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It was a tremendous raid. (1 Viewer)

Rubiobot said:
Judge approves Trump's special master request. I just saw the headline so i don't know the details.
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Judge grants Trump’s request for "special master" to review materials seized from Mar-a-Lago​

A federal judge has granted former President Donald Trump’s request to appoint a “special master” to review materials that the FBI seized from Mar-a-Lago last month.
The ruling means a third-party attorney, from outside the government, will be brought in to review the materials that were taken from Trump’s home and resort in Florida. The decision, from Trump-appointed District Judge Aileen Cannon, is a victory for the former president.
Trump’s lawyers argued that a special master was needed because they don’t trust DOJ to fairly identify privileged materials that would need to be excluded from the ongoing criminal probe.
Federal prosecutors will have an opportunity to appeal this decision. The Justice Department strongly opposed a “special master” and has said that its own “filter team” already finished its review the Mar-a-Lago documents -- and found a small set of attorney-client privileged records.
 
Rubiobot said:
How can a 3rd party attorney look at classified documents without a security clearance?
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Not really challenging your post or you for an answer, but could anything classified be client-attorney anyway?

ETA: But I get that if am Trump and the classified items are "carved out" then I'd be screaming that the government is hiding these documents.
 
bigbottom said:
I haven’t read the order, but I generally agree with the ruling.
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BB, as just an average Joe and not a legal scholar, how does this really change anything? If he has some Attorney/ Client stuff fine, but classified docs or TS docs aren’t going to be that, so what does this change other then delaying the timeline?
 
dkp993 said:
bigbottom said:
I haven’t read the order, but I generally agree with the ruling.
Click to expand...
BB, as just an average Joe and not a legal scholar, how does this really change anything? If he has some Attorney/ Client stuff fine, but classified docs or TS docs aren’t going to be that, so what does this change other then delaying the timeline?
Click to expand...

I don’t think the the FBI should have unfettered access to materials that clearly fall within the attorney-client privilege and I don’t think I agree with them policing themselves on that front (whether because of actual or perceived bias). I think an independent special master makes sense and I hope he or she is appointed immediately and conducts the privilege review quickly.
 
bigbottom said:
dkp993 said:
bigbottom said:
I haven’t read the order, but I generally agree with the ruling.
Click to expand...
BB, as just an average Joe and not a legal scholar, how does this really change anything? If he has some Attorney/ Client stuff fine, but classified docs or TS docs aren’t going to be that, so what does this change other then delaying the timeline?
Click to expand...

I don’t think the the FBI should have unfettered access to materials that clearly fall within the attorney-client privilege and I don’t think I agree with them policing themselves on that front (whether because of actual or perceived bias). I think an independent special master makes sense and I hope he or she is appointed immediately and conducts the privilege review quickly.
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I agree with all of this. But I guess my question wasn’t clear. How does this effect the case against Trump? I don’t see how it does. And I really don’t understand Trumps endgame here (unless its what you describe, which it certainly could be, I just feel like there’s anther angle he’s working).
 
bigbottom said:
dkp993 said:
bigbottom said:
I haven’t read the order, but I generally agree with the ruling.
Click to expand...
BB, as just an average Joe and not a legal scholar, how does this really change anything? If he has some Attorney/ Client stuff fine, but classified docs or TS docs aren’t going to be that, so what does this change other then delaying the timeline?
Click to expand...

I don’t think the the FBI should have unfettered access to materials that clearly fall within the attorney-client privilege and I don’t think I agree with them policing themselves on that front (whether because of actual or perceived bias). I think an independent special master makes sense and I hope he or she is appointed immediately and conducts the privilege review quickly.
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What kinds of documents would Trump have in his possession that fall under attorney/client privilege? I imagine correspondence with his lawyers, but what else?
 
bigbottom said:
dkp993 said:
bigbottom said:
I haven’t read the order, but I generally agree with the ruling.
Click to expand...
BB, as just an average Joe and not a legal scholar, how does this really change anything? If he has some Attorney/ Client stuff fine, but classified docs or TS docs aren’t going to be that, so what does this change other then delaying the timeline?
Click to expand...

I don’t think the the FBI should have unfettered access to materials that clearly fall within the attorney-client privilege and I don’t think I agree with them policing themselves on that front (whether because of actual or perceived bias). I think an independent special master makes sense and I hope he or she is appointed immediately and conducts the privilege review quickly.
Click to expand...

I have not read the order (so I am obviously ignorant of the details) but from twitter, I found two things interesting:

1) Did the judge also talk about executive privilege and whether the special master needs to look for that? If so, that seems troubling. I don't know how that would apply.

2) From two commentators - "This judge basically did Trump’s lawyers’ work for them, making arguments under the 4-part Richey test which Trump did not brief or argue, making executive privilege arguments that Trump did not press fully in the hearing, and granting an injunction when one wasn’t requested..."

"This is also a fair observation: that the judge turned the absolute incoherent garbage of the Trump papers into a narrative that, even if you disagree with it, uses the appropriate test and asks necessary questions."

That's pretty rare that a judge would be so generous to a movant. But I guess this is a rare case.
 
dkp993 said:
How does this effect the case against Trump?
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It doesn't. There isn't (yet?) a case against Trump, but if there ever is, any material that is subject to the attorney-client privilege will be ruled inadmissible by a judge. A special master doesn't matter, which is why it seems pointless to appoint one.

I guess, in theory, there could be a document in which Trump tells his lawyers where the bodies are buried, and while that would be inadmissible in a case against Trump, if law enforcement sees it, they can dig up the bodies and (falsely) say they got a tip from an informant. So a special master could prevent law enforcement from seeing it ... except in this case, law enforcement has already seen whatever the filter team let through, so the special master still seems pointless.
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
dkp993 said:
How does this effect the case against Trump?
Click to expand...
It doesn't. There isn't (yet?) a case against Trump, but if there ever is, any material that is subject to the attorney-client privilege will be ruled inadmissible by a judge. A special master doesn't matter, which is why it seems pointless to appoint one.

I guess, in theory, there could be a document in which Trump tells his lawyers where the bodies are buried, and while that would be inadmissible in a case against Trump, if law enforcement sees it, they can dig up the bodies and (falsely) say they got a tip from an informant. So a special master could prevent law enforcement from seeing it ... except in this case, law enforcement has already seen whatever the filter team let through, so the special master still seems pointless.
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Isn't there a rule about crime/fraud that invalidates attorney-client privileges?
 
The Z Machine said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
dkp993 said:
How does this effect the case against Trump?
Click to expand...
It doesn't. There isn't (yet?) a case against Trump, but if there ever is, any material that is subject to the attorney-client privilege will be ruled inadmissible by a judge. A special master doesn't matter, which is why it seems pointless to appoint one.

I guess, in theory, there could be a document in which Trump tells his lawyers where the bodies are buried, and while that would be inadmissible in a case against Trump, if law enforcement sees it, they can dig up the bodies and (falsely) say they got a tip from an informant. So a special master could prevent law enforcement from seeing it ... except in this case, law enforcement has already seen whatever the filter team let through, so the special master still seems pointless.
Click to expand...
Isn't there a rule about crime/fraud that invalidates attorney-client privileges?
Click to expand...
Yes, but that wouldn't apply to buried bodies. The crime-fraud exception comes into play when the lawyer is helping the client plan future crimes, not when the lawyer is helping the client avoid punishment for past crimes.
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Yes, but that wouldn't apply to buried bodies. The crime-fraud exception comes into play when the lawyer is helping the client plan future crimes, not when the lawyer is helping the client avoid punishment for past crimes.
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What if that lawyer was complicit in the criminal acts themselves? Like helping to transport, store, or otherwise mishandle classified docs?
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I don't always agree with Neal Katyal, but these seem like good points:

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Yeah I have to admit I have no idea how this judge thought this through. This court had no jurisdiction and Trump had no standing.

Meanwhile, by definition the appointment of the SM means that there are classified documents there. Which should mean that the defendant should be arrested before the morning. But this guy has mutated everything he has touched.
 
I think the opinion is pretty bad, but I don't really see the harm in appointing a special master. In theory, it shouldn't change any potential outcome. Where do they get a special master with top secret clearance?
 
Does a special master have to be a lawyer? Plenty of people with TS clearances, but if they also have to be a lawyer there won't be a ton of options.
 
the rover said:
I think the opinion is pretty bad, but I don't really see the harm in appointing a special master.
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My sense is that it's bad on legal grounds, but harmless as a practical matter unless the special master does something stupid (like determining that executive privilege allows docs to be withheld from the executive branch against the wishes of the current president).

It would be harmful to take it seriously as precedent (because its reasoning seems to require a special master in all white-collar criminal cases), but it won't be taken seriously as precedent. It's just a district court opinion that won't be followed by the issuing judge herself in cases that don't involve Trump, much less by other judges.
 
(HULK) said:
Does a special master have to be a lawyer? Plenty of people with TS clearances, but if they also have to be a lawyer there won't be a ton of options.
Click to expand...
I don't see how the special master couldn't be a lawyer. It's review of documents for executive privilege and the status of classified/TS documents. I don't see how a non-lawyer could make those calls. Most special masters are retired judges.

I guess there would be a few people from the US Attorney's office or JAGs that would have the necessary clearances.
 
the rover said:
Lol. You know who is a lawyer with a top secret security clearance? Barack Obama.
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Obama would make sense. Trump and friend Vince McMahon are on Fox News yelling the insanities Trump has been spewing then Obama suddenly appears on camera wearing a Captain America costume. Trump hits Obama over the head with a folding chair but it doesn't even phase him.
 
bigbottom said:
I haven’t read the order, but I generally agree with the ruling.
Click to expand...
I agree that a SM makes here, but I read an article stating that the government is enjoined from continuing its investigation into the documents until the SM does his/her review. Assuming the article is accurate, I found that part of the order to be a bit overreaching.
 
the rover said:
(HULK) said:
Does a special master have to be a lawyer? Plenty of people with TS clearances, but if they also have to be a lawyer there won't be a ton of options.
Click to expand...
I don't see how the special master couldn't be a lawyer. It's review of documents for executive privilege and the status of classified/TS documents. I don't see how a non-lawyer could make those calls. Most special masters are retired judges.

I guess there would be a few people from the US Attorney's office or JAGs that would have the necessary clearances.
Click to expand...
Yeah I can't see any way the SM isn't a lawyer.
 
whoknew said:
bigbottom said:
dkp993 said:
bigbottom said:
I haven’t read the order, but I generally agree with the ruling.
Click to expand...
BB, as just an average Joe and not a legal scholar, how does this really change anything? If he has some Attorney/ Client stuff fine, but classified docs or TS docs aren’t going to be that, so what does this change other then delaying the timeline?
Click to expand...

I don’t think the the FBI should have unfettered access to materials that clearly fall within the attorney-client privilege and I don’t think I agree with them policing themselves on that front (whether because of actual or perceived bias). I think an independent special master makes sense and I hope he or she is appointed immediately and conducts the privilege review quickly.
Click to expand...

I have not read the order (so I am obviously ignorant of the details) but from twitter, I found two things interesting:

1) Did the judge also talk about executive privilege and whether the special master needs to look for that? If so, that seems troubling. I don't know how that would apply.

2) From two commentators - "This judge basically did Trump’s lawyers’ work for them, making arguments under the 4-part Richey test which Trump did not brief or argue, making executive privilege arguments that Trump did not press fully in the hearing, and granting an injunction when one wasn’t requested..."

"This is also a fair observation: that the judge turned the absolute incoherent garbage of the Trump papers into a narrative that, even if you disagree with it, uses the appropriate test and asks necessary questions."

That's pretty rare that a judge would be so generous to a movant. But I guess this is a rare case.
Click to expand...
This is definitely a rare situation and a rare procedure.

But, in my experience at least, on a much smaller scale the bold does regularly happen. For example, a judge will instruct a brand new prosecutor to reopen her case if, for example, she forgot to establish jurisdiction (and the judge will say that the "ends of justice" would not be otherwise met). I've also seen judges in evidentiary issues find a way for a reason not raised/argued by the lawyers.

I think this is likely more commonplace in criminal matters versus civil.
 
Zow said:
bigbottom said:
I haven’t read the order, but I generally agree with the ruling.
Click to expand...
I agree that a SM makes here, but I read an article stating that the government is enjoined from continuing its investigation into the documents until the SM does his/her review. Assuming the article is accurate, I found that part of the order to be a bit overreaching.
Click to expand...
They were told to stop processing documents only correct? The rest can continue?
 
The Commish said:
Zow said:
bigbottom said:
I haven’t read the order, but I generally agree with the ruling.
Click to expand...
I agree that a SM makes here, but I read an article stating that the government is enjoined from continuing its investigation into the documents until the SM does his/her review. Assuming the article is accurate, I found that part of the order to be a bit overreaching.
Click to expand...
They were told to stop processing documents only correct? The rest can continue?
Click to expand...
I'm honestly not sure. I gotta read the order.
 
Zow said:
bigbottom said:
I haven’t read the order, but I generally agree with the ruling.
Click to expand...
I agree that a SM makes here, but I read an article stating that the government is enjoined from continuing its investigation into the documents until the SM does his/her review. Assuming the article is accurate, I found that part of the order to be a bit overreaching.
Click to expand...
I thought I had read somewhere that the rules governing WH docs already require them to keep government records separate from non-government stuff, so there shouldn't be any attorney/client privileged documents with the classified, TS, etc. stuff the FBI seized. I might have the wording mixed up on the relevant rules or regulations or whatever.

Anyway it crossed my mind that team Trump could have intentionally mixed in some attorney/client privileged stuff just in case this ever came up...so they could use it as a stall tactic (requesting special master, delay investigation, bolster their "witch hunt" claims, etc.)
 
Van Dyman said:
Zow said:
bigbottom said:
I haven’t read the order, but I generally agree with the ruling.
Click to expand...
I agree that a SM makes here, but I read an article stating that the government is enjoined from continuing its investigation into the documents until the SM does his/her review. Assuming the article is accurate, I found that part of the order to be a bit overreaching.
Click to expand...
I thought I had read somewhere that the rules governing WH docs already require them to keep government records separate from non-government stuff, so there shouldn't be any attorney/client privileged documents with the classified, TS, etc. stuff the FBI seized. I might have the wording mixed up on the relevant rules or regulations or whatever.

Anyway it crossed my mind that team Trump could have intentionally mixed in some attorney/client privileged stuff just in case this ever came up...so they could use it as a stall tactic (requesting special master, delay investigation, bolster their "witch hunt" claims, etc.)
Click to expand...
I'd defer to Hanlon and his razor on that one.
 
Van Dyman said:
I thought I had read somewhere that the rules governing WH docs already require them to keep government records separate from non-government stuff, so there shouldn't be any attorney/client privileged documents with the classified, TS, etc. stuff the FBI seized. I might have the wording mixed up on the relevant rules or regulations or whatever.

Anyway it crossed my mind that team Trump could have intentionally mixed in some attorney/client privileged stuff just in case this ever came up...so they could use it as a stall tactic (requesting special master, delay investigation, bolster their "witch hunt" claims, etc.)
Click to expand...
I thought I read the day of the raid Trump was observed doing this but can't find it. Maybe someone better at the internet can.
 
2Squirrels1Nut said:
Van Dyman said:
I thought I had read somewhere that the rules governing WH docs already require them to keep government records separate from non-government stuff, so there shouldn't be any attorney/client privileged documents with the classified, TS, etc. stuff the FBI seized. I might have the wording mixed up on the relevant rules or regulations or whatever.

Anyway it crossed my mind that team Trump could have intentionally mixed in some attorney/client privileged stuff just in case this ever came up...so they could use it as a stall tactic (requesting special master, delay investigation, bolster their "witch hunt" claims, etc.)
Click to expand...
I thought I read the day of the raid Trump was observed doing this but can't find it. Maybe someone better at the internet can.
Click to expand...
I don't know if this is true. I thought Trump was completely out of state when the "raid" happened.
 
The Commish said:
2Squirrels1Nut said:
Van Dyman said:
I thought I had read somewhere that the rules governing WH docs already require them to keep government records separate from non-government stuff, so there shouldn't be any attorney/client privileged documents with the classified, TS, etc. stuff the FBI seized. I might have the wording mixed up on the relevant rules or regulations or whatever.

Anyway it crossed my mind that team Trump could have intentionally mixed in some attorney/client privileged stuff just in case this ever came up...so they could use it as a stall tactic (requesting special master, delay investigation, bolster their "witch hunt" claims, etc.)
Click to expand...
I thought I read the day of the raid Trump was observed doing this but can't find it. Maybe someone better at the internet can.
Click to expand...
I don't know if this is true. I thought Trump was completely out of state when the "raid" happened.
Click to expand...
I didn't mean to imply that might have happened on the day of the raid. Months have passed since they left office. Heck, months have passed since the first (incomplete) set of boxes were turned over to DOJ. Still not sure how any of this works or if there's any indication it happened this way.
 
the rover said:
I think the opinion is pretty bad, but I don't really see the harm in appointing a special master. In theory, it shouldn't change any potential outcome. Where do they get a special master with top secret clearance?
Click to expand...
Pretty much where I'm at. I don't see the harm and it does actually insulate the DOJ down the line from further claims about the documents.
 
Huh. I agree with Bill Barr. Not sure that's ever happened before.

Former Attorney General William Barr on Tuesday disputed a federal judge's ruling to appoint a special master to review records the FBI seized last month from Mar-a-Lago, former President Donald Trump's Florida residence.

"The opinion, I think, was wrong, and I think the government should appeal it," Barr, who was attorney general under the Trump administration, told Fox News. "It's deeply flawed in a number of ways. I don't think the appointment of a special master is going to hold up, but even if it does, I don't see it fundamentally changing the trajectory."

"I think the fundamental dynamics of the case are set," Barr continued. "The government has very strong evidence of what it really needs to determine whether charges are appropriate."

Barr's comments come after US District Judge Aileen Cannon, a Trump appointee, on Monday granted Trump's request to appoint a special master to review the evidence the FBI seized from Mar-a-Lago on August 8. The decision temporarily halts the Department of Justice from reviewing the documents, delivering a win to Trump who has condemned the raid.
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