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Indefinite New England Patriots Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter captain_amazing
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
Drafting is an inexact science, but the Pats seem to be doing what they've done in recent drafts . . . taking guys too early. They took Polk as the 10th WR off the board when he's been considered the 18th top WR prospect. I've seen him listed as the #65 prospect and they grabbed him at #37. Wallace was expected to be a 4th round pick and they took him at the top of the third. I've seen him ranked as the #130 prospect in the draft and they took him at #68. He's been described as being a depth tackle that could be able to play multiple positions on the line (but needs a lot of development). They needed a starting LT, and I don't see Wallace as being that guy. Like every other draft pick, we'll have to wait and see how things turn out.
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pollardsvision
Footballguy
Somebody is going to get a great value with Tez Walker today.
Bossman
Footballguy
I agree. Previous drafts, it felt like "I'm BB and I'm smarter that 31 other gm's, every scout, and all analysts"
... now they do it without BB. Something wacky is in the water in Foxboro.
Another Guard here in round 4. Maybe they plan on using a 6 man O-line.
I'm very underwhelmed with this draft class to this point. It's starting to feel like the new GM is in over his head.
Bossman
Footballguy
With the exception of two round 6 picks and a round 7 pick, here's your 2024 draft class:
RD 1
#3
Drake Maye QB, UNC
Height: 6-4, Weight: 230
RD 2
#37
Ja'Lynn Polk WR, WASH
Height: 6-2, Weight: 204
RD 3
#68
Caedan Wallace IOL, PSU
Height: 6-5, Weight: 328
RD 4
#103
Layden Robinson IOL, TXAM
Height: 6-4, Weight: 315
RD 4
#110
Javon Baker WR, UCF
Height: 6-1, Weight: 208
==============================
A QB, 2 WR, 2 guard - Seems redundant considering last year they drafted:
3 OL - Andrews, Sow, Mafi
2 WR - Boutte, Douglass
Seems they are using the "throw enough Schlitz at the wall, some will stick" strategy
because I can't imagine all these OL's and WR's ever being on the field at the same time.
RD 1
#3
Drake Maye QB, UNC
Height: 6-4, Weight: 230
RD 2
#37
Ja'Lynn Polk WR, WASH
Height: 6-2, Weight: 204
RD 3
#68
Caedan Wallace IOL, PSU
Height: 6-5, Weight: 328
RD 4
#103
Layden Robinson IOL, TXAM
Height: 6-4, Weight: 315
RD 4
#110
Javon Baker WR, UCF
Height: 6-1, Weight: 208
==============================
A QB, 2 WR, 2 guard - Seems redundant considering last year they drafted:
3 OL - Andrews, Sow, Mafi
2 WR - Boutte, Douglass
Seems they are using the "throw enough Schlitz at the wall, some will stick" strategy
because I can't imagine all these OL's and WR's ever being on the field at the same time.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
I'm an outsider just here for Drake, but it looks like a good strategy to me.
If an offense has been atrocious, throwing schlitz against the wall at OL and WR to support a good young QB makes a lot of sense. Particularly given where the talent is in this draft. Certainly not the year to avoid WR because you got some last year.
As with all draft picks, who knows how it goes, but if they hit, a Texans/Packers type of surprise season seems possible.
Lansdowne
Footballguy
Just a side note, Wallace played exclusively at right tackle in college and Wolf said he can play left tackle, where I assume they will attempt to develop him.
Boston
Footballguy
I am very pleased with what they did...without any real extra draft capital they were not in a position to make many moves so it was pretty much stick and pick outside of that one deal netting an extra #4...positionally I could not be happier...they needed to focus on offense, and they did with 7/8 picks being on that side of the ball...right now the most important thing is developing Maye and hopefully some of these kids pan out and grow with him...I also like that pretty much all of these kids played at big time schools and have a lot of starts under their belt...the O-line and WR units just got a lot more competitive which was badly needed...I like the dart throws on Milton and Bell...the Wolf regime appears to be focused on drafting and development...I think they did a good job on the draft and now we will get to see if Mayo and company are up to the task of developing these kids...the development of this draft class will give us a very good idea whether Wolf and Mayo are the right hires.
Boston
Footballguy
Undrafted FA's...gotta love getting the stating center from LSU...hopefully it is David Andrews part two:
www.patspulpit.com
Patriots UDFA tracker: Signings, rumors, analysis
The draft is in the books. The scramble for rookie free agents has begun.
www.patspulpit.com
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Draft recap
003 - Drake Maye QB UNC (ESPN rank 6, PFF rank 3)
037 - Ja'Lynn Polk WR Washington (ESPN rank 60, PFF rank 48)
068 - Caedan Wallace OT Penn State (ESPN rank 124, PFF rank 142)
103 - Layden Robinson G Texas A&M (ESPN rank 194, PFF rank 263)
110 - Javon Baker WR UCF (ESPN rank 87, PFF rank 78)
180 - Marcellus Dial CB South Carolina (ESPN rank 320, PFF rank 276)
193 - Joe Milton QB Tennessee (ESPN rank 277, PFF rank 217)
231 - Jaheim Bell TE Flordia State (ESPN rank 145, PFF rank 155)
Ultimately, the success or failure of the draft will come down to whether Maye is the guy or he's not, but if this had been the same draft but under BB instead, people would be bashing it for overreaching on most of these selections. I am not familiar with most of the picks, but it appears they got decent value on Baker and Bell (although is sounds like Bell may not have a position to play in the NFL). As with very draft and every team, we won't know how this will turn out for several years, but IMO the new regime could have done better in selecting higher rated prospects (not that the player evals and ratings out there are right all that often). For all those years of not having an early pick, other than Maye, they certainly didn't seem to have much of an advantage drafting at the top of the otherrounds.
003 - Drake Maye QB UNC (ESPN rank 6, PFF rank 3)
037 - Ja'Lynn Polk WR Washington (ESPN rank 60, PFF rank 48)
068 - Caedan Wallace OT Penn State (ESPN rank 124, PFF rank 142)
103 - Layden Robinson G Texas A&M (ESPN rank 194, PFF rank 263)
110 - Javon Baker WR UCF (ESPN rank 87, PFF rank 78)
180 - Marcellus Dial CB South Carolina (ESPN rank 320, PFF rank 276)
193 - Joe Milton QB Tennessee (ESPN rank 277, PFF rank 217)
231 - Jaheim Bell TE Flordia State (ESPN rank 145, PFF rank 155)
Ultimately, the success or failure of the draft will come down to whether Maye is the guy or he's not, but if this had been the same draft but under BB instead, people would be bashing it for overreaching on most of these selections. I am not familiar with most of the picks, but it appears they got decent value on Baker and Bell (although is sounds like Bell may not have a position to play in the NFL). As with very draft and every team, we won't know how this will turn out for several years, but IMO the new regime could have done better in selecting higher rated prospects (not that the player evals and ratings out there are right all that often). For all those years of not having an early pick, other than Maye, they certainly didn't seem to have much of an advantage drafting at the top of the otherrounds.
Boston
Footballguy
Eliot Wolf Planted His Flag in the Patriots War Room, Drafting for Needs, Superhuman Athletes and Cocky WRs
I appreciate that my colleague Steven Cheah gave the Patriots an A grade on this draft. Sincerely. And his opinion seems to be at least in the general vicinity of the consensus. NFL.com gave them a B....
Boston
Footballguy
Curran: Pats get Drake Maye the help he needs in productive draft
The Patriots didn’t mess around after taking Drake Maye at No. 3. Tom E. Curran shares his take on a business-like 2024 NFL Draft for Eliot Wolf and Co.
www.nbcsportsboston.com
Ditto.
They had clear holes to fill and they went after filling those holes. In years past, we'd go into drafts with clear needs and Bill would of course zig when everyone thought he'd zag. If he were still around, half of the picks would probably be on the defensive side of the ball and I'd be pulling my hair out.
Everyone is saying that Polk is a reach. Could be, but I see Polk and Baker as kind of a package deal where Baker being a supposed "steal" offsets any reaching on Polk.
As for lineman, who knows.
Love the late dart throw on Milton too (Zappe gone?) and Bell seems like C. Patterson II. Decent gambles.
Hopefully this draft raises the floor of the team. Doubt it increases the ceiling and win total, but we know next year will be rough.
Boston
Footballguy
Agreed...next year is gonna be a tough one...there is just no way around it...my hope is between this draft class and some of the other youngsters from the BB era we have the makings of a solid foundation...if that is the case they will have far more flexibility in next year's draft...with Maye onboard they will be in a spot to potentially cash in on their high pick with a QB-needy team and be able to maneuver up and down the board which just wasn't an option this year.
Boston
Footballguy
Here is some very good news...Barmore extended...starting to have hope for the future!
www.bostonherald.com
Source: Patriots, Christian Barmore agree to contract extension
Source: The Patriots and defensive tackle Christian Barmore have agreed to terms on a contract extension.
www.bostonherald.com
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I tend to disagree with both of you on this. Drafting players just to have more options at a position doesn't necessarily mean those guys are good. Many times, it means a team is desperate to get someone in those roles. Put another way, there is a very high probability that they passed on more impactful players that fell at other positions because they had blinders on to force themselves to reach for guys at positions of need.
I find this situation similar to inexperienced fantasy owners in a draft. They know they need WRs, so they take three WR in a row in rounds 3, 4, and 5. But they take guys ranked 48, 52, and a guy that was a Top 20 WR eight years ago hoping for a bounce back at age 32.
Here is their WR room at the moment:
Bourne, Osborn, Douglas, Smith-Schuster, Polk, JBaker, Thornton, Reagor, Boutte, Luther, KBaker
They can't keep all of those guys, so half of them will likely be gone. They just signed / re-signed Bourne, Osborn, and Reagor, so I can't see them getting cut. They just drafted Polk and Baker (and Pop isn't going anywhere). That's 6 players right there. Why are JJSS, Thornton, Boutte, and the two player squad guys still around?
Here is the OL grouping:
Onwenu, Sow, JAndrews, Strange, Okorafor, DAndrews, Wallace, Leverett, Anderson, McDermott, Lowe, Mafi, Anderson, Wheatley, Jordan
That's a lot of bodies, but probably not a lot of talent. Dante Scarnecchia isn't there to work his magic. Maybe the 5 guys they drafted these past two drafts can develop into something, but this year they took the 16th and 25th OL players drafted. Last year, they took numbers 17, 20, and 24. They didn't take one of the top 15 picks at OL in either draft.
IMO, after free agency and the draft, both of those groups are still Bottom 5 in the league. They have very little experience, and most of the players that have experience haven't done much. We still have no idea if the coaching staff can develop players, call games, game plan, or make in game adjustments as they haven't had much experience either.
Again, we haven't seen any of these guys on the field and have no idea if the new coaching staff will be stellar, average, or terrible. It's literally a wait and see situation (and hope for the best).
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I like Barmore, but I don't know if I like Barmore at $20 or $21 million a year. We'll have to see what the contract terms are. I saw $41.8 million guaranteed.Here is some very good news...Barmore extended...starting to have hope for the future!
Source: Patriots, Christian Barmore agree to contract extension
Source: The Patriots and defensive tackle Christian Barmore have agreed to terms on a contract extension.
Boston
Footballguy
Well looks like we can agree to disagree.
Who's scouting players for the Patriots. Is it a brand new group?
Polk was a good trade down spot. Wallace would've likely been available a round later, or if you're in love with him, trade down. Same for Robinson.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I believe it's mostly the same people in the scouting department and the same player personnel folks. After BB had some shaky drafts, the Kraft's indicated (at least publicly) that there would be a bigger group of people involved in the player evaluation and a more democratic draft pick selection process. One of the things they decided to focus in on was more athletic players (including an emphasis on relative athletic scores). As such, they ended up drafting some players with high RAS grades but that didn't make them great NFL players (Tyquan Thorton, Curtis Strange, and Pierre Strong come to mind). I believe the core of that group returned intact with the primary difference being BB obviously was no longer involved.
Eliot Wolf has been with the Patriots since 2020. By the time he took over player personnel in GB, the team already had Aaron Rodgers. In 3 seasons as the Director of Player Personnel or Football Operations for the Packers, the only notable picks GB made were on Aaron Jones and Jamaal Williams. Hard to tell how much he was involved in the draft prep process as a Director of Pro Personnel for 3 years, but those drafts landed GB OT David Bakhtiari, WR Davante Adams, and C Corey Linsley. Those are the only notable selections across 6 drafts there.
IIRC, one of the first things the Browns did when Wolf got there was to draft Baker Mayfield #1 overall. They also got Nick Chubb in that draft. Those were the two notable pieces the Browns added with Wolf there. Who knows what any of that all means, but that's the back drop of the primary guy in NE now.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
I'm guessing (seems obvious?) you don't think much of the players drafted.
That's fine, I have no idea how they will turn out.
What I don't understand is assuming it's a mistake to go heavy WR/OL in a draft where much of the talent is in WR/OL for a team that really needs WR/OL.
Boston
Footballguy
Not addressing those positions (especially after drafting a QB at #3) would have been sports malpractice…last year we saw what happens when you ignore glaring holes and draft Safeties from Sacramento State instead…hopefully the Pats rebuild and get to a point where drafting BPA is viable but this was not the year to do it and it was beyond obvious that they needed to go all in on offense this draft to address monster holes and to start surrounding Maye with functional NFL talent.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I don't have an opinion of the players that were drafted, but I do have some questions as to the strategy and methodology of who they picked. As we all know, it could be years before we find out who were hits and who were misses. As for the narrative that drafts are deeper at certain positions, that generally means there are multiple options near the top of the draft that there probably are not there in most drafts. For example, there may be 4 or 5 tackles in most first rounds. This one I think had 8. That doesn't necessarily mean the 6th round is stocked full of guys that would be rated as second round picks but fell because there were 30 good ones available.
As far as the WR go, I heard that they aren't burners and aren't known for their separation. They are said to be good at fighting for the ball and making contested catches. That's what they said about N'Keal Harry. There was talk this morning on the radio that neither guy they drafted has much chance of being an NFL WR1, and maybe with seasoning they could at some point be a decent possession receiver like Jakobi Meyers. Again, no one knows what they will turn into, but that didn't exactly blow my dress up. The consensus was they will still be lacking (and looking for) a WR1. That's not my opinion, that's what was being discussed on the radio.
Similarly, they panel said that Wallace is a developmental OT that will need to learn a new position and really needs a year of seasoning before he might be ready for a real workload. They need a starting LT now. They drafted a project that they will need coaching, work on his technique, and to fill out in the gym. For guys celebrating that they took two lineman this year because they need help on the line, they drafted three linemen last year in the same range as the guys they took this year (not in the same rounds, but in terms of how many other linemen had come off the board already). Last year, the fact that they signed multiple free agents, traded for some other options, and drafted multiple linemen was considered malpractice . . . but this year the fact that they drafted two guys way earlier than they were projected to go is getting applauded. I can't speak for those folks that love what they did at WR and OL, but I would be interested to hear why last year's attempt to address those areas were bad decisions while suddenly this year's approach is better (when it appears the same people were involved in the evaluation and selection process).
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I'm guessing that directionally, you would have preferred something like 34+other pick(s) and 68+other pick(s) to get quality rather than quantity. I dont necessarily disagree, but that strategy pushes more chips in a two specific plays. Would you have taken Maye or traded back?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The Pats did things differently than I would have from the moment they let go of BB. I would have jettisoned everyone affiliated with BB, from the coaches to the front office. Start fresh with an entirely new regime. I would not have hired Mayo (which apparently was already set up last year). Part of me thinks they want to run things similar to BB just without Bill (which IMO would be a recipe for disaster). If they opted to move on and go in a different direction, just rip off the band aid and start all over again.
I have been suggesting they trade down from the #3 pick for months. For one, I am not sold on Maye (that's a different discussion), but mostly because they need so much help that more picks near the top of the draft is better IMO. I would have taken the 3 MIN #1 picks and maybe a third for the #3 pick. That way, they could better build out the roster for when they eventually draft a QB, have a guy on a rookie deal starting at the beginning of the deal, and that guy would have a much greater chance of success. In this strategy, they would continue to not win much without a legit QB, so they would be well positioned with a near the top of the draft selection the next two years.
But they didn't do that. Since they went with Maye, I would have pivoted to doing all I could to support a (hopefully) future franchise QB. So I would have traded for an established WR1 from another team and potentially tried to move up in this draft as well. IMO, they needed to get a better WR than they did and a better tackle than they did. IMO, they ended up with two maybe ok guys at WR and two maybe ok guys on the O-line. But that's the choice they made by taking Maye. It is what it is.
We mostly know the team they will be rolling out this year, and I am more concerned about the OL and WR than I was before. IMO, they have different bodies, but I don't think they are much better than they were last year. Bottom line, the entire off season of positional upgrades is Maye and a bunch of other guys. That's the problem I have . . . the bunch of other guys are either JAGs or have no experience. I suspect they will have another Top 5 pick next year, so potentially the good news is they won't be shopping for a QB again. However, I do have concerns that Mayo and Wolf won't stick around long, and when the team opts to move on from them, the next regime and administration may not want to have anything to do with Maye.
I'm not an owner or a GM, and we all can have different visions on how to build a franchise. We haven't seen any of the players play yet or any of the coaches coach yet. They are 0-0 right now, and hopefully when this plays out I will be wrong in some of my assessments.
nightmare
Footballguy
I think the QB is the Kraft's call so no trading it away. I do not have a problem with not landing any big Free Agents
as this is a year of "see what we got" and go from there. This could be just a resume builder for Wolf so you hope the
next guy has the same "vision". If Mayo moves on it's because they were .500 or close and he coached them up.
Right now we do not know what any continuity is as we haven't seen what the coach's philosophies are when we
are talking about year 2 and after. That's if there is a year 2 or 3 for this staff. So, what Anarchy just said.
as this is a year of "see what we got" and go from there. This could be just a resume builder for Wolf so you hope the
next guy has the same "vision". If Mayo moves on it's because they were .500 or close and he coached them up.
Right now we do not know what any continuity is as we haven't seen what the coach's philosophies are when we
are talking about year 2 and after. That's if there is a year 2 or 3 for this staff. So, what Anarchy just said.
RenegadeRoy
Footballguy
I think there are two lanes of thought:
1) Patriots try to make progress this year, improving over the bad 2023 season.
or
2) Full rebuild and all aspects are in development. Final standing of 2024 season doesn't really matter.
Personally, I think #2 is better suited to what the Patriots need to do now. Can they beat the Bills? The Phins? Probably not even with a stud #1 WR... so what's the point? I'm of the mind where if you are in the first 5ish picks and need a QB you take a QB. Doesn't work you gotta try again next year. If Maye hits, and/or the rookie WRs gel with him or look good regardless of QB, and/or the OL prospects develop, then the Pats can add more next year or are more enticing to free agents. There really isn't a sense of, or need for, urgency in my opinion.
I also believe that after the first three or so "ranked" players per a position the draft is a toss up. Every year there are countless busts and countless later round gems. There's just too many factors at play in the transition of a player from their college team to their pro team.
Maybe my expectations are just that low lol
1) Patriots try to make progress this year, improving over the bad 2023 season.
or
2) Full rebuild and all aspects are in development. Final standing of 2024 season doesn't really matter.
Personally, I think #2 is better suited to what the Patriots need to do now. Can they beat the Bills? The Phins? Probably not even with a stud #1 WR... so what's the point? I'm of the mind where if you are in the first 5ish picks and need a QB you take a QB. Doesn't work you gotta try again next year. If Maye hits, and/or the rookie WRs gel with him or look good regardless of QB, and/or the OL prospects develop, then the Pats can add more next year or are more enticing to free agents. There really isn't a sense of, or need for, urgency in my opinion.
I also believe that after the first three or so "ranked" players per a position the draft is a toss up. Every year there are countless busts and countless later round gems. There's just too many factors at play in the transition of a player from their college team to their pro team.
Maybe my expectations are just that low lol
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Why cut McDermott? Is there any hope this is towards signing a WR?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
For starters, they have a bunker full of money to sign whomever they want (roughly $55 million in cap space). Theoretically, they save $1.2 million in cap space, but they have to replace him with another player for close to the same amount (meaning they really aren't gaining much cap space out of cutting him).
Second, who else can they sign at WR? Here are some of the remaining WR I can think of: OBJ, Tyler Boyd, Michael Thomas, Mecole Hardman, Hunter Renfrow, MVS, D.J. Chark (and some other lesser names). If you mean is there hope that they will trade for a WR, the draft just came and went, so the window of potential trade partners has probably closed. It's still possible, but a team looking to move a player had more incentive to consummate a trade last week than this week.
Boston
Footballguy
I can’t see it having anything to do with another move…my guess it is simply moving on from a 31-year-old journeyman player who they don’t see as part of their future.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I plead ignorance, but how do next years projected top qbs in the draft compare to Maye?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I, too, plead ignorance, but draft prognosticators expect next year's QB crop to not be as strong as this one. However, we've seen guys that weren't on the radar before a season started end up as top picks after having great seasons. So hard to really know with certainty until we see guys perform during the upcoming season. And of course, there have been vaunted draft classes disappoint in the NFL, so lots of prayer circles out there hoping guys pan out.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Just tells me they didn’t really want to trade it and really liked Maye.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Or they were told they had to take a QB with that pick by ownership.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
I mean it wasn’t some huge sweetheart deal to begin with. The Vikings are a mid pack team so the 2025 1st isn’t likely to be super high. They reportedly wanted two mid round picks back from the Patriots and they had to trade two more mid round picks to move up to get JJ. All in all if you like the guy at 3, I’d of stayed put too.
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
I’m probably too much of an optimist but Baker was kind of a rare profile by RP. He ran an absurd amount of 9 routes and had workable success rates versus man coverage. I think he’s a totally different guy than anyone else in this wr group. Harmon comp is pre acl Gallup. The biggest issue is a lack of experience with varied routes
Polk is ‘awesome on in breaking routes’ and has ‘good build up speed.’ He won’t win early in routes but will be fine in intermediate areas. Excellent run blocking and ‘vice grip hands.’ Harmon comp is Woods. Excellent at winning outside of his frame. Waldman high end comp is Maclin
I think these two were targeted to be matched up with Maye who’s both aggressive as a passer and likes to work in middle of the field. And might need WRs to win at the catch point if his accuracy is iffy for a while.
Imagine both will have a lot of development but could be actual complimentary players. Not in the pejorative sense.
With Douglas and Henry, this has the potential to be a functional group.
OL will either be a miracle development this year or more likely a top 5 pick next year. This was never a one year rebuild.
Polk is ‘awesome on in breaking routes’ and has ‘good build up speed.’ He won’t win early in routes but will be fine in intermediate areas. Excellent run blocking and ‘vice grip hands.’ Harmon comp is Woods. Excellent at winning outside of his frame. Waldman high end comp is Maclin
I think these two were targeted to be matched up with Maye who’s both aggressive as a passer and likes to work in middle of the field. And might need WRs to win at the catch point if his accuracy is iffy for a while.
Imagine both will have a lot of development but could be actual complimentary players. Not in the pejorative sense.
With Douglas and Henry, this has the potential to be a functional group.
OL will either be a miracle development this year or more likely a top 5 pick next year. This was never a one year rebuild.
RenegadeRoy
Footballguy
Sounds like Puka. Maybe wishful thinking haha
Boston
Footballguy
Hoping you are right! My hope is that both Polk and Baker show they are legit WRs and along with Pop they have the makings of a quality young WR unit that can grow with Maye and next offseason whether it is thru FA (they will obviously have the $) or a 1st round pick they can obtain a #1 and now you are off and running with them and Maye...O line is all about development and finding out who is a legit starter, who is depth and who can't play...and whether we can trust this staff to develop them...Wallace and Robinson both started a lot of games at high-end schools and were not obvious picks...if they hit on them it will give us a lot of confidence in Wolf...like WR if they can get to the point that they're almost there with a good young unit they can finish it off next offseason either thru FA or the draft...because they took Maye they will be in a position to be very flexible in next year's draft whether that means using the high pick they will most likely have or trading down to a QB needy team...I'm really hoping that at this time next year we are all very optimistic a return to contention is close.
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Anarchy...you seem overly negative on all things pats. I know there is certainly good reason understanding recent history, but damn.
What did you want them to do? Draft a bunch of safeties, DLmen, LBs and ignore their most glaring weaknesses? They have to start filling these holes.
I agree with the strategy. Does that mean we'll win more games next year? Flip of the coin. Regardless, I'm ready for the long haul and rebuild. Seen it before as my favorite NE player of all time is Steve Grogan.
Zay Jones just released too...
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
We all know that Maye is all that matters in this draft. They could hit on every other pick but if Maye is a bust so was this draft and vice versa.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
This is true, but the tough part is evaluating if Maye is a bust or not. What makes him a bust or a keeper and when? If he sits most of the season and then plays the last month and goes 0-4 and looks overmatched? If after 20 starts and he is 4-16 with terrible passing numbers, lots of sacks, and a ton of picks? Maye has the same issues Mac had . . . not a lot of weapons, a not-so-great OL, and not a lot of guys with experience playing on offense. That's not the best situation for any QB to be in.
Not just in response to you, as a question to everyone, what is the developmental timeline and expectations for Maye and how would you assess whether he is the QB of the future, a bust, a JAG, or the guy they have to keep rolling out because they don't really have another option?
Not being positive or negative on Maye, but the chances of him hitting the ground running like Stroud are low (those situations rarely happen). If Maye has a rookie season like Bryce Young, Zach Wilson, Daniel Jones, or Sam Darnold is that enough time to decide whether he is "the guy" or not? Hopefully, he'll be more like Herbert than those guys.
RenegadeRoy
Footballguy
I'm of the opinion that rookie QBs require, at minimum, one and a half season in the same offense to truly see what they've got. Beyond that, there needs to be noticeable improvement at some point. If there is no improvement, move on. Personally, I think Mac will have success somewhere it was just a confluence of issues (OL, lack of weapons, non-consistent coaching, etc) and he never got to improve. I also believe the Pats made the right choice in moving on from Mac.
If Maye has a "down" season this year, and then next year there is zero improvement, or worse a backslide, then I think it's time to move on.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Here's the conundrum (which seems pretty clear to the casual fan): what does Maye really have to work with, and how well can he perform with the assets he has?
Josh Allen took off when the Bills added Stefon Diggs.
Patrick Mahomes had Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce (and Kareem Hunt for good measure).
C.J. Stroud had a great rookie season with Nico Collins and Tank Dell.
Tua Tagovailoa took off when the Dolphins gave him Tyreek Hill and Jaylen Waddle.
Joe Burrow exploded with Ja'Marr Chase, Tee Higgins, and Tyler Boyd.
Justin Herbert has put up great numbers with Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler (will have to see how he performs without them).
Jalen Hurts and the Eagles turned things around with A.J. Brown and DeVonta Smith.
Those are 7 examples of guys that have mostly made it as starting QBs . . . and the common denominator is their teams gave them top guys to throw to. As of now, the Patriots haven't really done that for Maye (we know they didn't do that with Jones). Maybe things will change, but they didn't invest a high draft pick on WR lately (unless you count Harry or Thornton), they haven't traded for an impact receiver, and they haven't signed anyone noteworthy despite having a ton of cap room (unless we consider Osborn as a guy that will become a legit threat).
IMO, the Pats need to surround Maye (or needed to surround Jones) with real weapons. It appears they were on the Maye train all along, so I would have preferred they traded for a legit #1 (or at least a more established WR who would be a #1 in NE) and then also made a swing to get back into the first round and draft a WR a lot closer to the top of the draft.
Maybe Polk turns into something, but reading up on him, most places saw him as a very late second round / top of the 3rd round pick and an NFL WR2 or WR3. He's said to be a possession receiver that doesn't have much speed or gets much separation but will fight to make catches. That describes almost all the receivers NE has rostered in recent years. I saw comparisons to Jakobi Meyers. Nothing against Meyers, but IMO, NE needs a high motor guy that is explosive and can be an NFL WR1 to the tune of 100/1500/10 . . . not 65/700/4.
On the surface, NE doesn't have the level of receiving talent that the guys I just listed did. On paper, it seems like they have a WR room with a lot of NFL WR3's. Maybe they will get wide receiver upgrades down the road, but without better receivers, I suspect with all the other issues NE has, that will potentially lead to Maye struggling. Hopefully, the receivers they have either take another step or develop into something. That remains to be seen.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
I hope we really don’t have to evaluate Maye at all this season. I don’t want to see him play. If they want to get him some experience in the last game or two, fine but I hope they dont put him in games where they are relying on him. I’d like to see another offseason to build the line and get that #1 WR before he’s thrown into real game action. He’s super young and I’d love to see them work on his game off the field for a year.
RenegadeRoy
Footballguy
I don't disagree that the Pats need more weapons, but I think we're looking at this in a chicken and egg scenario. I see it as "get the QB (chicken)" first. You see it as "get the weapons (eggs)" first. Given how anemic the Pats were on offense they kind of had to do both this season with rookies. Do the QBs make the receivers or do the receivers make the QB? It's probably 50/50 for most QBs/WRs.
To comment on the above: Josh Allen was decent without Diggs, just not super star level. Mahomes is a generational talent who has since done it without Hill. You can't honestly tell me Tank Dell (a third round pick) and Nico Collins (another third rounder) would move the needle any more than the WRs the Pats currently have if they didn't have Stroud. Tua was looking great with just Waddle (granted a high first round pick). Etc etc etc. Chicken and egg. Yes, good weapons help QBs and I hope, but we also don't know how their current arsenal is going to develop. The Pats do not need to win this year, it's not the early 2000s anymore.
RenegadeRoy
Footballguy
Hard disagree. Sitting and observing as opposed to playing and learning doesn't seem to have any noticeable impact on rookies IMO. I agree, maybe pump the brakes on tossing him out there for a couple weeks but he needs to play this year.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I was curious as to where 1,000-yard receivers come from (sort of a birds and the bees of football). Just pulled this out quickly without a lot of thought, so obviously not an in-depth analysis. Over the past 5 seasons . . .
- There were 112 total 1,000-yard receiving seasons by WRs.
- There were 53 different players that had at least one 1,000-yard season.
- Of those 53 players, 19 were 1st round picks, 15 were 2nd, 10 were 3rd, 1 was a 4th, 5 were 5th, 1 was a 7th, and 2 were by UDFAs.
- Of those 112 total seasons, 47 were by 1st round picks, 26 by 2nd, 22 by 3rd, 2 by 4th, 12 by 5th, 1 by 7th, and 2 by UDFAs.
- Approximately two-thirds of those seasons came from 1st or 2nd round picks.
I am sure there is a lot more to sift through, but at a certain point where a guy was drafted doesn't really matter and it's his production that counts. Would also have to see how some of these guys matched up with QBs. I doubt that will add any perspective to whether QBs make the WRs or vice versa, though.
- There were 112 total 1,000-yard receiving seasons by WRs.
- There were 53 different players that had at least one 1,000-yard season.
- Of those 53 players, 19 were 1st round picks, 15 were 2nd, 10 were 3rd, 1 was a 4th, 5 were 5th, 1 was a 7th, and 2 were by UDFAs.
- Of those 112 total seasons, 47 were by 1st round picks, 26 by 2nd, 22 by 3rd, 2 by 4th, 12 by 5th, 1 by 7th, and 2 by UDFAs.
- Approximately two-thirds of those seasons came from 1st or 2nd round picks.
I am sure there is a lot more to sift through, but at a certain point where a guy was drafted doesn't really matter and it's his production that counts. Would also have to see how some of these guys matched up with QBs. I doubt that will add any perspective to whether QBs make the WRs or vice versa, though.
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