KC Interception return on 2 PAT-scoring issue... (1 Viewer)

[unckeyherb]

I'm commish for a 12 team keeper league on RT Sports.  Late in the game yesterday KC intercepted a 2 point conversion from Matt Ryan and returned it for a score.  RT scoring isn't showing it as an int nor any points scored, but probably should.  Looking through the rules definitions on the site I can't find any setting there that would make it possible to fix the issue.  Any commissioners out there have any thoughts on this?  

We've had this league going for almost 15 years and have never run into this issue before.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Bayhawks]

It doesn't count as an INT, officially.  That being said, KC's D/ST SHOULD get the 2 points, IMO.  My league (MFL) had to change the scoring to account for this this offseason, however (NO's 2 pt return from last season didn't get counted).  If you didn't change the settings to give those points to the D/ST, I would guess your site has the same problem.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I'm commish for a 12 team keeper league on RT Sports.  Late in the game yesterday KC intercepted a 2 point conversion from Matt Ryan and returned it for a score.  RT scoring isn't showing it as an int nor any points scored, but probably should.  Looking through the rules definitions on the site I can't find any setting there that would make it possible to fix the issue.  Any commissioners out there have any thoughts on this?  

We've had this league going for almost 15 years and have never run into this issue before.

Thanks in advance!

Since it's a new NFL rule - you likely needed to add it to your scoring rules (MFL didn't give it either) - most commissioners (myself included) probably didn't think of it.

Also, it's not considered an interception but you should get the two points - we will make the change next year in leagues that didn't this year. 

 

[shadyridr]

I had to change this last year in MFL

 

[Crazy8s]

Same thing happen in week 10. Den vs NO. How did you score that one. Or did you????

 

[BearsFan4Life]

Same thing happen in week 10. Den vs NO. How did you score that one. Or did you????

Our league did not count either, but it needs to change as QBs, RBs, WRs all get credit for a successful 2 pt coversion.

 

[Tool]

Would the D get points on a blocked punt return?  In our league it wouldn't so this would be the same - we consider that a special teams play.  But it's up to your league to decide on the rules.

 

[Ruffrodys05]

On MFL the setting is called "Defensive Conversion Return" and the commish has to select it as a scoring option for the D/ST position. 

 

[rjt]

 I'm in a RT sports league as well and the rules state that a special team is awarded two points for an extra point return. Although the KC def has yet to be awarded for those points. i'm guessing an adjustment will occur. 

 

[Jayrok]

I think it should be 2 pts for the defense/ST.  

I was wondering about the fake punt TD.  This obviously doesn't happen much, but how is that not a special teams TD?  The offense didn't score.  Defense and special teams are lumped together in scoring. Should the defense/ST gets the 6 pts for that TD?  

 

[simsarge]

From our league home page on RT:

ALERT from RealTime Fantasy Sports

Kansas City 2pt XP Return


Commissioners are able to add that scoring rule in the league by going under 'Step 6: Special Teams Rules' from 'Commissioner' > 'Manage League'. The rule is labeled "Extra Point Returns". Please note there have been two other similar scores this year that fall under that category. Adding this rule will retroactively add points for those other scores in weeks prior.

 

[Ruffrodys05]

I think it should be 2 pts for the defense/ST.  

I was wondering about the fake punt TD.  This obviously doesn't happen much, but how is that not a special teams TD?  The offense didn't score.  Defense and special teams are lumped together in scoring. Should the defense/ST gets the 6 pts for that TD?  

This is an offensive TD. 4th down, the offense is still on the field, either to punt it away or try for the 1st down. The TD score in fantasy should go to the up back (Wilson?) that ran it in. The only D/ST on the field is the one trying to block the punt or preparing to return it.

 

[shadyridr]

This is an offensive TD. 4th down, the offense is still on the field, either to punt it away or try for the 1st down. The TD score in fantasy should go to the up back (Wilson?) that ran it in. The only D/ST on the field is the one trying to block the punt or preparing to return it.

until they punt it then they become the D/ST and the opposition becomes the O/ST

 

[Ruffrodys05]

until they punt it then they become the D/ST and the opposition becomes the O/ST

Exactly, so it was an offensive rushing TD on 4th down. No defense gets credit for that.

 

[Jayrok]

This is an offensive TD. 4th down, the offense is still on the field, either to punt it away or try for the 1st down. The TD score in fantasy should go to the up back (Wilson?) that ran it in. The only D/ST on the field is the one trying to block the punt or preparing to return it.

Punt team is a special team.  The offense wasn't on the field and the QB didn't fake the punt.  

I get what you guys are saying.  It's offense until they kick, then it's defense, etc.  That is an argument that goes way back... when a team fumbles and the other team scoops and runs for the score.. well, now that defense is on offense and the fumbling team is on defense, and on and on.  

I'm just saying if it is defense and special teams plays, then why wouldn't all special teams get credit for scoring TDs?  Maybe they could rename the category "defense and return teams."  Hell, in many scoring systems a "defense" doesn't get pts for a blocked kick/punt that results in a TD.  

 

[Jayrok]

Exactly, so it was an offensive rushing TD on 4th down. No defense gets credit for that.

I agree, the defense shouldn't get credit for it.  The KC special teams should have.  Isn't it Defense/Special Teams?  When a team receives a kickoff, they are on offense as soon as they catch the ball.  The defense doesn't get credit for any TD there.  Nor does the offense.  The special teams does.  

 

[unckeyherb]

fixed per the RT homepage blurb.  Set 1 point for each return and it gives the two points.  Dumb question, but why wouldn't the interception count?

 

[unckeyherb]

I agree, the defense shouldn't get credit for it.  The KC special teams should have.  Isn't it Defense/Special Teams?  When a team receives a kickoff, they are on offense as soon as they catch the ball.  The defense doesn't get credit for any TD there.  Nor does the offense.  The special teams does.  

It's not considered a special teams play unless someone kicks the ball.  Otherwise its an offensive play, regardless of personnel on the field.  

 

[Jayrok]

until they punt it then they become the D/ST and the opposition becomes the O/ST

In the same context as you describe, when a defensive team receives a kickoff, the kicking team actually becomes the defensive/ST and the receiving team becomes the O/ST.  Yet the defense/ST in your league gets credit for a return TD during that kickoff.  You're saying they are actually an O/ST when they receive the kick.  

 

[Jayrok]

It's not considered a special teams play unless someone kicks the ball.  Otherwise its an offensive play, regardless of personnel on the field.  

So special teams are not on the field unless the ball is kicked.  What if ATL kicks off to KC and during the return, KC tries to throw it across field like a lateral trick play and ATL intercepts and scores.  Does ATL D/ST get pts for the TD?  

 

[Ruffrodys05]

I agree, the defense shouldn't get credit for it.  The KC special teams should have.  Isn't it Defense/Special Teams?  When a team receives a kickoff, they are on offense as soon as they catch the ball.  The defense doesn't get credit for any TD there.  Nor does the offense.  The special teams does.  

    Wait, you think because the punter was in on 4th down it becomes a ST situation, regardless whether the punter actually punted the ball? Thus, if you have KC's D/ST, you accrue points, simply because the punter stepped onto the field for that offensive down and TD? Does this thinking apply to any down?

Eh, I guess folks can argue this point, but it doesn't fly with me. I do not find it to be a logical argument.

 

[Bayhawks]

So special teams are not on the field unless the ball is kicked.  What if ATL kicks off to KC and during the return, KC tries to throw it across field like a lateral trick play and ATL intercepts and scores.  Does ATL D/ST get pts for the TD?  

You said ATL kicks off, so ......... yeah

 

[Ruffrodys05]

So special teams are not on the field unless the ball is kicked.  What if ATL kicks off to KC and during the return, KC tries to throw it across field like a lateral trick play and ATL intercepts and scores.  Does ATL D/ST get pts for the TD?  

Yes.

 

[skillz]

In the same context as you describe, when a defensive team receives a kickoff, the kicking team actually becomes the defensive/ST and the receiving team becomes the O/ST.  Yet the defense/ST in your league gets credit for a return TD during that kickoff.  You're saying they are actually an O/ST when they receive the kick.  

I look at it like a fake FG.  The kicker throwing or rushing for the TD gets the points not the D/ST.  Same thing would apply here on the fake punt.  Player gets the TD not the D/ST.

 

[unckeyherb]

So special teams are not on the field unless the ball is kicked.  What if ATL kicks off to KC and during the return, KC tries to throw it across field like a lateral trick play and ATL intercepts and scores.  Does ATL D/ST get pts for the TD?  

yes

 

[Jayrok]

I'm just being devil's advocate to hear thoughts on the scenario.  Everyone here seems to agree that the defense and offense can change multiple times during any given play.  So the issue is what involves "special teams."  

What if on the fake punt, KC runs it for a first down but fumbles, ATL scoops it and head's the other way but when the ball carrier is being tackled he tries to lateral it and it's free again where a KC player catches it mid-air and runs it in for a TD.  Is that a D/ST TD for KC or just a TD for the guy who scored the TD... since the ball was never kicked?  

 

[unckeyherb]

TD for the player

 

[shadyridr]

I'm just being devil's advocate to hear thoughts on the scenario.  Everyone here seems to agree that the defense and offense can change multiple times during any given play.  So the issue is what involves "special teams."  

What if on the fake punt, KC runs it for a first down but fumbles, ATL scoops it and head's the other way but when the ball carrier is being tackled he tries to lateral it and it's free again where a KC player catches it mid-air and runs it in for a TD.  Is that a D/ST TD for KC or just a TD for the guy who scored the TD... since the ball was never kicked?  

Pretty cut and dry. Its not Special Teams until the ball is kicked. Before its kicked, its an offense and a defense out there.

 

[jomar]

my league has special language in the rules so that the D/ST gets the points for any TD when they're on the field.  there is no doubt that there was special teams personnel on the field for the KC fake punt.  its a play practiced by the special teams.  the coach who draws it up is the special teams coach.  for our league, that's a Special Teams play and they get the TD. 

same thing if a punt returner fumbles or a DB intercepts a ball but then fumbles it back to the offense, that's -1 for the D/ST. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

In my IDP I am the commish and the Eric Berry owner, so especially touchy. 

I gave it to the co-commish to handle and while I'm no thrilled with the outcome I Do think it is fair considering the circumstances.

i received the 2 points. Nothing more.  That's a "letter of the law" ruling becaue Berry actually put 2 points on the board in RL, and we've consistently made adjustments over the years for such things if a player doesn't get the score. 

But in the IDP league we usually reward "rare" plays. Like a safety = 5 points, not 2, because it's a rare/special play. Same with making a sack worth more than a tackle, etc

so this year I get the 2 points (which I don't consider a "rules change") and will put to Vote next year how much the play should be worth. 

IMO it should be worth a Int (5) + the score (2) because to do this the player presumably has to return it the length of the field. 

Same with a BPAT2 - blocked PAT is already 5, and now they'll get the 2.

While it sucks, it's totally my fault for not knowing the rules change and putting this up to vote for this season.

:(

 

[Jayrok]

my league has special language in the rules so that the D/ST gets the points for any TD when they're on the field.  there is no doubt that there was special teams personnel on the field for the KC fake punt.  its a play practiced by the special teams.  the coach who draws it up is the special teams coach.  for our league, that's a Special Teams play and they get the TD. 

I like this.  It makes it clear and differentiates actual special teams from the defense and offense (which changes depending on who's got the ball during a play).  No guessing.  Defensive scores are when the defense is on the field across from an offense.  Special teams are on the field during all other plays when the offense and defense are not on the field.  Punt team, Punt receiving team, kickoff team/kick receive team, FG unit.. all are special teams and if they score a TD, then the owner of that special team gets the 6 pts.  

Obviously, it depends on league settings and there's so much diversity there.  But I'd sign on if my league tabled this.  

 

[St. Louis Bob]

my league has special language in the rules so that the D/ST gets the points for any TD when they're on the field.  there is no doubt that there was special teams personnel on the field for the KC fake punt.  its a play practiced by the special teams.  the coach who draws it up is the special teams coach.  for our league, that's a Special Teams play and they get the TD. 

same thing if a punt returner fumbles or a DB intercepts a ball but then fumbles it back to the offense, that's -1 for the D/ST. 

That's the argument in our league but I don't agree. If the ball isn't kicked or turned over, it's an offensive play.  If the punter was put in on first down would it be a special team score?  Would love to get an official impartial ruling emailed out from @Joe Bryant

 

[Dope]

I had to change this last year in MFL

Yup me too,

Thankfully it did not matter because no one had the 2015 NOLA defense in their starting lineup.

We added that scoring play immediately for use during the rest of the 2015 season.

***As a side note, if you don't have this rule "Offensive Fumble Recovery TD" for your QB/RB/WR/TE/K will save a lot of problems if Antonio brown is stripped on the 1 yard line and he falls on it in the endzone. Technically, thats a fumble recovery TD."

 

[Dope]

That's the argument in our league but I don't agree. If the ball isn't kicked or turned over, it's an offensive play.  If the punter was put in on first down would it be a special team score?  Would love to get an official impartial ruling emailed out from @Joe Bryant

THIS. Times 1 million.

Until the ball is kicked, it's just a crazy formation.

 

[Jayrok]

"Looks like they're going to leave their offense on the field and go for this 4th down, Cotton."  

"After thinking about it over a timeout, the coach decides to send in the punt team.  Smart call there, Stew,"

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

That's the argument in our league but I don't agree. If the ball isn't kicked or turned over, it's an offensive play.  If the punter was put in on first down would it be a special team score?  Would love to get an official impartial ruling emailed out from @Joe Bryant

Technically that isn't accurate for the "pick 2" play. 

it's not an offensive play. A PAT or 2PA occurrs between plays. E.g. It is an untimed play. 

Neither offense nor defense - the play occurs on special teams, even if it's the offense executing it. It just happens that the special teams consists of normal offensive players, but they're out there playing special teams. 

I'm obviously not Joe Bryant, but I don't have a dog in your race either so I'm impartial. You'll likely get this same answer from anyone else as well. 

ETA - you seem to be talking more about the fake punt TD, which I also consider special teams. Not sure why it wouldn't be special teams - the special teams unit came out. 

If the offense went for it on 4th down, that's one thing. But for the offensive unit to leave the field and the special teams unit to come on an execute that play I think you're hard pressed to call that anything other than special teams.

 

[Dope]

So special teams are not on the field unless the ball is kicked.  What if ATL kicks off to KC and during the return, KC tries to throw it across field like a lateral trick play and ATL intercepts and scores.  Does ATL D/ST get pts for the TD?  

If Ben Roethlisberger line ups in shotgun on 4th and 3 and pooch punts it, what's the ruling?

This is why you have to take personell out of the equation and make the "act" the determining factor. If the ball is kicked, ST play, if not kicked, offensive play.

 

[Jayrok]

When a team is going for it on 4th down, but the QB drops back a couple of steps and punts... which happens often enough.. is that offense now considered a special team?  Supposing the scenario where the return guy runs, gets stripped by a player on the offense, who runs a TD.  Is it a special teams TD for the team that began on offense beginning the play.  Or is a TD for the offensive guy who stripped the ball and scored?  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

If Ben Roethlisberger line ups in shotgun on 4th and 3 and pooch punts it, what's the ruling?

This is why you have to take personell out of the equation and make the "act" the determining factor. If the ball is kicked, ST play, if not kicked, offensive play.

Perfectly stated. 

And imo especially so if the offensive unit leaves the field and the punt team runs on. 

Regardless of the trickery and shenanigans that ensue, that's a special teams play. 

 

[Jayrok]

If Ben Roethlisberger line ups in shotgun on 4th and 3 and pooch punts it, what's the ruling?

This is why you have to take personell out of the equation and make the "act" the determining factor. If the ball is kicked, ST play, if not kicked, offensive play.

I asked the same question just under your post.  

According to guys in this thread, if Pittsburgh somehow takes the ball away and scores then it is a Pittsburgh defense/ST score.  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

When a team is going for it on 4th down, but the QB drops back a couple of steps and punts... which happens often enough.. is that offense now considered a special team?

I believe so, yes. 

 Supposing the scenario where the return guy runs, gets stripped by a player on the offense, who runs a TD.  Is it a special teams TD for the team that began on offense beginning the play.  Or is a TD for the offensive guy who stripped the ball and scored?  

It is a special teams play. In the scenario you describe there is no one on offense. There's a kicking team and a returning team. 

You say "gets stripped by a player on offense" - the return guy is not being stripped by a player on offense, he's being stripped by a player on the kicking team, e.g. Special teams.



this is to the best of my knowledge - open to hearing other's opinions on it. 

 

[Jayrod]

The action of the players determines the nature of the play.  If they run an offensive play (run or forward pass), it is an offensive play.  If they kick, it is a kicking play and thus "special teams".

 

[Dope]

When a team is going for it on 4th down, but the QB drops back a couple of steps and punts... which happens often enough.. is that offense now considered a special team?  Supposing the scenario where the return guy runs, gets stripped by a player on the offense, who runs a TD.  Is it a special teams TD for the team that began on offense beginning the play.  Or is a TD for the offensive guy who stripped the ball and scored?  

When a team is going for it on 4th down, but the QB drops back a couple of steps and punts... which happens often enough..

**********Special teams Play*******************

Supposing the scenario where the return guy runs, gets stripped by a player on the offense, who runs a TD.  Is it a special teams TD for the team that began on offense beginning the play Is it a special teams TD for the team that began on offense beginning the play.  Or is a TD for the offensive guy who stripped the ball and scored?

*****************If the ball was kicked, this is a special team's play. If Big Ben pooched it and the returner got smashed and Antonio Brown picked up the fumble and went in for a TD, the points belong to the Pittsburgh D/ST. *********************************

 

[Jayrok]

Okay.. fair enough.  I think it's interesting to think about.  

 

[Dr. Octopus]

In the same context as you describe, when a defensive team receives a kickoff, the kicking team actually becomes the defensive/ST and the receiving team becomes the O/ST.  Yet the defense/ST in your league gets credit for a return TD during that kickoff.  You're saying they are actually an O/ST when they receive the kick.  

The is no Offensive Special Teams and Defensive Special Teams - it's just Special Teams. The reason a fantasy site has D/ST is because it combines team defense AND special teams.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

From MFL.com:


How do I score the 2 Point Conversion Return by the Kansas City Chiefs in Week 13?

Answer: In the Chiefs/Falcons game, the Chiefs scored 2 points as follows: The Falcons were attempting a 2-point conversion, and Matt Ryan threw an interception as part of the attempt. Eric Berry intercepted the pass and and returned it all the way back to the opposite end zone. Since this happened on a 2 point conversion attempt, it is scored as 2 points for the Chiefs. It is a new rule the NFL put in place starting in 2015. It is a very rare occurrence, but you can add this scoring rule to your fantasy league to cover this if desired. 

Note that the stats on a 2-point conversion are not counted towards a player's stats for the game (and you won't see them in any NFL box score either). The play is just considered a "successful" or "failed" 2 point conversion, so any yardage or receptions or interceptions that occur as part of a 2 point conversion attempt are not included in the regular stats for the game. 

The scoring rule is called "Defensive Conversion Returns". You can add it to your league on the Reports > Rules > League Scoring screen. To make a change, click on the (Edit) link next to the "Team Defense" Position group to add the new rule, and assign it a fantasy point value. 

Note: This is a new scoring rule that the NFL added in 2015. It happened only once last year in Week #13 of the 2015 season, when the Saints blocked an Extra Point attempt and returned it all the way for 2 points. For 2016, this is the third time it has happened. The first time it happened was in Week #2 with the Ravens against the Browns, and then it happened again in Week #10 in the Broncos/Saints game. In all of those previous instances, it happened on a blocked extra point attempt.

 

[unckeyherb]

When a team is going for it on 4th down, but the QB drops back a couple of steps and punts... which happens often enough.. is that offense now considered a special team?  Supposing the scenario where the return guy runs, gets stripped by a player on the offense, who runs a TD.  Is it a special teams TD for the team that began on offense beginning the play.  Or is a TD for the offensive guy who stripped the ball and scored?  

yes.  that is a special teams play.  assuming the return guy is fielding a kick, it is a special teams play.  

 

[unckeyherb]

I asked the same question just under your post.  

According to guys in this thread, if Pittsburgh somehow takes the ball away and scores then it is a Pittsburgh defense/ST score.  

thats correct.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

From MFL.com:


How do I score the 2 Point Conversion Return by the Kansas City Chiefs in Week 13?

Answer: In the Chiefs/Falcons game, the Chiefs scored 2 points as follows: The Falcons were attempting a 2-point conversion, and Matt Ryan threw an interception as part of the attempt. Eric Berry intercepted the pass and and returned it all the way back to the opposite end zone. Since this happened on a 2 point conversion attempt, it is scored as 2 points for the Chiefs. It is a new rule the NFL put in place starting in 2015. It is a very rare occurrence, but you can add this scoring rule to your fantasy league to cover this if desired. 

Note that the stats on a 2-point conversion are not counted towards a player's stats for the game (and you won't see them in any NFL box score either). The play is just considered a "successful" or "failed" 2 point conversion, so any yardage or receptions or interceptions that occur as part of a 2 point conversion attempt are not included in the regular stats for the game. 

The scoring rule is called "Defensive Conversion Returns". You can add it to your league on the Reports > Rules > League Scoring screen. To make a change, click on the (Edit) link next to the "Team Defense" Position group to add the new rule, and assign it a fantasy point value. 

Note: This is a new scoring rule that the NFL added in 2015. It happened only once last year in Week #13 of the 2015 season, when the Saints blocked an Extra Point attempt and returned it all the way for 2 points. For 2016, this is the third time it has happened. The first time it happened was in Week #2 with the Ravens against the Browns, and then it happened again in Week #10 in the Broncos/Saints game. In all of those previous instances, it happened on a blocked extra point attempt.

Agree with this but I think most do.  The ball changed hands so ST/D.  The TD didn't change hands though. I don't see why the personal on the field matter.  @Aaron Rudnicki  Rude, you're a D guy,  what do you think? 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Agree with this but I think most do.  The ball changed hands so ST/D.  The TD didn't change hands though. I don't see why the personal on the field matter.  @Aaron Rudnicki  Rude, you're a D guy,  what do you think? 

As others have said - it's not the personnel, it's the play.

a punt formation is a special teams play. If they pass out of the punt formation it's not an offensive play, it's considered a"punt fake" which is ST.  So it's the same as a draw from a ST formation.

a punt or FG is a ST play, regardless of what they do with it.