League is going to introduce IDP this year....help! (1 Viewer)

[jbz]

So our league has voted to incorporate IDPs this year. No one in our league has really played in one with IDPs before so we are pretty clueless on what's a good scoring system, how many to use, what positions, etc. I was thinking about starting small, like maybe just 1 DL, 1 LB and 1 DB. What is the most common/best scoring system for these positions? Ideally we'd have a system that makes the IDPs just as relevant as the offensive skill players. Our offensive scoring system has a nice balance that gets a pretty even amount of QBs/RBs/WRs in the top 20. We go 4 pts pass TD, 1 pt every 25 pass, 6 for all other TDs, 1 pt per 10 yards, .5 for rec for WR/TE, .25 for RBs, start 1 QB 2 RB 3 WR 1 TE. Any insight to getting IDPs incorporated in a league like this would be appreciated!

 

[PranksterJD]

I'm sure others will jump in here with their thoughts, but the seminal work is here.

 

[Crippler]

I would go full in year 1 especially in dynasty

My home league started out as just O about 12 years ago and after 2 years we went to do. Teams were allowed to protect 3 players from the D teams they owned and than we had a seperate D draft as we went to a full 11 man squad. Trading of picks and such was allowed and brought some interesting dynamics in the off-season with O trades also.

 

[jbz]

I'm sure others will jump in here with their thoughts, but the seminal work is here.

hey cool, thanks for that. that should be a good start. one overall question, when you guys go IDPs, to you get rid of the team defense?

 

[PranksterJD]

I'm sure others will jump in here with their thoughts, but the seminal work is here.

hey cool, thanks for that. that should be a good start. one overall question, when you guys go IDPs, to you get rid of the team defense?

and you'll love it.

 

[jbz]

cool. should be a big change to get rid of team defenses, not sure if my league is gonna freak out

 

[Jene Bramel]

Here's a copy of part of a post I made in a thread in the FAQ.

In general, the best way to set up an IDP league correctly from the beginning IMO...

Step 1: Decide how much you want IDPs (in general) to be worth. Do you want them equal to offensive players in value? 60-40 off/def split? 55-45? Do you want a top LB to equal a mid RB1/WR1 or a RB2?

Step 2: Decide what type of IDP you want valued. Do you want a big play league where sacks, fumble plays, and coverage stats are rewarded highly? Do you want a league where steady tacklers are favored? Would you prefer a balanced approach?

Step 3: Decide how deep an IDP league you want. Do you want to start just a couple players at a couple positions or a full 11 man defense? Do you want a more advanced system with DT and CB broken into separate positions?

Step 4: Decide if you want the DL/LB/DB positions roughly equal in value or staggered a bit like the QB/RB/WR/TE position and what the relative values should be.

Step 5: Make a sham MFL league and play with the scoring system until you get a system where the players are ranked in relative value within and across positions where you want them. You could play with Excel spreadsheets after downloading stats, but MFL may be easier.

I think it's very important to decide exactly what you want out of the IDPs in your league early. Changing lineups, scoring system, etc after the first player acquisition period is really tough to do.Leagues using just 1 IDP per position are fine, but you'll quickly find that there isn't a huge amount of difference between the top player at each of those positions and the 12th. So you may not get much separation between the "best" IDP owners and the "middle of the road" IDP owners. If that's the only way to get your leaguemates to okay the transition, then go with it. If not, many leagues will use 2 DE, 3 LB and 3 DBs. Some use a full 11 man starting lineup using five separate positions.

Setting up an MFL league and playing with the settings is a great way to see how your top 30, top 50 and top 100 shakes out and if your relative player values are what you want.

Good luck and welcome to IDP.

 

[Tick]

My suggestions:

1. Figure out if you want to separate DBs into CB/S, and whether you want to separate out DL into DE/DT.

2. Pick a number of starters. I like Jene's suggestion of 2/3/3 if you're rolling the positions together. Or, you could go with 2/2/2 with two flex IDPs. 1/1/1 just doesn't add much IMO.

3. Pick a scoring system. For simplicity, it might be best to use FBG's standard IDP scoring.

Ask here if you have specific questions - this is a good forum.

 

[jbz]

thanks everyone. i'm going to do a lot of reading tonight and then i'll come back with some questions most likely. great stuff

 

[jbz]

looking at some common scoring systems for IDPs, it seems LBs are certainly the king. i've tweaked it a bit and cut tackles in half and bumped up passes defended and sacks. the result on projections results in a nice mix of DL/LB/DBs instead of all LBs dominating the top 25 IDPs. any other ways to de-value the LB?

 

[Crippler]

Probably no other way as LB's are tackle monsters in the end. They usually if good get a little of everything so you just setup your scoring by what you want to see in the end.

 

[guncrib]

looking at some common scoring systems for IDPs, it seems LBs are certainly the king. i've tweaked it a bit and cut tackles in half and bumped up passes defended and sacks. the result on projections results in a nice mix of DL/LB/DBs instead of all LBs dominating the top 25 IDPs. any other ways to de-value the LB?

Dont even try. Making LB's less studly would be like trying to reduce an RB's role in O. The problem with increasing Sack values to get linemen involved is that it just makes the stud LB's even more so. The top 25 may show more DL's and DB's in the mix but it usually doesnt really pan out that way in real life. Sacks are hit and miss as are Pass defendeds. The managers that catch on to the IDP system first will dominate the D board and I cant see how that will please the other managers. Better to seperate the DL's into linemen and LB's.

 

[jbz]

my league has actually tried to reduce the RBs overall value as well and it's worked out nicely. everyone is happy with the balance and our top 20 players are a nice mix of all the positions (outside of kickers ) I see what you're saying about the sacks and there's naturally going to be one position more dominant then the other.

 

[Jene Bramel]

my league has actually tried to reduce the RBs overall value as well and it's worked out nicely. everyone is happy with the balance and our top 20 players are a nice mix of all the positions (outside of kickers ) I see what you're saying about the sacks and there's naturally going to be one position more dominant then the other.

You can normalize the relative value of each position by giving each position different points for each defensive stat. That gets complicated, though, and I didn't suggest it earlier because it looked like you wanted to keep things simple during the transition. But you can give DL more tackle points and DB more PD points and do graded points for sack and INT/FR return yardage to bring the DL/LB/DB positions closer together.

 

[jbz]

yeah, maybe i'm overthinking this? it's pretty exciting to be adding this big new facet to my league. i know sportsline allows us to make special scoring for each position. maybe i'll tweak that stuff tonight and test the scoring out. do you prefer to have your IDPs worth equal to the offensive players or less? you listed that as the first thing to figure out and i was wondering what was common place in the IDP world?

also, let me know if this is a crazy idea. since none of us in my league have used IDPs before, we were thinking of having a separate offensive and defensive draft. this would just be for this initial year since none of us have done it before and we don't really know the relative value the IDPs have in comparison to our offensive players. stupid idea?

 

[Tick]

I would recommend against split drafts. Just as it is in the offensive positions, the most interesting thing to see isn't how people rank players within a position... it's how they rank players of different positions. Throwing in IDPs to a normal draft is great - you get someone taking a LB in the third round, others starting to wonder if they should take one in the fifth, a huge run in the 8th... it's fun to watch IMO and exciting to draft something totally new like that.

I don't like big play scoring systems because I don't feel like they're very predictable. It's a personal preference thing, though. I would prefer to devalue LBs through starting requirements - 3 DL, 2 LB, 4 DB would be an example that would devalue the LBs pretty heavily.

 

[Jene Bramel]

yeah, maybe i'm overthinking this? it's pretty exciting to be adding this big new facet to my league. i know sportsline allows us to make special scoring for each position. maybe i'll tweak that stuff tonight and test the scoring out. do you prefer to have your IDPs worth equal to the offensive players or less? you listed that as the first thing to figure out and i was wondering what was common place in the IDP world?also, let me know if this is a crazy idea. since none of us in my league have used IDPs before, we were thinking of having a separate offensive and defensive draft. this would just be for this initial year since none of us have done it before and we don't really know the relative value the IDPs have in comparison to our offensive players. stupid idea?

I'm with Tick. Split drafts take away from the strategy (and fun) of having to fill so many starting slots.To me, if you're going to do IDP, do it. I understand the desire to have offensive players be the headliners, so a 55-45 mix is okay. Some of the most competitive IDP leagues are the Zealot Field leagues. People love those leagues and they're close to 60-40 offense-defense value. Everything is relative of course, but it gets difficult for the IDPs to have an impact on your bottom line if a stud IDP is no better than a mid-level WR3 or RB2. Trades involving both sides of the ball are more difficult. There's less relative value between the best IDPs and the replacement level players.

 

[jbz]

good responses as usual guys. Tick brings up a great point about having just one draft and how different owners will value the IDPs differently. I like that twist.

regarding the relative value of IDPs to offensive players, in the end I don't think it really matters how they compare against each other. Reason being is we will all be required to start X amount of DL, LB and DBs so we're still competing with each other on that level. So if our scoring system makes the top LBs score the same as a #3 WR, the LBs still have value because it's required to start 3 for everyone. I like that. I guess I have to just slow down and think about this and keep asking you guys questions since your answers kinda shine the light and make me see things better

Thanks fellas. You'll be seeing me in here a lot more often this season

 

[guncrib]

One more thing. If you're the only one in your league that uses Football guys, you're gonna kill them. One article on the HAVE to read list is the Eye of the Guru. John Norton is a friggin genius when it somes to IDP's. I'm still waiting for his NFC post. Do NOT make the mistake I did a few years back and leave the print-out laying around where anyone can see it.

 

[jbz]

thanks, i'll make note of it

another question for anyone, let's say you got Mike Vrabel and he scores an offensive TD, those points should count for him right?

 

[DanFouts]

So our league has voted to incorporate IDPs this year. No one in our league has really played in one with IDPs before so we are pretty clueless on what's a good scoring system, how many to use, what positions, etc. I was thinking about starting small, like maybe just 1 DL, 1 LB and 1 DB. What is the most common/best scoring system for these positions? Ideally we'd have a system that makes the IDPs just as relevant as the offensive skill players. Our offensive scoring system has a nice balance that gets a pretty even amount of QBs/RBs/WRs in the top 20. We go 4 pts pass TD, 1 pt every 25 pass, 6 for all other TDs, 1 pt per 10 yards, .5 for rec for WR/TE, .25 for RBs, start 1 QB 2 RB 3 WR 1 TE. Any insight to getting IDPs incorporated in a league like this would be appreciated!

We are just converting one of our leagues to IDP...in the midst of IDP inaugural draft now...will follow with Rookie/FA draft next, then go back to the full draft (offense/IDP) next year...here is our draft FYI...http://football27.myfantasyleague.com/2008...=16798&O=17

 

[Tick]

thanks, i'll make note of it another question for anyone, let's say you got Mike Vrabel and he scores an offensive TD, those points should count for him right?

I would sure hope so - it depends on how you set up your scoring and how flexible your league management site is. You'll also need to figure out whether players get points for punt and kickoff returns. I suggest doing it - it makes for another interesting wrinkle when you can get a CB who returns kicks and you have to figure out how useful that is. It can also do some interesting things on offense, for example make Nate Burleson an interesting player.There are also FG returns (Cromartie), offensive fumble recoveries... goofy plays are hard to predict, it's nice if you have a common scoring system for all players that covers everything since you never know when a QB is going to get a pass batted back to him and run it in for a TD or something equally odd.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

So our league has voted to incorporate IDPs this year. No one in our league has really played in one with IDPs before so we are pretty clueless on what's a good scoring system, how many to use, what positions, etc. I was thinking about starting small, like maybe just 1 DL, 1 LB and 1 DB. What is the most common/best scoring system for these positions? Ideally we'd have a system that makes the IDPs just as relevant as the offensive skill players. Our offensive scoring system has a nice balance that gets a pretty even amount of QBs/RBs/WRs in the top 20. We go 4 pts pass TD, 1 pt every 25 pass, 6 for all other TDs, 1 pt per 10 yards, .5 for rec for WR/TE, .25 for RBs, start 1 QB 2 RB 3 WR 1 TE. Any insight to getting IDPs incorporated in a league like this would be appreciated!

to the fun of IDP.You're well on your way with this thread and finding FBG. There's really no better place to learn of it and learn IDP well. Enjoy the fun of watching a game with players on both sides of the ball.

 

[teeman11]

So our league has voted to incorporate IDPs this year. No one in our league has really played in one with IDPs before so we are pretty clueless on what's a good scoring system, how many to use, what positions, etc. I was thinking about starting small, like maybe just 1 DL, 1 LB and 1 DB. What is the most common/best scoring system for these positions? Ideally we'd have a system that makes the IDPs just as relevant as the offensive skill players. Our offensive scoring system has a nice balance that gets a pretty even amount of QBs/RBs/WRs in the top 20. We go 4 pts pass TD, 1 pt every 25 pass, 6 for all other TDs, 1 pt per 10 yards, .5 for rec for WR/TE, .25 for RBs, start 1 QB 2 RB 3 WR 1 TE. Any insight to getting IDPs incorporated in a league like this would be appreciated!

I'm in the same boat and this thread has helped greatly. This is what I'm looking to do.Step 1: Decide how much you want IDPs (in general) to be worth. Do you want them equal to offensive players in value? 60-40 off/def split? 55-45? Do you want a top LB to equal a mid RB1/WR1 or a RB2?

I like to try and keep the positions pretty close to each other scoring wise.

Step 2: Decide what type of IDP you want valued. Do you want a big play league where sacks, fumble plays, and coverage stats are rewarded highly? Do you want a league where steady tacklers are favored? Would you prefer a balanced approach?

Like above, I'm going for move of a balanced approach

Step 3: Decide how deep an IDP league you want. Do you want to start just a couple players at a couple positions or a full 11 man defense? Do you want a more advanced system with DT and CB broken into separate positions?

I'm thinking of the keeping to positions together DE, LB, DB. I was orignally thinking of 1 of each with a flex but now I'm leaning more towards 2 of each with 2 flex.

Step 4: Decide if you want the DL/LB/DB positions roughly equal in value or staggered a bit like the QB/RB/WR/TE position and what the relative values should be.

Like above, I'm going to try and keep them closer to equal value.

Step 5: Make a sham MFL league and play with the scoring system until you get a system where the players are ranked in relative value within and across positions where you want them. You could play with Excel spreadsheets after downloading stats, but MFL may be easier.

Have been playing with a few excel sheets to try and balance everything out. Here's what I've come up with, let me know what you think.

First of the bascis for my offense is 1 for 20 passing, 4 per TD -2 per Int. 1 for 10 rushing, 1 for 7 receiving, 6 per TD. It's pretty basic with a tweak to bring WR up a little, not a fan pf PPR. So for the IDP's I'm thinking 1 per Assist, 2 per tackle, 6 per TD, 3 per FF and FR, 2 per sack and Int, and 1 per Pass defended. Again I think this is pretty basic but he's the tweaks to level out the scoring. I bumped DE sacks to 4(+2) and tackles to 3(+1) and DB get 5(+3) per Int and 4(+3) per Pass defended.

With this scoring the numbers shake out like this for the top 24 for each position. Please let me know what you think.

QB RB WR TE LB DB DL

350.95 299.99 262.54 174.46 280 238 237

341.7 275.66 240.26 167.74 266 236 238

307.5 260.94 242.08 161.88 257 233 213

297 242.76 248.38 163.66 254 233 213

269.85 215.84 236.78 156.34 251 228 200

275.4 209.02 235.48 133.02 239 233 187

253.8 202.22 228.7 135.28 236 226 187

260.1 198.58 218.62 134.62 231 223 188

254.15 188.76 220.54 133.56 227 218 185

242.85 206.72 226.76 122.52 224 217 187

234.3 200.56 211.86 109.16 224 214 186

249.75 187.44 206.54 102.68 222 206 183

231.9 179.04 206.08 108.94 215 198 180

227.15 188.46 192.96 97.34 223 201 178

236.15 182.7 189.22 87.98 222 198 176

226.35 175.24 184.68 88.64 224 203 177

225.2 164.74 169.54 97.04 226 198 171

213.7 158.88 168.92 84.96 223 197 175

231.5 164.82 170.76 89.86 215 196 169

221.45 157.2 161.12 88.06 211 196 177

222.4 159.82 158.28 88.06 214 193 171

203.55 153.04 170.74 71.56 209 194 161

204.1 156.32 156.84 69.94 196 196 160

194.9 157.2 161.74 72.74 196 194 157

173.3 157.52 157.9 74.28 198 195 160

I can't figure out how to paste the table so it's readable, but you get the idea.