Golden State for over 20 years. This is the process that I went through to do so. I personally do not have any objections to the requirements.

Looking for opinions regarding whether or not the requirements are enough, or should it be more difficult to do so.

1. Your ID (drivers lisense or state ID) plus proof of your physical address. Vehicle registration, utility bill qualifies.

2. A 30 question test. 10 questions are True or False. The remaining questions are multiple choice.

3. A thumbprint is required, followed by a federal background check.

4. 10 day waiting period.

Is there room for improvement?
I'd be interested in the type of questionsWere they primarily tactical, or were they more "what would you do" in x situation?
No tactical situations were in the test. The test is also required in order to purchase a shotgun or rifle. It has nothing to do with concealed carry.http://www.turners.com/info/firearm-safety-certificate

Download the PDF from the link and you'll get the jist of what questions are asked.

 
Chadstroma said:
That's my experience going from a liberal, gun fearing upbringing to having my own CCW permit and gun. Is society safer now that I can walk around with a gun in my waistband? I don't know. I do know it gives me peace of mind and enjoyment and I'm going to spend as much time as I came becoming a proficient shooter because it's fun and so that I am prepared if, God forbid, the day ever comes that I need to draw my weapon.
I grew up hunting and target shooting. A long time ago I decided hunting really was not my thing. This was mostly about not liking the taste of most of the birds/deer/rabbit that we hunted as well as not enjoying the field dressing process as well.

Long after, I still would love to shoot targets. Skeet is hecka fun and for me was 75% of what was enjoyable about bird hunting anyways. However, it has just been a very long time since I actually done it. Since moving to the Chicagoland area I just have not ended up being friends with those who did it and never had the inclination to go by myself. I still own a single shotgun and I do plan on buying a handgun- perhaps more shotguns/rifles down the road as well but we are still healing financially from the Great Recession and it is not something I have chosen to spend 'extra' cash on.

I have a 4 year old girl, a 2 year old boy and another boy on the way. I have always planned on teaching them proper gun handeling and safety. I went to an NRA safety course and would send them as well. That being said, I will never leave a weapon available for them. They will be locked up. Even with my extensive background and safety and there was no mystery- there was times I snuck a view of the gun. For me, it was almost like I could do it because I knew what I was doing and how to handle it safely. I never handled it in a way that was unsafe but it was forbidden for me to handle them by myself.

I do plan on going through the CCW process for Illinois and will carry but like owning more weapons- at this time it is not high on the priority list.

I do think that there are a lot of idiots out there that ought not have a weapon. Just as much as I believe there are a lot of idiots out there that ought not be able to drive too. The only problem is that owning a weapon is a Constitutional right. That right is not about hunting or the pride of gun ownership- it is about our political system. Now, just as much as a person can not yell "fire" in a theatre as part of free speech, the 2nd Amendment is not a blanket ability to own a weapon. So, I am fine with most "gun control" things that are brought up but the problem is that they just do not really address the problem or do anything to stop the problem. I do not trust liberals to stop and really think through how to address the problem until they move away from their 'guns are evil' presumption.

The very essence of freedom means that there is personal responsibility that is required to enjoy that freedom. Not everyone is fit to be responsible. And void of personal responsibility freedom is extremely dangerous. Whether we are talking about taking care of their own financial needs in life or driving a car or owning a weapon. The US was built around allowing for individual ability to succeed or fail. With gun ownership, failure can have devastating results.
I don't plan on ever leaving any guns lying around. I have a cable lock on it because I just bought it but I'm shopping for a bio-safe now.

As for gun rights I agree and often look at it like cars. If we based our decisions on lives lost then not many of us would be driving cars around. EASILY the most dangerous and life threatening thing we do every single day. Then we let 16 year kids cram 6 of their friends into a hatchback and drive off into the night with the stereo controls in one hand and their cell phone in the other. You want to stop death, concentrate on that and then we'll move on to guns when that problem is solved. And yes, way more innocent people killed in these drunken and texting wrecks than by guns. Not many people are advocating we ban cars. I know it's not a direct comparison but when you look at the numbers the perspective changes. Especially when you compare it to non-crime/gang related gun violence which is what we're talking about most of the time when people get riled up about guns. Nobody seems to really care when black people shoot each other in Chicago, a non-story.

The latest shooter, the Oregan guy, was yet another lonely and disaffected young male, riddled with anti-psych meds. I know the left is tired of hearing it but if we want to examine this rationally we have to look at the drugs. Every one of these drugs has a side affect of suicidal thoughts and we know the epidemic of suicides that follows long term use of SSRI's. Honestly, how far from a suicidal thought is a homicidal thought? It's becoming more of a copycat/sport than anything else. Malcolm Gladwell just wrote a really good piece in the New Yorker discussing it, really interesting...

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence
I don't have a problem with your gun ownership but there are at least three incredibly awful arguments here.

1. Guns are different from cars because cars are a necessity of modern life. They exist on a wide scale in every industrialized nation. You literally can't ask people to stop using them or put severe restrictions on their usage. People wouldn't be able to get to their jobs or schools, to visit with their families on holidays, to care for sick or elderly family and friends. Guns do none of that. Comparing the two is absurd. It's basically like saying we should stop trying to regulate drunk driving because heart disease kills way more people. The two are totally unrelated.

2. You'll be happy to know there are many efforts being made to stop people from texting and driving. There are laws in place in many places, and ad campaigns up the wazoo. Pretending those things don't exist so you can further an invalid argument about skewed priorities is disingenuous.

3. I've done the "nobody cares about black people shooting each other in Chicago," but I guess I have to do it again: it's a stupid and callous argument. First, it's obviously different because most of it is not random, and random/unavoidable violence makes the news while gang and drug wars, which are tragic but for most people easily avoided, do not. Also, lots of people- most of them the liberals you deride elsewhere in your post- DO care about that violence. We do lots of things to stop it. We support changes to drug and sentencing laws. We support public housing funding and other integration efforts. We lobby for changes to police practices that make many urban blacks feel marginalized. We support increased funding for education and related programs to give those people a better chance at success and less of a reason to turn to the behavior that results in gun violence. You know who opposes those things? The same two-faced dooshbags who ask why "nobody cares about the people dying in Chicago!" every time there's some gun violence tragedy in the news and then turn their back on the people dying in Chicago as soon as the front page news story goes away.

4. I'm on board with taking a closer look at the side effects of meds, so we're in agreement there. I like that a lot, actually. Why do you think "the left" doesn't want to hear that? Let's get those people access to real mental health care so they can do better than just a primary care doctor who just prescribes them some pills and sends them on their way. Of course that would require reforming our health insurance system to mandate increased coverage for all who need it ... and guess who opposes that? And we'd need to fund studies as well, by government researchers free of bias. I've got some guesses as to who would oppose that, too.

I'm not even a big anti-gun guy. But come on. These are not valid arguments.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I haven't purchased a firearm in the Golden State for over 20 years. This is the process that I went through to do so. I personally do not have any objections to the requirements.

Looking for opinions regarding whether or not the requirements are enough, or should it be more difficult to do so.

1. Your ID (drivers lisense or state ID) plus proof of your physical address. Vehicle registration, utility bill qualifies.

2. A 30 question test. 10 questions are True or False. The remaining questions are multiple choice.

3. A thumbprint is required, followed by a federal background check.

4. 10 day waiting period.

Is there room for improvement?
I'd be interested in the type of questionsWere they primarily tactical, or were they more "what would you do" in x situation?
One of the question they should ask 18-30 year old males is "Do you get laid on a regular basis". If the answer is no then gun purchase is immediately denied, however, if prostitution is allowed in the state then the purchase should be allowed to proceed.

 
Forgot to add that you need to physically display how to load, fire, unload, eject the magazine and render the weapon to be in a safe condition.
do they show you how to do this and then you have to repeat it, or do you have to have some range time with the gun you wanna buy?

 
Maik Jeaunz said:
Forgot to add that you need to physically display how to load, fire, unload, eject the magazine and render the weapon to be in a safe condition.
do they show you how to do this and then you have to repeat it, or do you have to have some range time with the gun you wanna buy?
No, they do not show you how to do that. Range time is unnecessary. They place the weapon in front of you and direct you to:1. Remove the trigger lock. In my case, it was a cable lock.

2. Load the magazine. Dummy bullets.

3. Insert the magazine and "fire" the weapon.

4. Remove the magazine, confirm that the weapon is unloaded.

5. Lock the slide and put the cable lock back onto the pistol.

That was it. I suppose that if you couldn't do it, they would walk you through it.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Maik Jeaunz said:
Forgot to add that you need to physically display how to load, fire, unload, eject the magazine and render the weapon to be in a safe condition.
do they show you how to do this and then you have to repeat it, or do you have to have some range time with the gun you wanna buy?
No, they do not show you how to do that. Range time is unnecessary. They place the weapon in front of you and direct you to:1. Remove the trigger lock. In my case, it was a cable lock.

2. Load the magazine. Dummy bullets.

3. Insert the magazine and "fire" the weapon.

4. Remove the magazine, confirm that the weapon is unloaded.

5. Lock the slide and put the cable lock back onto the pistol.

That was it. I suppose that if you couldn't do it, they would walk you through it.
Do you get rejected if you shoot it sideways?

 
Maik Jeaunz said:
Forgot to add that you need to physically display how to load, fire, unload, eject the magazine and render the weapon to be in a safe condition.
do they show you how to do this and then you have to repeat it, or do you have to have some range time with the gun you wanna buy?
No, they do not show you how to do that. Range time is unnecessary. They place the weapon in front of you and direct you to:1. Remove the trigger lock. In my case, it was a cable lock.

2. Load the magazine. Dummy bullets.3. Insert the magazine and "fire" the weapon.

4. Remove the magazine, confirm that the weapon is unloaded.

5. Lock the slide and put the cable lock back onto the pistol.

That was it. I suppose that if you couldn't do it, they would walk you through it.
Do you get rejected if you shoot it sideways?
Good question! :lol: Dunno. It's Cali. Up is down. Down is up, so who knows?If I drove to Idaho and bought a TV, the state of California requires me to pay a sales tax (fat chance) on said TV, even though I purchased the TV in another state.

 
Maik Jeaunz said:
Forgot to add that you need to physically display how to load, fire, unload, eject the magazine and render the weapon to be in a safe condition.
do they show you how to do this and then you have to repeat it, or do you have to have some range time with the gun you wanna buy?
No, they do not show you how to do that. Range time is unnecessary. They place the weapon in front of you and direct you to:1. Remove the trigger lock. In my case, it was a cable lock.

2. Load the magazine. Dummy bullets.3. Insert the magazine and "fire" the weapon.

4. Remove the magazine, confirm that the weapon is unloaded.

5. Lock the slide and put the cable lock back onto the pistol.

That was it. I suppose that if you couldn't do it, they would walk you through it.
Do you get rejected if you shoot it sideways?
Good question! :lol: Dunno. It's Cali. Up is down. Down is up, so who knows?If I drove to Idaho and bought a TV, the state of California requires me to pay a sales tax (fat chance) on said TV, even though I purchased the TV in another state.
The Great State of The Peoples Republic of California has vays of making you pay.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top