What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Is an elite QB necessary for fantasy purposes? (1 Viewer)

Except in the new world, Elite QB score 30+ points and the average fantasy QB still scores 20 points. Top tier QB scoring is up . . . not the guys in the 10-15 range.
That was true for 2011, how do we know that will be the case for 2012? I'll propose that the lockout helped accentuate the differences between average and great, especially in terms of passing offenses. Beyond the great, IMO there were a couple cases of perfect storms where things broke just right for monster passing performances:Brees/Brady/Rodgers: I remember hearing about "unofficial" practices that they were running. When they hit camp, maybe they were already in sync, whereas league defenses really weren't. Additionally, it didn't hurt that these guys came from potent, veteran offenses that had plenty of stability.Newton: pretty amazing what he did as a rookie. Certainly, his FF value came from his running, specifically his rushing TD's. Was this level of production a fluke, or legit, sustainable value? Regardless, part of his success stemmed from the fact that defenses didn't have any tape on him and didn't really have a plan to deal with him.Stafford: A perfect storm of having no viable running game + the best WR in the league. The man is also a talented QB who was healthy for 16 games the first time in his career.in short: I expect Brees/Brady/Rodgers to revert to their career averages - still great, not out of this world. I expect Newton to have a bit of a sophomore slump (in terms of FF scoring - I think he will do well and Car makes the playoffs but Newton ends up around QB8-10. I'd expect the same from Stafford, unless they have no running game again.bottom line: don't overvalue the position, the elite scoring will come back to earth in 2012.
 
Except in the new world, Elite QB score 30+ points and the average fantasy QB still scores 20 points. Top tier QB scoring is up . . . not the guys in the 10-15 range.
That was true for 2011, how do we know that will be the case for 2012? I'll propose that the lockout helped accentuate the differences between average and great, especially in terms of passing offenses. Beyond the great, IMO there were a couple cases of perfect storms where things broke just right for monster passing performances:Brees/Brady/Rodgers: I remember hearing about "unofficial" practices that they were running. When they hit camp, maybe they were already in sync, whereas league defenses really weren't. Additionally, it didn't hurt that these guys came from potent, veteran offenses that had plenty of stability.Newton: pretty amazing what he did as a rookie. Certainly, his FF value came from his running, specifically his rushing TD's. Was this level of production a fluke, or legit, sustainable value? Regardless, part of his success stemmed from the fact that defenses didn't have any tape on him and didn't really have a plan to deal with him.Stafford: A perfect storm of having no viable running game + the best WR in the league. The man is also a talented QB who was healthy for 16 games the first time in his career.in short: I expect Brees/Brady/Rodgers to revert to their career averages - still great, not out of this world. I expect Newton to have a bit of a sophomore slump (in terms of FF scoring - I think he will do well and Car makes the playoffs but Newton ends up around QB8-10. I'd expect the same from Stafford, unless they have no running game again.bottom line: don't overvalue the position, the elite scoring will come back to earth in 2012.
It makes no sense to include seasons from 10 years ago, as the game is so vastly different.If we look at the past 3 seasons, Rodgers has averaged 26.1 ppg and Brees and Brady have averaged 24.7. For Brady, that includes his first year back from reconstructive knee surgery, so I would suggest his totals should be higher. The other guys that have played all 3 seasons chime in at 20 ppg . . . or less.That scoring difference is essentially playing each week with an added flex player. What other position (RB / WR / TE) has a built in scoring advantage to the tune of 6 ppg?
 
Nothing is necessary, but I've given my opinion in numerous threads that teams with Rodgers, Brady, or Brees are going to be the most likely teams to be succesfull this year. I still will find it hard to take them over the top 3 RB's, but I think most are really wondering about comparing QB's 1-3 to RB's and WR's after that group. There is a reason you will see RB's 4-20 ranked 500 different ways this August and everybody agreeing on who the top 3 QB's are. If ever there was a time to use tiers, it's this year. Every single redraft (snake) team can expect to be way off the pace at RB1 of the top 3 backs OR way off the pace at QB of the top 3 QB's. Don't intentionally choose to be in BOTH camps.
Yet by simple math, half the teams in a 12-team league will be in BOTH camps.Teams drafting in the 9-12 range will almost certainly be without top 3 RBs, top 3 QBs, and Calvin Johnson. The most logical counterpunch is to get Gronk or Graham with one of the first two picks, hoping to gain their own positional advantage against the 6 top QB/RB teams.I'm in slot 11 of 12, and I know I'm at a disadvantage as we look at things here in late August. But the draft is only the first step in assembling a championship contending roster. I'll have to win a different way than those teams that get Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rice, McCoy and Foster. Not a big deal. All six aren't guaranteed to be top 3 at their position anyway. I'd rather have them, of course. But I'll simply have to take a different approach. I've been upside-down drafting for at least a decade, in part due to my main league's somewhat unique scoring system but also because I've always hunted value, even in early picks, and because I fully commit to the idea that the draft is only part of the process. We've all seen annually how low picks and free agents surface each season, so why not recognize that and accept that one or two positions may be weak in September, but can be addressed throughout the season. Yes, there is a chance that you won't find a reasonable free agent replacement or that you get them too late, but zigging where other teams zag gives you the best chance to ultimately, after finding that free agent, have a dominant team, not just one that is middling competitive. From 2007-2011 I've committed to letting a position slide a little rather than taking the best available at that position, and been early in on free agents to address that hole. 2009 was a complete bust, but the other four years I've been first or second in total points and 2-1 in championship games. People will say that getting "lucky" and "hitting" in free agency works with any strategy. I'll agree to a point, but it's not as if this rarely happens. Every year we can point to undrafted or late-drafted players who finished top ten at their position. So why not recognize it.I know I'm veering off topic, but only a little in that someone like me, drafting at the end of the first round, has to either bite the bullet and accept being down at RB or QB to half the league and go ahead and draft a RB or QB early anyway (one who won't likely reach the status of earlier drafted QBs and RBs), or they can intentionally load up at WR and TE in the first four rounds, take the Eli type QB in the fifth, and throw a bunch of darts at RBs later. Sure, if the RBs miss, it's probably not a championship contender, but being weak across the board by conventional drafting isn't a recipe for success either.
 
I should add that I would love it if a RB falls to me in the 3rd or 4th round, and if so, it gives me more flexibility, as I can hunt for value at both RB and WR. But I've learned that forcing yourself to take a position based on a perceived need for balance usually ends up weakening your roster at both the position you are forcing and at the position you passed up on because of need. Obviously, at some point, you can wait too long, but more often than not, I've gotten better rosters by thinking a little outside the box instead of conventionally. Balance in FF isn't just overrated, it is effectively nonexistent. All that matters is your total points. Your opponent doesn't have a defense that can load up to stop the run or the pass.

 
Nothing is necessary, but I've given my opinion in numerous threads that teams with Rodgers, Brady, or Brees are going to be the most likely teams to be succesfull this year.

I still will find it hard to take them over the top 3 RB's, but I think most are really wondering about comparing QB's 1-3 to RB's and WR's after that group. There is a reason you will see RB's 4-20 ranked 500 different ways this August and everybody agreeing on who the top 3 QB's are. If ever there was a time to use tiers, it's this year. Every single redraft (snake) team can expect to be way off the pace at RB1 of the top 3 backs OR way off the pace at QB of the top 3 QB's. Don't intentionally choose to be in BOTH camps.
Yet by simple math, half the teams in a 12-team league will be in BOTH camps.Teams drafting in the 9-12 range will almost certainly be without top 3 RBs, top 3 QBs, and Calvin Johnson. The most logical counterpunch is to get Gronk or Graham with one of the first two picks, hoping to gain their own positional advantage against the 6 top QB/RB teams.

I'm in slot 11 of 12, and I know I'm at a disadvantage as we look at things here in late August. But the draft is only the first step in assembling a championship contending roster. I'll have to win a different way than those teams that get Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rice, McCoy and Foster. Not a big deal. All six aren't guaranteed to be top 3 at their position anyway. I'd rather have them, of course. But I'll simply have to take a different approach.
Ya, I was only talking about if you have the choice, you've got to avoid being one of those teams. If you have no choice, that's different. I actually fully support going TE in that case.I have certainly seen leagues where Brady or Brees is there at 11 though.

 
I see both sides to this argument. So my question is, where do the top QBs go in 2 QB leagues?
If the league is a keeper league, the guys are all gone. (such is the case in the 2 QB league im in) Only upside guys are available for drafting. They go early (in the first and second) with all the stud RBs.
 
I will post again.

Jamal Charles, Peterson, Forte, McFadden, CHris johnson and Medenhall all went in the first round of my big league last year. As did Andre Johnson.

Thats over half the first round that was not even starting the last half of the season in fantasy.

Why not take a low risk top QB and be done with it?

 
'pantherclub said:
I will post again.Jamal Charles, Peterson, Forte, McFadden, CHris johnson and Medenhall all went in the first round of my big league last year. As did Andre Johnson.Thats over half the first round that was not even starting the last half of the season in fantasy.Why not take a low risk top QB and be done with it?
This is what I am saying.
 
'pantherclub said:
I will post again.Jamal Charles, Peterson, Forte, McFadden, CHris johnson and Medenhall all went in the first round of my big league last year. As did Andre Johnson.Thats over half the first round that was not even starting the last half of the season in fantasy.Why not take a low risk top QB and be done with it?
This is what I am saying.
Last year was not an abnormally. It happens every single year. Go back and look at past drafts or old fantasy mags. It took me a while to figure out but once you break the old habit of drafting a RB in the first or even second then your strategy flips to your favor over the rest of the league.
 
'pantherclub said:
I will post again.Jamal Charles, Peterson, Forte, McFadden, CHris johnson and Medenhall all went in the first round of my big league last year. As did Andre Johnson.Thats over half the first round that was not even starting the last half of the season in fantasy.Why not take a low risk top QB and be done with it?
I was thinking this in 2008 and drafted Tom Brady.
 
'pantherclub said:
I will post again.Jamal Charles, Peterson, Forte, McFadden, CHris johnson and Medenhall all went in the first round of my big league last year. As did Andre Johnson.Thats over half the first round that was not even starting the last half of the season in fantasy.Why not take a low risk top QB and be done with it?
I was thinking this in 2008 and drafted Tom Brady.
I will take my chances. Plus at least it happened in the first game where you could somewhat recover.
 
I think the issue here is that the "wait on QB" argument is saying that you can still get fantasy startable QBs in the mid to late rounds (mind you, we may not know who they are but they are "out there."). To start the season, it is very unlikely there will be immediate fantasy contributors that could end up at a top tier level at RB and WR. For RBs, they may need an injury to get more playing time. For WR, they may have to develop a rapport or wait for their chance.

IMO, that's why people are often opting to wait on QB . . . you know which QBs are going to be Day 1 starters. We may not know that about RB and WR picked later in the draft, which seemingly is who the "wait on QB" people somehow feel will be the only options available if you take a QB early.

 
'cheese said:
Nothing is necessary, but I've given my opinion in numerous threads that teams with Rodgers, Brady, or Brees are going to be the most likely teams to be succesfull this year. I still will find it hard to take them over the top 3 RB's, but I think most are really wondering about comparing QB's 1-3 to RB's and WR's after that group. There is a reason you will see RB's 4-20 ranked 500 different ways this August and everybody agreeing on who the top 3 QB's are. If ever there was a time to use tiers, it's this year. Every single redraft (snake) team can expect to be way off the pace at RB1 of the top 3 backs OR way off the pace at QB of the top 3 QB's. Don't intentionally choose to be in BOTH camps.
Exactly to me its all about consistency If you draft a Brady you now pretty much every week you are gonna get 20-25 pts rbs and wr's are very up and not to mention the turnover especially at the RB position its pretty much a given that about half of the top 10 rb's will be different than they were last yr where as at QB the top QB's pretty much stay at the top. A good RB gets what 6 100 yd games a sesaon how many 300 yd games do you expect from Brady with no running game??
 
'pantherclub said:
I will post again.Jamal Charles, Peterson, Forte, McFadden, CHris johnson and Medenhall all went in the first round of my big league last year. As did Andre Johnson.Thats over half the first round that was not even starting the last half of the season in fantasy.Why not take a low risk top QB and be done with it?
Because QB isnt as important as RB or WR as a position. At its most basic level it just isnt. Of course rostering a stud QB will be a point booster for your team. But one position does not make or break your team, averaging a few points more at QB is not the same as averaging a few points more at RB or WR, or both. Its not a simple equation that involves taking points from one position and adding it to another, its looking at your entire league at the position and seeing how you compare with them.Rotating a few QBs that can put up 80-100% of an elite QBs numbers is far from "safe" but it is a lot safer IMO than making sure your team will be consistently under producing at every position other than QB.Many people make a similar argument for TEs, but my opinion differs there as I believe top tier TEs have a much higher disparity than top tier QBs. When you can start the QB9 and get 70% of an elite QBs production every week its one thing. But its an entirely different thing to rotate a few QBs and get 80-100% of an elite QBs production. You cant do that with TEs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
'Squintz82 said:
'Da Man said:
6 teams make the playoffs in our leaugue..Last year QBs were Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Stafford, Newton and Ryan,4 points passing TDs, 7 points all other TDS....hmm
Without stating the rest of the teams, it's meaningless. My 6pt TD league last year, Rodgers, Brees, and Stafford owners all missed the playoffs. Championship was between Eli and Ryan owners (both waited on a qb in the draft)
Without stating the rest of the teams, its meaningless.....
 
'pantherclub said:
I will post again.Jamal Charles, Peterson, Forte, McFadden, CHris johnson and Medenhall all went in the first round of my big league last year. As did Andre Johnson.Thats over half the first round that was not even starting the last half of the season in fantasy.Why not take a low risk top QB and be done with it?
To answer your question directly this time, as it was answered indirectly by myself and few others:Because QB isnt as important as RB or WR as a position. At its most basic level it just isnt. Of course rostering a stud QB will be a point booster for your team. But one position does not make or break your team, averaging a few points more at QB is not the same as averaging a few points more at RB or WR, or both. Its not a simple equation that involves taking points from one position and adding it to another, its looking at your entire league at the position and seeing how you compare with them.Rotating a few QBs that can put up 80-100% of an elite QBs numbers is far from "safe" but it is a lot safer IMO than making sure your team will be consistently under producing at every position other than QB.Many people make a similar argument for TEs, but my opinion differs there as I believe top tier TEs have a much higher disparity than top tier QBs. When you can start the QB9 and get 70% of an elite QBs production every week its one thing. But its an entirely different thing to rotate a few QBs and get 80-100% of an elite QBs production. You cant do that with TEs.
A very good answer. QB is the easiest position to run a committee approach and get good returns. The other side of why you draft an RB in the first round: while some will get hurt or stink, around half of them will indeed pay out, and generally pretty big. A 40-50% chance at a superstar RB is a much better chance than you get with 3rd, 4th, 5th, and so on backs, and it is often a gamble worth taking. While elite QBs are pretty consistent, a lot of 2nd tier guys are pretty consistent, too, so there's not a ton of risk in waiting and grabbing Rivers, Eli, Roethlisberger, and so on, either. You just have different expectations.
 
'pantherclub said:
I will post again.Jamal Charles, Peterson, Forte, McFadden, CHris johnson and Medenhall all went in the first round of my big league last year. As did Andre Johnson.Thats over half the first round that was not even starting the last half of the season in fantasy.Why not take a low risk top QB and be done with it?
Because QB isnt as important as RB or WR as a position. At its most basic level it just isnt. Of course rostering a stud QB will be a point booster for your team. But one position does not make or break your team, averaging a few points more at QB is not the same as averaging a few points more at RB or WR, or both. Its not a simple equation that involves taking points from one position and adding it to another, its looking at your entire league at the position and seeing how you compare with them.Rotating a few QBs that can put up 80-100% of an elite QBs numbers is far from "safe" but it is a lot safer IMO than making sure your team will be consistently under producing at every position other than QB.Many people make a similar argument for TEs, but my opinion differs there as I believe top tier TEs have a much higher disparity than top tier QBs. When you can start the QB9 and get 70% of an elite QBs production every week its one thing. But its an entirely different thing to rotate a few QBs and get 80-100% of an elite QBs production. You cant do that with TEs.
My point above is if year in and year out over 50% of the first round isnt even playing on fantasy teams at the end then why wouldnt you select one of the top 3 quarterbacks in the league? There is less turnover and seemingly less injury risk. You could argue especially after last year that the top QB's are not merely "a few points" more than the RB or WR. Also look at the top points from the upper tier to middle tier. Its significant. Now look at the final top 10 in points for running backs. Thats a lot of points being left on the table.
 
For those that still roll with a QBBC, who do you think represents the best duo? Assume mo Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Stafford, Newton, Vick, Ryan, Rivers, Romo, Eli, Peyton.

 
'pantherclub said:
I will post again.Jamal Charles, Peterson, Forte, McFadden, CHris johnson and Medenhall all went in the first round of my big league last year. As did Andre Johnson.Thats over half the first round that was not even starting the last half of the season in fantasy.Why not take a low risk top QB and be done with it?
To answer your question directly this time, as it was answered indirectly by myself and few others:Because QB isnt as important as RB or WR as a position. At its most basic level it just isnt. Of course rostering a stud QB will be a point booster for your team. But one position does not make or break your team, averaging a few points more at QB is not the same as averaging a few points more at RB or WR, or both. Its not a simple equation that involves taking points from one position and adding it to another, its looking at your entire league at the position and seeing how you compare with them.Rotating a few QBs that can put up 80-100% of an elite QBs numbers is far from "safe" but it is a lot safer IMO than making sure your team will be consistently under producing at every position other than QB.Many people make a similar argument for TEs, but my opinion differs there as I believe top tier TEs have a much higher disparity than top tier QBs. When you can start the QB9 and get 70% of an elite QBs production every week its one thing. But its an entirely different thing to rotate a few QBs and get 80-100% of an elite QBs production. You cant do that with TEs.
A very good answer. QB is the easiest position to run a committee approach and get good returns. The other side of why you draft an RB in the first round: while some will get hurt or stink, around half of them will indeed pay out, and generally pretty big. A 40-50% chance at a superstar RB is a much better chance than you get with 3rd, 4th, 5th, and so on backs, and it is often a gamble worth taking. While elite QBs are pretty consistent, a lot of 2nd tier guys are pretty consistent, too, so there's not a ton of risk in waiting and grabbing Rivers, Eli, Roethlisberger, and so on, either. You just have different expectations.
only 3 running backs in my first round last year were top 10. McCoy, Rice and Foster.Again look at the 2nd tier level QB points vs the top tier. Its a huge difference
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It's not like guys like Ryan and Big Ben are wildly inconsistent. They are just consistently lower production than the elites. The same way Reggie bush will rarely beat out rice or McCoy.

The answer to this is simple IMO. It's a luxury not a necessity. After the top 3 backs and QBs you're not getting a large statistical advantage anyways, so past 7th or 8th its a non factor anyways half the time. If you draft at the back end you are best off going RB/RB or RB/TE as well.

This is also another great reason to bonsai draft as well (third round reversed all other rounds the same so 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, 12-1, 1-12 etc) since those top 3 QB/RB/Calvin are such statistical anomalies.

 
For those that still roll with a QBBC, who do you think represents the best duo? Assume mo Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Stafford, Newton, Vick, Ryan, Rivers, Romo, Eli, Peyton.
I wouldn't assume none of those guys. Taking one of those last few guys plus a decent backup can get you far, and not cost you too much.
 
'pantherclub said:
I will post again.Jamal Charles, Peterson, Forte, McFadden, CHris johnson and Medenhall all went in the first round of my big league last year. As did Andre Johnson.Thats over half the first round that was not even starting the last half of the season in fantasy.Why not take a low risk top QB and be done with it?
To answer your question directly this time, as it was answered indirectly by myself and few others:Because QB isnt as important as RB or WR as a position. At its most basic level it just isnt. Of course rostering a stud QB will be a point booster for your team. But one position does not make or break your team, averaging a few points more at QB is not the same as averaging a few points more at RB or WR, or both. Its not a simple equation that involves taking points from one position and adding it to another, its looking at your entire league at the position and seeing how you compare with them.Rotating a few QBs that can put up 80-100% of an elite QBs numbers is far from "safe" but it is a lot safer IMO than making sure your team will be consistently under producing at every position other than QB.Many people make a similar argument for TEs, but my opinion differs there as I believe top tier TEs have a much higher disparity than top tier QBs. When you can start the QB9 and get 70% of an elite QBs production every week its one thing. But its an entirely different thing to rotate a few QBs and get 80-100% of an elite QBs production. You cant do that with TEs.
A very good answer. QB is the easiest position to run a committee approach and get good returns. The other side of why you draft an RB in the first round: while some will get hurt or stink, around half of them will indeed pay out, and generally pretty big. A 40-50% chance at a superstar RB is a much better chance than you get with 3rd, 4th, 5th, and so on backs, and it is often a gamble worth taking. While elite QBs are pretty consistent, a lot of 2nd tier guys are pretty consistent, too, so there's not a ton of risk in waiting and grabbing Rivers, Eli, Roethlisberger, and so on, either. You just have different expectations.
only 3 running backs in my first round last year were top 10. McCoy, Rice and Foster.Again look at the 2nd tier level QB points vs the top tier. Its a huge difference
Its not that black and white, stop over simplifying it.The average turnover of top 10 RBs is around 50% if im not mistaken, last year was a freak year for RBs, which is why this year the RB field is even more important because so many teams are moving away from the workhorse backs.You are correct in comparing Tom Brady to Ben Roethlisberger or whatever comparison you choose to make. But who drafts Ben Roethlisberger as their QB1 outside of a committee, you shouldnt be comparing Brady vs Roethlisberger, you should be comparing Brady vs Roethlisberger + Schaub + Ryan.Im not sure what the turnover in top 10 QBs is, but I wouldnt be surprised at all if it was close to 50% either, I've been fortunate enough to draft a QB that well outperforms his ADP every year the last 3 years. Its a lot easier than you think when you have 1.5x-2x as many QBs as everyone else.
For those that still roll with a QBBC, who do you think represents the best duo? Assume mo Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Stafford, Newton, Vick, Ryan, Rivers, Romo, Eli, Peyton.
For me it entirely depends on my QB1, im targetting both Mannings, Rivers, Cutler and Ryan, but I will wait so I can possibly end up with none of them but its pretty tough to miss all of them.To supplement im looking at Schaub, Freeman, Fitzpatrick, RG3 and Roethlisberger in that order.In a few drafts ive already done this year, ive been able to get two of the QBs I considered for QB1 later than the 7th round. I've even grabbed Cutler in the 11th.I also stray away from duos and prefer at least 3 QBs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
'pantherclub said:
I will post again.

Jamal Charles, Peterson, Forte, McFadden, CHris johnson and Medenhall all went in the first round of my big league last year. As did Andre Johnson.

Thats over half the first round that was not even starting the last half of the season in fantasy.

Why not take a low risk top QB and be done with it?
To answer your question directly this time, as it was answered indirectly by myself and few others:Because QB isnt as important as RB or WR as a position. At its most basic level it just isnt. Of course rostering a stud QB will be a point booster for your team. But one position does not make or break your team, averaging a few points more at QB is not the same as averaging a few points more at RB or WR, or both. Its not a simple equation that involves taking points from one position and adding it to another, its looking at your entire league at the position and seeing how you compare with them.

Rotating a few QBs that can put up 80-100% of an elite QBs numbers is far from "safe" but it is a lot safer IMO than making sure your team will be consistently under producing at every position other than QB.

Many people make a similar argument for TEs, but my opinion differs there as I believe top tier TEs have a much higher disparity than top tier QBs. When you can start the QB9 and get 70% of an elite QBs production every week its one thing. But its an entirely different thing to rotate a few QBs and get 80-100% of an elite QBs production. You cant do that with TEs.
A very good answer. QB is the easiest position to run a committee approach and get good returns. The other side of why you draft an RB in the first round: while some will get hurt or stink, around half of them will indeed pay out, and generally pretty big. A 40-50% chance at a superstar RB is a much better chance than you get with 3rd, 4th, 5th, and so on backs, and it is often a gamble worth taking. While elite QBs are pretty consistent, a lot of 2nd tier guys are pretty consistent, too, so there's not a ton of risk in waiting and grabbing Rivers, Eli, Roethlisberger, and so on, either. You just have different expectations.
only 3 running backs in my first round last year were top 10. McCoy, Rice and Foster.Again look at the 2nd tier level QB points vs the top tier. Its a huge difference
Its not that black and white, stop over simplifying it.The average turnover of top 10 RBs is around 50% if im not mistaken, last year was a freak year for RBs, which is why this year the RB field is even more important because so many teams are moving away from the workhorse backs.

You are correct in comparing Tom Brady to Ben Roethlisberger or whatever comparison you choose to make. But who drafts Ben Roethlisberger as their QB1 outside of a committee, you shouldnt be comparing Brady vs Roethlisberger, you should be comparing Brady vs Roethlisberger + Schaub + Ryan.

Im not sure what the turnover in top 10 QBs is, but I wouldnt be surprised at all if it was close to 50% either, I've been fortunate enough to draft a QB that well outperforms his ADP every year the last 3 years. Its a lot easier than you think when you have 1.5x-2x as many QBs as everyone else.

For those that still roll with a QBBC, who do you think represents the best duo? Assume mo Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Stafford, Newton, Vick, Ryan, Rivers, Romo, Eli, Peyton.
For me it entirely depends on my QB1, im targetting both Mannings, Rivers, Cutler and Ryan, but I will wait so I can possibly end up with none of them but its pretty tough to miss all of them.To supplement im looking at Schaub, Freeman, Fitzpatrick, RG3 and Roethlisberger in that order.

In a few drafts ive already done this year, ive been able to get two of the QBs I considered for QB1 later than the 7th round. I've even grabbed Cutler in the 11th.

I also stray away from duos and prefer at least 3 QBs.
Fair enough. I think you're right to compare the elite QB to the entire possible combo that replaces him. So let's also compare McFadden or CJ2K or whoever you take over an elite QB against 2 or 3 RBs from the middle rounds since you're also spending multiple picks to replace the possible RB1.
 
So you're looking at something like...

McFadden + Ben + Schaub + Ryan

vs.

Brady + RBush + Stewart + Hillis

 
Fair enough. I think you're right to compare the elite QB to the entire possible combo that replaces him. So let's also compare McFadden or CJ2K or whoever you take over an elite QB against 2 or 3 RBs from the middle rounds since you're also spending multiple picks to replace the possible RB1.
That would be the counterpoint, the RBBC approach is weaker this year imo that previous years but there are definitely some gems out there people could forge into a great team with an elite QB, but its gonna be fun guess who.QB is just a much more consistent position across the board.
 
So you're looking at something like...McFadden + Ben + Schaub + Ryanvs.Brady + RBush + Stewart + Hillis
IMO, there is a lot wrong in trying to make these comparisons. You can't start 3 QBs and you would need another RB to account for DMAC missing games. Similarly, you may not ever be able to play 3 RBs at once either. So adding up the total points is not going to work, as 3 QBs and a RB will certainly outscore 1 QB and 3 RBs in terms of total points.Bottom line, no matter who you take in the first and second rounds, you can't completely miss on all your other picks and expect to win. The same holds true if you wait on QBs. You need your other picks to pull through or you will not be competitive.I used the following example in other threads using last year's FBG staff league as an example for BOTH sides of this debate.I ended up drafting 4 Top 10 RBs and 4 Top 10 WRs in a 12 team league. No matter where I took my QBs I was set up for a good season. As things turned out, I ended up with every injured QB out there last year. IIRC, I think I ended up plugging and playing 8 or 9 QBs on my roster and ended up winning the league with Matt Moore at QB.Now, you can look at it a couple of ways. Yes, I won and did not get elite QB scoring and did not burn an early pick on a QB. You can use that as EXAMPLE A as to an example of winning without investing much in QBs and winning without elite scoring.However, had I taken a QB in the first 2 rounds last year, I would have had an even better team. In my case, I make the assumption that I still would have done my best to draft quality players at every point of the draft and would have still ended up with the same batch of RB and WR. Looking at it that way, I would have sacrified one of those RB or WR . . . which would not have mattered anyway as I couldn't play all those RB and WR in the first place. All in all, I would have ended up scoring over 200 more points on the season had I invested in one of the top QBs. You can use this as EXAMPLE B on how adding a top QB could make an impact in scoring.IMO, all comparisons trying to mix and match who could have been taken instead and starting to compare and contract scoring from multiple rounds is a futile exercise. It won't make for anything conclusive and will only raise the ire of both sides.
 
Fair enough. I think you're right to compare the elite QB to the entire possible combo that replaces him. So let's also compare McFadden or CJ2K or whoever you take over an elite QB against 2 or 3 RBs from the middle rounds since you're also spending multiple picks to replace the possible RB1.
That would be the counterpoint, the RBBC approach is weaker this year imo that previous years but there are definitely some gems out there people could forge into a great team with an elite QB, but its gonna be fun guess who.QB is just a much more consistent position across the board.
Another difference is that a QBBC tends to involve far fewer question marks than an RBBC approach. With an RBBC drafting approach--kind of the typical "upside down draft"--you're not really playing weekly matchups with your RBs so much as you're hoping one of them breaks out of a backup/committee role to be a true workhorse. You generally won't have many backs who truly begin the year as their team's #1. You can certainly play matchups with Mark Ingram, CJ Spiller, and Jonathan Stewart, but 10-15 touches a game doesn't thrill; what you really want is for one of those guys to force Pierre Thomas, Fred Jackson, or Deangelo Williams to the bench.Every QB in your QBBC is a starter, by the nature of the position--all it really takes is finding league-average talent and going after favorable matchups against bad passing defenses. And since your QBBC participants are all already NFL starters, they each have a much greater opportunity of turning into an every-week fantasy starter, too. There's a bit less downside than a fantasy RBBC, and it's easier to implement from week 1.
 
If I am going for a true QBBC, it means I am bypassing on Ryan as QB7, but I'm not going to chicken out and grab Rivers, Eli, Manning, Schaub, or Ben. Instead I'm looking for cheap rushing yards in 3 mobile QBs. In draft order, but no necessarily how I would start them: RG3, Freeman, Locker, Luck, Tebow. And I'm not drafting one until QB12.

 
If I am going for a true QBBC, it means I am bypassing on Ryan as QB7, but I'm not going to chicken out and grab Rivers, Eli, Manning, Schaub, or Ben. Instead I'm looking for cheap rushing yards in 3 mobile QBs. In draft order, but no necessarily how I would start them: RG3, Freeman, Locker, Luck, Tebow. And I'm not drafting one until QB12.
Bold, perhaps too bold.
 
'karmarooster said:
If I am going for a true QBBC, it means I am bypassing on Ryan as QB7, but I'm not going to chicken out and grab Rivers, Eli, Manning, Schaub, or Ben. Instead I'm looking for cheap rushing yards in 3 mobile QBs. In draft order, but no necessarily how I would start them: RG3, Freeman, Locker, Luck, Tebow. And I'm not drafting one until QB12.
Jesus man, good luck with that.
 
'karmarooster said:
If I am going for a true QBBC, it means I am bypassing on Ryan as QB7, but I'm not going to chicken out and grab Rivers, Eli, Manning, Schaub, or Ben. Instead I'm looking for cheap rushing yards in 3 mobile QBs. In draft order, but no necessarily how I would start them: RG3, Freeman, Locker, Luck, Tebow. And I'm not drafting one until QB12.
I'm down with this too, although RG3/Cutler has looked like a good scenario to me in that same ballpark. Problem is RG3 is gonna go higher than he should in a lot of leagues just on name recognition alone. Take RG3 out of that group, and I'm much less interested in this strategy. Part of the reason I'm probably just going stud QB is because there are very few guys in both the middle tier (Ryan, Romo, Vick, etc.) and your tier that I'm truly comfortable going to war with. I feel I'd HAVE to hit on Ryan or Eli, where I want them, to feel good at QB if I try the middle tier. And I feel I'd HAVE to get RG3 to go for a QBBC. Too many ifs, ands, or buts, when I can just take Rodgers 1.03 and be over and done with it, and pick up the value as the QB runs go crazy.
 
Is it necessary? No. Is it comforting? Hell yes.
This is how I feel, especially if I'm drafting 1.01-1.03, landing one of Foster/Rice/McCoy, and being able to roster one of Rodgers/Brady/Brees in the late 2nd, or Stafford/Newton in the early 3rd, depending on the Scoring System of the given League...there's some strategy to be thought about, too......a lot depends on your Division set-up, too, I think - if you can land one of the Big 3 RB's, or Calvin, (or in a TE Friendly League, Graham, maybe Gronk) and your System is QB-Friendly as well, AND you have a chance to pair that 1st Round choice up with one of the Big 3 QB's it puts you at a pretty big points advantage. If Division-Mates in such a League draft AFTER you in the 2nd, and have rostered one of the above Players, I'd feel almost COMPELLED to go Rodgers/Brady/Brees in the 2nd, especially if more than one of them was available, because all of those Owners are going to pick twice before you pick again, and have that advantage if you don't take it. Please note that my post involves a # of conditions, but I'm trying to articulate the strategy involved......the Real-Life example of this is the Local High-Stakes League I'm in: I had my choice of Draft Positions, and took 4th, because the Divisions are (and I admit this isn't ideal) 1,2,3,4 - 5,6,7,8 - 9,10,11,12. At 4, I get either one of the Big 3 RB or Calvin, and I'm almost certain the QB situation will dictate what I do at 2.09. QB scoring is very friendly in that League, and being in the Division with 1,2 & 3, I'm kind of the 'last line of defense' preventing any of them from gaining a solid advantage, while I get one for myself. I know that all 5 QB WON'T go by 2.09, and maybe one of the Big 3 QB MIGHT still be there. I also know a nice enough player will fall to me at 3.04 (28th overall) that I can do this without hurting myself. Not sure at all that any RB/WR/TE I select at 2.09 will drive one of those select QB back down to me @ 3.04, but also, if I take one of them, it's almost a certainty that the others will get drafted between 2.10 and 3.03, as those guys are, to a degree, compelled, to keep up with what I'm doing......I admit I'm not doing the greatest job articulating my point, but the point is, there certainly are compelling strategic advantages to landing one of the Big 3, and maybe even Stafford or Newton where you'd have to take them (with a late 2nd - mid 3rd), depending on Scoring System and Division Set-up.Any way you slice it, if you're in a situation where you land Foster/Rice/McCoy/Calvin/Jimmy and have a shot at Rodgers/Brady/Brees you have a chance at an early lead in your draft, that your League-mates might have issues closing the gap on. Worth the risk, imo...
 
In a 12 team league i would bet all top 5 qbs are gone within the first 15-16 picks.
No doubt they will be in my 12 team, 6 point passing TD league. I see people talking about drafting in the 3/4 slot, and getting Stafford or Newton in the 2nd round. Good luck with that. Rodgers goes in the top 3 in my league, Brady and Brees are certainly top 9, and by pick # 15, Stafford and Newton will be long gone. I pick out of the 4 slot, and if you end up with either Rice or McCoy in that slot, there is no way you will get an elite QB.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top