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LeSean McCoy (1 Viewer)

barackdhouse said:
Yeah the 9 spot. I took Thomas first and OBJ second. Carson 3 Monty 4 Ingram 5. I love the Saints FF playoff schedule. 
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In my FFPC drafted 8th spot.  De.Adams. Tyreek, Da.Freeman, Ingram, T. Coleman.  Monty went  early 3rd rd.   Our strategy was the same & I like the start we both had.

good luck.

 
Nick Vermeil said:
So who has him in the lineup week 1? 

8 carries 40 yards, 1td. 
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I think you'd have to be pretty desperate to start him week 1....sure he could surprise but I certainly wouldn't expect much from a guy that just came over.  I'd take a wait and see approach if you can afford it.

 
Banger said:
I think you'd have to be pretty desperate to start him week 1....sure he could surprise but I certainly wouldn't expect much from a guy that just came over.  I'd take a wait and see approach if you can afford it.
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I doubt he even sees the field. 

 
SCT said:
That’s like going to a car lot and buying the $80,000 truck because it is technically possible for you to make it happen financially if you really want to.  But then your brain thinks “well that’s crazy.  I can get this $35,000 truck and it’s pretty nice too.”   It’s foolish to think the salary wasn’t a factor for the bills. Do you think they cut him if they could keep him for 3?
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If he were still performing at a high level,  would they have signed gore and yeldon and followed up with a day two pick on Singletary?  

I think it's reasonable to infer that they saw a decline in his play - not just his ypc - and that they invested pretty heavily at the position in response 

If they knew they were cutting him days before week1, why give him so many useful reps when they're bringing in 3 different new guys?

I think it's reasonable to infer that he wasn't just a cap casualty.  They gave him a chance in training camp and either he didn't play that well, or the other 3 did. 

So that gives us a range of outcomes.  If he was still playing like pro bowl McCoy, they'd probably have kept him.  If he was playing well behind a bad line last year but just not getting blocking, they probably wouldn't have invested in two veteran free agent signings and an early draft pick. There's a reason teams act. We also know he looked ok in the third preseason game.  So he's not zero percent of his old self, and not 100. 

We know the bills used him a bunch in the third preseason game and then tried to trade him.  That suggests they thought someone else might be interested.  

But nobody traded for him.  And we know at least the Texans and one other team were potentially on the trade market for a running back.  That suggests that other people saw what the bills saw - a guy who wasn't worth the money he was getting paid.

I think it's reasonable to deduce that the NFL consensus is that he's nowhere near what he used to be. Which is something we should all expect, based on his age and his declining performance. 

I think it's reasonable to deduce that Reid doesn't want to give Williams 20 carries a game. They named him starter, but they signed a veteran backup and talked about more of a committee approach.  Anti Williams folks assumed that was confirmation that Williams sucked, but it may have just been confirmation that they want to limit his touches. Because they see what we see - a guy who has never had more than his 85 touches last year.  

So the questions now are "is McCoy good enough to play well in KC", "does Reid intend to give McCoy the opportunity to even compete for 1A carries (regardless of who 1A is)", and "is McCoy actually better than Williams or Thompson right now?".

I see a lot of people who have been beating the "Williams is a JAG" drum all off season answering that first question with an emphatic Yes. 

But i don't see a lot of critical analysis of the other questions.  And i am doing my best to be objective because i own a little McCoy and a little Williams and have people interested in both.  I was scared when i first heard the news that Williams had lost all value or that McCoy was going to get stuck in a garbage rbbc. But I've gone through everything and made up my mind. I just sold McCoy and 2 years of Royce for 2 years of Michel in a contract keeper, and turned down an offer i don't want to make public for Williams.  I'm making offers for Williams at anything up to a roughly 4th round redraft pick value where he's one of several guys i feel like has got rb1 potential.  

I would love to hear contradictory opinions that didn't boil down to "i think McCoy is better than his numbers" and "Williams is a JAG" but I'm just not seeing that here or in other forums.  That might mean that people are going off emotion instead of facts.  

 
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humpback said:
That is cash. His cap hit was due to be just over $9 mm (they are eating just under $3 mm in dead cap by releasing him).
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Is there a consensus place to check these numbers? We're all in the ballpark but can't find consensus. 

The way I read overthecap.com indicates it was $7mil cash owed and $7mil cap hit.

 
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Banger said:
I think you'd have to be pretty desperate to start him week 1....sure he could surprise but I certainly wouldn't expect much from a guy that just came over.  I'd take a wait and see approach if you can afford it.
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It's also at Jacksonville which isn't an ideal matchup if everything that seems true about that defense plays out on the field.

ETA: FWIW I am starting Damien Although the matchup, McCoy signing and comments by Coach Flores in Miami have me tempted to start Kenyan Drake.

 
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bostonfred said:
I would love to hear contradictory opinions that didn't boil down to "i think McCoy is better than his numbers" and "Williams is a JAG" but I'm just not seeing that here or in other forums.  That might mean that people are going off emotion instead of facts.  
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I think you're reading a lot of tea leaves to arrive at your conclusion. I don't know what the Bills were doing, or what they were thinking, but I don't know it matters. They aren't exactly renowned for their decisions.

One thing is certain though, McCoy isn't worth 6m. Nobody denies that. And what team will give up anything just overpay said player? Nobody. So lack of a trade partner, in context doesn't tell us much. 

So then the Bills cut the poor guy. After that, he signed in less than 24 hours. Something of a hot commodity. Multiple teams were interested. Sort of puts the Bills opinion of him in perspective.

The contract McCoy signed pays him more than the one Williams signed. So there's that. 

 
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bostonfred said:
So the questions now are "is McCoy good enough to play well in KC", "does Reid intend to give McCoy the opportunity to even compete for 1A carries (regardless of who 1A is)", and "is McCoy actually better than Williams or Thompson right now?".

I see a lot of people who have been beating the "Williams is a JAG" drum all off season answering that first question with an emphatic Yes. 

But i don't see a lot of critical analysis of the other questions.  And i am doing my best to be objective because i own a little McCoy and a little Williams and have people interested in both.  I was scared when i first heard the news that Williams had lost all value or that McCoy was going to get stuck in a garbage rbbc. But I've gone through everything and made up my mind. I just sold McCoy and 2 years of Royce for 2 years of Michel in a contract keeper, and turned down an offer i don't want to make public for Williams.  I'm making offers for Williams at anything up to a roughly 4th round redraft pick value where he's one of several guys i feel like has got rb1 potential.  

I would love to hear contradictory opinions that didn't boil down to "i think McCoy is better than his numbers" and "Williams is a JAG" but I'm just not seeing that here or in other forums.  That might mean that people are going off emotion instead of facts.  
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I think you're on the right track.

I think they are confident in Williams, see him as an excellent fit for their offense, but they didn't want him backed up by a 6th round rookie.

So they make a very logical move - bring in a vet, who knows Andy well, and has a similar skill set - can catch and run well, knows how to read an o-line and the holes.

But Shady isn't Shady anymore, so I think he's there for support and a break-the-glass emergency. He will definitely spell Williams - just not sure how much?  10-15 carries a game?

I have no idea where this leaves Thompson. Obviously they weren't ready to rely on him in a potential Super Bowl season. Can't blame them.

 
Chaka said:
Is there a consensus place to check these numbers? We're all in the ballpark but can't find consensus. 

The way I read overthecap.com indicates it was $7mil cash owed and $7mil cap hit.
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Generally I use spotrac.com, but they tend to remove the old information as soon as a player gets cut, traded, etc. However, several articles reference the numbers of $6.175 mil cash and roughly $9 mil cap hit if they would have kept him.

 
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humpback said:
Generally I use spotrac.com, but they tend to remove the old information as soon as a player gets cut, traded, etc. However, several articles reference the numbers of $6.175 mil cash and roughly $9 mil cap hit if they would have kept him.
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I found the same issue with spotrac which is why I switched to overthecap. On the player pages you can find their contract history broken down by team, year, salary paid and cap hit to the team.

They say $33mil of $40mil paid out by Buffalo and $33mil of $40mil in cap hit.

 
Chaka said:
I found the same issue with spotrac which is why I switched to overthecap. On the player pages you can find their contract history broken down by team, year, salary paid and cap hit to the team.

They say $33mil of $40mil paid out by Buffalo and $33mil of $40mil in cap hit.
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Not sure how accurate that is (maybe it includes the dead cap hit?). I know the numbers I gave are what spotrac had listed prior to the purge, and they match up with the articles I linked and every other one I've seen. Every thing I've read says they took a dead cap hit of $2.875 mil and saved $6.175 mil by releasing him, which totals just over $9 mil.

 
No way he would be in my lineup week 1. I'm still not even sure he'll have more than flex value by the end of the year. But I still picked him up off waivers just because he's in Kansas City, and that alone makes him a better prospect than the 5th RB I drafted. If things works out he could be big of course. 

 
Well, they do play the Jags, which I think a lot of people are overlooking a bit.  Perhaps this is a situation where Williams is the starter and they struggle and next week we see it differently.  Or maybe Williams does very well against what should be a good test and just runs with it.   In other words, maybe it becomes a hot hand/opportunity situation.

 
Shutout said:
Well, they do play the Jags, which I think a lot of people are overlooking a bit.  Perhaps this is a situation where Williams is the starter and they struggle and next week we see it differently.  Or maybe Williams does very well against what should be a good test and just runs with it.   In other words, maybe it becomes a hot hand/opportunity situation.
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Yeah the matchup is unfortunate, but also an opportunity.

I think all us Williams/McCoy owners hope Reid and the KC staff won't react to a bad outing by either by making them an afterthought.  But that's not Reid's M.O.

 
Chaka said:
Yeah the matchup is unfortunate, but also an opportunity.

I think all us Williams/McCoy owners hope Reid and the KC staff won't react to a bad outing by either by making them an afterthought.  But that's not Reid's M.O.
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Andy may pass the ball 60 times

 
I think people are greatly undervaluing Shady.  That offense was horrendous last year in Buffalo.  Prior to last year, Shady had been very consistent.  

I think they released him because that was the only way he could end up in KC or Phili.  I think they did it for him because he has been a good soldier.  

I think he will play out of his mind for Reid because this may be his last shot at a championship.  Never underestimate his heart.  I think Shady will be the starter by mid season. 

 
Gambled in the 6th to get him. Have Elliott, Carson and the Denver backfield locked up. Will wait and see. He was one of the game changers to me. Just upside. If I strike out OK. But if I hit...

 
If Shady takes this job outright I'll be surprised but not shocked.  Think he was brought in for veteran depth and timeshare role, percentages tbd based on performance and gamescript.  I could be seeing this through the eyes of a Williams/Thompson owner who wasn't willing to spend the capital to own all 3 (Shady went in the 6th in my draft which I think is crazy), but this is just going to have to play out.  Will be fun to watch whatever happens, total crapshoot right now.  After a few games we should see how Reid sees this.....:stating the obvious I know.

 
Chaka said:
That was my benchmark, and I totally agree. 
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Credit is where credit is due. I have Williams in a fun league I care about. I hope you're right. I traded for McCoy in that league for Breida before Breida was named 1A (EVEN THO I KNEW HE WOULD BE) making me:

a) impetuous

b) fatuous

c) tempestuous

d) all of the above

 
Encumbrance said:
I've seen Damien go from late first to early fifth in my drafts. It's crazy the speculation and capital one has to or might spend to get him. 
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He is completely entrenched in my wild card region.  I'd love to get him in the 8th round.  I thought he was a 5th rounder before the LeSean McCoy signing.  Andy Reid didn't pay McCoy 4 million buckaroos to win an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor.  LeSean is old so he could get hurt.  But he has been very healthy in his career.   And Darwin might have already surpassed Damien.

 
Don Hutson said:
He is completely entrenched in my wild card region.  I'd love to get him in the 8th round.  I thought he was a 5th rounder before the LeSean McCoy signing.  Andy Reid didn't pay McCoy 4 million buckaroos to win an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor.  LeSean is old so he could get hurt.  But he has been very healthy in his career.   And Darwin might have already surpassed Damien.
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Pretty much all of that is ignorant as hell. 

 
Don Hutson said:
He is completely entrenched in my wild card region.  I'd love to get him in the 8th round.  I thought he was a 5th rounder before the LeSean McCoy signing.  Andy Reid didn't pay McCoy 4 million buckaroos to win an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor.  LeSean is old so he could get hurt.  But he has been very healthy in his career.   And Darwin might have already surpassed Damien.
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Don Hutson said:
Support what you are saying.  Otherwise you aren't saying anything.
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McCoy is being paid 4M because that’s what the market demands for him. It’s comparable to other aging vet contracts. Comparing vet contracts with young player salaries is ignorant. Not to mention the Chiefs upped DWill’s salary in the offseason to reflect his improved performance and subsequent increased value to the organization. 

Also, Darwin never even came close to sniffing the starting RB position so that’s completely out of left field and laughable. 

 
ATB said:
McCoy is being paid 4M because that’s what the market demands for him. It’s comparable to other aging vet contracts. Comparing vet contracts with young player salaries is ignorant. Not to mention the Chiefs upped DWill’s salary in the offseason to reflect his improved performance and subsequent increased value to the organization. 

Also, Darwin never even came close to sniffing the starting RB position so that’s completely out of left field and laughable. 
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LeSean is being paid the 19th highest amount for a running back.  That is starter money.  And he got it in late August when teams will pay less.  Right now LeSean is 1A and Damien is 1B.  And the fact that the Chiefs jumped on McCoy might mean they aren't happy with Williams.

 
Don Hutson said:
LeSean is being paid the 19th highest amount for a running back.  That is starter money.  And he got it in late August when teams will pay less.  Right now LeSean is 1A and Damien is 1B.  And the fact that the Chiefs jumped on McCoy might mean they aren't happy with Williams.
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There are 7 backups being paid more than McCoy right now, so no, again, you’re exposing your ignorance.

Picking up McCoy could mean a lot of things but Occams Razor would suggest it’s more likely due to history with Reid and a lack of depth at the position. 

 
ATB said:
There are 7 backups being paid more than McCoy right now, so no, again, you’re exposing your ignorance.

Picking up McCoy could mean a lot of things but Occams Razor would suggest it’s more likely due to history with Reid and a lack of depth at the position. 
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It is true that a bunch of passing down backs are in the top 20 of salary.  It is a passing league.  LeSean McCoy did not come to the Chiefs to be a 3rd down back.  And Andy Reid has no history of paying backups big money.

 
Don Hutson said:
It is true that a bunch of passing down backs are in the top 20 of salary.  It is a passing league.  LeSean McCoy did not come to the Chiefs to be a 3rd down back.  And Andy Reid has no history of paying backups big money.
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Then you’re exposing that this is all wishful thinking on your part. You don’t know wtf McCoy came to the Chiefs to be or do beyond winning a ring. 

 
ATB said:
Then you’re exposing that this is all wishful thinking on your part. You don’t know wtf McCoy came to the Chiefs to be or do beyond winning a ring. 
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I do not.  And you do not know Andy Reid's intentions either.  The circumstantial evidence would indicate that LeSean will have a big role once he is acclimated.

 
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Don Hutson said:
I do not.  And you do not know Andy Reid's intentions either.  The circumstantial evidence would indicate that LeSean will have a big role once he is acclimated.
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No one is arguing he won’t be used. You’re arguing he’s the starter and the main attraction in the running game because he’s being paid more, which is flat ignorance.

By your rationale, the Bengals should be starting Giovanni Bernard over Mixon too, since he’s paid so much more and all...

 
ATB said:
No one is arguing he won’t be used. You’re arguing he’s the starter and the main attraction in the running game because he’s being paid more, which is flat ignorance.

By your rationale, the Bengals should be starting Giovanni Bernard over Mixon too, since he’s paid so much more and all...
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Mixon is on a rookie salary based on the rookie pay scale.  The Bengals did not have the option to pay him more than the CBA dictated.  And it takes 3 years in the league to get a second contract again according to the CBA.  It is literally impossible for Mixon to be paid more than he is right now.  Next offseason, Mixon's contract will dwarf Bernard's.  Everything is speculation right now the Chiefs, but McCoy is likely to have a more prominent role than Williams.

 
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Don Hutson said:
Mixon is on a rookie salary based on the rookie pay scale.  The Bengals did not have the option to pay him more than the CBA dictated.  And it takes 3 years in the league to get a second contract again according to the CBA.  It is literally impossible for Mixon to be paid more than he is right now.  Next offseason, Mixon's contract will dwarf Bernard's.  Everything is speculation right now the Chiefs, but McCoy is likely to have a more prominent role than Williams.
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No #### but the point is that context is king. DWill is not Mixon, duh, but he is perfect for KC’s system. Funny how you ignored Bernard’s high salary. He and McCoy are serviceable backups who demand a high salary at this point in their careers. 

 
Don Hutson said:
LeSean is being paid the 19th highest amount for a running back.  That is starter money.  And he got it in late August when teams will pay less.  Right now LeSean is 1A and Damien is 1B.  And the fact that the Chiefs jumped on McCoy might mean they aren't happy with Williams.
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If they weren't happy with Williams they would have done something, anything that suggested so at some point during the off-season.

They signed Carlos Hyde who is on his fifth team in under 2.5 years and spent a 6th round draft pick. Good coaches don't wait until final roster cuts to address urgent roster needs.

Rex Burkhead, Theo Riddick and Jalen Richard are all getting $3mil/year. They have value but not as lead backs. If the starters in front of them were injured their role would not change.

Tevin Coleman is getting $3.6mil, if (when) Breida, who has a salary of $640k, gets injured I would expect him to assume the 1a role.  That seems like the more likely high water mark expectation for McCoy at this point.

Calling McCoy the presumptive starter feels like wishful thinking at this point. IMO Williams will get his 15 +/- touches, that reasonable people should have expected to begin with in an Andy Reid offense, every week.

I think that leaves plenty of opportunity for McCoy to get a lot of touches as well depending on how Reid's game plan unfolds.

 
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Don Hutson said:
Mixon is on a rookie salary based on the rookie pay scale.  The Bengals did not have the option to pay him more than the CBA dictated.  And it takes 3 years in the league to get a second contract again according to the CBA.  It is literally impossible for Mixon to be paid more than he is right now.  Next offseason, Mixon's contract will dwarf Bernard's.  Everything is speculation right now the Chiefs, but McCoy is likely to have a more prominent role than Williams.
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Yes, tenure impacts minimum salary. I think we all understand that. McCoy is getting paid as a successful 10 year veteran, he's earned it. Other teams may have wanted him as well, rumor is the Chargers (at the very least) so keeping him away from other teams also factored into his price tag.

I don't think anyone is saying he's done, there are plenty of opportunities in this offense that are worthy of a Burkhead type salary who, incidentally isn't a passing down back, that don't automatically place McCoy as the lead back on this team.

 
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FTR I drafted Williams but by no means do I consider him to be a lock to maintain the RB1 role he has unquestionably held since the Hunt release. McCoy could very well usurp him, and I am trying to figure out how to acquire him.

But, nothing has happened to this point to suggest Williams's role has changed.

As I said in the Williams thread, if nothing else I think we can all agree that McCoy is a clear upgrade over Hyde.

 
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Chaka said:
FTR I drafted Williams but by no means do I consider him to be a lock to maintain the RB1 role he has unquestionably held since the Hunt release. McCoy could very well usurp him, and I am trying to figure out how to acquire him.

But, nothing has happened to this point to suggest Williams's role has changed.

As I said in the Williams thread, if nothing else I think we can all agree that McCoy is a clear upgrade over Hyde.
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He will remain the RB1 for them, but something has changed in that the coaches are indicating more of a RB by committee role than before.  Week one will be almost entirely Williams, but McCoy will soon start getting about 8-10 touches a game assuming McCoy still has it.  Neither McCoy or the coaches have any fantasy about a 31-year old back being their workhorse. 

 
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jon_mx said:
He will remain the RB1 for them, but something has changed in that the coaches are indicating more of a RB by committee role than before.  Week one will be almost entirely Williams, but McCoy will soon start getting about 8-10 touches a game assuming McCoy still has it.  Neither McCoy or the coaches have any fantasy about a 31-year old back being their workhorse. 
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I am not sure where anyone else landed in their projections for Williams but I always assumed other backs would be getting at least 8-10 touches per week.  I never considered Williams to be a RB who dominated the touches for his team like Barkley or McCaffrey. Those type of backs are very rare.

 
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